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Jeivar
2009-07-06, 04:07 PM
I've already revealed my poor grasp of the subtleties of the D&D system, so I might as well ask for opinions on this one. Which class, core or not, is the overall best in front-line fighting?

Eldariel
2009-07-06, 04:08 PM
I've already revealed my poor grasp of the subtleties of the D&D system, so I might as well ask for opinions on this one. Which class, core or not, is the overall best in front-line fighting?

Eh, talking about fighting or fighting without using magic? For fighting, Druid. For fighting without using Magic, Warblade.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-06, 04:10 PM
That really does depend on what you mean. A Fighter is an excellent front-line combatant... it's just that spellcasters can do that and other stuff.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-06, 04:10 PM
Core only? Barbarian.

Outside Core? Crusader/Warblade/Barbarian.


Fighter is a semi-second choice, but those three are the main non-caster front liners. Druids and Clerics can do the job too.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-06, 04:15 PM
Artificer can also do a pretty decent job of mixing it up in melee if you spec him out right.

AslanCross
2009-07-06, 04:15 PM
Fighter is severely gimped in a core-only game due to its lack of good feats. Outside core it gets better, but is still second fiddle to the warblade and crusader.

The Fighter can be optimized to achieve insane damage output, but that would be all it can do. Warblade can effectively achieve great damage without even being optimized well. A fighter/warblade multiclass would be an excellent warrior.

The Crusader has actual tanking abilities that increase its survivability.

The Knight is also a good tank, but it's more of a battlefield control tank than an actual "I am invincible" tank. Knight/Crusader multiclass is likely going to be very effective in tanking.

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 04:29 PM
Hail the Barbarian!
Hail the Crusader!
Lay ye laurels at the feet of the most excellent warblade!

I'm also a fan of the swordsage, the druid, the swift hunter scout/ranger, and of course complicated gish builds.

But really, I just love an uber-charger or a good avalanche of blades build with some nasty mobility tricks.

Korivan
2009-07-06, 04:31 PM
Duskblads...especially when you can gestalt and Prc to WM. They have a melee heavy spell list, good BAB, and two good saves.

Deepblue706
2009-07-06, 04:36 PM
I think that most who refer to the category of "Warrior" are talking about Full BAB classes, also known as "Martial".

Spellcasters can be badass "warriors", sure; but war isn't necessarily their profession.

I believe among Warrior classes, we have:

Barbarian
Crusader
Fighter
Hexblade
Knight
Paladin
Ranger
Samurai
Swashbuckler
Warblade

The Tome of Battle classes are inherently useful, and their abilities tend to be strong. Warblade probably has the number 1 spot.

Prior to ToB, however, I would say the strongest of this group is the Fighter. The weakest could also be Fighter. The variety of feats available can make the class pretty awesome or pretty terrible, so you have to know what you're doing to make the most use out of it. In some cases, he might give a Warblade a run for his money, but the chances of that are not strong. A Fighter could take any single number out of a ranking between 1-10, it just depends on how you use his feats.

Sticking to Core, the Barbarian is likely among the best, due to his increased speed, high damage potential and useful abilities. However, with the PHB2, I'd say he and the Fighter are about even. The Knight has superior team-work skills (what with his defensive stuff), but I'd also say all of his benefits weight fairly equally with these two, as well. Paladins, Rangers and Hexblades have their perks, but overall I'd say they lack punch. Most seem to agree that Swashbuckler is only useful when applied to highly specific builds (usually favoring Rogue), and Samurai needs a 44+ point buy.

If I were to rate their general power, I'd order them like this:

1. Warblade
2. Crusader
3. Barbarian
4. Knight
5. Ranger
6. Paladin
7. Hexblade
8. Swashbuckler
9. Samurai
*. Fighter

*: Somewhere between 3 and 10

Oh, crap, I forgot about Duskblade. Whatever, they're stupid anyway. I'm not going back to write this over for them.

Draz74
2009-07-06, 04:47 PM
Technically, out of 3.5 base classes with full BAB, you're also missing the (NPC) Warrior, the Divine Mind, and the Soulborn. But none of those are very good at all anyway.

Knaight
2009-07-06, 04:47 PM
Staying to non magical classes, with the exception of martial adepts(as their casting style isn't like the others.
Low optimization-Martial Adept
Mid optimization-Martial Adept, Barbarian
High optimization-Fighter, Barbarian.

Martial adepts are not able to do much against the like of Jack B. Quick at high levels, and there are some fighters optimized for low level that are far beyond them. On the other hand, if a fighter takes dodge, power attack, uses a one handed weapon with a shield, never power attacks beyond a 1:1 ratio, and takes combat expertise when they have a dexterity of 14 or so, with crappy reach, they are going to be totally outclassed by the martial adept.

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 04:55 PM
I disagree. Jack B Quick only functions if he can actually make his AoOs, which a well-built and high end warblade can deny him. It's rough, but I'd consider it a somewhat nearer thing than you make it.

Draz74
2009-07-06, 04:56 PM
Martial adepts are not able to do much against the like of Jack B. Quick at high levels,

I dunno about that. Martial adepts can do some pretty munchkin-ly stuff; ever hear of Chuck (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12657563&postcount=321)? Now, the Ubercharger -- yeah, there's no way a martial adept can do that much damage. The martial adept will be more flexible, but slightly less powerful, than a super-optimized Fighter like that.

Jeivar
2009-07-06, 05:04 PM
Hmm. "Warblade" is coming up a lot. Is it in Tome of Battle?

Doc Roc
2009-07-06, 05:07 PM
Yes, which you basically need.

Draz74
2009-07-06, 05:08 PM
Hmm. "Warblade" is coming up a lot. Is it in Tome of Battle?

Yes. It's many people's favorite ToB class because it's totally nonmagical, whereas the other ToB classes have minor access to magical tricks if they so choose.

Person_Man
2009-07-06, 05:15 PM
Assuming you don't want another CoDzilla thread:

Core Only: Paladin. Take Leadership and Spirited Charge. Get an awesome Special Mount. Use your Share Spells ability liberally.

Non-Core: Crusader, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, and maybe the Knight (who suffers from a few dead levels).

A lot of it depends on what books are allowed, and how much you optimize. It also depends on what your build goals are. Some builds are better at direct damage, others at tanking, others at battlefield control, etc.

Harperfan7
2009-07-06, 05:15 PM
Yeah, barbarian if you don't use ToB, Warblade if you do.

Samb
2009-07-06, 05:36 PM
This is a useless question because there is no definition of what a warrior is.

You may say it is full BAB and no casting but what should we make of psychic warrior? What about wilder, who's surging euphoria basically gives it full BAB? Both can metamorph into a war troll for super cheese, something that a ToB could only dream about. Personally I would psywar or wilder over any warblade just for schism and metamorph.

Warblade and duskblade are very nice frontliners with some minor rebuffing abilities if you are willing forego some versitility. Duskblades being a Gish class suffers what all Gish base classes suffer from: the fact that a hybrid PrC is much better.

Fighter is widely regarded as one of the weakest classes period and for good reason. I would go so far to say they rank even under divine mind since many mantles provide feat like benefits. Feats are there to compliment and enchance class features something fighters lack.
Barbarians are nice and easy to play but no where near great and their rage progression is way to slow. You enter barbarian as a dip or to enter a PrC, at higher levels it becomes obvious that barbarians have a hard time keeping up.

The main reason this is a silly question is that the bestfrontliner fighter doesn't stick to one base class he will cherry pick the features of all fighting classes until he reaches his ideal. A swashbukler will take 3 in rogue and daring outlaw for the sneak attack damage, a factotum will take 3 in swashbukler for insightful strike, everyone will take one in barbarian for pounce, fighter2/psywar2 is a great way to get 4 feats in four levels, dips into ToB classes for manuvers etc. The best warrior is the best player period.

Eldariel
2009-07-06, 06:28 PM
Core Only: Paladin. Take Leadership and Spirited Charge. Get an awesome Special Mount. Use your Share Spells ability liberally.

You mean Barbarian? 'cause if you get Barb a mount via. Leadership, the Rage-bonuses are going to outdo Paladin's very limited Core-casting, leaving Pally only doing more when Smiting (which is few times/day on one attack as opposed to few times/day for one encounter).

