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View Full Version : What to do about disjunction? (3.5/pathfinder)?



theMycon
2009-07-05, 11:37 PM
Relevant info: Currently level 14, should be 16/17 at end, most characters've been with the part since 5 or so.
Pathfinder stuff is always allowed, core is allowed-unless-overruled-by-pathfinder, completes/MiC/SpellCompendium are "usually fine", but need okayed.

We are made of:
VoP Cleric (obviously, would barely care if she got disjunctioned. Vows of Peace/Nonviolence, too.)
Transmuter wizard (barred necromancy and... I forget. But barred in Pathfinder aren't really barred anyway)
Mysteriously Effective Monk (Would be hurt most by disjunction, but has a fabulous will save)
"Wipe out the main BBEG's race" ranger (will be hurt most by disjunction, because he's the only one without a good will save)

My DM is a very nice man. He does not do stuff like this on us often. However, we're running a Pathfinder module, and (on top of most every battle being CR of lvl+3), it occasionally instructs him to throw in a nasty, nasty trick. My favorite was the Exploding dragon, where, after it threw an at-least-adult dragon at us level 9 folk... it exploded upon death, doing 20d6 damage (reflex half). Being a monk, I was entirely unharmed, and the wizzzard was safely out of range, but no-one else was happy about it.

We know the final boss is a ridiculously high-level cleric who has an at-least-18 sorceress as a flunky (she's dropped a wish as a "dispell the macguffin & your PC-made backup plan, too") I, personally, suspect the final battle will be done in as nasty of circumstances as possible. It's my understanding that disjunction auto-dispells any existing buffs/suppresses magic items, and then you make the will save to see if they turn into regular items & a pile of regeants.

SO... What can we do?
If this happens early battle we don't have time to rebuff
Retreating may not be an option (cleric could dimensional lock)
Spell Immunity only cover up to level 8.
Contingency gets dispelled, too.
My SR doesn't matter at all.
Fighting inside an anti-magic field isn't attractive, though it's probably to our advantage. I can probably grapple the sorc, at least, and once we kill her we don't have to worry about disjunction.
Ignoring it is... definitely in character for me, but stupid, and probably out-of-character to the rest.

That's all I can think of. Anyone have any ways to combat it, or suggestions on what to do after it hits?
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Other Irrelevant info:

My monk is effective basically because he's played with utter reckless abandon, as he has so many buffs on him & so many weird immunities that basically only automatic damage matters. Thus, his best strategy is usually "kill it as past as possible, and ignore everything they can throw at me."

The saves range from +17 to +25, he's constantly blinking (pierce magical concealment +BlinkingRing), and the AC is usually in the 40's, depending on what buffs I have going at the time, and touch AC is at most 8 off (mage armor+shield). Doesn't need to see, attack is holy/lawful/magic/bludgeoning, and he can stagger an enemy for 9 rounds as a standard action if they fail a will save.
However, with no items or buffs... his bonuses range from +10 to +16, AC's merely 20, attack's just magic/lawful/bludgeoning, and he can't fly or blink, needs to see, doesn't have a damage bonus to attack (no str bonus), and my to-hit goes to +15.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-05, 11:56 PM
Arrange a sit-down with the DM. Explain that you are worried about certain abusable spells that ruin the game at higher levels, whether either side uses them. Point to Holy Word(with CL boosts), Disjunction(and the sheer number of saves you have to make, the length of time it will take just figuring out which saves to use, the poor RAW, and the massive nerfage), and Astral Projection. Make a gentleman's agreement that neither side will use those spells, on penalty of having those spells used against them. Always worked fairly well for me.

theMycon
2009-07-06, 12:13 AM
Arrange a sit-down with the DM. Explain that you are worried about certain abusable spells that ruin the game at higher levels, whether either side uses them. Point to Holy Word(with CL boosts), Disjunction(and the sheer number of saves you have to make, the length of time it will take just figuring out which saves to use, the poor RAW, and the massive nerfage), and Astral Projection. Make a gentleman's agreement that neither side will use those spells, on penalty of having those spells used against them. Always worked fairly well for me.

Oh, Sstoopidtallkid... always so reasonable...

As I said, the DM is a very nice man & rarely springs this stuff on us. He'd never even consider it on his own- he's been playing long enough to know what's a pain and what's not. However, he's following a very nasty module, and always listens to their end-of-module surprises. We've accepted this. I wouldn't be playing a monk for 14 levels if I didn't want a challenge.

