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Coidzor
2009-07-06, 01:11 PM
VirOath just mentioned taking sovereign glue, a ten foot pole, and the severed head and neck of something like a bear, combining them, and then using animate dead to make a reach weapon with a bite attack. (this in the TWF with 2 Shields thread)

How would you make this idea a "reality"?

I was thinking that the wielder might have to make a touch attack to allow the bear/zombie head the chance to bite.

Coplantor
2009-07-06, 01:18 PM
Well, the touch attack then bear attack makes sense, but the fact that the head has a terrible AC and probably low HP it has will make it easy to kill. You know what would be intresting? If the head gains hit dice! I mean, after a couple of lvls. the head's attack bonus will become useless.

Wich feats would you make the head take?
Improved natural attack, weapon focus and the such I guess. Also, the necromancer making the head should have the corpse crafter feats. It adds hp, and improves some of the head's attacks.

Asheram
2009-07-06, 01:24 PM
VirOath just mentioned taking sovereign glue, a ten foot pole, and the severed head and neck of something like a bear, combining them, and then using animate dead to make a reach weapon with a bite attack. (this in the TWF with 2 Shields thread)

How would you make this idea a "reality"?

I was thinking that the wielder might have to make a touch attack to allow the bear/zombie head the chance to bite.

ooooh.. and then cast sundering on it, and watch as the zombie chews though armor!
But no, no ranged touch attack, but an normal melee attack.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 01:30 PM
Well, the touch attack then bear attack makes sense, but the fact that the head has a terrible AC and probably low HP it has will make it easy to kill.

Well, I think it probably counts as somewhere inbetween a tiny and a small target, so there's that AC bonus to go with the fact that it's bite is still what it was when it was attached to the body. But yeah, AC not great.

I didn't even think about awaken undead on it...x.x

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-06, 01:35 PM
Behead dragon.

Shrink Item.

Animate Dead(Zombie Dragon).

Awaken Undead(Zombie Dragon).

You now have a HD gaining, breath-weapon-having, blindsensing Head Spear.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-06, 01:37 PM
Well, the touch attack then bear attack makes sense, but the fact that the head has a terrible AC and probably low HP it has will make it easy to kill. You know what would be intresting? If the head gains hit dice! I mean, after a couple of lvls. the head's attack bonus will become useless.

Wich feats would you make the head take?
Improved natural attack, weapon focus and the such I guess. Also, the necromancer making the head should have the corpse crafter feats. It adds hp, and improves some of the head's attacks.

No Int = no skill points, no feats.

Sorry.

Talon Sky
2009-07-06, 01:41 PM
Behead dragon.

Shrink Item.

Animate Dead(Zombie Dragon).

Awaken Undead(Zombie Dragon).

You now have a HD gaining, breath-weapon-having, blindsensing Head Spear.

And this shall be my new main weapon. Thank you. ;p

Coplantor
2009-07-06, 01:43 PM
No Int = no skill points, no feats.

Sorry.

Why should it be an unintelligent undead? You can awaken it, you can create an undead with an int score...

Now I want to play a beheaded necropolitan psion with a bite attack that works as another player's wand/spear.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-06, 01:46 PM
Why should it be an unintelligent undead? You can awaken it, you can create an undead with an int score...

Now I want to play a beheaded necropolitan psion with a bite attack that works as another player's wand/spear.

True. I missed the part about awaken undead.

I'd make sure it had Lifesense, for one.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-06, 02:02 PM
Behead dragon.

Shrink Item.

Animate Dead(Zombie Dragon).

Awaken Undead(Zombie Dragon).

You now have a HD gaining, breath-weapon-having, blindsensing Head Spear.

It lacks the organ needed to preform its breath weapon (read the Draconomicon). No breath weapon for you.

VirOath
2009-07-06, 02:10 PM
And I am a sick, twisted person. And I love it!

If someone would be willing to draw up a Zombie Head on A Stick, ideally being wielded by an Aasimar in -eeeeeevil- robes, as an avatar, then PM me please! :smallbiggrin:

Kyouhen
2009-07-06, 02:14 PM
It lacks the organ needed to preform its breath weapon (read the Draconomicon). No breath weapon for you.