More HP definitely helps too.


As for adepts vs. Jack B'Quick, there's a 1st level White Raven maneuver that destroys Jack's entire gameplan (Douse the Flames). Also, fourth level boost does the same (Covering Strike). ToB isn't weak against focused characters, because it can solve individual problems. Versatile problems like casters are what rape it.


Jeivar: I have to repeat my question: Do you want non-magical melee or magical melee? Because the different is totally different for the first and the second.

Frosty
2009-07-06, 06:41 PM
Well, you can't switch out maneuvers known during a fight, but if you happen to have access to a few white raven strikes, they are rather nice.

Eldariel
2009-07-06, 06:55 PM
Well, you can't switch out maneuvers known during a fight, but if you happen to have access to a few white raven strikes, they are rather nice.

Certainly everyone with even an inkling of White Raven picks up Covering Strike or Douse the Flames. Douse the Flames is the perfect qualification maneuver to pick for White Raven Tactics anyways (if you didn't take Leading the Attack).

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-06, 06:58 PM
With proper optimization, psychic warrior does have a serious edge in this particular arena.

It can meet and even exceed the ToB classes for power and flexibility, and can curb-stomp most other classes for usefulness (and possibly exceed even the druid in this role, though it won't be quite as OMGWTFPWNZOR in all the categories that one of The Big Five can, which is as it should be).

It might only have d8 for hit die, medium BAB, and have fewer feats than the fighter, but its power list is quite awesome (and you can dip your toes into the psion/discipline lists, if you so desire...HELLO NURSE METAMORPHOSIS!).

[edit] As insane as it sounds, a well-built psywar can even act as a serious threat to full-casters; even wizards & co, though they're still just a tad behind on the power scale, relatively speaking... [/understatement]

Also, you can pull a The Big Guy is With Me build out of a psion, and kick more arse than just about anyone in melee.

Indon
2009-07-06, 07:09 PM
The Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) class is stronger than the NPC Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/warrior.htm).

:P

But seriously, 'best front-line fighter' is surprisingly vague in the context of 3.5 D&D. As has been noted, you go to different classes for immense damage than you do for battlefield versatility, and if you wanted a class capable of 'holding a line' then you'd probably end up looking at a different class there, some casters can do front-line fighting with the help of magic and/or potent class features, and so on.

holywhippet
2009-07-06, 07:45 PM
It can depend on what you are actually facing. If it's a straight out slugging match like against an ogre then improvements to attack bonuses and damage (like barbarian rage) can make a big difference. If you are facing vampires a class with a bonus to will saves like a paladin will be better.

If you are going toe to toe with a caster like a lich then the monk could be your best bet as they have better touch AC and full progression for will and reflex saves along with evasion etc.

Rangers may fare better when facing their racial enemy.

FMArthur
2009-07-06, 07:54 PM
Arcane Swordsage, no contest. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-07-06, 07:59 PM
It can depend on what you are actually facing. If it's a straight out slugging match like against an ogre then improvements to attack bonuses and damage (like barbarian rage) can make a big difference. If you are facing vampires a class with a bonus to will saves like a paladin will be better.

Both have impressive bonuses to Will-save; Barbarian has Morale-bonuses from Rage, while Paladin has Divine Grace for Charisma.


If you are going toe to toe with a caster like a lich then the monk could be your best bet as they have better touch AC and full progression for will and reflex saves along with evasion etc.

Monks have serious issues actually killing Liches though, since they are very ineffective at range and can't move and attack efficiently, due to being inefficient with a single attack. And Stunning Fist doesn't work on Liches either; at most you force the Lich to True Strike before Enervating/Whatevering you (I'd frankly assume Quickened True Strikes anyways if he's Raying unless he has ~+15 to Ranged Touch already without it to avoid those 3-4 fails). Now, if the Monk has Touch AC above ~40, we're talking some defensive benefits.

Vs. a Lich, a Barbarian is probably your best bet, although no matter your class you're boned if the Lich is of high enough level to achieve Lichdom and plays up to his Int. But yeah, the Barbarian probably has the best chance of dealing lethal damage in case he gets to do a hit (being Mounted would obviously help; a single Spirited Charge can deal lethal, although Barbarian is actually fairly scary with arrows too thanks to Str to Damage). A Paladin with insane stats might actually be even better in this very specific scenario given sufficient number of Smite Evil-uses remaining he can have incredible saves overall, and .

ericgrau
2009-07-06, 10:36 PM
I've run a few direct damage duels and barbarians came out a hair above a fighter if he was raging. And far behind if not. At lower levels the difference is greater, but rage is also less frequent. And the fighter can be more versatile by taking extra feats for more than just damage. But a barbarian has uncanny dodge, etc, etc. Likewise I would guess that a smiting buffed paladin is strong whereas an unbuffed one out of smites is weaker and MAD. So really these 3 classes are all pretty close. The one that falls far behind is the ranger, but he's not really a pure warrior; he has other abilities. And as for other core classes I don't even see how they could be mistaken for pure warriors (whether better or worse or on par with the first 3), so I'll stop here.

holywhippet
2009-07-06, 10:57 PM
Monks have serious issues actually killing Liches though, since they are very ineffective at range and can't move and attack efficiently, due to being inefficient with a single attack. And Stunning Fist doesn't work on Liches either; at most you force the Lich to True Strike before Enervating/Whatevering you (I'd frankly assume Quickened True Strikes anyways if he's Raying unless he has ~+15 to Ranged Touch already without it to avoid those 3-4 fails). Now, if the Monk has Touch AC above ~40, we're talking some defensive benefits.


Monks have very high base speed and are likely to have high ranks in tumble. That one single attack is only going to be a problem for a single round most likely as they can close the distance very quickly. Say you have a level 10 monk attacking a level 20 lich. At level 10 you can assume the monk might have a natural DEX and WIS of 16, another 4 each from magical enhancements (eg. potions/spells), a +2 from a ring of protection and +2 from being level 10. That's an AC and touch AC of 24.

The lich has a BAB of 10 assuming they were a wizard or sorcerer. Maybe +2 or 3 if they have a decent DEX. That still amount to >50% chance of missing on any given touch attack.

I only used lich as an example. The same applies to wizards and sorcerer types in general.

AslanCross
2009-07-06, 11:03 PM
Well, you can't switch out maneuvers known during a fight, but if you happen to have access to a few white raven strikes, they are rather nice.

Adaptive Style.

Myrmex
2009-07-06, 11:03 PM
Don't forget that multiclass casters (like picking up a level in Loremaster) further reduces a caster's BAB.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 07:14 AM
Monks have very high base speed and are likely to have high ranks in tumble. That one single attack is only going to be a problem for a single round most likely as they can close the distance very quickly. Say you have a level 10 monk attacking a level 20 lich. At level 10 you can assume the monk might have a natural DEX and WIS of 16, another 4 each from magical enhancements (eg. potions/spells), a +2 from a ring of protection and +2 from being level 10. That's an AC and touch AC of 24.

The lich has a BAB of 10 assuming they were a wizard or sorcerer. Maybe +2 or 3 if they have a decent DEX. That still amount to >50% chance of missing on any given touch attack.

I only used lich as an example. The same applies to wizards and sorcerer types in general.

Did you not read what I typed? The Lich is like to use Quickened True Strike anyways if Raying. That gives him +33 to the ranged Touch with your numbers (he's like to have +6 to Dex item for Initiative anyways, making it +36). And the Monk can only get a full attack IF THE OPPONENT DOES NOT MOVE.

Let's see, a spellcaster with a free move action to burn...should he move out of the way or not? This is, of course, assuming he didn't just Forcecage (or rather Shadow Conjuration)/Disjunction (while flying)/Wall/Gate (Great Wyrm Gold)/whatever the Monk. And that he didn't Teleport out of the way or have his contingency whisk him away. Oh, and a level 10 Monk is going to fail his good save against level 20 Lich's spell (save DC is 10+9+stat which is 18+4 Lich+5 levels+5 inherent+6 item = 38 = +14, so DC 33 before Spell Focus).

But this thread wasn't about casters killing Monks; I'm just pointing out you're better off with something that can 1-shot the caster if he gets the hit, such as mounted Barbarian or Paladin. No matter your defenses, you can't give the caster a turn.


