PDA

View Full Version : Improved archer builds



Hefty Lefty
2009-07-06, 11:01 PM
im looking to play an archer character, and i dont know if theres anything better than lvl 4 fighter (its mostly core 3.5, but some outside stuff is ok). i just got done playing ranger (archery) up to level 4 (he died :smallredface:). i liked the bow, but a lot of ranger abilities are stupid.

so does anyone know of any fun new ways to play a wielder of the bow?

Zaq
2009-07-06, 11:04 PM
If you have access to Complete Scoundrel and Complete Adventurer, I hear a Swift Hunter build (Scout + Ranger, basically) can be decent.

Cleric archers are also very viable, especially with access to the Zen Archery feat. There's a lot that a cleric can do to buff archery, plus, you know, full casting and all that.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-06, 11:06 PM
There's a base class called Scout. Basically, it's similar in concept to a Rogue/Ranger hybrid. No spellcasting, but does get Trapfinding, Skirmish (similar to Sneak Attack), Tracking and nature-based skills, and 3/4 BAB.

There IS a feat called Swift Hunter which allows you to stack Scout and Ranger levels for several purposes, including your Skirmish. Then you take Improved Manyshot which lets you apply precision-based damage to every shot. So you move, then Improved Manyshot to shoot like three or four arrows and get Skirmish damage on all of them.

Hefty Lefty
2009-07-06, 11:21 PM
im thinking of possibly fighter 2 wizard 2 and eventually going eldritch knight. is that a good prestige with archery? is arcane archer a better decision? r they both stupid?

holywhippet
2009-07-06, 11:30 PM
Eldritch knight doesn't ignore the whole "can't cast in armour" problem. You also need at least 5 levels of wizard in order to meet the prerequisites. I can see uses for it - especially since wizards are pretty strong, but you were aiming to be an archer, not a fighter/mage.

For arcane archer, forget wizard/fighter. Go for bard/ranger so that you can still cast in light armour. You get the bonus of your bard song and better skill points from both classes.

In terms of raw power the eldritch knight wins hands down though.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-07, 12:22 AM
If you can use Psionics, the Soulbow (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) from Complete Psionic makes one of the best archer characters possible. Since you only need one hand to fire a Mind Arrow, you can use TWF or even Multiweapon Fighting if you use something like Thri-Kreen. It's not really playable unless you start high enough level to have it though.

Any serious archery-focused character should take the feat Woodland Archer in Races of the Wild. Ranged Weapon Mastery in PH2 is also good to have if you can qualify for it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-07, 12:41 AM
im thinking of possibly fighter 2 wizard 2 and eventually going eldritch knight. is that a good prestige with archery? is arcane archer a better decision? r they both stupid?

In order: No and HECK NO. EK is for a Gish build, not an archer build. Arcane Archer is completely worthless as an archer, as a single 3rd level spell obviates their primary class ability.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 07:23 AM
In order: No and HECK NO. EK is for a Gish build, not an archer build. Arcane Archer is completely worthless as an archer, as a single 3rd level spell obviates their primary class ability.

Eh, Eldritch Knight works just fine for an arcane Archer in a coreish environment - it advances BAB and casting and gains a bonus feat, all Archer gets in Core. Arcane Archer itself obviously sucks as you already picked up. I'd go Fighter 1/Wizard 5-6/Eldritch Knight > in Core. You can fit two levels of Arcane Archer in for Imbue Arrow (the only good ability in the class), but that'll stunt your spell progression. It can be a decent option, but powerwise you'll of course be left behind.

But really, Barbarian/Ranger multiclass is pretty good for archery (Rage works just fine with archery, especially Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy )), and Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger works out too (especially with Player's Handbook II in the mix for Ranged Weapon Mastery). You really need more books in the mix to really make archery take off though. The best thing to do is really just the classic Cleric Archer with Divine Favor, Divine Power & Righteous Might to pump up the Archery Damage. Doesn't really kick off until level 9, but it'll be decent since.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-07, 08:13 AM
Here are my sugestions:

Cleric archer
Alot of the buff spells for clerics are very nice. these make great archers.

Swift hunter: Prity powerfull IMO. Lots of dmg and you still get favored enemy and other stuff. (prolly not what you want seeing as you didn't like the ranger)

Barbarian archers are pritty cool. Not optimal but realy fun to play.
Human barbarian with great bow proficentcy or a composite long bow that can handle his str. then can pump out some decent dmg.

