Undoing the Mind-rape spell

[hewhosaysfish]

What can do it?

What does the text of the Mind-rape spell have to say about reversing the effects?

I believe it's Instantaneoous rather than Permanent so can't be dispelled... Is it beyond the reach of Remove Curse or Break Enchantment?

Can a Wish or Miracle heal it?

How easily can the victiim identify fake memories, given contradictory evidence, time and contemplation?

Can the caster reverse the effects, if he so chooses? If he can, does he have to be able to remember the changes he made?

[Telonius]

The text of the spell says that memories changed by it can only be restored by Wish or Miracle. If the spell leaves the subject Insane (as per the Insanity spell) the insanity can be fixed by Wish, Miracle, Heal, Greater Restoration, Limited Wish, and Heart's Ease. Personality changes can be fixed by Break Enchantment.

The caster doesn't need to leave the subject insane or memory-changed if he doesn't want to - he could just stick with just knowing everything the target knows. If for whatever reason he needs to go back and change the memories again, he could simply cast the spell again and change things as he desired. 9th-level spell though, so he probably wouldn't be throwing these around without reason.

[Doc Roc]

The caster doesn't need to leave the subject insane or memory-changed if he doesn't want to - he could just stick with just knowing everything the target knows. If for whatever reason he needs to go back and change the memories again, he could simply cast the spell again and change things as he desired. 9th-level spell though, so he probably wouldn't be throwing these around without reason.

Mindrape, while terrifying, depressing, and disgusting, has no material or xp component, is very useful, and hard to detect after the fact. I am afraid that I throw mindrape around with pretty much impunity as an evil aligned caster. :: shrugs ::

[kemmotar]

Doubting there is a D&D spell actually called mind rape...I need to ask. What is the mind rape spell you're referring to? Haven't heard of it...though I assume it's psionic?

[Fishy]

Don't know about Mind Rape, but Programmed Amnesia gives the example of a Lawful Good Paladin given a rebuilt persona and forcibly converted to True Neutral.

If you leave some of his memories of being an ardent defender of law, and don't implant a convincing fake memory of why he changed, then a little bit of self-reflection will reveal the obvious gap in his memory, and he might go and get a Wish, Miracle or Greater Restoration.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Psionics also can play a hand in it. Psychic Chirurgery should reverse it.

[Telonius]

Not in the same day, though, right? Even a 34-INT wizard is only going to have 5 or 6 per day. Every one of those you cast is one fewer Time Stop, Gate, or Foresight.

[mikeejimbo]

Doubting there is a D&D spell actually called mind rape...I need to ask. What is the mind rape spell you're referring to? Haven't heard of it...though I assume it's psionic?

It is a 9th level arcane spell, and it's [Evil]. I don't know what book it's from, but I'm pretty sure it's not core.

[Doc Roc]

If you leave some of his memories of being an ardent defender of law, and don't implant a convincing fake memory of why he changed, then a little bit of self-reflection will reveal the obvious gap in his memory, and he might go and get a Wish, Miracle or Greater Restoration.

Leave memories?
You mistake me for someone who doesn't leave the empty and broken husks of his foes as the only monument to his passage, their sole remaining spark dedicated to a false memory of a false life in which they serve without question.


No, Mindrape is an actual spell, from BoVD originally, if I remember correctly. But how would I know if I remember correctly.

::stares at the sky::
We forget how beautiful the stars are.

[Cyclocone]

"It sounds broken, so it must be psionics"?:smallconfused:

It's in BoVD, as befits it's foul nature.

[Doc Roc]

Not in the same day, though, right? Even a 34-INT wizard is only going to have 5 or 6 per day. Every one of those you cast is one fewer Time Stop, Gate, or Foresight.

Tainted scholar. I cast as per a wizard with 120 int. :|
That's 15 or so casts per day of my 9ths. :|
Never allow that PrC if you want even a shred of caster/non-caster balance.

[kemmotar]

"It sounds broken, so it must be psionics"?:smallconfused:

It's in BoVD, as befits it's foul nature.

well you know...spell i never heard of, something to do with mind...hasta be psionics...

Though BoVD...hmm...have to check it when I get home...should be fun...though I don't play evil characters I usually play them in a subtle LE way...so My character shouldn't have a problem of casting a spell with the "evil" descriptor...hmm..fun

[Fishy]

There is nothing even a little bit subtle about the BoVD.

[FMArthur]

Isn't BoVD 3.0?

[hewhosaysfish]

The caster doesn't need to leave the subject insane or memory-changed if he doesn't want to - he could just stick with just knowing everything the target knows. If for whatever reason he needs to go back and change the memories again, he could simply cast the spell again and change things as he desired. 9th-level spell though, so he probably wouldn't be throwing these around without reason.

Well, let's assume - hypothetically speaking, of course -

Donald, Paul, Harcus, Issy - if you're reading this: DON'T. Go find another thread


...that the caster had altered my character's the hapless victim's memory and had limited himself to (mostly) just doing that.

And let's also assume that due to a hilarious magical back-fire the caster also caused himself to believe the modified version of events... but was still aware that he had modified the victim's memory just not what changes he had made.

Could the caster choose to undo the effects of the Mind-rape (either on the victim or more likely on himself) despite the fact he doesn't know precisely what the effects were?

