So what level IS the oots?

[Shinizak]

V is clearly powerful without the splice, Durkon and Elan have been defending a fleet of paladins, and Haley took on an entire thieves guild with nothing more then a lawyer and a coma patient in tow. What do you think their level is?

[Jaltum]

It seems to have slipped off the main page, but there's a class and level geekery thread dedicated to trying and calculate that based on the in-comic clues. Best guesses are 14-15 range.

EDIT: and here it is: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95005

[Quild]

I think the "coma patient" did a lot too in thieve's guild.

There were some interessant discussions here too :
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116399

[Random832]

Level 14-ish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95005). Roy's lower level because he's been out of the action for the past 200 strips and he lost a level for dying/resurrecting.

[dps]

Durkon and Elan have been defending a fleet of paladins

Uh, actually, Durkon, Elan, a couple of Paladins and a few soldiers have been defending a fleet of civilian refugees.

[TengYt]

Given Eugene's comments, Roy was the "most powerful" Good character on the field at Azure City. Discounting Soon, this seems to suggest he was at a higher level than the rest of the party at least, although Belkar may have been at the same or higher level. (V too, depending if he was Neutral during that arc)

[Timberboar]

Given Eugene's comments, Roy was the "most powerful" Good character on the field at Azure City.

I don't understand why people give Eugene's comment in that strip Word of God status.

I mean, Eugene schemed with Shojo and has a basic understanding of the abilities of the OotS members, but he hardly had time (or even the ability) to divine the levels of every influential paladin on the field.

It seems obvious to me that he made an assumption based on Roy's status as a PC and leader of the Order.

[David Argall]

Party level is flexible. Originally the party was supposed to be 6-9th level. For whatever reason, our writer moved them up to 13th at the Azure City battle, but it is only an assumption they have gained much since then.
Keep in mind that we don't want them gaining much. The stronger the party the harder it is to give them a challenge. And for most story purposes, they just don't need to be any stronger. So the party may stay "13th level" for the rest of the way.



Eugene schemed with Shojo and has a basic understanding of the abilities of the OotS members, but he hardly had time (or even the ability) to divine the levels of every influential paladin on the field.
While Eugene shouldn't be treated as WoG, he should have had little trouble finding out that Miko beat Hinjo and was beaten by Roy, and that Miko was the top paladin. So Eugene has solid evidence to back up his statement here. [We should be more concerned with Eugene's casual disregard for the truth, but we also have Roy accepting his father's opinion, which pretty much confirms Eugene here.]

[Zevox]

V is definitely 14 exactly (assuming the "no experience during the splice" rule held true the whole way through), pinpointed by the number of level 6 and 7 spells she cast before being shut down by the Dragon pre-splice. Elan is likely 14 - definitely exactly 13 as a Bard due to his recent acquisition of two 5th-level spells, plus 1 or more as a Dashing Swordsman. Durkon is 13 minimum, since he can cast 7th-level spells like Resurrection. Most likely the others aren't much different, though Roy may be one or two below the rest post-resurrection, depending on where he was before his death.

Zevox

[Ancalagon]

Note that Belkar got hit with a level drain right after he got his new one... so he probably stagnated on "13 to 14" as he was at the beginning of the battle...

[Zevox]

Note that Belkar got hit with a level drain right after he got his new one... so he probably stagnated on "13 to 14" as he was at the beginning of the battle...
Yeah, but he gets a pretty easy fortitude save to get that level back 24 hours after taking that hit. Odds are he made it and lost nothing ultimately.

Zevox

[Ancalagon]

Yeah, but he gets a pretty easy fortitude save to get that level back 24 hours after taking that hit. Odds are he made it and lost nothing ultimately

Well, we do not know... I surely do not want to turn Mr. Scruffy into Schrödinger's Cat, so I stop speculating right now if Belkar made the save or not... ;)

[Skorj]

V is definitely 14 exactly (assuming the "no experience during the splice" rule held true the whole way through), pinpointed by the number of level 6 and 7 spells she cast before being shut down by the Dragon pre-splice. Elan is likely 14 - definitely exactly 13 as a Bard due to his recent acquisition of two 5th-level spells, plus 1 or more as a Dashing Swordsman. Durkon is 13 minimum, since he can cast 7th-level spells like Resurrection. Most likely the others aren't much different, though Roy may be one or two below the rest post-resurrection, depending on where he was before his death.

