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View Full Version : 3.5 Cleric vs Wizard!



Bobo
2009-07-07, 01:34 AM
One of my friends assures me that cleric's are just as powerful, if not greater then wizards and such, but I don't have access to any books or anything at the moment, and the recent wizard vs fighter thread left me pretty sure that wizards were fairly unbeatable. So basically, can a cleric top a wizard in terms of buffing allies, neutralizing enemies outright damage and misc stuff?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-07, 01:38 AM
This all depends on what books are allowed, what combos we go with, how rules are interpreted and so forth...

But the general answer is yes.

Kyeudo
2009-07-07, 01:40 AM
A Cleric can compete, but the Wizard has an advantage in the magic department, so for short bursts of anything the wizard will be better. For more than one encounter, though, you can keep a Cleric running as CoDzilla all day, killing things with persisted divine power and healing with persisted Vigor. Put the cleric through enough encounters and he's still smashing faces while the Wizard is running out of Time Stops and Wishes.

In a direct head to head, I'd bet on the wizard, but the odds would be 3 to 2 on that one.

Ganurath
2009-07-07, 01:41 AM
A cleric cannot be beat with buffing allies. The cleric has access to all the good buffs, more spells per level, and can use Divine Metamagic with Persistent Spell to make some buffs last 24 hours without increasing their level. The wizard's strength is in Save-or-X, because the wizard's versions of those spells don't depend on alignment relative to your character. Of course, Diplomacy is a class skill for clerics, so if you're dealing with someone of a similiar alignment (at least for Good and/or Lawful clerics) having nonfunctional Save-or-Xs isn't much of an issue.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-07, 01:42 AM
The question is about as relevant as "What will kill a person dead-er, dropping the 20,000-ton boulder on him, or dropping the 20,001-ton boulder on her?" They're a darn pancake in either case.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-07-07, 01:45 AM
In a single battle, the Wizard wins without much difficulty. If multiple battles need to be fought, the DMM Persist kicks in, and the cleric wins in the long run.

Ganurath
2009-07-07, 01:46 AM
The difference between arcane and divine magic is a difference of gender?

In all seriousness, though, the only reason (in my opinion) that the cleric isn't considered better than the wizard at everything is that clerics, being inherently beholden to a higher power, are required to roleplay. Wizards have no such obligation, and are free to fling about whatever spell is most efficient without consideration to how the sight of an aboleth being wracked by curses effects the mindset of a prodigal arcanist.

Saph
2009-07-07, 01:48 AM
Ok, this is going to take a while.

Firstly, wizards are not unbeatable. No class is. The order in D&D generally goes like this:

Tactics > Build > Class

The most important thing is tactics; how smart you play, knowing how to use all your abilities, and not picking fights with things that can kill you. Next most important is build; what feats, PrCs, items, and class features you've taken. AFTER that comes class. A badly played and built wizard isn't unbeatable; in fact, he's one of the weakest characters in the game, since with a d4 Hit Die he'll be killed by the first thing that hits one of the numerous holes in his defences.

Now that's been established, the short answer is yes, clerics are on about the same level as wizards. They can't do the same tricks wizards do, but they have a bunch of their own. In fact, at lower levels, they're considerably more survivable than wizards are, due to their better saves, HP, and AC. At higher levels wizards catch up, but clerics are still full casters with plenty of very nice spells (which they can expand further with domains and ACFs).

Clerics tend to do best as "support" casters. They buff themselves, buff the rest of the party, and cure mishaps. They're the best healers in the game - and no, when I say "healer" I don't mean healing HP. Anyone can heal HP. What clerics do is heal and immunise party members from stuff like blindness, paralysis, ability damage, ability drain, negative levels, and death, which is considerably harder to duplicate. Basically, just about anything a bad guy can do, a cleric can undo. That makes them very, very, very nice party members to have.

Clerics are not, however, as good at wizards at directly killing stuff. But then, wizards aren't as good at clerics at healing stuff, so it balances out. There are ways to get around these limitations, but in general wizards are better at hurting your enemies, clerics are better at helping your friends.

- Saph

Mr.Moron
2009-07-07, 01:48 AM
The difference between arcane and divine magic is a difference of gender?


