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Shadow_Elf
2009-07-06, 05:21 PM
I was hypothesizing about some dungeon design the other day (yeah, I know), and I ran into a problem. Its never a good idea for a secret door to be the only way forward, because if it isn't found it becomes a roadblock. However, if you put in a secret door, where should it go? If it skips by encounters, then the PCs lose XP. If it simply provides a different set of encounters that lead up to the same "boss" or "finale" (or, heaven-forbid, the same encounters), then what's the virtue?

So, how does everyone effectively use secret doors when designing a dungeon?

Random832
2009-07-06, 05:25 PM
How about _more_ encounters? Or maybe just more treasure? Or make an encounter easier within the same CR (it's a shortcut, so you get a surprise round on the BBEG since he's not ready)

-Cor-
2009-07-06, 05:28 PM
So, how does everyone effectively use secret doors when designing a dungeon?

I like to use them for what their nomenclature denotes... to hide something that's supposed to be a secret... like a treasure room... or the BBEG(or one of his henchmen)'s personal/planning/war room with documents revealing plans or weaknesses etc... or an extra part of a dungeon long forgotten full of strange creepy crawlies or undead that mean "extra" XP.

Another really good use I've found is if it leads to a secret room the PCs can use it as a defensible position to rest in in a really long dungeon delve.

::shrug::

SwordGoddess
2009-07-06, 05:29 PM
Maybe have it simply lead to another set of encounters, but one that doesn't lead to the Big Bad--say, it's a set of side-corriders/rooms with more stuff in it, but since it doesn't connect back anywhere else it won't derail the dungeoncrawling.

Signmaker
2009-07-06, 05:30 PM
In a lot of WLD rooms I'm finding that secret doors either lead to safehouses or strongholds (thus giving the party a chance to rest) or they simply bypass traps one would encounter from a "kick the door down" standpoint. My party almost got massacred by a resetting acid arrow trap because they didn't find the secret door to bypass it, and instead opted on taking a battering ram to the door.

evisiron
2009-07-06, 05:32 PM
If you do use a bunch of secret doors, make sure to include one that's a private bathroom, hidden from common sight. :smallbiggrin:

I rarely use them, but if I do it is usually a stash of weapons or potions; an obvious benefit that will encourage such exploration.

Shadow_Elf
2009-07-06, 05:35 PM
These are all great ideas. Extra treasure, "story" treasure, resting rooms and defensible positions are all good ideas. And avoiding traps. Thanks for your help, but I am still interested in hearing more ideas! I think I could really add another dimension of fun to a dungeon with good use of secret doors.

Harperfan7
2009-07-06, 05:49 PM
In the same way that you need a meatshield to kill a golem, you need a skillmonkey to get past a secret door/trap. A golem you can't kill or get past is just as much a roadblock as any secret door.

Don't skimp on them just because they don't have a solid virtue for existing. Look at it through the eyes of a dungeon builder. You might want a golem or magic trap to defend something, but why not just make it damn near impossible to find in the first place? Why not both?

Jack Zander
2009-07-06, 05:50 PM
Most of my secret doors lead to small rooms with arrow slits. There are usually a few monstrous humanoids hiding in these rooms waiting for the players to come through the adjacent room to pepper them with arrows. Finding these rooms first makes the next encounter much, much easier.

Kurald Galain
2009-07-06, 05:55 PM
If it skips by encounters, then the PCs lose XP.

And why would that be a problem?

The point of an adventure is to have fun, kick ass and take names. The point of an adventure is not to gather the precise amount of 3100 experience points.

warrl
2009-07-06, 06:06 PM
The secret door is off the main hallway that loops through the complex. There's no dead end: just keep going forward and you'll eventually get back to the point where you came in.

The secret door leads to the rest of the complex, of course.

Maybe it's a small room with a column of symbols in squares on the wall, and a row of most of the same symbols (only one of them in a square) above the door. And only the one door.

And actually the secret door was in plain sight, but the trick to get it open was the secret (and you still don't know the trick: it opened on its own when the bard leaned against the wall).

-Cor-
2009-07-06, 06:10 PM
And why would that be a problem?

The point of an adventure is to have fun, kick ass and take names. The point of an adventure is not to gather the precise amount of 3100 experience points.

For you perhaps... some players like role playing and some like getting xp.

Further uses for secret doors not in my previous post:

- Door to nowhere... PCs spend time trying to figure out why there was a door to an empty room giving the mobs time to regroup, establish and ambush, heal... whathaveyou.

- Door as trap... a really easy to find secret door that's a ***** to open and actually springs a trap... these are good if the PCs already found a couple of hidden treasure rooms and are expecting more.

- Door as a way out... a hidden escape route usually used by the monsters/BBEG that the players can use to quickly get back outside/back to town/whatever without walking back through the whole dungeon.

- Door as nonsense... a door to a room that makes no sense in relation to the rest of the dungeon... possibly a dimensional magic gone horribly wrong... have some funny things in there (I think bathroom was already mentioned)... this is a good way to break up monotony or add a little light-heartedness to an otherwise very deadly dungeon.

These are just off the top of my head... I'm sure I could come up with more.

Kurald Galain
2009-07-06, 06:13 PM
For you perhaps... some players like role playing and some like getting xp.
Miss the point much?

shadzar
2009-07-06, 06:14 PM
Secret doors offer one or both of two things. Shortcuts or extra treasures.

