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Da Pwnzlord
2009-07-06, 10:32 AM
I have a friend who I've told about RPGs and wants to play. However, his mother is unsure about letting him participate. (what with all the bad press they get and all)

Are there any sites/articles that give well-thought out reasons why roleplaying is good for you/not harmful? (They can't be about D&D specifically, because that's not actually the game we're going to do. He's interested in Warhammer 40k)

kamikasei
2009-07-06, 10:39 AM
What specific bad press are we talking about? Is it the D&D = Satan stuff? The "he'll become a colossal nerd and I'll never have grandkids" stuff? The "he'll spend all his money on his Space Marine chapter and die of malnutrition when he decides that paint is an acceptable substitute for carbohydrates in his budget" stuff (a valid concern :smalltongue:)?

So far as I know, the negative image of RPGs in the popular consciousness is due to attacks made against D&D, so even if the game in question isn't D&D your best bet is probably to refute those attacks. I know there is at least one quite thorough fisking of the main source of the attacks which I can hunt down. That's assuming we're talking about the "D&D is a Satanic conspiracy" stuff. Let us know. Oh, and if any mod reads this, please advise whether pointing at resources around this issue is acceptable or whether we should take it to PM. I have no intention of getting in to a religious discussion, just determining whether the problem here is rooted in religion and providing links to material that addresses that.

Athaniar
2009-07-06, 10:41 AM
I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

Da Pwnzlord
2009-07-06, 10:42 AM
Well, one of her thing is "Do you have a conscience in this game? Can you do whatever you want and get away with it? Is there a clear distinction between good and evil?"

Athaniar
2009-07-06, 10:48 AM
I don't know about Warhammer, but D&D has its (in)famous alignment system, which is exactly what she's asking for. But she sounds like a very overprotective person, so I'm not sure that'll satisfy her. You should tell her that it's just a game, and as long as her son can distinguish between imagination and reality, there is no problem.

Jaltum
2009-07-06, 10:52 AM
Well, you could tell her honestly that it depends on the group, but that D&D traditionally uses a system where good and evil are specifically defined and have concrete effects on reality. There are character types like paladins who MUST remain good-aligned or lose all their 'superpowers.'

(I would avoid talking about clerics of fictional gods or magical powers.)

EDIT: Aaaand, I'm an idiot.

Honestly? You're not going to sell her on Warhammer 40K without outright lying.

elliott20
2009-07-06, 10:58 AM
if it's warhammer 40K, just tell her it's like chess but with far more elaborate pieces. If she's still concerned about the morality of the game, ask her if the white pieces in chess have an inherent moral leaning, or if the car in monopoly has some kind of spiritual implications you should be aware of.

of course, as long as you keep her away from the actual in-game brutality material it is drawn from, you'll be okay. But yeah, WH40K is known for it's grimdark goofiness.

Athaniar
2009-07-06, 10:59 AM
Mhm, Warhammer sort of takes D&Ds alignment system and removes the top half. Metaphorically speaking, of course, but still. A less Grimdark game might be a better start.

kamikasei
2009-07-06, 11:00 AM
Well, it's Warhammer. Is it the tabletop wargaming or the WFRP/Dark Heresy "proper" roleplaying game? If the wargaming, it's... just toy soldiers with more rules and a tongue-in-cheek setting. There is "good" and "evil", but the "good" guys aren't very nice, but then you're not meant to take it particularly seriously - it's just an excuse for the tactical play. As Xavius says though, unfortunately, there's the chance that a simple game set up to provide plentiful excuses for over-the-top fictional violence is in itself more than she's willing to let her child near.


I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

I'd have to find the essay I was talking about to be sure, but I think it mostly comes from one particular... pundit? campaigner? Not sure what the term would be... in the 80s who claimed D&D was responsible for her son's suicide and, well, pretty much just made a load of stuff up about how it was supposedly based on real occult practices, linked to the whole "Satanic child-abducting cults" thing that was having its fifteen minutes at the time, and so on. A lot of presumably well-meaning people being fed lies and taking them at face value, essentially.

(I know that Tom Hanks movie "Mazes and Monsters" was part of the general hubub, but I can't recall if it was based on the same death that drove the campaigner in question... I don't think so, though, it was just an example of the general panic as far as I recall.)

