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Loki Eremes
2009-07-06, 05:33 AM
not too much of a question for a whole thread:

Does "DEFENDING" weapon enchantment stack with the one of another weapon?

- lets say i have 2 defending daggers
First one +3
Second one +2

do i obtain +5 to AC?
or just the higher one (+3)?

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-06, 05:35 AM
The general consensus around here seems to be "maybe, we're not sure".

There are several arguments for why it would work, and also for why it wouldn't.

What we do know, however, is that it's much, much cheaper to just buy a +5 Light Spiked Shield.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-06, 05:45 AM
Yes, it would stack:

A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.
One defending bonus will stack with the other defending bonus, and vise versa, since each one stacks with all other bonuses.

Killer Angel
2009-07-06, 06:09 AM
not too much of a question for a whole thread:


Biffoniacus should have given you the right answer.
Anyway, making a thread for havin a single answer to a rule question, it's not an error, but for your convenience, I suggest to post such specific questions, in this stickied thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113648).

mohdri
2009-07-06, 08:42 AM
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.



1. adj , pron
further: refers to an additional or further person or thing of the type already mentioned
adj Let me make one other suggestion.
pron A couple of students failed the exam, but many others passed.

2. adj , pron
different: refers to a different thing or things from that or those already specified
adj Banks are unlike any other business in the United States.
adj Are there any other items you’d like to take home?
pron This problem, more than any other, has divided the critics.

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

The problem comes in with the definition of "other". Does it mean all of the same type (i.e. itself, #1 above), or everything else (i.e. not itself, but everything other than itself, #2 above). This is where the arguments comes into play as to why it should and shoudn't work. For the money (as Yuki_Akuma makes reference to) I would probably allow it to stack, but others (than myself that is :smallbiggrin:) would say no. Depends on which definition of "other" you place in this context.

Gorbash
2009-07-06, 08:48 AM
What we do know, however, is that it's much, much cheaper to just buy a +5 Light Spiked Shield.

But if you're a wizard/cleric of sufficiently high lvl, it's really just easier to cast Greater Magic Weapon a few times.

Once, on a weapon, once on armor spikes, once on shield spikes for a grand total of +15 unnamed bonus to AC.

But, yeah, it's just silly. I'd say that other bonus means armor/dex/shield/deflection/natural/etc, but unnamed is unnamed...

So... Maybe, I'm not sure. :smalltongue:

Riffington
2009-07-06, 09:05 AM
Without getting into the merits, the main questions people have raised are:
*does defending do anything on a dagger?
*does defending stack with defending?
*do you have to attack with each defending weapon to get its bonus?

mohdri
2009-07-06, 10:10 AM
Why would it not work with a dagger? What it is the point of contention here? I see no weapon restrictions in the description.

The other two I've seen discussed before...

Edit: I see. "Sword" in the discription is the point. Can it work on anything other than a sword (long, short, great other). I get it now.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-06, 12:59 PM
IMHO, Defending should work on any weapon and not stack with itself. That's not the RAW, though. If you want to play by RAI or Rules-as-sane, then you get one Defending weapon. If you want to argue that by RAW you can get Defending Armor Spikes, a Defending Shield, 2 Defending Daggers, and a Defending Braid Blade, I'm going to argue that none of those qualify for the enhancement by RAW.

Either way, you at most get 2 Defending weapons.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-06, 01:17 PM
But if you're a wizard/cleric of sufficiently high lvl, it's really just easier to cast Greater Magic Weapon a few times.

Once, on a weapon, once on armor spikes, once on shield spikes for a grand total of +15 unnamed bonus to AC.

But, yeah, it's just silly. I'd say that other bonus means armor/dex/shield/deflection/natural/etc, but unnamed is unnamed...

So... Maybe, I'm not sure. :smalltongue:

Psh. Chained Greater Magic Weapon. Also, defending boot-blades and a defending tailspike and defending braidblade. And I think there are weapons you can wear on your elbows.


Without getting into the merits, the main questions people have raised are:
*does defending do anything on a dagger?

There's a specific weapon in Complete Adventurer which is a Defending dagger. So, uh, yes.