Zevox


Thanks Zevox! That's far more useful than crawling through a 900-page geekery thread.:smallsmile:

[FeAnPi]

As regards Roy, assumed that his father was telling the thruth, he could be now on his 14th level, or near it.
After all, the whole "fight to death the vile lich in order to defend a city of good folk and fulfilling my bload oath" sounds like a huuuuge XP prize due to interpretation for a LG character. ^_^v

[Jaltum]

There's no need to "crawl through" anything; all of the information is summarized in the first post, which is edited regularly when there's new information.

The other reason I linked to that thread is so that people who don't know about it can see it and join in the discussion, rather than ending up with the same conversations happening in two different threads.

[Yoyoyo]

There's no need to "crawl through" anything; all of the information is summarized in the first post, which is edited regularly when there's new information.

The other reason I linked to that thread is so that people who don't know about it can see it and join in the discussion, rather than ending up with the same conversations happening in two different threads.

Much appreciated. Very interesting, particularly the summary.

[Spiky]

Given Eugene's comments, Roy was the "most powerful" Good character on the field at Azure City. Discounting Soon, this seems to suggest he was at a higher level than the rest of the party at least, although Belkar may have been at the same or higher level. (V too, depending if he was Neutral during that arc)

No, it doesn't. Equal level also means he is highest. You are making assumptions about the definitions of words that are not supported in the D&D context.

Compare it to a golf tournament. At a certain point in time, you may have 4 players tied for the lead, say at 1 under par. They are all in 1st place. The next player, at even par, is stated as being in 5th place, not 2nd. There simply is no 2nd, 3rd, 4th at that time.

If all 4 Good OOTS members, and maybe Hinjo or O-Chul, are 13th level when Eugene says "highest", it is still completely accurate to say that about only one of them. Now, if we were talking about precise XP count, it would be a different story as they would likely be slightly different. More like NASCAR or tennis rankings. But that isn't what was said.

Although he is a bloody liar, esp to Roy, so I wouldn't believe a damn thing he says. Simply ignoring that comment is the most reasonable response. Use something else to help estimate Roy's level. Esp given the context of what else Eugene said, he was just ripping on Roy to be a jerk.

[Bibliomancer]

No, it doesn't. Equal level also means he is highest. You are making assumptions about the definitions of words that are not supported in the D&D context.

Compare it to a golf tournament. At a certain point in time, you may have 4 players tied for the lead, say at 1 under par. They are all in 1st place. The next player, at even par, is stated as being in 5th place, not 2nd. There simply is no 2nd, 3rd, 4th at that time.

If all 4 Good OOTS members, and maybe Hinjo or O-Chul, are 13th level when Eugene says "highest", it is still completely accurate to say that about only one of them. Now, if we were talking about precise XP count, it would be a different story as they would likely be slightly different. More like NASCAR or tennis rankings. But that isn't what was said.

Actually, 'highest' indicates THE highest, not 'tied for first place.' If his party members were the same level, his father probably would have said 'one of the highest.' His tone indicated (to me) that Roy was clearly the highest level. I think that Roy would have disputed this afterward if Elan and Haley were tied with him (he didn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html)).

[factotum]

I'd agree with Bibliomancer there--if Roy wasn't the highest level Good character on the field, and he would presumably know this, he would have said so in response to his father. Instead, he accepted the criticism.

[Morquard]

I'd agree with Bibliomancer there--if Roy wasn't the highest level Good character on the field, and he would presumably know this, he would have said so in response to his father. Instead, he accepted the criticism.
Roy is a guy who thinks a party leader is responsible for his party.
So even if Haley was 5 levels above him, he wouldn't say "But... Haley was higher than me!", he'd say "Grumble, you're right, I was the commander of the highest character, and it was my responsibility".
Now assuming Haley is not higher than him but the same level, he'd probably let it completely slip, but with the same feeling.
And if Belkar is the one higher or same level... well Belkar ain't good :P

Thats most likely why he accepts it, it does not mean he's necessarily higher then the rest of the order, can be the same level.

[Asta Kask]

I think Roy is about 14 - remember that he learned a cool new sword move which would take a feat to "stick with him." When he gains 15th level, he takes the feat and gets the sword move.

[Aris Katsaris]

If all 4 Good OOTS members, and maybe Hinjo or O-Chul, are 13th level when Eugene says "highest",

Only if Eugene had said "one of the highest".
Since he said simply "the highest", it indicates that Roy was alone in that position.

[[TS] Shadow]

Just because Eugene says that Roy was the highest level Good character on the field doesn't mean he's THAT MUCH more powerful than his friends. For example, if Roy just barely got to the next level, and Haley was 500 XP short, Roy's still a level ahead of her. They had plenty of time to catch up (and exceed) Roy's level. Seriously, that evil adventuring party was disposed of in ~3 panels. That can't be enough to justify him being equal with his friends; the level loss places him at the bottom level of the party in level terms.