If the module says it's going to happen, it will. While it probably won't... it'd a big enough problem that I'd prefer to be prepared, just in case, instead of hoping a gentleman's agreement will over-ride accepted policy in the scripted final battle.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-06, 12:36 AM
Oh, Sstoopidtallkid... always so reasonable...It's a no-save, just lose spell. You can save to mitigate some of the damage, but it's really insta-gib for any unprepared party, and as you've noted, there's not much a prepared party can do against it. Out-of game is really the only decent response.

One easily useful method is the poor man's AMF: Silence. MDJ has only verbal components, but Verbal is enough to keep them from casting while silenced. If your DM ignores the stupid RAW on Monk SR, have the Wiz cast it on you and you move next to the more dangerous caster. You have to stay on top of them, but with Monk move, you can ready an action to stay next to her and that should be enough to keep her from doing much of anything.

Are you sure you'll be facing MDJ? The Sorceress may not have it on her list of spells known(she only gets 3 9th, after all, and Wish is apparently one of them), and only magic domain grants it to Clerics.

Douglas
2009-07-06, 12:44 AM
Ring of Spell-Battle, MIC page 127. 1/day redirect any spell cast within 60' of you, provided you have enough spellcraft to identify it. Sorry, was that Disjunction supposed to hit us instead of your boss?:smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 12:48 AM
Spellbattle is disputed, but I allow it to work, since MDJ still does target, it just targets an area, and RoS doesn't include the normal language that things like spell-turning do to insure that it refers only to directly targeted single-affected-individual spells.

Alternatively...
Countercasting, counterspelling, dispelling screen, prismatic walls or Io7V, or shaped AMF.

All of these work.
My favorite, naturally, boils down to Kill The Mage Before She Kills You.

Milskidasith
2009-07-06, 01:06 AM
Win initiative. Cast time stop. Win.

ericgrau
2009-07-06, 01:27 AM
Readied action to disrupt a spell. If you hit and do reasonable damage, you'll screw the MDJ guy with an impossible concentration check. Try readying a scorching ray, for example.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-06, 01:34 AM
Readied action to disrupt a spell. If you hit and do reasonable damage, you'll screw the MDJ guy with an impossible concentration check. Try readying a scorching ray, for example.The problem with that is readying the action. You don't want it to trigger off of a quickened spell or similar weaker one, but you also want to make sure you don't waste your action waiting for something specific(after all, the Cleric would probably be perfectly happy to melee to avoid wasting a spell and taking damage). The Sorc, of course, is probably going to be out of range of your Scorching Ray anyways(both spells are Close, but Sorc's CL is at least 2 higher, and smart casters stay as far back as possible).

satorian
2009-07-06, 01:42 AM
Win initiative. Cast time stop. Win.

He's 14th level.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-06, 01:52 AM
Countercasting, counterspelling, dispelling screen, prismatic walls or Io7V, or shaped AMF.

All of these work.
My favorite, naturally, boils down to Kill The Mage Before She Kills You.

This. Sad but true, these are things that players must learn to manage after a while, IMHO.

Milskidasith
2009-07-06, 02:00 AM
He's 14th level.


Relevant info: Currently level 14, should be 16/17 at end, most characters've been with the part since 5 or so.

The wizard should be able to use a singular timestop by the endgame.

Talic
2009-07-06, 02:07 AM
Good way to get a reasonable level of protection?

Contingent AMF, if you can find an item/ability to boost caster level (Archmage is good). Wizard Dismisses it on his action, and party goes to town. Just stick close.

Saph
2009-07-06, 02:33 AM
Simple, reliable solutions are best. "Kill her first" is simple, but not reliable.

I'd suggest combining two of the previous ideas: Have the cleric or other caster ready an action to chuck a Silence on a spot near the BBEG if she starts casting. No save, just ruins the spell. Problem: requires a readied action.

Contingency AMF is also a good choice. Problem: only works once, and actually nerfs you even more badly until you get the chance to dismiss it / move out of it.

Finally, there's the aforementioned Ring of Spell-Battle. As long as you're not caught flat-footed, redirect the spell and drop it right on top of the caster. Problem: needs to be okayed, again only works once/day.

Either that, or one of your casters needs to get serious about counterspelling. It can be done, with a bit of work.

One of those should hopefully work.

- Saph

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 05:08 AM
Saph, I am not..... precisely the paragon of reliability. You may already know this. :)

That said, while I'm not sure it will help, there's a persistifiable spell called Moonblade that's a heck of a lot of fun if you think you can reliably hit the sorceress. It can be amped up to do a tremendous amount of damage and any damage dealt by it basically counts as continuous damage. Great spell, particularly since you can stack the concentration checks it forces, and all attacks made with it are touch attacks.