They can both be men, or both be women. Maybe they're not even people, maybe they're puppies. Points, both very flat. Flat beyond the point where it's productive "How Flat?".

Twilight Jack
2009-07-07, 01:49 AM
The first thing to understand is that the relative power of the character classes is not best tested in PvP matchups. A 1-on-1 fight only tests how effective a character is in 1-on-1 fights. There are plenty of possibilities out there for characters working in concert, and many effective builds rely on just that.

Clerics are generally better at making the party more effective than wizards are. A DMM CoDzilla is still not going to be able to best a fully optimized wizard in 1-on-1 combat (my opinion & experience, YMMV), but he can probably bring more to the table in ensuring the victory of the party with whom he fights.

Bobo
2009-07-07, 02:49 AM
What do the terms DMM and CoDzilla mean?

kamikasei
2009-07-07, 02:53 AM
What do the terms DMM and CoDzilla mean?

Divine Metamagic (a feat from Complete Divine, burn Turn Undead uses to cast metamatic spells without an increase in spell level. Lets you uses Persist Spell to get a buff for 24 hours. Use it with nightsticks from Libris Mortis which grant extra uses of Turn Undead.)

Cleric-or-Druid-zilla. Self-buff and stomp all over everything.

Talic
2009-07-07, 03:30 AM
Note: Both sides have Cheese. Holy Word can be a no-save-just-die, for example.

Both can be built well. There are numerous ways for Clerics to gain access to traditional sorceror/wizard spells (Domains, Alternate Class Features such as Divine Magician, Spell Trigger/Completion items and the Magic Domain/Etc).

There are considerably fewer ways for wizards to get Cleric spells.

In addition, Clerics get better saves, better defensive buffs, and the like.

It's comparing a sword versus a shield. Both are good.

Platinius
2009-07-07, 03:37 AM
This discussion makes me think about the Mythic Theurge PrC.
How is it possible that it is supposedly underpowered, given their versatility and incredible mass of spells?

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-07, 03:38 AM
Ok, this is going to take a while.

Firstly, wizards are not unbeatable. No class is. The order in D&D generally goes like this:

Tactics > Build > Class



Thank you for exist.

J.Gellert
2009-07-07, 03:43 AM
1. In a straight-up no-buffs PvP combat, whoever wins Initiative. Even if you disallow Celerity, that's likely the wizard because wizards tend to have higher Dex and can spend a feat on Improved Initiative.

2. If you mean who is better overall in a typical game, that's the cleric hands-down. He can do everything the wizard can do, but he doesn't spend gold on scrolls, doesn't need a spellbook, has double the wizard's HD, heavy armor which he can cast in, more weapon proficiencies and a decent BAB. The cleric does everything the wizard can do, and do it better. The wizard is a commoner with spells, the cleric is a real warrior with spells.

A common misconception at least in my group is that arcane spells are "better" but I completely disagree - many spells are common in the two groups anyway, clerics also get them all for free, and arcane spells have spell failure. And even if you don't go outside core, many divine spells are in all ways better than arcane ones. So clerics may not get certain cheesy ones, but they can be overpowered without being cheesy.

Killer Angel
2009-07-07, 03:45 AM
This discussion makes me think about the Mythic Theurge PrC.
How is it possible that it is supposedly underpowered, given their versatility and incredible mass of spells?

Your caster levels take a nasty dive. That's less damage on artillery spells, less healing on healing spells, shorter duration buffs, you have a harder time penetrating spell resistance, your spells are easier to dispel, and so on, and so forth. There are feats you can take to remove this effect for one (or both) of your caster classes, but that requires dumping feats into that, and that's less metamagic or item creation coolness you can pull off.

You've got two spellcasting attributes to worry about. If you're a straight-up cleric, you can dump all your stat increases into wisdom, and high water take the rest. You're pretty set for bonus spells and higher saving throw DCs. But when you're a mystic theurge, you need wisdom AND intelligence, and you only get so many stat increases, and wondrous items of ability enhancement don't exactly grow on trees.