Sometimes they are the only way forward because they lead to where the BBEG went, and the PCs just need to use surveillance and recon to find the door if all else fails.

-Cor-
2009-07-06, 06:22 PM
Miss the point much?

No, you were going on as if you were the ultimate authority on why anyone plays... just felt you needed to be put in your place.

Eldan
2009-07-06, 06:23 PM
A roleplaying encounter?

A prisoner that can give the PCs important information about a weakness the BBEG has?

A prisoner that will join the BBEG as a meat shield?

A prisoner who is a famous bard and will compose a song about the PCs when they free him?

Okay, enough prisoners.

The secret passage the BBEG would have used to escape at the last moment.

-Cor-
2009-07-06, 06:26 PM
A roleplaying encounter?

Heaven forbid! ;)



Okay, enough prisoners.


Last one, a prisoner of the BBEG that was actually one of the BBEG's very chaotic evil henchmen and is extremely happy to be released, but only insomuch as he gets to start killing again... starting with you.

:)

Eldan
2009-07-06, 06:35 PM
Last one, a prisoner of the BBEG that was actually one of the BBEG's very chaotic evil henchmen and is extremely happy to be released, but only insomuch as he gets to start killing again... starting with you.

:)

You have failed me the last time!

A good idea, though: the lawful evil BBEG imprisoned that guy because he just wouldn't follow orders: instead of precisely removing that one annoying bureaucrat, he killed an entire family, instead of delivering an ultimatum to the mayor, he burned down the gatehouse and then delivered it, and so on. Now he is free, pretending to be a harmless prisoner, and will go on a killing spree while the PCs are removing his ex-boss.

-Cor-
2009-07-06, 06:39 PM
Now he is free, pretending to be a harmless prisoner, and will go on a killing spree while the PCs are removing his ex-boss.

Oooo... that's even better...

Congratulations Players... you've unknowingly unleashed an unspeakable evil on the world... that you must later track down and fight.

:)

Tehnar
2009-07-06, 06:40 PM
There are three reasons I put secret doors in my dungeons.

1) They allow great ways to flank the party for the monsters inhabiting the dungeon. Party front rank gets tied up with things (monsters, trap, a wall of force across that splits the room in two) while the skirmishers sneak in from behind to have fun with the squishier party members.

2) To allow monsters to bypass "the corridor of the really painfully, deadly, undetectable traps". Often combined with 1) for a more fun.

3) To hide valuables behind. Now imagine you are some random dungeon dweller. Sooner or later you know some group of idiots will come in here in search of loot. And sooner or later some group will bypass your defenses and start chopping up your minions. So you are smart and have a escape tunnel prepared. But your hoard of shinies is not as easily transportable as your 100 od pounds of flesh. This way you know, if you flee, your treasure is safe, and in a short while you can return, and use your funds to rebuild. Think of it as insurance. And if the word gets out that your dungeon has no loot, well you are better for it.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-07-06, 08:04 PM
Adding on to the escape route; a portal leading out that only one person can use before it disappears. Make this room small so they can't miss it/might accidentally go in it. Then they're down one person unless they want to trek back and meet up.

Jack_Simth
2009-07-06, 08:22 PM
Adding on to the escape route; a portal leading out that only one person can use before it disappears. Make this room small so they can't miss it/might accidentally go in it. Then they're down one person unless they want to trek back and meet up.
You don't generally want to do this, for metagame reasons: You either end up needing to referee two groups (lone player, main group), which gets very annoying very quickly, or one person is sitting out for half a session (or more!), which gets very annoying very quickly. As in a game, the point is to have fun, this particular trap is something you'll want to avoid.

ericgrau
2009-07-06, 11:11 PM
Just ask yourself why the monsters would want a secret door. Perhaps they hide some loot there, the BBEG sleeps there, or etc. Also consider what they are physically. Most secret doors are revolving walls, revolving bookshelves, or etc. Or they can simply be an opening behind a tapestry or etc. If monsters are using it regularly to go about their normal business, it's gonna be obvious where it is even from hearing it. Then the PCs will likely enter the room and take 20's on their search checks to search it top to bottom until, after several minutes, they find it. So it can't be a main passageway. Or in the case of the opening behind a tapestry it's always obvious with only a casual search, but only if you have time for such a search. Monsters can pop out from behind such easily and ambush as soon as the PCs enter the room.

Lapak
2009-07-06, 11:24 PM
People have posted a number of good ideas already. Since you marked this with [Any], though, I should point out that in the early D&D and AD&D where secret doors as we know them became such an important part of dungeon maps, treasure was the primary source of XP. If you could avoid a fight by slipping through a secret passage, you were getting just as much experience without the fighting and risk of death.

In newer editions, where the fights are the thing, I'd be prone to use them much more sparingly and in ways (as suggested above) that are sensible within the context of the environment and which make sense to the beings who live in the space the PCs are searching.

EDIT (posted before I was ready) The key thing when using them is that you should reward the players for finding them and using them - at least most of the time. So additional rewards or a significant advantage of some kind is a good idea - one possibility is not to have the secret passage avoid any fights, but simply allow the party to come at one from an angle that gives them a big advantage, like popping out right next to a spellcaster instead of starting a fight with a row of melee monsters between you and him.