Oh, and level 10 Monk moves just as fast as any other martial character when under Haste (well, slower than Barbarian, but as fast otherwise; Monk can't benefit of it).

Adumbration
2009-07-07, 07:23 AM
Totemist can be quite nice too.

Gnaeus
2009-07-07, 08:19 AM
If you are going toe to toe with a caster like a lich then the monk could be your best bet as they have better touch AC and full progression for will and reflex saves along with evasion etc.

There really isn't anything a monk can do that a Swordsage can't do better.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-07-07, 08:28 AM
Arcane Swordsage, no contest. :smallbiggrin:

The single most wrong variant ever. I love it so.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 08:30 AM
The single most wrong variant ever. I love it so.

It's funny how every arcane adaptation ever goes horribly wrong (Spells to Powers Erudite, Arcane Swordsage, etc.). I wonder why :smalltongue:

SilveryCord
2009-07-07, 08:58 AM
I'd say:
1. Tome of Battle stuff
2. Wildshape Variant Ranger
3. Rogue
4. Incarnum stuff
5. Barbarian
6. Ranger
7. Fighter
8. Paladin
9. Monk
10. Swashbuckler
11. Knight

With special mentions to CW Samurai and Soulknife. Knight is bad, paladin is okay if you Leadership your mount and have some shenanigans going on. Barbarian and Rogue are the best core melee classes, but barbarian builds itself while rogue requires exploiting some of the game. (Sneak attacking with scrolls or alchemical weapons? sign me up yay.) But really, if you want to have a fun, easily balanced game, play with Tome of Battle.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-07, 09:01 AM
I'd say:
1. Tome of Battle stuff
2. Wildshape Variant Ranger
3. Rogue
4. Incarnum stuff
5. Barbarian
6. Ranger
7. Fighter
8. Paladin
9. Monk
10. Swashbuckler
11. Knight

With special mentions to CW Samurai and Soulknife. Knight is bad, paladin is okay if you Leadership your mount and have some shenanigans going on. Barbarian and Rogue are the best core melee classes, but barbarian builds itself while rogue requires exploiting some of the game. (Sneak attacking with scrolls or alchemical weapons? sign me up yay.) But really, if you want to have a fun, easily balanced game, play with Tome of Battle.

I see that my love for the fighter is not so shared (we can say that I agree with Deepblue, they suck or do their job well depending on built, and maybe you need a lot of books to make them effective) so..ok.. 7..

But the Knight? Bad? Why?

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 09:13 AM
I'd say:
1. Tome of Battle stuff
2. Wildshape Variant Ranger
3. Rogue
4. Incarnum stuff
5. Barbarian
6. Ranger
7. Fighter
8. Paladin
9. Monk
10. Swashbuckler
11. Knight

With special mentions to CW Samurai and Soulknife. Knight is bad, paladin is okay if you Leadership your mount and have some shenanigans going on. Barbarian and Rogue are the best core melee classes, but barbarian builds itself while rogue requires exploiting some of the game. (Sneak attacking with scrolls or alchemical weapons? sign me up yay.) But really, if you want to have a fun, easily balanced game, play with Tome of Battle.

Knight is very good at what he does. Definitely above Paladin. Fighter can be extremely strong, but there's like 1-2 specific builds (Dungeoncrasher + Zhentarim Soldier combined with careful feat selection) that really enable it. I'd also place Wildshape Ranger above ToB, as Wildshape is just that good. And as a warrior, I think you're ranking Rogue a tad high. I'd place it between Knight and Paladin.

Person_Man
2009-07-07, 10:46 AM
You mean Barbarian? 'cause if you get Barb a mount via. Leadership, the Rage-bonuses are going to outdo Paladin's very limited Core-casting, leaving Pally only doing more when Smiting (which is few times/day on one attack as opposed to few times/day for one encounter).


No, I mean Paladin.

A Paladin's Mount gets Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, Improved speed, Command creatures of its kind, Spell Resistance, and a bonus to HD, Natural Armor, Str, and Intelligence. Just taking Leadership accomplished none of those things.

The Paladin also has superior Saves (more important then hit points at high levels), immunities, Turn Undead (which is ridiculously useful if you have access to divine feats, though obviously you wouldn't in a core only game), and Smite Evil (whose damage is multiplied on Spirited Charge attacks). The Paladin also has access to Shield Other (use Share Spells, and you and your mount essentially share a pool of hit points), Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) (makes you immune to mind control and summoned creatures), Delay Poison (basically makes you immune to poison for the duration), Bull's Strength/Eagle's Splendor/Owl's Wisdom (buffs), Holy Sword (who doesn't want a free +5 Holy weapon?), and a host of other situationally useful spells. Buy wands (they're cheap), cast often, use Share Spells, and you're a mini-Codzilla.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 11:32 AM
No, I mean Paladin.

A Paladin's Mount gets Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, Improved speed, Command creatures of its kind, Spell Resistance, and a bonus to HD, Natural Armor, Str, and Intelligence. Just taking Leadership accomplished none of those things.

If you take Leadership though, you get a better Mount that beats all those numbers by the virtue of being better. None of the Paladin Mount-abilities are amazing and they don't carry over to Leadershipped Mount.


The Paladin also has superior Saves (more important then hit points at high levels)

*shrug* Barbarian gets +3 to Fort and Morale and then Indomitable Will and finally +4 to both. Seems to me like Paladin has better Reflex and that's it.


immunities

To disease and fear. Whoppedoo.


Turn Undead (which is ridiculously useful if you have access to divine feats, though obviously you wouldn't in a core only game)

Precisely.


and Smite Evil (whose damage is multiplied on Spirited Charge attacks)

So are strength-bonuses, and while Paladin has 5 Smite Evils per day on 20 (that is, 5 attacks that can smite evil) and is limited to using them against evil opponents, Barbarian has 6 Rages that all last all encounter.


The Paladin also has access to Shield Other (use Share Spells, and you and your mount essentially share a pool of hit points), Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) (makes you immune to mind control and summoned creatures), Delay Poison (basically makes you immune to poison for the duration), Bull's Strength/Eagle's Splendor/Owl's Wisdom (buffs), Holy Sword (who doesn't want a free +5 Holy weapon?), and a host of other situationally useful spells. Buy wands (they're cheap), cast often, use Share Spells, and you're a mini-Codzilla.

Out of those:
-Shield Other is useful, but the Barb is still like to have an equivalent amount of HP even at the very end; Mount only has 78 HP on level 20; even a +6 Con item pumps it up to merely 114. Barbarian with 14 starting Con has 28 Con on 20 when Raging assuming no inherents, giving him 315 HP on average. Paladin with 14 starting Con has 204 HP on 20. So given +6 Con on both, Pally and Mount, the pair comes out slightly ahead; unequipped Mount+equipped Pally loses out to Barb. Level 11 = 10 HD mount for 65 HP. Paladin with +4 Con has 109. Raging Barbarian has 154. Level 10 = 8 HD mount for 52 HP, Paladin with +2 Con for 89, Barbarian with +2 Con has 120. Also, since both need to wear a Ring for Shield Other to work, it's unclear if a Mount can ever be affect by the spell. Also, Mount dying has some nasty consequences for the Pally (unable to summon another one for 30 days and -1 on attacks and damage). So a handy tactic, but risky and controversial.
-Bull's Strength-line grows obsolete around about ~level 10 due to availability of equivalent items; not much later than when Paladin first gains access to them. Their standard action casting time + non-hour/level duration also make them somewhat subpar even before.
-Holy Sword is only amazing in 1-man parties (otherwise you'll get Greater Magic Weapon anyways), and even there it's a standard action 1 round/level buff; better get Quick Draw + Quicken Metamagic Rod if you plan on using it.
-Delay Poison...yeah...right. I don't think either of these classes will be needing it, but I guess it's handy for healing allies...but you won't have the slots for both, this and Shield Other until much later.
-Protection from Evil, if you have no casters supporting you, it'll get you that tasty mind control immunity (but due to your CL, anyone intent on MCing you can dispel it with a swift action anyways). So for a solo character, it's relatively useful.