Then there is strait fighter. I find i get a decent amount of attacks and most of them hit. Make sure you get woodland archer it makes things nice. especialy if you are making a few attacks in the round...

O ya before we get into gishes i forgot about Psiwarrior. They make ok gishes. there a mixed bag.


Gishes:

My favorite cuz it makes me laugh is
Elven paladin with the elveln racial sub so you can ranged smite.
Make sure you take extra smite feat.

Fighter wizard or fighter sorcerer's are ok... i wouldn't take alot of the caster levels unless you had to alot of the first, second and third level spells help compliment archers without being a full caster.


eldirtch knight is ok though im not a huge fan of it... mainly cuz i'd rather take fighter levels to get the feats.

Gnaeus
2009-07-07, 08:14 AM
I'm not sure how much outside core stuff is O.K., but it is worth noting that there are a lot of great non-core ranger spells that really help archers. A wand of Arrowmind, for example, lets you threaten squares with your bow and fire arrows in melee without provoking AoOs. One (or 2) level of ranger lets you use all their spells in wands.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-07, 08:40 AM
Maybe go Ranger 4/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ whatever else 5, get Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, and use your Duskblade and SA spell slots to spontaneously cast any spell from the Ranger spell list. It gets strong fairly late, but will end up with some of the best buffs and archery spells in the game.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-07, 09:18 AM
Maybe go Ranger 4/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ whatever else 5, get Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, and use your Duskblade and SA spell slots to spontaneously cast any spell from the Ranger spell list. It gets strong fairly late, but will end up with some of the best buffs and archery spells in the game.

you can do that with versitile spell caster?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-07, 09:52 AM
you can do that with versitile spell caster?

You can spend two spell slots of the same level, not necessarily even from the same class, to cast any spell you know of one level higher. You could use a 1st level Duskblade spell slot and a 1st level SA spell slot to cast any 2nd level Ranger spell, for example.

woodenbandman
2009-07-07, 10:28 AM
For arcane archer, forget wizard/fighter. Go for bard/ranger so that you can still cast in light armour. You get the bonus of your bard song and better skill points from both classes.


Except that you don't use any of Arcane Archer's class features in a meaningful way.

Really, Arcane Archer is a 2 level class. And not to mention that you get one spell per round when a true archer really wants a full attack.

ericgrau
2009-07-07, 11:17 AM
^ Only if you're taking arcane archer as a focused caster.

Straight fighter is better than straight ranger for pure archery. He can take every ranger archery feat and still have plenty of feats leftover. The thing is, the ranger also has a bunch of woodlands stuff to balance things out. If that's not the kind of archer you want, then a fighter will be stronger.

Like most caster multiclassing, eldritch knights are more versatile but weaker. Probably not what you want.

Arcane archer is an interesting animal. Their arrow enhancement bonuses alone make them far better than archer builds with the core base classes. And it's normally better to put abilities other than enhancement bonuses on your bow anyway, so your class features will stack with your +1 holy shocking frost etc. bow and various +1 bane arrows. But if you have a friendly caster in the party willing to give up the spell slot (ask ahead of time), he can enchant your bow with greater magic weapon. The bonus from GMW doesn't advance as fast as the bonus from arcane archer does, but it's enough to remove most of the zing from the class.

So I'd say just go straight fighter or fighter with some arcane archer. A cleric can also work well if you learn every buff spell there is (but avoid spending a combat round to cast one; it's a trap!), and hope your DM doesn't send casters with dispel magic at you. Get your bow enchanted similar to the one I mentioned above. For AC get mithral armor and +1's or +2's from a variety of sources (not just 1 or 2) to stay cheap but still effective. In late game get bracers of archery, then greater bracers of archery. Get gloves of dexterity of course. When upgrading any enchantment you just pay the NPC wizard the difference in price between the new item and the old. It takes him 1 day per 1,000 gp and he must meet the requirements listed for the enchantments.

Hefty Lefty
2009-07-07, 11:56 AM
thnx for all the input guys, iv sort of narrowed my decision to either straight fighter or fighter/cleric who self-buffs. combining arcane and archery just makes me weak in both. the only problem i found with fighter/cleric is that the cleric can buff melee just fine (bull's strength and bears endurance) but he can never buff archery well (can never cast cats grace). is this missing spell a typo or something??

ericgrau
2009-07-07, 11:58 AM
Cat's grace and bull's strength are short duration and usually require a combat round to buff yourself unless you have prep time. Don't waste a round when buffing yourself, it's a trap! I'll edit this post in a couple minutes with some good cleric buffs.