The big thing, in the end, is that you're sacrificing your highest level spells for extra variety. For example, at 11th level, as a straight-up cleric, you would be getting 6th level spells. As a mystic theurge, you're still maxing out at 4th levels. And you don't even get that much more: A cleric of 11th level, for example, would have access to 3 4th level spells (and a domain spell) before ability scores, a mystic theurge will have 4 total, plus one domain spell. If you manage to have two casty stats at 18, you'll be two fourth level spells ahead, at the cost of, er, two fifth level spells and one sixth level spell. And yes, you'll have piles of third level spells or lower, but by the time you should be casting 6th level spells, 3rd level ones aren't going to be as big an impact on significant encounters.

Now, these are just the limiting factors on a Mystic Theurge's power. They're still a decent prestige class: There's lots of things a cleric can do that a wizard can't, and vice versa, and the mystic theurge can do both. It hardly sucks, it just doesn't automatically blow all other casting options away.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-07, 03:56 AM
This discussion makes me think about the Mythic Theurge PrC.
How is it possible that it is supposedly underpowered, given their versatility and incredible mass of spells?

Actually, it's exactly because you have a mass of low level spells. Every level after 3rd this build is behind a pure Cleric or pure Wizard in every way. It isn't until 20th level that you actually get any 9th level spells, a full 3 levels behind the full Cleric or full Wizard. It's underpowered because at any level aside from 20th, you're completely behind. And even at 20th, you're still behind whichever class you didn't raise to CL17.

Murdim
2009-07-07, 04:24 AM
Dunno if it can help but, according to this video (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/showdown#start), the Holy Chuck Norris is clearly more powerful than Batman, to the point that the latter is forced to try (and fail) a Disguise check. Sadly, the video is a tad less clear about the fate of Godzilla the wildshaped Druid.

Sorry.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-07, 04:26 AM
Another note on Mystic Theurge, your spells/day may scale linearly with a single-classed spellcaster, i.e. you'll have twice spells of half the spell level. Spells themselves however scale exponentially in power as you gain higher level spells, thus six 2nd level spells/day =/= three 4th level spells/day. Mystic Theurge is typically only worth using if you can mitigate your loss in levels of spellcasting, such as using Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau to take Cleric 2/ Wizard 1/ MT.

As for which class is superior, just remember that anything a Wizard can do, a given Cleric with the right domains can copy. However, no single Cleric can copy everything a Wizard can do. Similarly, anything a Cleric can excel at, especially melee combat, a proper Wizard build can copy. That requires a few prestige classes and often ends up not being as strong a spellcaster, though it can be one of the most powerful melee combatants in the entire game while staying a capable spellcaster.

Cyclocone
2009-07-07, 04:36 AM
The general consensus on the Mystic Theurge issue is "play an Archivist instead".

That being said, Mystic Theurge can be worth it in specific builds like Wizard 3/ Druid 3/ Mystic Theurge 4/ Arcane Hierophant 10 or Bard 7/ Mindbender1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Mystic Theurge 8.

pjackson
2009-07-07, 04:51 AM
The Mystic Theurge can also be useful in a small group when multi-classing for versatility is necessary.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-07, 04:54 AM
The Mystic Theurge can also be useful in a small group when multi-classing for versatility is necessary.

Unless you're playing a game of Fighter and the Wiz then you never need that much versatility. A generic 3-man fighter/rogue/wizard party can still use the important cleric spells because the rogue has access to UMD.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-07, 05:13 AM
Unless you're playing a game of Fighter and the Wiz then you never need that much versatility. A generic 3-man fighter/rogue/wizard party can still use the important cleric spells because the rogue has access to UMD.

Why do that when you can make a Crusader/Beguiler/anything-at-all party?

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-07, 05:13 AM
Unless you're playing a game of Fighter and the Wiz then you never need that much versatility. A generic 3-man fighter/rogue/wizard party can still use the important cleric spells because the rogue has access to UMD.

The access on magic items is not the same in every campaing.

More, you could have a situation in which, power wise, the campaing work better if the access to high level spell is delayed.