If you want a bruiser in Core, take a Barbarian. If you want a less efficient bruiser with all his relevant abilities geared against Evil in Core, take a Paladin (let's remember that Paladin also has far greater MAD due to requiring higher-than-10-Cha to function in addition to wanting all the same stats as Barbarian (which contributes to Barbarian having superior stats overall); Leadership for max level cohort is perfectly doable on base 10 Cha at least up until level 18, by when you prolly have one of the other bonuses).

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 12:27 PM
Unsurprisingly, I agree with Eld again.
Barbarian > Paladin in my opinion. They're also a LOT more fun to play.

I'd rather be able to buy off my illiteracy than be trapped by a terrifyingly constrained and vague code of conduct. Worse, a paladin is likely to get my group in a LOT of trouble, particularly in a Planescape setting where you might need to consort at least briefly with evil aligned outsiders or unjust rulers or even just a local fence as you try to track down poor Sally The Matchstick Girl.

G'd help you if Sally's had just a little too much and has decided to kill her employers for conducting indenturement. Because that's legal, and technically not slavery. In fact, it might under many moral codes be considered evil. So now the paladin can't deal with Sally or even take her home to her dying mum.

Because he can't willingly spend time around people who are evil.

Samb
2009-07-07, 12:29 PM
I'd say:
1. Tome of Battle stuff
2. Wildshape Variant Ranger
3. Rogue
4. Incarnum stuff
5. Barbarian
6. Ranger
7. Fighter
8. Paladin
9. Monk
10. Swashbuckler
11. Knight

With special mentions to CW Samurai and Soulknife. Knight is bad, paladin is okay if you Leadership your mount and have some shenanigans going on. Barbarian and Rogue are the best core melee classes, but barbarian builds itself while rogue requires exploiting some of the game. (Sneak attacking with scrolls or alchemical weapons? sign me up yay.) But really, if you want to have a fun, easily balanced game, play with Tome of Battle.

Soulknife!? You are familiar with psionics and the best you could come up with is soulknife? I could understand if you didn't know that wilders and ardents rock, but not even mentioning psychic warrior is just dumb. Soulknife is highly house ruled because their main weapon doesn't scale with their level well. That should be an indication of hhow bad they suck. Psywar is one of the few base fighting classes you can take 20 levels in and be game-breaking (ever hear of King of Smack?).

Paladin and fighter should not even be on that list as they suck. I love rogues but they are really not all that when it comes to damage. Swashbulker is one of the most houseruled classes because they have great fluff but no bite past level 3.

To the OP, I would seriously look at other posts before you take this ranking to heart.

Samb
2009-07-07, 12:31 PM
With proper optimization, psychic warrior does have a serious edge in this particular arena.

It can meet and even exceed the ToB classes for power and flexibility, and can curb-stomp most other classes for usefulness (and possibly exceed even the druid in this role, though it won't be quite as OMGWTFPWNZOR in all the categories that one of The Big Five can, which is as it should be).

It might only have d8 for hit die, medium BAB, and have fewer feats than the fighter, but its power list is quite awesome (and you can dip your toes into the psion/discipline lists, if you so desire...HELLO NURSE METAMORPHOSIS!).

[edit] As insane as it sounds, a well-built psywar can even act as a serious threat to full-casters; even wizards & co, though they're still just a tad behind on the power scale, relatively speaking... [/understatement]

Also, you can pull a The Big Guy is With Me build out of a psion, and kick more arse than just about anyone in melee.
This.
If you want a straight hassle free fighter with a lot of tricks and feats psywar is all you need to look.

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 12:33 PM
I would recommend rechecking his wall-o-text, Samb. He (as far as I can discern) meant that CW Samurai and Soulknife deserved mention for being especially terrible. Which they both are. You'll note they didn't make his power rankings at all.

Psy War is not full-bab, and as a result technically can't be listed here, despite having warrior in its name and being absolutely, positively excellent, and vastly superior to monkmost of the listed classes in every way. In fact, I consider Psy Warrior one of the few Truly Good Things to come out of the entire run of 3.5 when it comes to martial classes. The others being ToB-related, mostly.

ericgrau
2009-07-07, 12:44 PM
Did you not read what I typed? The Lich is like to use Quickened True Strike anyways if Raying.
Because touch attacks normally have such a low chance of hitting that they'd need true strike?? No, there's no way he'd prep such a spell unless he specifically expected a monk or similar or unless all theoretical casters have 500 spell slots of every level so they can be ready for every contingency. This is why I've been avoiding point-by-point theoretical debates for a while now. If anything I try to limit myself to a brief comment.

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 12:46 PM
Wands are nice, Eric.
Truestrike doesn't give a bent copper about caster leverl, so wands are nice.

A level 20 lich has 760k minimum to spend on itemization. I'm given to understand that Monks like UMD a lot.
I hear Lichs are sometimes spell-casters :smallredface:. Sometimes they have things that are good. Many times these things will be wands.

Also, god help you if that lich is in the business of mail delivery (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1124745). Because then you are dead.

I don't care at all about theoretical debates. All I know is that you gotta gack the mage. Why bring something that doesn't do that as reliably as something else? Monks are not high tier meleers without serious UMD abuse, from which a barbarian is likely to benefit as much or more. Finally, most of the monk examples rely on wands of spells higher than fourth level, which are illegal. ::shrugs and walks out:: Said my piece. I'm done here.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 01:02 PM
Because touch attacks normally have such a low chance of hitting that they'd need true strike?? No, there's no way he'd prep such a spell unless he specifically expected a monk or similar or unless all theoretical casters have 500 spell slots of every level so they can be ready for every contingency. This is why I've been avoiding point-by-point theoretical debates for a while now. If anything I try to limit myself to a brief comment.

I've yet to see a level 20 Lich without any Quickened True Strikes prepared (it's a 5th level slot for christ's sake; hell, he could use one of his old Rods of Lesser Quicken he's picked up when he was far lower level, using a first level slot, which he has plenty to spare). His attack is like to be +15; no reason to risk failure outside natural 1 (any Dex-focused level 20 character trivially has Touch AC 20 from just Dex).

Indon
2009-07-07, 01:08 PM
If we're talking about a Lich using a quickened true strike with their attacks, then pretty much any class in this thread is dead - the Monk just happens to have defenses in that circumstance comparable with or superior to the more powerful classes that've been mentioned in the thread.

If you want the class best able to survive on the front lines - and you don't care if they can do anything otherwise, then Monk is among the best choices.

This goes back to front-line fighting being a pretty vague topic. There're a lot of things involved in it, and the 'best' class can often be circumstantial.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 01:14 PM
If we're talking about a Lich using a quickened true strike with their attacks, then pretty much any class in this thread is dead - the Monk just happens to have defenses in that circumstance comparable with or superior to the more powerful classes that've been mentioned in the thread.

The discussion was about killing the Lich. As all classes are dead if the Lich acts anyways, you need to pick a class with the biggest chance of killing him. No, you won't win, but the class with the best capability of killing the Lich from a large starting distance is the best class for this thought exercise.

Monk can never kill the Lich from range due to being limited to 1 attack and Lich being immune to crits, Stunning Fist and the like. That's not the best choice as while you have decent defenses, the Lich has tools that get past those defenses anyways thus making your decent defenses moot since Lich will simply target the part of your defenses that IS insufficient. This makes defenses in general moot (unless they are all so high as to give the Lich actual grief, along with immunity to no-save effects), meaning the best offense wins out.

Indon
2009-07-07, 01:23 PM
Monk can never kill the Lich from range due to being limited to 1 attack and Lich being immune to crits, Stunning Fist and the like. That's not the best choice as while you have decent defenses, the Lich has tools that get past those defenses anyways thus making your decent defenses moot since Lich will simply target the part of your defenses that IS insufficient. This makes defenses in general moot (unless they are all so high as to give the Lich actual grief, along with immunity to no-save effects), meaning the best offense wins out.