Unless you wrapped said organ around the stick in question. :smalltongue:

13_CBS
2009-07-06, 02:18 PM
It lacks the organ needed to preform its breath weapon (read the Draconomicon). No breath weapon for you.

I was wondering about that. If I were a DM, I would rule that an undead dragon head can't use a breath weapon due to the lack of said organ, but by RAW, I don't think there are any rules saying that a Dragon can't use its breath weapon without that organ. The "no organ, no breath weapon" rule seems to be more of a fluff thing than a mechanical thing (that, and Draconomicon IS 3.0...)

Korivan
2009-07-06, 02:20 PM
Zombie heads on sticks that attack....wow....absolutly wow....Your all crazier then I am....and thats why I love this game....

Nymph on a stick????

AstralFire
2009-07-06, 02:20 PM
please tell me this was partially sluggy inspired.

VirOath
2009-07-06, 02:43 PM
Yes, partly sluggy, partly challenge that no one would argue a point (To which I did) and partly flintlocke and insanity.

Next on the Docet. Zombie Wood-Chucks! Beaver-Pole-arms! With plant bane!

Person_Man
2009-07-06, 02:44 PM
Actually, I once had a party of PCs find a rust monster baby that hatched immediately after they killed it's mother. It imprinted on them and was friendly. I assumed someone would ask to take it as an animal companion or familiar or mount or cohort. But someone just tied it to a stick and used it as a weapon, which ended up getting destroyed after about two combats. Quite fun though.

VirOath
2009-07-06, 02:48 PM
Wait! Take some wagon wheels, tack them on to a big chair, then glue as many Bear Arms as you can to the arm rests. Animate Object.

"I attack him with my Bear Arms."


PS: Personman, AWESOME! That so beats wanting a Rust Monster as a pet with my fighter. Seriously, I don't know why but I find them kinda cute >.<

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-06, 02:59 PM
I was wondering about that. If I were a DM, I would rule that an undead dragon head can't use a breath weapon due to the lack of said organ, but by RAW, I don't think there are any rules saying that a Dragon can't use its breath weapon without that organ. The "no organ, no breath weapon" rule seems to be more of a fluff thing than a mechanical thing (that, and Draconomicon IS 3.0...)

Draconomicon is actually a 3.5 supplement, not 3.0. It looks 3.0, but the date in it is 3.5.

There is a rule for it, for Zombified Dragons, Dracoliches, and Ghost Dragons only though.

MissK
2009-07-06, 03:19 PM
Is anyone else reminded of the Rat Flail from VG Cats?

This reminds me of a campaign I was in that involved the use of flaming rat arrows. So useful, for many purposes.

warrl
2009-07-06, 03:34 PM
Is anyone else reminded of the Rat Flail from VG Cats?

This reminds me of a campaign I was in that involved the use of flaming rat arrows. So useful, for many purposes.
More details PLEASE. Our party has a fire-breathing rat (ordinary rat size and intelligence) as a pet.

(Come to think of it, that may be why my barbarian/cleric went into the final battle with Create Water on his list of prepared spells.)

MissK
2009-07-06, 03:40 PM
Well, our sorceror was a fan of Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, and often used it to block doorways, close of vats of necrotic goo, etc. According to the rules, though, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere must enclose "a creature," not just be cast around empty space. As we were in a dungeon at the time, rats were presumed to be abundant. Yadda, yadda, yadda...we ended up throwing arrow-skewered rats - set on fire to "improve visibility" - with almost alarming regularity.

kopout
2009-07-06, 03:46 PM
Zombie Medusa head on a stick. Welded by a Grimlock.

Talon Sky
2009-07-06, 03:46 PM
Is anyone else reminded of the Rat Flail from VG Cats?


You die of the plague ;p

Sewercop
2009-07-06, 04:33 PM
I would try to make the argument for it to be an Item familiar.
From the srd http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm

Types Of Item Familiars

An item familiar must be a permanent magic item. Typically, it tends to be a magic weapon (such as a sword, axe, or bow), a rod (one that does not depend on charges for its powers), or a ring with a permanent magical power. The GM may allow for various wondrous items to be item familiars, and in such a case can adapt the following rules fairly easily.