Magicus
2009-07-06, 11:02 AM
If I were in your shoes, I would make sure to stress the similarities between RPGs and collective storytelling... The nature of the conflict between good and evil, the conscience of the characters, etc. really do depend on the type of story that you're generating. If you wanted to come up with a Warhammer 40K game based on acting properly and living righteously, I'm sure you could... somehow.

On an unrelated note, blood for the blood god.

WalkingTarget
2009-07-06, 11:07 AM
(I know that Tom Hanks movie "Mazes and Monsters" was part of the general hubub, but I can't recall if it was based on the same death that drove the campaigner in question... I don't think so, though, it was just an example of the general panic as far as I recall.)

That was about the steam tunnel incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_tunnel_incident). Not having to do with any cults or anything, but it didn't exactly help the image of RPGs either.

Stormthorn
2009-07-06, 11:08 AM
I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

Jack Chick. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JackChick)

He also has a problem with neo-pagans. (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0011/0011_01.asp) (note that satan appears to have a cape of some sort)

Specificly, this is where he deals with DnD. (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp)

yilduz
2009-07-06, 11:08 AM
ask her if the white pieces in chess have an inherent moral leaning, or if the car in monopoly has some kind of spiritual implications you should be aware of.

From my experience, sarcasm on that level never really works with parents.

kamikasei
2009-07-06, 11:15 AM
Jack Chick. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JackChick)

In fact no - though that tract may have helped popularize the notion. It didn't originate with him, though.


That was about the steam tunnel incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_tunnel_incident). Not having to do with any cults or anything, but it didn't exactly help the image of RPGs either.

That's what I thought... essentially, there was a perception that RPGs rendered kids unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, leading them in to dangerous situations. Not sure whether the perception predated or was largely caused by the false claims of BADD and Patricial Pulling.

Anyway, it's not the essay I was thinking of, but it's probably a more suitable one for this purpose: here (http://www.rpg.net/realm/critique/gama.html).

Stormthorn
2009-07-06, 11:28 AM
In fact no - though that tract may have helped popularize the notion. It didn't originate with him, though.


I edited my post to include his tract on RPGs.

While it happened after the origional Steam Tunnel Incident i think its fair to say that his plublicity for the idea that DnD makes you a suicidal satanist has been a huge influence on its place in urban myth.


Jakc Chick and that movie with Tom Hanks are the reason its in popular culture.

shadzar
2009-07-06, 11:32 AM
I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

Maybe older than this, but this (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp) is the earliest I know of from 1984.

Well clicked preview and it posted then didn't show me the post to edit it....

D&D is just a game like hopscotch. You only take out of it what you bring into it.

Like any program on TV, or any other activity. you get out what you put in.

You just are the doggy from the Monopoly game, in the game world. It is no different than acting in a movie or play when you play because that is what it is. Like playing Cops and Robbers, you act as if you were this character while playing.

Telonius
2009-07-06, 11:32 AM
if it's warhammer 40K, just tell her it's like chess but with far more elaborate pieces. If she's still concerned about the morality of the game, ask her if the white pieces in chess have an inherent moral leaning, or if the car in monopoly has some kind of spiritual implications you should be aware of.

of course, as long as you keep her away from the actual in-game brutality material it is drawn from, you'll be okay. But yeah, WH40K is known for it's grimdark goofiness.

Well, part of the problem might not be the pieces, but the game itself. If you go into it thinking that Monopoly encourages materialism and helps the hegemony keep down the proletariat, then talking about the in-game moral worth of the car vs. the hat isn't going to help much. If she's coming at it from the same place as people who say Harry Potter encourages sin and witchcraft, then there's not much you're going to be able to say to it without totally lying.

But, if she's just worried that her kid is going to fall in with a group of anarchists and Columbine wannabes, then that's a little easier to fix. Explain to her that a gaming session is more like collaborative acting. The players can make of it whatever they want - yeah, it can be GoreFest 6, but it can also be Wizard of Oz or Lawrence of Arabia. Introduce her to your gaming group, and their parents (if that would help). Basically, recognize where she's coming from - she's your mom, and she wants to make sure her child is safe. The more you respect her right to be worried about that, the better off the negotiations will go.

Stormthorn
2009-07-06, 11:40 AM
Maybe older than this, but this (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp) is the earliest I know of from 1984.

Well clicked preview and it posted then didn't show me the post to edit it....

D&D is just a game like hopscotch. You only take out of it what you bring into it.