[factotum]

I'm not sure what the speed they dispatched the evil adventuring party says about Roy's level. Plane Shift is only a 5th level spell for a cleric, so that whole party could have been around 9th level--easy pickings for a pair of level 14+ fighters, plus whatever Roy's Archon counts as.

[Salty]

I think Roy is about 14 - remember that he learned a cool new sword move which would take a feat to "stick with him." When he gains 15th level, he takes the feat and gets the sword move.

Don't forget that Roy is a fighter, so he gets a bony feat at every even level.

[FlawedParadigm]

Don't forget that Roy is a fighter, so he gets a bony feat at every even level.

I think it's Xykon who gets bony feats at every even level. Roy probably gets bonus feats.

-Flees!-

[Lamech]

How do we get 14 from V casting 3 7ths and 4 6ths. If his starting int was 17 we get that many, with a +4 item.:smallconfused:

[Red XIV]

although Belkar may have been at the same or higher level.
Obviously that wouldn't contradict Eugene's statement, because Belkar is in in no way Good-aligned.

But Belkar seems to be slightly behind the rest of the Order. Remember how everybody else got a level-up after the Dungeon of Durokan, but Belkar didn't quite have enough XP. And his mass slaughter of hobogoblins during the Battle of Azure City probably didn't change anything in that regard, because they were almost all low-level mooks. And while Belkar presumably gets XP for the Eye of Fear and Flame, Roy probably gets more XP for the Death Knight.

[Callista]

As regards Roy, assumed that his father was telling the thruth, he could be now on his 14th level, or near it.
After all, the whole "fight to death the vile lich in order to defend a city of good folk and fulfilling my bload oath" sounds like a huuuuge XP prize due to interpretation for a LG character. ^_^vIt was certainly dramatic, and worth role-play XP. But the only time I ever gave out enough XP to fully compensate a dead PC for a lost level was when it was a deliberate choice to take a huge risk for in-character reasons rather than just to defeat the bad guy. For example, if V had died because s/he went back to help O-Chul, or if Belkar had died after jumping from the Azure City walls into the army of hobgoblins (if I knew it was to get around the MoJ and not just because his player was bored and being stupid), I would've given them at least enough to put them at the beginning of their current level. Sure, death has to hurt; but you really can't do enough to encourage people to make the game interesting. If the way your character died just reeks of Awesome, you get RP XP. Yes. Jumping onto a zombie dragon to fight a lich several levels above you to fulfill a blood oath and protect a cityful of civilians definitely counts.

It's partly because I can't bring myself to penalize the player for something like that, and partly because I want people to be free to let their characters do what they would do, even when it's dangerous. Stupid deaths? No pity. Dying in battle? Sorry, but that's the way the dice roll. Die in a way that's dramatic, sacrificial, or obviously motivated by the character and not the player's interest in gaining levels, though, and you are definitely going to get some XP from me. Maybe not enough to make it irrelevant that you died--true resurrection has to count for something--but definitely some.

[Olorin Maia]

I agree with Callista. If the DM gave Belkar role playing XP for spinning a sob story about how he wants to kill his halfling friends, then I would be surprised if Roy didn't gain substantial XP for jumping onto the back of a moving dragon to attack a Lich.

[Bibliomancer]

Obviously that wouldn't contradict Eugene's statement, because Belkar is in in no way Good-aligned.

But Belkar seems to be slightly behind the rest of the Order. Remember how everybody else got a level-up after the Dungeon of Durokan, but Belkar didn't quite have enough XP. And his mass slaughter of hobogoblins during the Battle of Azure City probably didn't change anything in that regard, because they were almost all low-level mooks. And while Belkar presumably gets XP for the Eye of Fear and Flame, Roy probably gets more XP for the Death Knight.

I am personally of the opinion that Belkar is significantly behind the rest of the party, given that he only reaches the 9th level of ranger here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), even with a few barbarian levels on the side.

I am also in the camp (which might just consist of me, myself, and I) that thinks that Roy was one or two levels above everyone else for most of the story, given Eugene's remark. If this is the case, he would only be one level behind at most, if not the same level as everyone else.

[Olorin Maia]

I am also in the camp (which might just consist of me, myself, and I) that thinks that Roy was one or two levels above everyone else for most of the story, given Eugene's remark. If this is the case, he would only be one level behind at most, if not the same level as everyone else.

You're not alone. I don't know why and could very well be wrong, but Roy always seemed to be the highest level and most competent. I'm sure that its been decided pretty definitively in Class and Level Geekary, but I thought he was higher than the rest.