Essentially, what I'm asking is: is modifying someones memory like painting over the top of an existing picture (and if you're patient then you can scrape the new paint off the reveal the older image) or is it like recording over a home-movie on a video-tape (and the only way to get the home-movie back is to find another copy and copy onto the original tape)?

[kemmotar]

Ya well if you go for that spell that needs a fresh hand of a good cleric and summons a gigantic fist from the sky that batters down for a lot of d6 for a lot of rounds...yes...no sublety...

But mind rape the right person where nobody saw you...and it's made of win...suddenly your beautiful female rogue is his wife and then you run off with all his money...plus you know where all the keys are for the safes etc...

Besides, when he says, my wife stole it the guards will simply lock him up because he never had a wife...

[Callos_DeTerran]

There is nothing even a little bit subtle about the BoVD.

No, but there's a whole lot of fun though.

[Telonius]

Well, let's assume - hypothetically speaking, of course -

Donald, Paul, Harcus, Issy - if you're reading this: DON'T. Go find another thread


...that the caster had altered my character's the hapless victim's memory and had limited himself to (mostly) just doing that.

And let's also assume that due to a hilarious magical back-fire the caster also caused himself to believe the modified version of events... but was still aware that he had modified the victim's memory just not what changes he had made.

Could the caster choose to undo the effects of the Mind-rape (either on the victim or more likely on himself) despite the fact he doesn't know precisely what the effects were?

Essentially, what I'm asking is: is modifying someones memory like painting over the top of an existing picture (and if you're patient then you can scrape the new paint off the reveal the older image) or is it like recording over a home-movie on a video-tape (and the only way to get the home-movie back is to find another copy and copy onto the original tape)?



Since only Wish or Miracle can fix it, I would assume that it's more like recording over a home-movie. If it were just plastering over things, or causing somebody to repress an existing memory, then something like Break Enchantment or a number of other mind-affecting spells and effects could probably restore it. Compare it to the Modify Memory spell, which also doesn't list any way of regaining the original memory. With Modify Memory, the person might reject or explain away the memory if it's obviously illogical. But again, Mindrape is a 9th-level spell, so would be a lot more powerful. There might be similar Psionic powers that are comparable, but I'm not as familiar with Psionics.

[kemmotar]

I don't have the books with me now but my guess is that if memory is rewritten and the character is presented with evidence that provides proof contrary to the rewritten memories i'd allow anothe will save to at least realise that his memories are engineered, which would certainly be a step forward.

After that, he could gather information to find out what actually happened and so would be able to regain his memories in an indirect way...you could even make a side quest out of it...

[Fizban]

Isn't BoVD 3.0?

Kinda 3.15 or so. It uses a couple things from 3.5, but a lot of the material requires conversion (such as damage reduction changes), which can be found in the 3.5 update pdf. Spells generally don't need to be updated for 3.5, and all 3.0 material that isn't specifically updated remains valid, so Mindrape is in.

[ChaosDefender24]

Tainted scholar. I cast as per a wizard with 120 int. :|
That's 15 or so casts per day of my 9ths. :|
Never allow that PrC if you want even a shred of caster/non-caster balance.

isn't there no limit at all for that, provided that you're a necropolitan or something?

[Flickerdart]

Psychic Chirurgery:

Repair Psychic Damage
You can remove any compulsions and charms affecting the subject. In fact, you can remove any instantaneous or permanent effect caused by a psychic power with psychic chirurgery. Unlike with aura alteration, these effects end or are negated as soon as this power is manifested, with no need for another saving throw.
Depending on whether or not Psionic-Magic Transparency is in effect, this level 9 Telepath power may or may not help.

[Callista]

How do you defend against the spell? I have never had a character high level and evil enough to use it, but it sounds way too useful to be foolproof. I'm assuming there's some sort of save involved, so that you have to lower the relevant save first before it has a chance of sticking?...

[Badgercloak]

What book is it in? Or can someone please show the stats to this terrifing, gonna be in my next BBG's arsenal spell.

[Flickerdart]

What book is it in? Or can someone please show the stats to this terrifing, gonna be in my next BBG's arsenal spell.
Book of Vile Darkness.

[FinalJustice]

Do mind that this spell is eligible for the Gentlemen's Agreement. You should not use on your players, and you don't want them to use it to enslave dragons and BBEGs.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

How do you defend against the spell? I have never had a character high level and evil enough to use it, but it sounds way too useful to be foolproof. I'm assuming there's some sort of save involved, so that you have to lower the relevant save first before it has a chance of sticking?...It's got a will save, allows SR, only affects a single target, and IIRC it's mind-affecting. By the time you get it, everyone is immune to it. So you don't use it in a combat situation. You hit an enemy with Save-or-lose, then when they're sitting there dispelled with no magic gear and -6 to everything, you cast it on them. Now you have a BBEG pet.

[Doc Roc]

Well, exceptions exist, such as using ur-priest as a fast progression ride to 9th level spells at level 14, where people are considerably less likely to be able to provide an excellent defense.

That said, save + sr is a big deal, enough so that I only use the spell for cool factor.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, exceptions exist, such as using ur-priest as a fast progression ride to 9th level spells at level 14, where people are considerably less likely to be able to provide an excellent defense.

That said, save + sr is a big deal, enough so that I only use the spell for cool factor.I thought that Mind Rape was Sorc/Wiz only. If it's Cleric, then Gaterape just became much better.