Like any program on TV, or any other activity. you get out what you put in.

You just are the doggy from the Monopoly game, in the game world. It is no different than acting in a movie or play when you play because that is what it is. Like playing Cops and Robbers, you act as if you were this character while playing.

I already posted that chick track. His involvment is now disputed.


I dont get why Debbie gave up paganism. In Chicks universe the magic really works and, beyond that, she properly cited the wiccan rede about doing what you want as long as your not hurting anyone.

Callista
2009-07-06, 11:40 AM
You could show her the Order of the Stick comic. Definitely good-and-evil there.

Actually, have her sit in on a session, maybe even join if the learning curve's not too steep. A lot of those unfounded fears evaporate pretty quickly when you see a bunch of kids geeking it up pretending to be medieval heroes.

Kyeudo
2009-07-06, 11:45 AM
I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

In all honesty? Patricia Pulling. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Pulling) She was spreading lies about satanism in D&D long before Jack Chick got started.


If you want a good read of various stories about how people dealt with this sort of negative press that roleplaying in general has, check out this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=898514)on the Wizard's site. It has a ton of great stories,

Athaniar
2009-07-06, 12:05 PM
You could show her the Order of the Stick comic. Definitely good-and-evil there.

Although Belkar may not be the right kind of character for that purpose...

valadil
2009-07-06, 12:30 PM
A few weeks ago I saw an article about this topic. The concerned mom decided to ask at church. Her priest decided to look into the matter by buying the books and reading about D&D. He thought it was interesting but confusing. Eventually they gathered up a group of priests to watch the game. They were impressed with how educational it was and decided to throw regularly scheduled games at church. Sorry I can't find a link to the article.

You might want to try letting her listen to or watch a game. It would probably be awkward if she sat in on one of yours so maybe you could find a youtube video or podcast of what actually happens in an RPG.

bosssmiley
2009-07-06, 01:57 PM
In all honesty? Patricia Pulling. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Pulling) She was spreading lies about satanism in D&D long before Jack Chick got started.

And here (http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html) is Michael Stackpole (calmly, and with footnotes) showing Patricia Pulling up for the hysterical, blame-displacing, evidence-fabricating hate machine that she was. Go Mike! :smallcool:

@OP: D&D is a game of heroic fantasy. If your friend's parent ever saw "Jason and the Argonauts" or "Sinbad" in the 60s/70s, "Conan" or "Dragonslayer" in the 80s, or "Lord of the Rings" a few years back, then they'll have a vague idea of what D&D is about.

There's scholarly evidence (http://www.rpgstudies.net/) that RPGs can actually improve behavioural problems; and can encourage the acquisition of maths, language, reasoning, and social skills.

As for the sheer breadth of knowledge role-playing gives you. Let's put it this way: what other hobby can give you a grounding in history, anthropology, mythology and folklore, basic economics, architecture, political science, and numismatism as a side-effect of play? (Shamus Young of 20-sided (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/) did this rant better than I could, but unfortunately the link escapes me atm)

shadzar
2009-07-06, 02:35 PM
I already posted that chick track. His involvment is now disputed.

Not knowing anything about this Chick person other than that comic, I cannot comment further on it but I remembered the later incident that might have given D&D a bad look to it that may have been carried too far by some dactions.

Steam tunnel incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_tunnel_incident) that occurred in the late 70's, probably began the myth of D&D being bad for people....but people always said TV was bad, and computers would never become popular enough for people to have them at home also....:smallconfused:

warrl
2009-07-06, 02:37 PM
I think it was sometime in the early to mid 80s and someone interviewing Gygax - not sure about any of that - but anyone, it was a media interview of someone relating to D&D, and the interviewer asked about the number of suicides among teenage D&D players (which was a part of the big media fuss at the time).

The person being interviewed had researched this question and showed that said number was probably *low* to a statistically significant degree. That is, a preliminary review of the data using certain reasonable assumptions indicated that teenagers who played D&D were less likely to commit suicide than teenagers who did not.

mikeejimbo
2009-07-06, 02:42 PM
Real occultists laugh at Jack Chick. Very loudly and long. They also laugh at D&D, but more of a "How amusing that they got it wrong", sort of like when you watch movies with giant insects. At least D&D isn't supposed to be like real occultism.

Chick also hates Masons. And Catholics. And Harry Potter. And...