Indeed - in that case, we'd be looking at either a high-damage Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin build, who'd be unlikely to survive if they didn't outright one-shot the lich and would have little way to reach the lich if he took any significant defensive measures (though, if they have an opening, they can have a chance of one-shotting that lich), or a de facto caster like a ToB class or Psy-War, who might be better able to overcome the Lich's defensive measures, but have less raw power and at best, defenses comparable to the Monk.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-07, 01:27 PM
Indeed - in that case, we'd be looking at either a high-damage Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin build, who'd be unlikely to survive if they didn't outright one-shot the lich and would have little way to reach the lich if he took any significant defensive measures (though, if they have an opening, they can have a chance of one-shotting that lich), or a de facto caster like a ToB class or Psy-War, who might be better able to overcome the Lich's defensive measures, but have less raw power and at best, defenses comparable to the Monk.

I'm fairly sure you're discounting the psychic warrior's prowess (as well as ToB, though I'm not as familiar with them).

A psychic warrior could easily get ahold of metamorphosis. A single feat (Metamorphic Transfer) could easily net him the antimagic cone of a beholder, which would completely shut down every threat-ability that a standard lich could possibly have.

That, and he could have a number of defensive measures, such as greater concealing amorpha (100% concealment = cannot directly target with anything, and has a 50% miss chance on attack rolls to boot).

That's 2 powers, and 1 feat. Not exactly op-fu.

Indon
2009-07-07, 01:30 PM
I'm fairly sure you're discounting the psychic warrior's prowess (as well as ToB, though I'm not as familiar with them).

A psychic warrior could easily get ahold of metamorphosis. A single feat (Metamorphic Transfer) could easily net him the antimagic cone of a beholder, which would completely shut down every threat-ability that a standard lich could possibly have.

That, and he could have a number of defensive measures, such as greater concealing amorpha (100% concealment = cannot directly target with anything, and has a 50% miss chance on attack rolls to boot).

That's 2 powers, and 1 feat. Not exactly op-fu.

What keeps the Lich from moving away, eating a standard AOO (which would only be particularly frightening if dealt by one of the raw power oriented classes mentioned already), and ending the fight in one spell and/or one spell and one quickened spell?

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-07, 01:33 PM
What keeps the Lich from moving away, eating a standard AOO (which would only be particularly frightening if dealt by one of the raw power oriented classes mentioned already), and ending the fight in one spell and/or one spell and one quickened spell?

The fact that you have several other party members who very likely could wrestle it into submission just after your turn. It's not like the lich could defend itself decently well, after all.

Also, it depends on the terrain; if the room is only 100' x 100' you could cover pretty much the entire room in antimagic. The party's arcanist can fill up the remainder with, say, walls of stone.

Berserk Monk
2009-07-07, 01:35 PM
Clerics can easily be made to kick more ass than the other combat classes.

Indon
2009-07-07, 01:35 PM
The fact that you have several other party members who very likely could wrestle it into submission just after your turn. It's not like the lich could defend itself decently well, after all.

If you're going to bring in an entire party, then the party Wizard can lock down the Lich and even the Monk could probably beat him up now.

That's why the scenario was originally stated as being solo.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 01:39 PM
Clerics can easily be made to kick more ass than the other combat classes.

Against a lich they can also use turning.

Indon
2009-07-07, 01:43 PM
Clerics can easily be made to kick more ass than the other combat classes.

So could a Wizard, Sorceror, Druid, probably Psion, really all the tier 1 classes and some tier 2 classes are potentially better front-line fighters than any seriously mentioned in this thread.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-07, 01:44 PM
If you're going to bring in an entire party, then the party Wizard can lock down the Lich and even the Monk could probably beat him up now.

That's why the scenario was originally stated as being solo.

I must've missed the 'solo' part. Well, you could always get a psicrystal, give it Assume Supernatural Ability (from Savage Species; note that you gave your psicrystal a few ability score bumps due to the HD it got in the intervening levels), and have it canvas what parts of the room you can't. Then grapple it yourself. Or use telekinetic thrust to blow it to pieces with those Gargantuan-sized javelins you brought. Or nab null psionics field, put it on your psicrystal, tie your psicrystal to an arrow, and peg his arse with it so the field follows him around. Or use metamorphosis on your psicrystal to turn it into some massive construct grappler and find a means of psionic dimension anchoring the lich.

Note that my psywar builds tend to research (or take Expanded Knowledge for) metamorphosis, psionic contingency, and psychic reformation, so they have access to...pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 01:45 PM
So could a Wizard, Sorceror, Druid, probably Psion, really all the tier 1 classes and some tier 2 classes are potentially better front-line fighters than any seriously mentioned in this thread.

I think psychic warrior and the ToB classes can hold their own against a T1 or T2 that is trying to be a melee warrior.

Indon
2009-07-07, 01:51 PM
Note that my psywar builds tend to research (or take Expanded Knowledge for) metamorphosis, psionic contingency, and psychic reformation, so they have access to...pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want.

Ah, so Psy-War cheese gives access to full caster powers. Okay, then I guess they would win if they were full BAB.


I think psychic warrior and the ToB classes can hold their own against a T1 or T2 that is trying to be a melee warrior.

I don't. At best, the Psywar could apparently gain access to the same kind of spellcasting cheese T1/T2 classes tend to already have access to innately, and then they might be able to compare favorably against a member of one of those classes, but the ToB classes don't really have a chance.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 01:54 PM
A ToB class against a melee wizard not against a batman wizard. No celerity, no gate, etc. Things like blackstaff, greater mage armor, haste, etc.

Indon
2009-07-07, 02:06 PM
A ToB class against a melee wizard not against a batman wizard. No celerity, no gate, etc. Things like blackstaff, greater mage armor, haste, etc.

Yeah. Wizards (and really, any full caster) can buff themselves to be very potent melee combatants, even without the Wizard debuffing his opponents so that he outclasses them.

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 02:22 PM
I think psychic warrior and the ToB classes can hold their own against a T1 or T2 that is trying to be a melee warrior.

I said I was done here and I was wrong. I'm with QC here. I think people vastly over-estimate the capacity for clerics and wizards to function in melee outside of theoretical optimization. Druids, on the other hand, really are just that good.

But while clerics and wizards easily obsolete the utility aspects of most good melee builds, meleers really are superb at delivering damage. I'm naturally discounting summoning, though I shouldn't be, but at that point in my mind, we're back to using a meleer. ;)

How much do you know about some of the really high-end ToB builds?

Indon
2009-07-07, 02:33 PM
I said I was done here and I was wrong. I'm with QC here. I think people vastly over-estimate the capacity for clerics and wizards to function in melee outside of theoretical optimization. Druids, on the other hand, really are just that good.
At the very best scenario, it takes until Shapechange for the Wizard and Sorceror to obsolete any and all melee classes - which is, admittedly, pretty much what happens if you're running core only. Most of the best melee buffs on the Sor/Wiz list is outside of core.

The Cleric, outside of core, is pretty much also just that good, without extensive optimization - just use of a single divine metamagic feat (Persist), and maybe an Extra Turning.


How much do you know about some of the really high-end ToB builds?

I only know of White Raven Tactics exploitation.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 03:17 PM
At the very best scenario, it takes until Shapechange for the Wizard and Sorceror to obsolete any and all melee classes - which is, admittedly, pretty much what happens if you're running core only. Most of the best melee buffs on the Sor/Wiz list is outside of core.


This is the sort of situation that suppressing weapons were made for.

AstralFire
2009-07-07, 03:25 PM
At the very best scenario, it takes until Shapechange for the Wizard and Sorceror to obsolete any and all melee classes - which is, admittedly, pretty much what happens if you're running core only. Most of the best melee buffs on the Sor/Wiz list is outside of core.

The Cleric, outside of core, is pretty much also just that good, without extensive optimization - just use of a single divine metamagic feat (Persist), and maybe an Extra Turning.

Cleric and Wizard are relatively easy to crash just because of the nature of how they get good at melee - dispellable buffs. Also, if you take away Nightsticks, DMM cheese is a lot harder to pull off in a practical campaign, and I've never met a DM who actually allowed Nightsticks to work for that.

What makes druid special is that you can't dispel its Wild Shape. Also, its animal companion doesn't care about AMFs. Also, most good melee builds depend heavily on something like reach or tripping, which caster melee builds just can't do well with their tight feat requirements. You can sure as hell oututility a melee, and you can even outdamage a poorly optimized/core-only one, but you are NOT as good at melee as they are as a Cleric or Wizard. You have better things to do.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 03:28 PM
Cleric and Wizard are relatively easy to crash just because of the nature of how they get good at melee - dispellable buffs. Also, if you take away Nightsticks, DMM cheese is a lot harder to pull off in a practical campaign, and I've never met a DM who actually allowed Nightsticks to work for that.