Said this, never seen one of my players take it :smallwink:

Killer Angel
2009-07-07, 05:34 AM
The access on magic items is not the same in every campaing.
More, you could have a situation in which, power wise, the campaing work better if the access to high level spell is delayed.
Said this, never seen one of my players take it :smallwink:

in one of my campaign (with very difficult access to magic items), one of my players was a sorcerer 5° / cleric 4°.
MT was a significant emprovement for him... :smalltongue:

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-07, 05:37 AM
in one of my campaign (with very difficult access to magic items), one of my players was a sorcerer 5° / cleric 4°.
MT was a significant emprovement for him... :smalltongue:

Yeah, it always depends. My players in general single class casters or Caster/Prc or Caster // Caster. It always depends from campaign.*



* A word that I should really, really stop to write "campaing", see above.

Talic
2009-07-07, 05:38 AM
This discussion makes me think about the Mythic Theurge PrC.
How is it possible that it is supposedly underpowered, given their versatility and incredible mass of spells?

Because in every combat, there are an average of 5 rounds.
You have a limited amount of actions to use that mass of spells.

So in actuality, you'll only be using 20 or so spells a day.
Add to that the fact that your spells will be lower level. When the party wizard has 5th level spells? You've got 3rd-4th.

When he gets 8th level (level 15), you'll have level 6. Next level, you'll get 7th, but you're always behind. So you have more variety, but lower power.

That's why it's regarded as weak.

Cyclocone
2009-07-07, 05:41 AM
Tsukiko sums it up pretty well here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-07, 05:41 AM
Because in every combat, there are an average of 5 rounds.
You have a limited amount of actions to use that mass of spells.

So in actuality, you'll only be using 20 or so spells a day.
Add to that the fact that your spells will be lower level. When the party wizard has 5th level spells? You've got 3rd-4th.

When he gets 8th level (level 15), you'll have level 6. Next level, you'll get 7th, but you're always behind. So you have more variety, but lower power.

That's why it's regarded as weak.

Well, I'd to see one in play for sure, but this makes me think that you could spread a lot of fine low level buffs or similar spell. You should simply avoid spell whit save, or at least not use them against big ones.

Gnaeus
2009-07-07, 05:42 AM
I think the wizard wins after 17, but at mid levels I think the cleric's better fortitude save gives him an edge. It is likely to be a match of who fails a save first.

Mystic Theurge is also hurt because there are better dual casting classes out there. Arcane Hierophant is clearly superior. From levels 1-15 Chameleon beats MT. Some of the dual progression warlock and ToB classes I would also put ahead of the theurge.

Edit: I'm talking about your standard Wizard/Cleric Mystic Theurge here. Throw in some Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord and its an entirely different matter.

Brock Samson
2009-07-07, 06:06 AM
Although once you're 21st level and beyond, any theurge class is going to suddenly get a huge boost. Suddenly you DO have lots of high-level spellslot, but both divine and arcane. Then when you get epic spellcasting apparently there is double/triple win, for getting more epic spellslots.

Jack_Simth
2009-07-07, 06:40 AM
Another note on Mystic Theurge, your spells/day may scale linearly with a single-classed spellcaster, i.e. you'll have twice spells of half the spell level. Spells themselves however scale exponentially in power as you gain higher level spells, thus six 2nd level spells/day =/= three 4th level spells/day. Mystic Theurge is typically only worth using if you can mitigate your loss in levels of spellcasting, such as using Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau to take Cleric 2/ Wizard 1/ MT.
It can also be done with Versatile Spellcaster (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Versatile_Spellcaster,all) and Heighten Spell without too much trouble - you're just using either a spontaneous arcanist (such as the Beguiler, Warmage, or Sorcerer) or a spontaneous Divine caster (such as the Favored Soul) rather than having both be prepared casters; this is in case you don't want to be tied down to a specific race.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 07:32 AM
On average level, Wizard wins out (due to having more insane magical capabilities including default access to Celerity, Time Stop and so on).