*does defending stack with defending?

Maybe.


*do you have to attack with each defending weapon to get its bonus?

It doesn't say you have to, so no.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-06, 01:55 PM
Due to the scaling of attack bonuses vs the scaling of AC, generally you're MUCH better off dealing with miss-chances, rather than armor class, 'cept for the earliest levels.

If you REALLY want to push it, find a feat/class feature that allows the AC bonuses on multiple shields to stack, then get an two regular shields, an animated shield, armor spikes, shield spikes, two boot blades, a braid-blade, a mouth-pick, and a tail-club. Chain greater magic weapon and get defending on all of them.

You might have a competitive AC at high levels, assuming you've pumped up other sources of AC, too.

VirOath
2009-07-06, 02:29 PM
As per RAW Defending stacks with everything. Though any rule can be seen and changed at the DM's wim, so don't rules lawyer it.

Now, to completely abuse it.

You can, at the same time have:
2 Buckler Axes (CW, Exotic WP needed to attack without penality)
2 hand held weapons
2 Sleeve Blades (CSc, Blade is above the hand)
2 Knee Blades (CSc)
2 Elbow Blades (CSc)
2 Boot blades (CSc)
And one set of Armor Spikes.

Now all of the above can be given defending and a +5 bonus. Stacking it all at once gives +65 to AC. You do not have to attack with a Defending Weapon to use it's bonus, as it is a common tactic to have an off hand weapon with defending on TWF to get a boost to AC when needed. Then doing something like Pin Shield.

Assume +5 magic shield and armor. And assume base AC boost from combined Dex+ Armor + Shield of 10, and the base AC of 10. 95 AC. Bloody expensive though.

Now to really abuse it, all of the above can have a Wand Compartment in them. So you can count as having 13 wands at the ready at all times.


Actually trying this? Bad idea.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-06, 02:32 PM
As per RAW Defending stacks with everything. Though any rule can be seen and changed at the DM's wim, so don't rules lawyer it.

Now, to completely abuse it.

You can, at the same time have:
2 Buckler Axes (CW, Exotic WP needed to attack without penality)
2 hand held weapons
2 Sleeve Blades (CSc, Blade is above the hand)
2 Knee Blades (CSc)
2 Elbow Blades (CSc)
2 Boot blades (CSc)
And one set of Armor Spikes.

Now all of the above can be given defending and a +5 bonus. Stacking it all at once gives +65 to AC. You do not have to attack with a Defending Weapon to use it's bonus, as it is a common tactic to have an off hand weapon with defending on TWF to get a boost to AC when needed. Then doing something like Pin Shield.

Assume +5 magic shield and armor. And assume base AC boost from combined Dex+ Armor + Shield of 10, and the base AC of 10. 95 AC. Bloody expensive though.

Now to really abuse it, all of the above can have a Wand Compartment in them. So you can count as having 13 wands at the ready at all times.


Actually trying this? Bad idea.As I said, you want to do that, fine. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW. RAW, Defending only applies to swords. None of your items actually do anything useful. RAI, it's a different story, but you aren't using RAI if you're trying to stack 13 Defending weapons.

VirOath
2009-07-06, 02:40 PM
As I said, you want to do that, fine. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW. RAW, Defending only applies to swords. None of your items actually do anything useful. RAI, it's a different story, but you aren't using RAI if you're trying to stack 13 Defending weapons.

No kidding. Note the statements at the top and bottom of all of that. Obviously not RAI, and not a good idea to try to bring in the campaign.

Heck, I'd allow it if I saw it at my table, mostly because the sight of it is amusing, they would cut themselves trying to scratch their nose, and I'd just shift it to Touch AC and Saves only, making it all pointless.

This is the sort of thing that gets players bopped on the nose with a newpaper by the DM, yelling "BAD PLAYER!" I only included it for the completely absurd extreme, same reason why Pun Pun was written. That and it's funny.

Mando Knight
2009-07-06, 03:39 PM
RAW, Defending only applies to swords.