What makes druid special is that you can't dispel its Wild Shape. Also, its animal companion doesn't care about AMFs. Also, most good melee builds depend heavily on something like reach or tripping, which caster melee builds just can't do well with their tight feat requirements. You can sure as hell oututility a melee, and you can even outdamage a poorly optimized/core-only one, but you are NOT as good at melee as they are as a Cleric or Wizard. You have better things to do.

There are however, spells to force it out of wild shape. And if you really want to get abusive, im sure you can find some phrasing to end wild shape via iron heart surge.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 03:28 PM
Cleric and Wizard are relatively easy to crash just because of the nature of how they get good at melee - dispellable buffs. Also, if you take away Nightsticks, DMM cheese is a lot harder to pull off in a practical campaign, and I've never met a DM who actually allowed Nightsticks to work for that.

Dispelling isn't as easy as you'd think. Beads of Karma are trivial to use to buff your CL for buffing, but much harder to get a hand of for dispelling (not to mention, all non-epic dispelling is capped at 20). Ring of Enduring Arcana adds +4 against dispel checks. And any CL buffs work for this, but Greater Dispel Magic is still capped at 20.

It takes a focused dispeller to dispel any buffs, that or Anti-Magic Field large enough to cover the whole caster (which, if he's Colossal, is impossible even with a Widened AMF) or Disjunction, both of which are like to be among the first spells they prepare for (be it with Contingent effects, Rings of Spell-Battle, or any such changes case-by-case, but no buffed caster should ever walk around so that one Disjunction/AMF from some high speed natural flyer [say Dragon] is enough to take them down).

AstralFire
2009-07-07, 03:29 PM
There are, and I wouldn't even argue that a druid matches a heavily splatted melee class in melee. But the druid's clearly the best of the Big 5 for gishery, while it doesn't take much to see how the Cleric and Wizard aren't keeping up in a pure fist fight.

Eldariel - you're correct, as usual, except that I'm arguing about their practical effectiveness - and I've never ever had a player that actually thought out that far ahead consistently in a game not meant for sheer combat (which I do not ever partake in). And at mid levels, they can't get that kind of protection consistently. There are too many ways from level 6 to 16 to screw with someone trying to do that. Though I also usually cast Transmute Big Five to Eunuch when I'm in the mood for playing That Edition.

ashmanonar
2009-07-07, 03:30 PM
At the very best scenario, it takes until Shapechange for the Wizard and Sorceror to obsolete any and all melee classes - which is, admittedly, pretty much what happens if you're running core only. Most of the best melee buffs on the Sor/Wiz list is outside of core.

The Cleric, outside of core, is pretty much also just that good, without extensive optimization - just use of a single divine metamagic feat (Persist), and maybe an Extra Turning.



I only know of White Raven Tactics exploitation.

I have in my head a lovely magic-slayer Crusader/Warblade build (both helps, although straight up for just one works too) that gets annoying with an adamantine spiked chain. Thicket of Blades, (along with the feat Standstill), Power Attack (and possibly Leap Attack).

Add size increases (items of Enlarge, or maybe a dip PsyWar) and the reach gets bad. Vile feats can make this worse.

Mageslayer, Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment as well as magebane on the Spiked Chain makes it start get terrifying.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 03:30 PM
Dispelling isn't as easy as you'd think. Beads of Karma are trivial to use to buff your CL for buffing, but much harder to get a hand of for dispelling (not to mention, all non-epic dispelling is capped at 20). Ring of Enduring Arcana adds +4 against dispel checks. And any CL buffs work for this, but Greater Dispel Magic is still capped at 20.


Pierce Magical Protection will end a whole bunch of buffs without any caster level checks.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 03:32 PM
I have in my head a lovely magic-slayer Crusader/Warblade build (both helps, although straight up for just one works too) that gets annoying with an adamantine spiked chain. Thicket of Blades, (along with the feat Standstill), Power Attack (and possibly Leap Attack).

Add size increases (items of Enlarge, or maybe a dip PsyWar) and the reach gets bad. Vile feats can make this worse.

Mageslayer, Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment as well as magebane on the Spiked Chain makes it start get terrifying.


I had a warblade/crusader in an arena that does almost that. Spiked chain, thicket of blades, stand still, mage slayer, that counter that lets you take a 2nd AoO from 1 provoking action. Also shadow hand gloves of shadow jaunt.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-07-07, 03:34 PM
1. Barb with Rogue levels for Tumble/Backstab
2. Fighter with Rogue levels, etc.
3. Pure Barbarian/Pure Fighter w/full Weapon Mastery Chain feats/Psychic Warrior/Mounted Knight w/lance/Mounted Paladin w/lance
4. Pure Knight
5. TWF Rogue/Paladin/Monk houseruled to flurry on a partial action

I'm just gonna be honest and say I've never seen a Ranger, Scout, Swashbuckler even played before. I've seen people play Duskblade, Hexblade and ToB classes (and tried a few myself) but never used well IMO. From my experience, the deadliest nonmagic character in the game would be the wedding of a Barbarian's speed, HP, and brute damage to a Rogue's tumble/jump and backstab damage. The next tier would be classes designed to go rushing in with a huge weapon and do as much damage as possible; the Knight is great in a team where he can draw aggro, but for being so defensive (and needing a shield) he loses out, unless he's on a full charger and armed with a lance. The Paladin is in the same boat, but even moreso; he gets a handful of chances to do impressive damage, against evil opponents only, and he has to milk those for all he's worth.

The monk is in the same boat as the Knight and Paladin: you can easily make an irritating, hard-to-hit character (monks using spring attack while Knight & Pallies ramp up AC) but your damage potential is limited. And that's letting monks flurry on a standard attack. Once they start facing enemies with greater speed or flight, they've lost their only card. As for the TWF Rogue build.... well, if you're a rogue and you're fighting fair to begin with, you're doing it wrong. :p

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 03:41 PM
There are however, spells to force it out of wild shape. And if you really want to get abusive, im sure you can find some phrasing to end wild shape via iron heart surge.

I just fell in love with that idea. RAI be damned!

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 03:44 PM
Pierce Magical Protection will end a whole bunch of buffs without any caster level checks.

If you get next to them, have a standard action remaining, and manage a successful attack...yeah, that's very likely to happen for melee-focused casters (I'd also like to point out that the one non-charge attack isn't likely to kill him meaning you still will receive a smackdown next turn if that somehow succeeds).

Pierce Magical Protection is not an amazing feat. If you are in a position to use it, you could have just done a full attack/charge and killed the caster. Now you poke him for ~50-odd damage and die. The real problem is that it only dispels AC buffs; offensive buffs, Shapechange-effects and company are untouched. Pierce Magical Concealment is extraordinarily handy though.

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 03:46 PM
Belt of Battle, schism, many ways to get many actions per turn, Eld.... This is a point-by-point theoretical debate, one that will always collapse into corner cases. My experience, however, does suggest that pierce magical protection is not as good as pierce magical concealment.

My experience has suggested that casters are best served by avoiding melee, as melee reduces their action efficiency. Action efficiency is the hidden secret to effectiveness in D&D. ToB and chargers offer it, psy warriors spew it in great plumes, fighters like jack b quick or gattling trippers can capitalize on it in their own ways.




If you can't keep to a high level of action efficiency, you will lose against inferior opposing forces.
If you take away nothing else from any of my posts on optimization, take that.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 03:50 PM
Pierce Magical Protection is not an amazing feat. If you are in a position to use it, you could have just done a full attack/charge and killed the caster. Now you poke him for ~50-odd damage and die.

Its really, really good if you interpret it the more liberal way. Shapechange provides natural AC bonuses. Fly provides AC from higher ground.