In order to be an item familiar, a magic item must:

* Have a price of at least 2,000 gp.
* Be usable by the character (if it is a weapon, the character must be proficient with the appropriate category of weapon).
* Have a permanent magical effect that the character can (and knows how to) use.

Keep in mind that the item only needs to meet the basics of this criteria. The magic item may have functions the character cannot currently use, and once the item is linked to the character he can separate from it for short periods of time without any harm.


Okay.. Most gm`s probably gonna think it`s cheesy,, But hey, If I were to see this from a players perspective I kinda find it awesome :)

i don`t know if its legal, but as a gm i would consider it to fall under the rule of cool. Even if it were not legal by raw. But i believe that an argument can be made for it to be legal. I may be wrong thou.

VirOath
2009-07-06, 04:40 PM
Item Familiars can be gotten by almost any character, and I see them as beyond cheap.

The problem with them is that they have massive, game tipping bonuses. Free EXP, bonus to skills, spell slots, etc. This is supposed to be balanced by the fact that the character is investing his progression into the item, so he only has access to it when he has the item.

Remove the item, you remove what he put in. And cripple the character. Never invoke the weakness, and then is it really a weakness? There is no middle ground on it. It's a bad concept.

The ONLY way I'd let it into a campaign is if it was handed to everyone at the table for free. The ZHOAS could qualify as an Item Familiar, almost any item can.

Heliomance
2009-07-06, 04:47 PM
Well, the touch attack then bear attack makes sense, but the fact that the head has a terrible AC and probably low HP it has will make it easy to kill. You know what would be intresting? If the head gains hit dice! I mean, after a couple of lvls. the head's attack bonus will become useless.

Wich feats would you make the head take?
Improved natural attack, weapon focus and the such I guess. Also, the necromancer making the head should have the corpse crafter feats. It adds hp, and improves some of the head's attacks.

Why on earth would its AC be a problem? You're wielding it, any attempt to kill it is clearly a sunder attempt.

Sewercop
2009-07-06, 04:52 PM
I agree to that its a bad concept. I just felt it would be cool.
Anyway, zhoas are cool just by being what it is.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-06, 09:16 PM
VirOath just mentioned taking sovereign glue, a ten foot pole, and the severed head and neck of something like a bear, combining them, and then using animate dead to make a reach weapon with a bite attack. (this in the TWF with 2 Shields thread)

How would you make this idea a "reality"?

I was thinking that the wielder might have to make a touch attack to allow the bear/zombie head the chance to bite.

Animate a (relatively small) head with a bite attack, tie it to a stick and have fun. The real question is the stats of the zombie head. I would make most zombie heads, say like that of a wolf, to have 1 HD. So basically you got a touch attack to make a melee attack at +3 to do something like 1d6+2 damage. Have fun.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 09:24 PM
Nymph on a stick????

The only kind of Nymph for me. :smallwink:

What kind of heads would be good for this sort of thing. So far we've got zombified dragon (for occasional breath attacks), medusa (gaze attacks stay intact with the undead form?), and bear.


<_< >_> And what kind of enchantments would you put on it?

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-06, 09:30 PM
What kind of heads would be good for this sort of thing. So far we've got zombified dragon (for occasional breath attacks), medusa (gaze attacks stay intact with the undead form?), and bear.
Sorry "zombies" and "skeletons" loose all special attacks by RAW (except maybe from the ones from the Draconomicon, don't know).

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 09:35 PM
Sorry "zombies" and "skeletons" loose all special attacks by RAW (except maybe from the ones from the Draconomicon, don't know).

Well they keep Extradordinary abilities that influence their combat effectiveness.

And the dragon bits from Draconomicon. Just gotta harvest the organ and place it further down the pole.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-06, 09:43 PM
Well they keep Extradordinary abilities that influence their combat effectiveness.
The wyvern zombie looses it's poison sting...

I mean if you allow the "zombie" to have X ability you might be crossing the line from cool to overpowered...

OTOH it was cool when Perseus did it...

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 09:47 PM
The wyvern zombie looses it's poison sting...

I mean if you allow the "zombie" to have X ability you might be crossing the line from cool to overpowered...


Special Attacks

A zombie retains none of the base creature’s special attacks.

Special Qualities

A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A zombie gains the following special quality.