To comment more carefully on ring of spell-battle, it does not actually need to be worn by a caster. I tend to load one onto all of my characters, even when I'm building uber-chargers, and combine it with battle-magic perception (via a ring of spell-storing) which is an absolute GEM of a spell from heroes of battle.

A relevant guide. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1017175)

Eldariel
2009-07-06, 06:06 AM
Contingency gets dispelled unless it resolves before the Disjunction. Contingent AMF or Teleport or any such works to whisk you out of the harm's way. Battlemagic Perception [Heroes of Battle] also makes it rather counterable.

Too bad Spellblade doesn't work against Disjunction. Ah well, yeah, Contingencies and countermagic are your friends. Oh yeah, your Wizard could enjoy full cover from Wings of Cover [RoTD]. If he happens to be Dragonblood, he can protect your entire party. Immediate actions are your friend.


EDIT: Wings of Cover is a Sorc-only spell. Bleh, UMD it from a scroll in your hands at all times.

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 06:21 AM
Ring of Theurgy, pg 145, Complete Arcane.

For all (Some. Okay, ~3.) your off-list needs in the near-core department.

Funkyodor
2009-07-06, 06:44 AM
Since MDJ is a burst that affects spells/items and not characters. And total cover can stop a burst. The characters just need to interpose total cover between their stuff and the MDJ's point of origin. How to do that reliably on the casters turn? Ready an action with a tower shield? Contingent wall of stone or some other total cover making spell that can't be dispelled?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-06, 07:02 AM
Antimagic Aura might be a winner here. A 7th level Wizard spell, range of touch, duration of 1 round/level, Will negates (the only real problem). If successful, the target alone is treated as if it were in an anti-magic field: magic doesn't affect it, and it can't use magic. All those buffs you have that affect your attacks? They'll still work.

So hit the mage with it, and then bring the monk into play. :smallbiggrin:

Cyclocone
2009-07-06, 07:14 AM
Antimagic Aura might be a winner here. A 7th level Wizard spell, range of touch, duration of 1 round/level, Will negates (the only real problem). If successful, the target alone is treated as if it were in an anti-magic field: magic doesn't affect it, and it can't use magic. All those buffs you have that affect your attacks? They'll still work.

So hit the mage with it, and then bring the monk into play. :smallbiggrin:

There's also Antimagic Ray. Same level and duration, but ranged touch, and no save for characters; costs money though.

ericgrau
2009-07-06, 11:25 AM
The problem with that is readying the action. You don't want it to trigger off of a quickened spell or similar weaker one, but you also want to make sure you don't waste your action waiting for something specific(after all, the Cleric would probably be perfectly happy to melee to avoid wasting a spell and taking damage). The Sorc, of course, is probably going to be out of range of your Scorching Ray anyways(both spells are Close, but Sorc's CL is at least 2 higher, and smart casters stay as far back as possible).

The flunky is a sorcerer, so no quickened spell. Generally it's well worth it to lose the action of 1 PC to both disrupt the high level enemy's spell and deal some damage. Regardless of what she's casting, even if it's not MDJ. Close range is still 40 feet - 16 inches on the battle mat - which is as large or larger than most rooms. If not, then there are plenty of longer range spells like fireball.

EDIT: Even with quickened spell you could ready an action to disrupt any powerful spell (level >5ish) or non-quickened spell and make a spellcraft DC 15 + spell level (practically auto-success at level 14) or some such at time of casting just like you do when readying an action to counterspell.

theMycon
2009-07-06, 07:49 PM
No, I'm nt sure I'll be facing this. I just like to be ready. I'm a boy-scout monk- I come prepared. And besides, this is giving me good "shut-down" ideas for in general.

So far, my favorite ideas are...

Silence- embarassingly simple, doesn't hurt me at all, and if I position myself well it doesn't hurt the party either. Unfortunately, they may have SR.

Antimagic ray- I can imagine a "so it missed, and hit a wall 5' behind her. She's still antimagic'd" discussion.

Kill her fast- always the goal. Plus, having mage slayer/pierce Magical concealment, I just need to prep the action to follow, and disrupting will happen more-or-less automatically (since a sorceress can't quicked-dimdoor away). If it works, it also opens the possibility of a full attack next round. The bane of wizards/sorcerers everywhere.