At higher levels of optimization, the classes are about the same (because Cleric can replicate all Wizard-spells, Wizard can Persist all his spells and replicate all Cleric-spells he wants). Cleric has good Fort and more HP, but none of that really matters. Frankly, I'd still have to give Wizard the advantage 'cause Familiar doubles his actions.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-07, 07:36 AM
Tsukiko sums it up pretty well here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)

Indeed, you're taking a seriously large hit to your ability to cast appropriately high level spells, in exchange for more spells than you'll ever need in a single day. Sure, you may be able to get one of everything you'd ever need, but a great majority of those spell slots just get wasted because you never even use them.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 08:04 AM
What happens if we interpret nightsticks as nonstacking?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-07, 08:27 AM
What happens if we interpret nightsticks as nonstacking?

A Human Cleric with the Planning and Undeath domains will have both DMM: Persist and Extra Turning at level 1, he can get Power Attack at 3 and Extra Turning again at 6 if necessary. That's two persistent spells (3 base +4 ET +4 Night Stick with at least +3 for Cha) which can be Divine Power and maybe Divine Favor or whatever else you want. He still gets a Lesser Rod of Extend for Magic Vestment on both his armor and shield all day, with a Bead of Karma later for an extra +1 on each. Visit the Frog God's Fane and go something like Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, pick up the Destiny domain and make your second DMM: Persistent spell Choose Destiny, since you can spend a 7th level slot on Persistent Divine Favor. You don't get every personal-range spell persisted like you would with stacking Night Sticks, but you still get plenty of steam to keep going all day.

Garion
2009-07-07, 10:49 AM
On average level, Wizard wins out (due to having more insane magical capabilities including default access to Celerity, Time Stop and so on).

At higher levels of optimization, the classes are about the same (because Cleric can replicate all Wizard-spells, Wizard can Persist all his spells and replicate all Cleric-spells he wants). Cleric has good Fort and more HP, but none of that really matters. Frankly, I'd still have to give Wizard the advantage 'cause Familiar doubles his actions.


I agree, at higher levels basically all the spells are available both for the mage and the priest.
Still, using a familiar with use magic device may help the mage, but a priest with melee oriented feats could take it as well (Divine Might, Divine Power, etc). But in this kind of fight, I guess the looser might be the one who runs first out of time stops and dispells.

By the way hi everyone, and sorry for my english :p

HamHam
2009-07-07, 11:50 AM
Clerics are far more broken. Wizards have actual weaknesses, like anti-magic fields, losing their spell book, or getting hit with a lucky crit and dying.

Clerics have speed-bumps.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-07, 12:00 PM
Clerics are far more broken. Wizards have actual weaknesses, like anti-magic fields, losing their spell book, or getting hit with a lucky crit and dying.

So Wall of Force, Force Chest and Heart of [Element] don't exist. Weird. Here I thought Wizards were immune to those things anyway..

Elminster1
2009-07-07, 12:50 PM
Plus wizards get Contingency. Or even cheesier, Craft Contingent spell feat. Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Obviously Time Stop/Shapechange combo or Summon whatever I want basically. Force Cage. Persisted Shapechange. Being Invisible. Banishing the Cleric somewhere with Maze.

Clerics are powerful, very much so. But, even with super buffed combat Cleric, and saves that basically make you immune, whatever, there are still powerful spells that just dont care about saves.

You have to basically go first and kill the wizard, and that's through a Contingency.

HamHam
2009-07-07, 01:14 PM
So Wall of Force, Force Chest and Heart of [Element] don't exist. Weird. Here I thought Wizards were immune to those things anyway..

Spells that persist into antimagic fields won't help you once you are already in one.

Worst case scenario, Cleric still has 3/4 BAB and heavy armor proficiency.

And Clerics have plenty of broken spell combos. Like Greater Visage of the Deity. Oh look, I have a +4 LA template all day without any actual effect on my ECL!

And they have tons of save or dies.

Gorbash
2009-07-07, 01:25 PM
Wizards have actual weaknesses, like anti-magic fields

Which means that an enemy caster would have to approach within 10 feet of you without any protection or casting ability. AMF is as much a disadvantage to one who's casting it as it is to one you're trying to affect. And since Flight is really easy to obtain even at early levels, it will be difficult to approach.


losing their spell book

Is there a random chance that your spellbook falls out of your backpack I'm not aware of? :smallconfused:


or getting hit with a lucky crit and dying.