So while special attacks would be out, actually making the medusa, y'know, just a circumstance bonus to intimidation (and 60' of darkvision...though I think undead get that anyway) unless I'm forgetting something, except in the case of zomblebee dragons due to draconomicon.

Special qualities might still be applicable/of use.


Hmm...Spell-stitching.... Pricey though it might be, if one could find a low-wisdom undead-type or base-thing to make undead (depending upon DM ruling), spell-stitching might not be so bad. Then again, if one did a higher wisdom undead it'd be a more expensive staff with a bite attack.

They'd retain all of their special attacks (that could be used with their head-areas at least), qualities, and abilities. And if they were the higher-Wis stufff they'd gain spell-like abilities.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-07, 01:56 AM
Zombie dragons per the Draconomicon retain a lesser version of their breath weapon. One of those on a stick could prove useful.

obnoxious
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Coidzor
2009-07-07, 03:43 AM
Zombie dragons per the Draconomicon retain a lesser version of their breath weapon. One of those on a stick could prove useful.

obnoxious
sig

Or, y'know, gotta catch'em all! :smallbiggrin:

Yrcrazypa
2009-07-07, 06:15 AM
Dual wielding a black dragon zombie head on a stick and a red dragon zombie head on a stick, forcing both of them to use their breath weapons at the same time (assuming it is possible)? Yes please.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-07, 06:29 AM
Dual wielding a black dragon zombie head on a stick and a red dragon zombie head on a stick, forcing both of them to use their breath weapons at the same time (assuming it is possible)? Yes please.

Even if that particular use isn't, the shrink item/animate dead combo would work. The breath weapon isn't based on size at all. Just tie the tiny zombie dragon to a stick, stow it in a bag or scabbard or haversack, draw when needed.

Though at that point I would awaken them and have them ride on my shoulders.

obnoxious
sig

kopout
2009-07-07, 07:50 PM
Wait! Take some wagon wheels, tack them on to a big chair, then glue as many Bear Arms as you can to the arm rests. Animate Object.

"I attack him with my Bear Arms."



Ok, interesting idea. Hears another take a dead animal, whole thing, and attach armor to it. Lets say you started with a horse.
Zombie horse stats

Size/Type: Large undead
Hit Dice: 6d12+6
Initiative: +1
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+8
Attack: Hoof –2 melee (1d4+1*)
Full Attack: 2 hooves –2 melee (1d4+1*)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Single Actions Only, Damage Reduction 5/Slashing
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +5
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Toughness.
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated or herd (6–30)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Now we weld sheet metal to it.


Size/Type: Large undead
Hit Dice: 6d12+6
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural, +8 armor), touch 18, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+8
Attack: Hoof –2 melee (1d4+1*)
Full Attack: 2 hooves –2 melee (1d4+1*)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Single Actions Only, Damage Reduction 5/Slashing
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +5
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Toughness.
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated or herd (6–30)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —


And now we start attaching bear arms and dragon heads and lances.

Coidzor
2009-07-07, 07:54 PM
There do seem to be a paucity of stitched together necromantic monstrosities comprised of obviously very different things which shouldn't go together.

Sort of like a tauric creature where you throw the natural weapons of several animals together on a base creature's chassis....

About the only thing I can think of is a Boneyard, which somehow takes all of those misshapen, non-fitting-together-like-that bones, and makes a giant bone-serpent out of 'em.

Alleine
2009-07-07, 07:57 PM
Though at that point I would awaken them and have them ride on my shoulders.

Armor spikes, a different dragon head impaled/sovreign glue'd to several front and back. so that you can't be flanked.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-07, 08:06 PM
Ok, interesting idea. Hears another take a dead animal, whole thing, and attach armor to it. Lets say you started with a horse... I don't think unawakened zombies retain/gain armor proficiency, so you may need to limit it to masterwork studded leather barding unless you want the creature to suffer the armor check penalty to its chance to hit (etc).


There do seem to be a paucity of stitched together necromantic monstrosities comprised of obviously very different things which shouldn't go together.
Well put. The rules in 'improving monsters' for adding abilities seems a simple enough way to accomplish this.

There's also the chimeric template in MMII.

obnoxious
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