But what is a sword? Is a Falchion a sword? How about a Claymore? Fullblade?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-06, 10:23 PM
But what is a sword? Is a Falchion a sword? How about a Claymore? Fullblade?No, no, no. In fact, depending on how bad the player was about stacking defending, I might even say that, RAW, a Long, Short, Great, or Bastard Sword is not a sword.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 10:52 PM
No, no, no. In fact, depending on how bad the player was about stacking defending, I might even say that, RAW, a Long, Short, Great, or Bastard Sword is not a sword.

So you'd say that defending didn't exist without actually saying defending didn't exist? woo. :smalltongue:

Salt_Crow
2009-07-06, 11:04 PM
Meh, grab a +1 defending/+1 defending two-bladed sword, cast GMW on it (twice or chained) and call it a day. +10 AC ftw!

VirOath
2009-07-06, 11:37 PM
And besides, it doesn't state that ONLY swords can hold defending.


Defending

A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.

Yes, it says sword. But that is easily replaceable with any weapon, as notice what it is lacking from the next example.


Disruption

A weapon of disruption is the bane of all undead. Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or be destroyed. A weapon of disruption must be a bludgeoning weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for a piercing or slashing weapon, reroll.)

Strong conjuration; CL 14th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, heal; Price +2 bonus.

Let me bring out what is important here.


(If you roll this property randomly for a piercing or slashing weapon, reroll.)

Without that, there is no limit as to what melee weapon it can be put on. In fact, you can roll up defending on any melee weapon regardless of type on the Random Treasure Table, which means it can be crafted that way.

And besides, there is no property written that can ONLY be applied to one subset of a subgroup. Ranged, Melee, Piercing, Slashing and Bludgeoning are the only limiters to it.

You could even have Defending on a Mace if you desired.


Now again, is it RAI? No way in hell. Is it balanced, should a player ever try it? No way. But it is stupidly expensive, and gives the problem that it does nothing to help other methods of being hit. Like Pun-Pun, it's right by RAW, and like Pun-Pun, was only done as a theoretical exercise, NEVER meant to be put into play.

No DM in their right mind should allow that into their campaign and toss out AC hitters against them. It is very reasonable to rule that Defending doesn't stack with itself, as by Rule 0, if you don't like it, as the DM change it. It is very reasonable to pull out Save and Touch hitters if you even let a player take it.

Because power beyond that appropriate for your level is power beyond what is appropriate for your level. If something isn't a challenge, then how is it fun? How is that worth anything?

If anything, it's a melee brute to use to butcher an over the top Ubercharger in a party that isn't optimized at all. DM use only for the purposes of effective play.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-06, 11:38 PM
So you'd say that defending didn't exist without actually saying defending didn't exist? woo. :smalltongue:As I said, it depends on the player. For the 13 Defending weapon build posted earlier, yes. They lose defending. Abuse RAW, and I will use RAW to abuse you. That's the punishment for breaking rule -1. If they just took 2 defending short swords and a set of armor spikes, then they just lose the armor spikes, as my interpretation of RAW will just be enough of a nerf to bring it back down to the level of RAI.

Edit @ the ninja: Yes, you can apply Defending to maces, or Armor spikes, or 13,000 Braid Blades. But since none of those are swords, you can't transfer their enhancement bonus from the weapon to AC.

VirOath
2009-07-07, 12:13 AM
<Chuckles>
Mostly I just use Defending on Armor spikes to get a meager AC boost, unless I'm already sitting on the highest AC and the DM isn't tossing things that hit me with a 2 constantly.

Not a serious build, and rule how you wish, just feel free to laugh at the silliness of it :smallbiggrin:

I mean, just think of it. A halfling with blades shooting out from his wrists, elbows, knees and feet, covered in sharp, spiky armor, having a buckler on each arm and wielding short swords. Now he had got to shuffle himself into melee before you take the ground out from under him. His bane? 10ft pits.

Heck, it would be more dangerous for him to be a weapon with that many spiky bits. So you have a Goliath with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Halfling) that dual wields Defending abusing Halflings...

