Undead summoned maximum with Deathbound domain

[penbed400]

So there's this cleric right? And he's level 10. So that means that he can control up to 20 HD of undead right of the bat with the spell animate dead and whatnot. Now say he took the Deathbound Domain from Libris Mortis page 60. That means due to the granted abilities from that domain he can control up to three times his maximum amount of HD, so that's 30 HD.

Now my question is if he is in a desecrated area and remains there does that mean he gets to control 60 HD of undead? The spell for Desecrate says: Furthermore, anyone who casts animate dead within this area may create as many as double the normal amount of undead but then right after in parentheses says: (that is, 4 HD per caster level rather than 2 HD per caster level).

So what is your take on it? By RAI or RAW can the Cleric control the 60 HD or still only do a maximum of 40 HD? It's an idea for my campaign for a big bad guy Cleric who plays as a Necromancer and he's in his tower so I'm looking to get as many minions as possible.

[quick_comment]

RAW, its ambiguous.

RAI, I think is 60HD.

[olentu]

Ok so first off I am going to say that in the spell compendium or the libris mortis errata the the deathbound domain was changed from allowing control of three times caster level to allowing creation of three times caster level. Now this probably refers to the text in animate dead that says that one can not create more HD of undead than twice ones caster level with one cast of animate dead similar to how desecrate probably refers to this same passage.

Now the quoted section of desecrate says that one "may create as many as double the normal amount of undead."

Now taken from the errata the deathbound domain says “Your limit for creating undead animated with spells increases to three times your caster level instead of the normal two times caster level.”

So both of these passages modify the normal situation of being only able to create two times ones caster level of HD of undead.

So since both passages modify the normal limit and do not say that the new limit becomes the normal limit then the normal limit remains as two times ones caster level in undead. And thus I would contend that because neither change what is the normal limit the two abilities do not interact and so one must choose to either use the desecrate limit or remain with the deathbound domain limit.

[VirOath]

I'd never say that the two don't stack. That just doesn't feel right. It's like saying a Frenzied Berserker couldn't use Leap Attack and it's improved power attack. What is important is the way they stack.

Most favorable way of reading it is that the Errata'd Deathbound changes your creation limit from 2 to 3 per caster level. The other states that it outright doubles the undead at creation, the example showing your normal 2 turning to 4. So it would be 6 per caster level. This would normally allow you to animate more undead then you can control, but you control all the undead you animate in one shot, only ever losing creatures from past castings.

So it would allow you to get larger armies by doing it in one shot, with the cost that you can't top up as they start to die off. Which is pretty reasonable in my opinion, and how it sounds like it should work by the examples given.

The second way of seeing it is handling it like crit multipliers. Being that you take the highest first (Our increase to 4HD/CL) and modifying it by the increase by Deathbound (2HD/CL to 3HD/CL) to get the final result. So 5HD/CL.

[Gaiyamato]

See, I still don't get that domain because I read animate dead and get:



No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level.

Everywhere I read I get 4HD per caster level.. not 2. :P

So that domain lowers your control level for animate dead.. ?!? o_O
Or is that you can create 2x caster HD when you cast Animate dead??
Never made any sense to me. Seems like a crap Domain.

And I have an old version of Libris mortis and it says the 2 to 3 thing. So I'm not sure where this errata is being required. :P

[AstralFire]

The inherent tendency of adding together multiple multipliers in D&D is:

B*(M1+(M2-1)+(M3-1))...

Where B is the base value, M1 is the first multiplier, M2 is the second multiplier, etc.)

[KillianHawkeye]

See, I still don't get that domain because I read animate dead and get:

Everywhere I read I get 4HD per caster level.. not 2. :P

So that domain lowers your control level for animate dead.. ?!? o_O
Or is that you can create 2x caster HD when you cast Animate dead??
Never made any sense to me. Seems like a crap Domain.

And I have an old version of Libris mortis and it says the 2 to 3 thing. So I'm not sure where this errata is being required. :P

The spell animate dead allows you to create up to 2x your CL in HD of skeletons or zombies at a time. You can control up to 4x your CL in HD of total undead created in this method. So if you had no undead minions, you could cast the spell twice in a row and still control them all. Get it?

Also, the errata is not in the book, it is online. That's why it is called errata (because it was changed after the book was printed). Just do a search.

[Gaiyamato]

The spell animate dead allows you to create up to 2x your CL in HD of skeletons or zombies at a time. You can control up to 4x your CL in HD of total undead created in this method. So if you had no undead minions, you could cast the spell twice in a row and still control them all. Get it?

Also, the errata is not in the book, it is online. That's why it is called errata (because it was changed after the book was printed). Just do a search.

Also I already know what the animate dead spell does.
The deathbound domain says that instead of controlling 2x my caster level worth of undead HD I can control 3x. Yet the rules say that I already control 4x my caster level.

My query was not on the anime dead spell which I already fully understand. It is the fact that the deathbound domain completely contradicts the rules and in fact reduces the volume of undead you can control using animate dead (and similar spells such as plague of undead).

The errata version makes much more sense. MUCH more sense.
But it is still fairly mediocre. You can max out your control limit in two castings anyway. Making it 3x per castnig just means that your chances of having excess uncontrolled undead are more likely.

Really why would I bother.
If the only reason to take Cleric is for this domain (which gives some very average spells) and Rebuke undead I'd rather take a Dread Witch for the Rebuke Undead ability.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The errata version makes much more sense. MUCH more sense.
But it is still fairly mediocre. You can max out your control limit in two castings anyway. Making it 3x per castnig just means that your chances of having excess uncontrolled undead are more likely.The reason for that is that now you can control an 18 HD Skele and a 6 HD Skele at level 6 instead of 2 12 HD skeles. Bigger undead are better than more undead.

[Set]

Everywhere I read I get 4HD per caster level.. not 2. :P

I'm not sure, but I believe that in 3.0, a caster could only control 2 HD / level worth of undead, making the 3 HD / level of the Deathbound domain a 50% increase in total 'command rating.' In 3.5, the casters can already control up to 4 HD / level, making the Deathbound domain no longer a bonus at all, as written.

You could simply update it to remain relevant in 3.5, by allowing the Deathbound Cleric to control up to 5 or 6 HD worth of undead / level.

Or you could go with the official eratta, which changes it to *creating* 3 HD / level worth of undead, instead of 2 HD / level with the Animate Dead spell, which is kinda sucktacular. Nobody is casting that spell during combat, and it requires the same amount of onyx / HD, so it's not a relevant Domain ability, IMO.

[Gaiyamato]

I'm not sure, but I believe that in 3.0, a caster could only control 2 HD / level worth of undead, making the 3 HD / level of the Deathbound domain a 50% increase in total 'command rating.' In 3.5, the casters can already control up to 4 HD / level, making the Deathbound domain no longer a bonus at all, as written.

You could simply update it to remain relevant in 3.5, by allowing the Deathbound Cleric to control up to 5 or 6 HD worth of undead / level.

Or you could go with the official eratta, which changes it to *creating* 3 HD / level worth of undead, instead of 2 HD / level with the Animate Dead spell, which is kinda sucktacular. Nobody is casting that spell during combat, and it requires the same amount of onyx / HD, so it's not a relevant Domain ability, IMO.

That is what I was thinking.
I'm not sure what the rule was in 3.0
But if the standard was controlling 2HD per caster level then yes, that domain kicked ass.

Now.. it is just rather.. dissapointing.

Unles we change it to simply add 1HD per caster level to the maximum control limit with animate dead and similar. So then no matter what your control is you get extra undead. Then it would kick ass.