Also, you can combine pierce magical protection with standard action martial strikes, say, diamond nightmare blade

Edit: And if you want to go by raw, warblades get near infinite movment from white raven tactics.
Prep: Start in press the advantage stance
[Swift] WRT yourself.
[Full Round Action] Recover WRT via adaptive style.
[Free] 5ft step.
[Free] 5ft step
Repeat until you are next to the wizard.
[Std] Diamond Nightmare Blade, piercing magical protection.
[Swift] Engage Thicket of Blades

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 03:51 PM
And again it devolves to action efficiency! :)
I'm not going to stop harping on this, I'm afraid. :)

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 03:51 PM
Belt of Battle, schism, many ways to get many actions per turn, Eld.... This is a point-by-point theoretical debate, one that will always collapse into corner cases. My experience, however, does suggest that pierce magical protection is not as good as pierce magical concealment.

This is all true; I'm merely arguing against the efficiency of spending a standard action on Pierce Magical Protection. What it does: Penetrates AC buffs and if successful, dispels them.

What a caster's defenses are usually composed off? Miss chances, something Pierce Magical Concealment dispels! Now, if they have a mammoth AC? I'd wager you can blame a Polymorph-effect, something not dispelled by PMP. Either way, I find it better to just pummel them through their buffs (or get them in an AMF or something) than to try and dispel their AC buffs, THEN pummel them.


And sure, if you remove the need to use a standard action for it, PMP suddenly becomes great. Even better if you enable it to pierce Polymorph. It's the Standard Action-activation that breaks the feat IMHO.

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 03:53 PM
:: nods::

Seconded on all crucial points. Hitting the first time is troublez, often.
Surge of Fortune helps, admittedly, but negating mischance is hard. I'm fond of the Mask of Visual Insight from MiC, combined with an RkV.


The best martial build is a gish offering triple threats, like a good RkV build. Why settle for a single threat when you could have a triple threat for free? :smalltongue:

SilveryCord
2009-07-07, 03:59 PM
I see that my love for the fighter is not so shared (we can say that I agree with Deepblue, they suck or do their job well depending on built, and maybe you need a lot of books to make them effective) so..ok.. 7..

But the Knight? Bad? Why?

Knight requires you to gimp yourself out of combat bonuses in exchange for mediocre abilities. Fighting challenge is OK but the good bonuses come too late to be useful. The rest of its abilities are defensive.
It's like using a cleric's healing during battle: why bother. You will end the encounter much faster if you have a good offense. It might be higher on the list than I put it, but it's still in the pool of classes you should not be taking levels from without some very good reason.
By contrast, monk can be a good dip, while a level or two in knight will almost never help your build. (And... Knight 20? I don't know about that.)


Soulknife!? You are familiar with psionics and the best you could come up with is soulknife? I could understand if you didn't know that wilders and ardents rock, but not even mentioning psychic warrior is just dumb. Soulknife is highly house ruled because their main weapon doesn't scale with their level well. That should be an indication of hhow bad they suck. Psywar is one of the few base fighting classes you can take 20 levels in and be game-breaking (ever hear of King of Smack?).

Paladin and fighter should not even be on that list as they suck. I love rogues but they are really not all that when it comes to damage. Swashbulker is one of the most houseruled classes because they have great fluff but no bite past level 3.

To the OP, I would seriously look at other posts before you take this ranking to heart.
Ouch, I'm hurt. :smallredface:
I think you missed the sarcasm of my honorable mentions.
PsyWar is a very good class, however, my list didn't include psionics intentionally. (I consider the Incarnum classes still martial because their abilities are more similar to a monk's powers than actual spellcasting/manifesting.)
Paladins can be built well, despite MAD, with Leadership powering a cohort mount. Are they great? No, that is why they aren't at the top of the list. Same thing with fighters.

Samb
2009-07-07, 03:59 PM
Ah, so Psy-War cheese gives access to full caster powers. Okay, then I guess they would win if they were full BAB.
Research and EK have been around forever, but there are other ways to get things like mantled variants would even allow you turn into an outsider for added cheese. Psywar don't have full BAB. If psywar had full BAB they would more or less be broken.
A wilder has the potential to be even more broken since it has moar PP, higher ML, and higher attack rolls and better powers. Most notably among them is greater metamorphosis.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 04:04 PM
Knight requires you to gimp yourself out of combat bonuses in exchange for mediocre abilities. Fighting challenge is OK but the good bonuses come too late to be useful. The rest of its abilities are defensive.
It's like using a cleric's healing during battle: why bother. You will end the encounter much faster if you have a good offense. It might be higher on the list than I put it, but it's still in the pool of classes you should not be taking levels from without some very good reason.
By contrast, monk can be a good dip, while a level or two in knight will almost never help your build. (And... Knight 20? I don't know about that.)

Knights make for fine battlefield controllers especially in ToBless games though. In fact, they do that better than any non-Crusader class. Also, their level 20 ability is practical immortality, which is pretty saucy.

Really, they only do 1 thing but they do it really well; I'd definitely place them right under Fighter on that list. I mean, sure, they aren't all that good against single opponents (although being able to lock that single opponent out so that it can't do anything while you beat it senseless should be useful), but they're pretty great against masses.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 04:08 PM
Knights make for fine battlefield controllers especially in ToBless games though. In fact, they do that better than any non-Crusader class. Also, their level 20 ability is practical immortality, which is pretty saucy.


Yeah, I dont get why they are considered on par with the CW samurai and soulknife.

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 04:26 PM
Even the soulknife doesn't deserve to get lumped in with the CW Samurai. Seriously. Soulknife at least blooms into Soulbow, which isn't bad really.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 04:31 PM
Even the soulknife doesn't deserve to get lumped in with the CW Samurai. Seriously. Soulknife at least blooms into Soulbow, which isn't bad really.

CW Samurai can retroactively prc into Ronin at least (like paladin into warblade). Banzai charge is shock trooper, but stacks with the actual shock trooper.

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 04:38 PM
But you don't need to be a CW Samurai to get into Ronin, and it doesn't really help that much. :)

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 04:45 PM
But you don't need to be a CW Samurai to get into Ronin, and it doesn't really help that much. :)

Yeah, but you can trade in samurai levels, and be a samurai 1 (which really isnt any worse than fighter 1 - it gets EWP: Bastard Sword)/ronin 10.

Then you pick up shock trooper and leap attack and you can put shock trooper in your shock trooper so you can power attack while you power attack.

Taking twice your BAB as a penalty to AC in exchange for six times your BAB to damage? Yes please!

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 04:46 PM
:: hums intently :: Do you then still get your reclaimed kiai shout?
If so, that's pretty much a house.

Samurai 2/Ronin9, moving that down to Samurai 2/Ronin7 in some fashion, switch over to frenzied berserker for the rest of your career, never stop cackling, and use a sunblade as your wakizashi, since it's technically a short sword. :)

Dishonor doesn't have to be restrained to just your in-game behavior! This lets you put power-attack in your power attack so that you can power attack while you power attack, and with girallon's blessing and a fanciful read of the rules re: sunblade, you can 2hW+TWF all. day. long.

Ohhhhh yeah! Add knowledge devotion, flavor to taste, shake well, and you have a fantastic build for mooks either PC or NPC.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 04:49 PM
:: hums intently :: Where's the text that lets you trade in levels? I can't find it even though I remember it being there.... The other thing is, do you then still get your reclaimed kiai shout? If so, that's pretty much a house.

It's the table on page 78; a level 11+ ex-Samurai can go Samurai 1/Ronin 10. You don't retain any abilities from the Samurai-levels you trade away though (it's specified in the last paragraph).

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 04:50 PM
:: hums intently :: Where's the text that lets you trade in levels? I can't find it even though I remember it being there.... The other thing is, do you then still get your reclaimed kiai shout? If so, that's pretty much a house.

Its at the bottom of pg 78. You do get to keep kiai shout, as long as you keep enough levels of samurai. (So 2 levels for 1/day, and 7 levels for 2/day)

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 04:59 PM
Already found it and spec'd out a build that might work. It uses some curious abuses, but I think a four-armed twf\2hw weapon charger with a sunblade for a wakizashi is funny enough.

Quietus
2009-07-07, 06:03 PM
A hulking hurler is easily the strongest warrior out there. +20 strength over 10 levels, baby!

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 06:05 PM
A hulking hurler is easily the strongest warrior out there. +20 strength over 10 levels, baby!

You mean War Hulk. Hulking Hurler is about 1000000 times more ridiculous, yes, but the one that gets Str is War Hulk.