[factotum]

I am personally of the opinion that Belkar is significantly behind the rest of the party, given that he only reaches the 9th level of ranger here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), even with a few barbarian levels on the side.


Er, he didn't REACH the 9th level of Ranger there, he just realised he had evasion for the first time...not something he'd have had occasion to know since strip #19, when everyone was considerably lower level. We don't know when during those 450 strips he actually got the ability.

Now, I think your main point (that Belkar is lower level than the rest of the party) is right, but for a completely different reason--namely, that Belkar is a multi-classed Ranger/Barbarian, neither of which are favoured classes for halflings; therefore he gets an XP penalty that the others don't.

[fangthane]

I'd agree that Belkar is (or at least should be) getting exp slower than the rest; however, I'd question the credibility people are granting Eugene here.

First, the concept of "highest level" doesn't mean Roy was necessarily the only character at that level; it only means that Eugene's accusation is close enough to the mark that Roy can't effectively debate it.
Second, Eugene isn't above bending the truth a little when it's convenient. Or when he has a point to drive home, and wants to rub Roy's face in his failure.
Third, he's either mistaking or misrepresenting Roy's power relative to Azure City's other defenses. Whether it's because he (and Roy) don't know about the ghost martyrs makes that distinction, but in either case he's wrong. Soon (and by extension, and based on Team Evil's difficulty, his ghost) was epic, and I'm pretty sure nobody's claiming Roy as a member of the 21+ club.

[factotum]

Second, Eugene isn't above bending the truth a little when it's convenient. Or when he has a point to drive home, and wants to rub Roy's face in his failure.
Third, he's either mistaking or misrepresenting Roy's power relative to Azure City's other defenses.

As already pointed out, Eugene may be willing to bend the truth a little, but if he said something that was flat-out wrong Roy would have corrected him on it. As for Soon, the throne room was under an extremely powerful anti-scrying enchantment that not even Xykon could get through, so it's possible Eugene couldn't either. If Eugene didn't know about Soon then it doesn't suddenly mean he was also wrong about Roy being higher level than any of the Good players on the field that Eugene *did* know about, does it?

[Asta Kask]

Don't forget that Roy is a fighter, so he gets a bony feat at every even level.

Yeah, I realized that after I had posted. Anyway, given that Fighters are under-powered in 3.5, he would have to be a few levels above the others to pull his own weight. Although his tactical and social abilities may offset that to a certain degree.

[lord_khaine]

As already pointed out, Eugene may be willing to bend the truth a little, but if he said something that was flat-out wrong Roy would have corrected him on it. As for Soon, the throne room was under an extremely powerful anti-scrying enchantment that not even Xykon could get through, so it's possible Eugene couldn't either. If Eugene didn't know about Soon then it doesn't suddenly mean he was also wrong about Roy being higher level than any of the Good players on the field that Eugene *did* know about, does it?

And if Roy startet to argue that the rest of his party was on the same level as him then Eugene could have used the "but you were their leader" card, that discussion were lost to start with, so Roy did the smart thing, and moved on.

And yes, i really cant see how anyone can take the words of Eugene for WoG either, especaly when he is allready placing the blame of a lost battle on Roy, who didnt actualy command it.

edit.
also, Roy have been leveling up at the same time as the rest of the Order, that makes it more likely that they were the same level.

[pnewman]

Eugene firmly believes that Wizards are more powerful than Fighters of equal level. If Eugene actually believed what he said than either Roy is notably higher level (i.e more than one level higher) than V, or V is not good (at least in Eugene's mind).

Since its fairly clear that V was 13th level during the Battle than either Roy was at least 15th level at the time or Eugene didn't think V was good. If Roy was only one level higher than V, Eugene would have considered V more powerful since she's a Wizard and Roy is merely a Fighter. This would probably make them all (except maybe for Belkar) 14th level now, assuming they've all leveled up for post battle events and that Roy lost a level for dying.

[lord_khaine]

Eugene firmly believes that Wizards are more powerful than Fighters of equal level. If Eugene actually believed what he said than either Roy is notably higher level (i.e more than one level higher) than V, or V is not good (at least in Eugene's mind).

the problem is here Eugene newer talks about power, he talks about level.


Since its fairly clear that V was 13th level during the Battle than either Roy was at least 15th level at the time or Eugene didn't think V was good. If Roy was only one level higher than V, Eugene would have considered V more powerful since she's a Wizard and Roy is merely a Fighter. This would probably make them all (except maybe for Belkar) 14th level now, assuming they've all leveled up for post battle events and that Roy lost a level for dying.

If that were the case the order would not have been leveling up at the same time.