EDIT: Greater magic weapon, magic vestment (for AC), quickened divine favor (or regular if you have prep time at lower levels), heroes' feast (or arcane caster with heroism is even better). Did I forget any? Besides those that waste a round, I mean.

Draz74
2009-07-07, 12:03 PM
Cat's grace and bull's strength are short duration and usually require a combat round to buff yourself unless you have prep time.

Besides, once you get to Level 10 or so, you can just afford an item of +4 Dexterity, making Cat's Grace useless anyway.

LordLocke
2009-07-07, 12:03 PM
I'm assuming you're making an archery build for damage, in which case I have to agree with the assessment that if you're making a build that's wasting time casting spells, you're missing the point of an archery build. The archer isn't the character the party should be depending on to cast the buffs/battlefield control/etc. That's one turn the archer could be using to get to a good sniping perch and/or unleashing the better part of a quiver into their quarry. The only exception I can think of is Cleric, who gets the buffs that make spending that spellcasting time worthwhile (especially with DMM), and meshes well with Zen Archery. No other spellcaster is worth the BAB drop/slow progression of archery feats/lack of class features to make archery better. If you're looking for an archer gish, understand that you'll probably want to be a spellcaster that happens to be able to use a bow when there's an opening, rather then an archer that uses magic to try and make their bow more useful- the turns spent on spells are ones where a normal archer build would be rolling enough damage dice to make it seem like a thunderstorm was coming even without the outside magical help.

Roll Fighter. Get all the archery-related feats you can get your grubby little bonus-feated hands on. Get yourself a really nice bow, then spend the cash mostly on keeping it armed with the latest in magic ammo. Archery can pump out some really, really good damage if you know what you'll be fighting in advance, so use the party wizard's information-gathering skills to stay in the know so you're not bringing quivers filled with Arrows of Slay Living into a necromancer's swamp or other nonsense. The emphasis should be on boosting damage- archery builds can afford to go cheap on armor and personal protection beyond boosting your saves, since it's not as necessary when killing everything at range, frequently after finding a hard-to-reach place to launch your volleys of death from first.

If you want to have some other kind of fluff besides *twang*, multi into Ranger for the woodsy stuff, Rogue/Scout for the sneaksy stuff, or Bard/maybe Druid for the supporty stuff. But pure *twang* is the one build where Fighter 20 isn't a bad idea, since strong archery is so reliant on gear/feat progression/getting more attacks anyways with few classes adding much in the way of class features to help keep deep the damage up. (And if there's an archery PrC that does anything except make your build worse, I've never heard of it.)

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 12:35 PM
thnx for all the input guys, iv sort of narrowed my decision to either straight fighter or fighter/cleric who self-buffs. combining arcane and archery just makes me weak in both. the only problem i found with fighter/cleric is that the cleric can buff melee just fine (bull's strength and bears endurance) but he can never buff archery well (can never cast cats grace). is this missing spell a typo or something??

Divine Power, Divine Favor and Righteous Might are the 3 main buff spells to use in Core. Get a Rod of Quicken once you can afford it to save actions. And don't go Fighter/Cleric (at least initially), go straight Cleric to get to the levels where your spells truly start kicking ass ASAP.

You can multiclass Fighter after level 11 or so to get the feats if you must, but frankly, you're better off a straight Cleric.

Hefty Lefty
2009-07-07, 12:46 PM
Thanks guys. I've talked to my party about this, too, and we have someone becoming a cleric and someone else rebuilding their sorcerer (yeah, that's right, not only did I die, but it was a TPK). So I think I'll have enough friends to buff me. My Human fighter lvl 4 will scoop up: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run. thnx!

RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-07, 12:54 PM
Hefty Lefty:

What level are you starting at?
What Books are avalable to you?
Are there any house rules we should be aware of?

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 12:57 PM
Thanks guys. I've talked to my party about this, too, and we have someone becoming a cleric and someone else rebuilding their sorcerer (yeah, that's right, not only did I die, but it was a TPK). So I think I'll have enough friends to buff me. My Human fighter lvl 4 will scoop up: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run. thnx!

If straight Fighter, I suggest going with Weapon Focus > Weapon Specialization first in Core as Weapon Spec is one of the very few ways of increasing bow damage, and you need all the extra damage you can get. Dodge-line is unnecessary, really, as you can already move before or after shooting. It just allows you to shoot while moving; not very useful at all especially since you can't use Manyshot with it.

Get cross-class points in Tumble (you'll be using a light armor with lots of Dex anyways) and you can move out of melee (and then shoot people in the face, probably via Manyshot).