Samb
2009-07-07, 06:51 PM
Note that my psywar builds tend to research (or take Expanded Knowledge for) metamorphosis, psionic contingency, and psychic reformation, so they have access to...pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want.

I have been meaning to address this with you Lycan. Psicraft is not a class skill for psywar. Granted you only need a total of 15 on a psicraft check but as cross class it could be as late as level 13 if INT was your dump stat (as oftenthe case). To make matters worse UPD isn't a class skill either so no synergy either. Skill focus and psionic affinity will both add a total of +5 to the check and open minded will give you 5 skill points. That's 3 feats that you could've picked EK with and saved you on XP.

Also given psywar's low PP pool, this is even more unjustified.

AslanCross
2009-07-07, 06:52 PM
War Hulk is pretty cool, though it doesn't have much in the way of special tricks. A Large sized martial adept (Skullcrusher Ogre Knight/Crusader) would be far more frightening, IMO.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-07, 10:13 PM
I have been meaning to address this with you Lycan. Psicraft is not a class skill for psywar. Granted you only need a total of 15 on a psicraft check but as cross class it could be as late as level 13 if INT was your dump stat (as oftenthe case). To make matters worse UPD isn't a class skill either so no synergy either. Skill focus and psionic affinity will both add a total of +5 to the check and open minded will give you 5 skill points. That's 3 feats that you could've picked EK with and saved you on XP.

Also given psywar's low PP pool, this is even more unjustified.

The DC is only 10+power level (ie, 14 for metamorphosis). You should easily reach that, especially since you can't really do 'research' when distracted or threatened, so you should be able to take 10. If you have a psicrystal or another character with Psicraft, it can Aid Another, as well. So you only need an additional +2 from skill points and Int bonus (and I'm far more likely to dump my physical stats than mental stats as a psychic warrior, what with access to feats like Zen Archery and powers such as psionic minor creation and metamorphosis - though it depends on the exact build).

Not a big deal, though I do believe that psychic warriors should've had Psicraft on their skill list, and that its non-appearance is an oversight.

As far as pp goes, there are lots of ways around that. For one, see: item creation.

Samb
2009-07-07, 10:42 PM
The DC is only 10+power level (ie, 14 for metamorphosis). You should easily reach that, especially since you can't really do 'research' when distracted or threatened, so you should be able to take 10. If you have a psicrystal or another character with Psicraft, it can Aid Another, as well. So you only need an additional +2 from skill points and Int bonus (and I'm far more likely to dump my physical stats than mental stats as a psychic warrior, what with access to feats like Zen Archery and powers such as psionic minor creation and metamorphosis - though it depends on the exact build).

Not a big deal, though I do believe that psychic warriors should've had Psicraft on their skill list, and that its non-appearance is an oversight.

As far as pp goes, there are lots of ways around that. For one, see: item creation.
Hmm...... taking 10 on psicraft? Never heard of that before, you sure about that? Where is that listed? If so then just have one rank is enough (Psicraft is trained only so you will have to have ranks in it to even attempt it right?).

Nice trick with the psicrystal helping you. Never thought of that one. What is that a +2 bonus?

Well if everything you say is true then 2 skill points into psicraft (for one rank) take the skill focus (psicraft) and I should be okay for level 4 powers? Take psionic affinity and be set for all psywar powers. Not too bad.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-07, 11:25 PM
So long as the skill description doesn't say otherwise (and it doesn't), you can Take 10 any time that you aren't being distracted or are being threatened.

Enjoy your research!

Quietus
2009-07-08, 02:06 AM
War Hulk is pretty cool, though it doesn't have much in the way of special tricks. A Large sized martial adept (Skullcrusher Ogre Knight/Crusader) would be far more frightening, IMO.

No? How about these :


Great Swing (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the war hulk is able to make a great, sweeping swing with a melee weapon. In melee, as a full-round action, the war hulk can choose three squares adjacent to each other (he must threaten all of them). His attack applies to all creatures in those squares. Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender. If the war hulk rolls a critical hit, only the first creature suffers the critical hit.

Walls and similar obstacles can block the great swing. Start with one square that the war hulk threatens. Each successive square chosen must be adjacent to the previous square and have line of effect from that square. Two squares separated by a wall, for instance, can't be chosen as adjacent squares for the great swing.

The war hulk may skip creatures, attacking only those he wants to. For example, if there are three creatures in a row -- an enemy, an ally, and another enemy -- the war hulk can choose those three squares for the great swing but strike only the enemies.

If the war hulk drops one of his foes with a great swing, he may cleave normally. However, he may cleave only once for every time he swings, even if he drops more than one foe.

If the war hulk deals sneak attack damage, it applies only to the first creature struck with each attack.





Mighty Swing (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the war hulk can make mighty swings. A mighty swing is like a great swing except that it is an attack action rather than a full-round action. Thus, the war hulk can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round.




Massive Swing (Ex): At 10th level, the war hulk can lash out all around himself. Massive swing works like mighty swing except that it is not limited to three squares. The war hulk's swing affects all squares he threatens that have a line of effect between them.

Or the rock-throwing bits? 2d8+str damage, 50 foot increment, strength to your ranged attack roll instead of dex, eventually able to hit a four-square line with said rocks. Then step forward, using his ten feet of reach, and make what amounts to a whirlwind attack you didn't spend a feat on, and can do it as an attack action. This means you can do it *multiple times in a round*, if you got up to 6 BAB before entering War Hulk.

Combine with Dungeoncrasher for obscene levels of damage.

Samb
2009-07-08, 08:22 AM
So long as the skill description doesn't say otherwise (and it doesn't), you can Take 10 any time that you aren't being distracted or are being threatened.

Enjoy your research!

Oh that's awesome. My wilder can just go crazy now with only +8 in psicraft. I was doing this the hard way all along.

AslanCross
2009-07-08, 09:04 AM
No? How about these :
[War Hulk Class Features]
Combine with Dungeoncrasher for obscene levels of damage.

Yeah, but martial adepts can do all that on their own too, except maybe the rock-throwing (which some Large races have as racial abilities anyway). A Warblade who has access to Mithral Tornado can do even better than the Great Swing, without Great Swing's restrictions, with an attack roll for each target, as a standard action. Not to mention that it can actually do other things in addition to Mithral Tornado.

The problem with this is it requires more levels in the class, but an ogre would need 2 more levels of a full BAB class to qualify for War Hulk anyway, not to mention Cleave.

An ogre would need 7 levels of Warblade to get to Mithral Tornado, but for its CR it would be able to do more than an Ogre Barbarian 2/War Hulk 5.

I find the wording on Mighty Swing a bit troublesome. At 4th level it becomes a standard action to use it, but then it says if the character can make multiple attacks it can make multiple mighty swings. Typically you only get one standard action per round even if you can make multiple attacks, but oh well. It's like saying the war hulk can make multiple standard actions in a round just because it can make multiple attacks. Is there errata for this entry?

Anyway, I'm not saying War Hulk sucks. It's pretty impressive and I've always wanted to throw an ogre with it at the PCs myself. Just saying that there are other ways to do what the War Hulk can do, and a Warblade of the same level, while probably not capable of as much solid damage, isn't a one-trick pony beatstick.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-08, 09:35 AM
I find the wording on Mighty Swing a bit troublesome. At 4th level it becomes a standard action to use it, but then it says if the character can make multiple attacks it can make multiple mighty swings. Typically you only get one standard action per round even if you can make multiple attacks, but oh well. It's like saying the war hulk can make multiple standard actions in a round just because it can make multiple attacks. Is there errata for this entry?



Myself, I consider it simply badly worded. I guess it means that when you improve the class ability, later, you can perform a full attack of mighty swings.

Samb
2009-07-08, 10:12 AM
I calculated the XP cost to make me a wilder with the same amount of powers as a psion and it was a staggering 18,200XP. This could really add up! There is still a place for EK afterall.

Doc Roc
2009-07-08, 10:31 AM
Definitely still a place for EK, particularly in games with flaws as well as the ol' psi-crystal+psychic reformation+feat leech.

Samb
2009-07-09, 12:00 AM
Oh just remembered the psionic shards also give you +1-10 competence bonus on one skill. Sweet.