I dont get why Debbie gave up paganism. In Chicks universe the magic really works and, beyond that, she properly cited the wiccan rede about doing what you want as long as your not hurting anyone.

Well, the Wiccan rede was pretty much stolen from Crowley, and even I think he was creepy. I would have advocated her giving up neo-paganism for a different magick discipline myself, but if she's happy with it I can't really complain.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-06, 08:54 PM
Personally, I'd be more concerned with the lessons taught by Monopoly. Acting as a greedy landlord who has the sole goal of bankrupting everyone he knows in order to own all of the marketable property seems pretty sinister to me.

I can't contribute meaningfully to this, but I endorse the above, especially bosssmiley's post.

obnoxious
sig

erikun
2009-07-06, 09:03 PM
I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies#Patricia_Pullin g

You can thank Ms. Pulling for starting the trend, although to be fair, somebody was going to start saying something eventually. (see: Jack Chick) Heck, didn't someone go around saying Jazz was corrupting our youth?

[Edit] And that's what I get for not reading the rest of the responses before posting. Bleh....

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-06, 09:18 PM
There's always a New Rock and Roll. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheNewRockAndRoll) Currently video games, but this has been around since fricking Socrates was accused of "corrupting the youth".

elliott20
2009-07-06, 09:45 PM
This trend also happened to the comic book industry, (there was a book called "seduction of innocence" on this very topic) which basically led to it's eventual strict censoring and the industrial collapse and it didn't really start to recover until the 60s.

Talon Sky
2009-07-06, 09:46 PM
Personally, I'd be more concerned with the lessons taught by Monopoly. Acting as a greedy landlord who has the sole goal of bankrupting everyone he knows in order to own all of the marketable property seems pretty sinister to me.


Quoted for truth.

I've always been amused at the people at my church who told me my D&D sessions were 'evil', even though my players are typically saving towns, innocents, and putting to rest a multitude of demons. Since when did idolizing about being a hero become evil?

AslanCross
2009-07-06, 11:23 PM
I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

If I'm not mistaken, the most virulent and pervasive source of this was Jack Chick's set of tracts with comics depicting D&D as a true occult hobby and as a recruitment front for cults. I'd rather not post it here since it goes into real world religion discussions, and even as a practicing Christian myself I find them completely ridiculous.


Well, one of her thing is "Do you have a conscience in this game? Can you do whatever you want and get away with it? Is there a clear distinction between good and evil?"

It really depends on the group, the setting, and the DM. I really dislike evil campaigns, and even though I've tried CRPGs like Baldur's Gate using evil characters, I ultimately didn't enjoy and quit about 1/4 through the game.

Now by default, D&D 3.5 is very rigid on its alignment system, albeit its definitions in the book are rather lacking. This is where the DM and players can come in and definite them clearly so that games aren't bogged down in senseless arguments.

I think it would be good to tell the mom that D&D is typically a game about traditional fantasy heroism, based heavily on Tolkien and other archetypal heroes.

Now there are certain settings where morality is quite a bit more blurred than your traditional fantasy: Eberron, for example, as well as some parts of Faerun (Amn, Calimshan, etc). In such conditions, you'll have to determine whether the rakshasa cult inflitrating the parliament is a bigger threat than the warforged pimp trading flesh to particularly loathsome characters. Ultimately, it's still up to the character to do what his character would do, but of course, in settings of intrigue, actions shouldn't be without consequences. Kind of ruins the whole "conspiracy" immersion element.

It's up to you if you can think such a setting would be okay with the mom. I told my mom that I found nothing wrong with the game, and that it is simply a game of interactive storytelling based on heroic fantasy. She definitely sees it in a better light than MMORPGs now, after a long talk we had about why video games are addictive to adolescents.

toasty
2009-07-07, 12:43 AM
40k isn't real. Its fake. Fantasy. In fact its so far from this world that its funny, in a cruel way.

The same can be said of DnD.

This is my continuous argument for anything that like HP/DnD/40k/RPGs. They are fantasy stories that are meant to be treated as such. Dark Heresy (40k's RPG) has a disclaimer in the beginning attesting to this. Dark Heresy is fantasy and THE AUTHORS believe when you begin to think that it might not be fantasy you should STOP PLAYING.

If that argument won't work I'm not sure what will. I could argue religion (which is illegal here... so I won't) but honestly I don't think it'd work very good for 40k. DnD... maybe but not 40k.