This situation is possible only on first few levels. High level wizards can have as much HP as a raging barbarian. Or more. Heart of Earth alone gives you additional 30 HP at 15th lvl, combine that with False Life, Greater Heroism, Channeled Lifetheft and perhaps a Heroes' Feast from a friendly cleric.

Not to mention just getting any crit protection. From mundane Fortification to combination of Heart of [Element] spells or application of Statue or Elemental Body...

Berserk Monk
2009-07-07, 01:27 PM
Clerics can heal themselves, they get more spells per day, they get more hit point, they get a greater variety of spells.

Got to go with cleric.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 01:35 PM
Wizards have celerity.

Celerity, timestop (maximized by rod or sudden maximize), disjunction, rape.

HamHam
2009-07-07, 01:46 PM
Wizards have celerity.

Celerity, timestop (maximized by rod or sudden maximize), disjunction, rape.

Clerics can get Celerity.

Gorbash
2009-07-07, 01:48 PM
If you mean via Miracle, that's 10 levels later than a wizard.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 01:49 PM
Clerics can get Celerity.

And wizards can get healing.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 01:50 PM
If you mean via Miracle, that's 10 levels later than a wizard.

You cant emulate celerity with miracle. Miracle has a 1 std action casting time. Well, I guess you could use it to emulate celerity, but I dont see what you would gain.

Keld Denar
2009-07-07, 01:54 PM
At 20, its fruitless...

Clerics have access to most of the big "screw you" spells too, like Time Stop, through domains. They also have crazy immediate action counterspells in Divine Defiance (FCII) and Battlemagic Perception (HoB). Clerics can also take Craft Contingent Spell.

So, a cleric and a wizard, both with Foresight or a Pseudoforesight ability (like Divine Oracle10) meet each other. If the cleric wins init, the Wizard casts Celerity to start his Time Stop win combo. The cleric, who is also not flatfooted, uses Divine Defiance +GDM to counterspell the wizard's Celerity. Its not the cleric's turn to Time Stop, use his +CL boosters, and ready an action to Holy Word (or Blasphemy) the wizard when time returns to normal. At that point, a whole bunch of Crafted Contingent spells go off and the winner is whoever phrases their Contingency better.

If the wizard wins init and begins to cast Time Stop, the cleric could interupt him with Divine Defiance, but then the wizard would counter with Celerity and keep right on Time Stoppin. At that point, both have a bunch of Crafted Contingen spells go off and the winner is whoever phrases their Contingency better.

And even if whoever wins wins, the've probably only killed them once. The Clone, Astral Projection, or Death Pact keeps them alive and angry, and the stalemate continues until the universe is destroyed.


You cant emulate celerity with miracle. Miracle has a 1 std action casting time. Well, I guess you could use it to emulate celerity, but I dont see what you would gain.
You COULD use Miracle to emulate Celerity during the crafting of a Craft Contingent Spell though. Contingent Celerity is pretty powerful!

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 02:00 PM
So, a cleric and a wizard, both with Foresight or a Pseudoforesight ability (like Divine Oracle10) meet each other. If the cleric wins init, the Wizard casts Celerity to start his Time Stop win combo. The cleric, who is also not flatfooted, uses Divine Defiance +GDM to counterspell the wizard's Celerity. Its not the cleric's turn to Time Stop, use his +CL boosters, and ready an action to Holy Word (or Blasphemy) the wizard when time returns to normal. At that point, a whole bunch of Crafted Contingent spells go off and the winner is whoever phrases their Contingency better.

GDM only has a 50% chance of successfully counterspelling, and the cleric needs to have access to some particular domains to use that trick. Also, his alignment needs to be opposed to the wizard so he can use the correct holy word.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 02:24 PM
GDM only has a 50% chance of successfully counterspelling, and the cleric needs to have access to some particular domains to use that trick. Also, his alignment needs to be opposed to the wizard so he can use the correct holy word.

Not on a Cleric. Inquisition-domain, Dispelling Cord, Divine Spell Power, etc. makes it trivial to autosucceed the check. That's without even bothering about Arcane Mastery or feats for it.