Naw, it would have to be Dwarves, then you could grab and swing them by their beard :smallbiggrin:

And yes, I am just bored XD

Killer Angel
2009-07-07, 02:18 AM
As I said, you want to do that, fine. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW. RAW, Defending only applies to swords. None of your items actually do anything useful. RAI, it's a different story, but you aren't using RAI if you're trying to stack 13 Defending weapons.

Didn't you need to actively use the sword, to gain the defending bonus?
It seems strange to me, if I can gain AC, while subtracting "to hit bonuses" of the sword that lies in his scabbard...

Droodle
2009-07-07, 02:43 AM
Didn't you need to actively use the sword, to gain the defending bonus?
It seems strange to me, if I can gain AC, while subtracting "to hit bonuses" of the sword that lies in his scabbard...That would be my interpretation. Two weapons? Sure. A great sword with Armor spikes? Maybe. It seems perfectly reasonable to allow two actively wielded defending weapons to stack, since you have to give up your attack bonus to do it anyway. 2 swords, a spiked buckler, Armor Spikes, knee, boot, elbow, and sleeve blades? I'll let you do it, but you only get the bonus from the weapons you're actually using at the moment, since those are the only weapons giving you an attack bonus in that particular round. I just don't see sacrificing the attack bonus from a weapon you aren't wielding as falling within RAI.

Loki Eremes
2009-07-07, 02:03 PM
Wow. 48hs and i didnt expected so many answers fur this :elan:




As per RAW Defending stacks with everything. Though any rule can be seen and changed at the DM's wim, so don't rules lawyer it.

Now, to completely abuse it.

You can, at the same time have:
2 Buckler Axes (CW, Exotic WP needed to attack without penality)
2 hand held weapons
2 Sleeve Blades (CSc, Blade is above the hand)
2 Knee Blades (CSc)
2 Elbow Blades (CSc)
2 Boot blades (CSc)
And one set of Armor Spikes.

Now all of the above can be given defending and a +5 bonus. Stacking it all at once gives +65 to AC. You do not have to attack with a Defending Weapon to use it's bonus, as it is a common tactic to have an off hand weapon with defending on TWF to get a boost to AC when needed. Then doing something like Pin Shield.

Assume +5 magic shield and armor. And assume base AC boost from combined Dex+ Armor + Shield of 10, and the base AC of 10. 95 AC. Bloody expensive though.

Now to really abuse it, all of the above can have a Wand Compartment in them. So you can count as having 13 wands at the ready at all times.


Actually trying this? Bad idea.


OVER 9000 !!!!
I really love the idea of a halfling with all that blades
It would be a great idea adding him to MIC.




That would be my interpretation. Two weapons? Sure. A great sword with Armor spikes? Maybe. It seems perfectly reasonable to allow two actively wielded defending weapons to stack, since you have to give up your attack bonus to do it anyway. 2 swords, a spiked buckler, Armor Spikes, knee, boot, elbow, and sleeve blades? I'll let you do it, but you only get the bonus from the weapons you're actually using at the moment, since those are the only weapons giving you an attack bonus in that particular round. I just don't see sacrificing the attack bonus from a weapon you aren't wielding as falling within RAI.


Perfect
since you obtain the bonuses from the weapons youre using, i liked your logic.


and finally.... only SWORDs?
in that case:

"A sword fundamentally consists of a blade and a hilt, typically with one or two edges for striking and cutting, and a point for thrusting."
-wikipedia

Personally, wikipedia isnt the most reliable source out there... but fak it, its a F***ing sword. And that definition applies for a dagger, a bastard sword, fullblade, rapier, etc,etc,etc
But, that will exclude other weapons as maces, bows, etc. :smallconfused:

Curmudgeon
2009-07-07, 05:00 PM
You need to parse the description appropriately. The defending property works on all types of weapons. It just only "stacks with all others" when used with swords, and only when they're actively wielded. So one defending dagger is great. Two don't give you any more benefit than one. And you can have defending armor spikes, shield spike, and boot blades -- but never get the AC bonus from more than one of them. Two swords, though -- those will stack. You're pretty feeble on the attack because you'll be adding two-weapon fighting penalties to your reduced weapon enhancement, but I think that was the intent.