Also, I'd heartfully recommend starting out with Ranger 2/Fighter 2 instead. Sure, you'll need 2 more levels for the Weapon Specialization-line, but Ranger gets you the skills you want for a lightly armored archer (Hide, Spot, Move Silently, Listen, etc.) in class and enough skillpoints to max them out initially.

Mitth'raw'nuruo
2009-07-07, 01:05 PM
Ok. I did a google search for this Zen archer (feat) that everyone has mentioned.


Zen Archery: The zen archer strikes with intuition, and understands perfectly the workings of the bow. He furthermore channels a subtle enerty in his shots, known as ki. At 1st level, he gains the benefits of the Zen Archery feat (Complete Warrior) as long as he does not wear any armor, allowing him to use his Wisdom modifier for attack rolls. Zen archery does not apply to crossbows


http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Zen_Archer_(DnD_Class)

which is a (Variant Monk). When I was reading this:

Why is this monk class no good for archery? Would it be decent split monk/rogue? I am now very interested in an archery build, but am less interested in looking like a tank. (the cleric idea is compelling, however)

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 01:05 PM
which is a (Variant Monk). What exactly is Zen Archer

Zen Archery: Use Wis to hit instead of Dex on ranged attacks. Complete Warrior.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-07, 04:05 PM
Thanks guys. I've talked to my party about this, too, and we have someone becoming a cleric and someone else rebuilding their sorcerer (yeah, that's right, not only did I die, but it was a TPK). So I think I'll have enough friends to buff me. My Human fighter lvl 4 will scoop up: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run. thnx!

Shot on the Run is three wasted feats that you can't combine Rapid Shot with, it's only really good with a Swift Hunter who can Skirmish with Greater Manyshot. I'd get Weapon Focus/Specialization and probably something to boost your Will saves like Mage Slayer (CA). Get an Elvencraft bow from Races of the Wild, or just wear armor spikes, so you still threaten adjacent squares.

Consider taking Ancestral Relic in BoED to upgrade your bow more efficiently, i.e. if the party would sell looted items for half value, buy them from the party pool for that price (and get back a portion when that's divided) and sacrifice their full value into the relic to upgrade it. Your relic may have a limit on the value of its abilities based on your level, but you can store value in excess of that ahead of time to be spent on abilities when you level up. An Elvencraft bow is also treated as a staff for melee, which means each end can be enchanted separately for melee as well as the string for ranged attacks, all of which would be covered by Ancestral Relic. Get each melee end +1 Defending, get someone to Greater Magic Weapon all three each day, and always apply both of those to your AC.

If possible play as an Outsider race, such as a (Wild) Elf with the feat Otherworldly or a +0 LA Tiefling (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) and never waste a level (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) on the +1 LA and other abilities. That way the Sorcerer can Polymorph you into an Arrow Demon (MM3), which can make even a commoner a god of archery.

Doc Roc
2009-07-07, 04:11 PM
I come, as always, bearing black tidings and news of war! (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-762006)
It's not much, and it's likely higher level than you want, but it's a really bizarre, really interesting, and really different approach to the problem which demonstrates a cool and much neglected trick in a Tier 1 class.

Also, I broughted you a soulbow (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18101377&postcount=33) from the best. I miss carnivore a LOT.

Arros Winhadren
2009-07-08, 12:18 AM
I've always been interested in being an archer, but rather than doing all that Manyshot stuff I've been more interested in taking single, powerful shots. Sadly the only way I can figure out to pull that off is with stuff like Psionic Shot/Greater Psionic Shot, which isn't all that great at higher levels. Spending a move action to possibly get 4d6 to an arrow is rather lame :smallfrown:

I don't suppose anyone knows any tricks to stacking damage onto a single arrow?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-08, 06:22 AM
I've always been interested in being an archer, but rather than doing all that Manyshot stuff I've been more interested in taking single, powerful shots. Sadly the only way I can figure out to pull that off is with stuff like Psionic Shot/Greater Psionic Shot, which isn't all that great at higher levels. Spending a move action to possibly get 4d6 to an arrow is rather lame :smallfrown:

I don't suppose anyone knows any tricks to stacking damage onto a single arrow?

Yes two ways sniping shots with sneak attack or theres a scout variant that is called a sniper and they can take 1 shot and add skirmish dmg instead of moving... but there only allowed one shot... stack that with psionic shot... mabye some pyrokinesist for weapon afire and psi shot like you said and you can pump out some serious dmg.