Talic
2009-07-07, 02:35 PM
Which means that an enemy caster would have to approach within 10 feet of you without any protection or casting ability. AMF is as much a disadvantage to one who's casting it as it is to one you're trying to affect. And since Flight is really easy to obtain even at early levels, it will be difficult to approach.Rod of widen, 20 feet. Even better, contingency it for when you get close. Further? It's not. Big creatures without magic are still big creatures. So the Half Ogre Cleric with a Base Str of 30, Improved grapple, and power attack?

Much less affected by AMF than Squishy McWizzerton.

Gorbash
2009-07-07, 02:45 PM
Much less affected by AMF than Squishy McWizzerton.

True enough. But the issue of approaching still exists. Wizards have long term flight at their disposal relatively early on, and the need to be in midst of combat (or walking range of that particular ogre) is oblivated.

HamHam
2009-07-07, 03:14 PM
You cant emulate celerity with miracle. Miracle has a 1 std action casting time. Well, I guess you could use it to emulate celerity, but I dont see what you would gain.

Greater Anyspell.


And wizards can get healing.

But they don't get 3/4 BAB and heavy armor proficiency that can't be dispelled or eliminated by antimagic fields, dead magic zones, etc.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 03:27 PM
Greater Anyspell.



Ok, you get one.




But they don't get 3/4 BAB and heavy armor proficiency that can't be dispelled or eliminated by antimagic fields, dead magic zones, etc.

They dont need 3/4 BAB and heavy armor proficiency. Heavy armor doesnt stay when you shapechange, and BAB doesnt apply to your natural attacks. As for AMF, its a false spectre. Wizards have unsurpassed mobility (dimension jumper, dimension door, mislead, etc) and can always just fly away and pelt the person with the AMF with rocks.

As for contingent AMF, thats what contingent dimension door is for.

Oslecamo
2009-07-07, 03:29 PM
Much less affected by AMF than Squishy McWizzerton.

And a split second before the now nonbuffed half ogre cleric explodes with a generic don't save, just die, he remembers that wizards can actually cast inside AMF with a special spell. And his cry of terror will echo for all eternity for daring this foul quest.

But the cleric can't emulate it with miracle, since he can't cast it inside in an AMF in the first place.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 03:35 PM
But the cleric can't emulate it with miracle, since he can't cast it inside in an AMF in the first place.

Also, invoke magic is a 9th level spell, which cant be emulated anyway.

Wizards also can do widened amf + extraordinary spell aim (or spellguard of silverymoon and selective spell). Other AMFs are suppressed by your AMF, which doesnt effect you. If they are in your AMF, you orb them, and if they are out of your AMF, you do whatever else you want.

Oslecamo
2009-07-07, 03:39 PM
Wizards also can do widened amf + extraordinary spell aim (or spellguard of silverymoon and selective spell). Other AMFs are suppressed by your AMF, which doesnt effect you. If they are in your AMF, you orb them, and if they are out of your AMF, you do whatever else you want.

This is one is still being discussed, because AMF doesn't block line of effect. Effects stop existing when they enter and reappear on the other side of the AMF. So if someone shoots a ray at you trough your ESA AMF, then it's possible the ray would worck inside your guts, making the combo kinda worthless.

Gnaeus
2009-07-07, 03:40 PM
But the cleric can't emulate it with miracle, since he can't cast it inside in an AMF in the first place.

He can if he worships Mystra.

Oslecamo
2009-07-07, 03:46 PM
He can if he worships Mystra.

That just makes the wizard's job easier. Kill Mystra (wich should be easier than killing the super optimized fanboyed cleric, since it actually has fixed stats, instead of an everchanging build) and presto, the cleric can't prepare more spells for the rest of his life.

Kilremgor
2009-07-07, 03:49 PM
That just makes the wizard's job easier. Kill Mystra (wich should be easier than killing the super optimized fanboyed cleric, since it actually has fixed stats, instead of an everchanging build) and presto, the cleric can't prepare more spells for the rest of his life.

Somebody apparently followed that advice.
But uhm, Mystra is goddess of magic!
So if (s)he is slain, (s)he is either replaced by another god, or we just get in 4E. Where the original debate becomes pointless :tongue:

HamHam
2009-07-07, 03:51 PM
They dont need 3/4 BAB and heavy armor proficiency. Heavy armor doesnt stay when you shapechange, and BAB doesnt apply to your natural attacks. As for AMF, its a false spectre. Wizards have unsurpassed mobility (dimension jumper, dimension door, mislead, etc) and can always just fly away and pelt the person with the AMF with rocks.

As for contingent AMF, thats what contingent dimension door is for.

Dragons (or other things with Ex flight) will just fly up to you and use AMF.

Also, dungeon traps that involve AMF. Or entire areas of anti-magic.

Finally, Cheaters of Mystra can cast whatever they want in AMFs so... yeah.

EDIT: If you kill Mystra, one of two things will probably happen:

a) Magic no longer works, and your wizard is now useless. The Cleric still has 3/4ths BAB and full plate though.

b) The Cleric ascends to take Mystra's place now has SDAs on top of his other cheese. Good luck with that.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 03:56 PM
This is one is still being discussed, because AMF doesn't block line of effect. Effects stop existing when they enter and reappear on the other side of the AMF. So if someone shoots a ray at you trough your ESA AMF, then it's possible the ray would worck inside your guts, making the combo kinda worthless.

So make use of the spellguard's selective spell ability. Then your AMF just plain doesnt effect you, but still covers you.

You can also go the route of shapechanging into a will o' the wisp, which grants you magic immunity and (ex) invisibility. Good luck seeing the naturally invisible thing which is also inside an AMF.

Edit: And as for mystra dying, that doesnt mean that magic stops. For one, the wizard is probably the one killing her (see: Karsus) and trying to take her portfolio. Second, who says we are in Faerun? We might as easily be in Sigil, or Eberron or anywhere else the weave doesnt exist.

HamHam
2009-07-07, 04:02 PM
So make use of the spellguard's selective spell ability. Then your AMF just plain doesnt effect you, but still covers you.

You can also go the route of shapechanging into a will o' the wisp, which grants you magic immunity and (ex) invisibility. Good luck seeing the naturally invisible thing which is also inside an AMF.

Edit: And as for mystra dying, that doesnt mean that magic stops. For one, the wizard is probably the one killing her (see: Karsus) and trying to take her portfolio. Second, who says we are in Faerun? We might as easily be in Sigil, or Eberron or anywhere else the weave doesnt exist.

What's to say it would even do anything to the Cleric then? Find me a place in RAW where it says that having you deity "die" makes you unable to prepare spells.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 04:03 PM
What's to say it would even do anything to the Cleric then? Find me a place in RAW where it says that having you deity "die" makes you unable to prepare spells.

Never said it does. Clerics can worship alignements if they want, so I dont see why their gods really matter.

Oslecamo
2009-07-07, 04:18 PM
Dragons (or other things with Ex flight) will just fly up to you and use AMF.

I would like to see your cleric take on the dragon inside the AMF.



Also, dungeon traps that involve AMF. Or entire areas of anti-magic.

Again, wizard can cast inside AMF.



Finally, Cheaters of Mystra can cast whatever they want in AMFs so... yeah.

If you're a cheater of Mystra, then it means you're not a super cheesy something of Pelor, and the wizard can eventually overpower you with enough mindrapped minions and falling rocks.



EDIT: If you kill Mystra, one of two things will probably happen:

a) Magic no longer works, and your wizard is now useless. The Cleric still has 3/4ths BAB and full plate though.

Magic in it's purest form has been confirmed to be actually in the hand of a super diety, the kind of stuff other gods worship. So it pretty much can't be destroyed.




b) The Cleric wizard ascends to take Mystra's place now has SDAs on top of his other cheese. Good luck with that.

Fixed it for you. It's the wizard who fragged the god, so he's the one who gets the loot.:smalltongue:

Mr.Moron
2009-07-07, 04:18 PM
Never said it does. Clerics can worship alignements if they want, so I dont see why their gods really matter.

They can also worship abstracts concepts, whole pantheons of gods, planes, even a number of non-god powerful entities. Theres a whole wide world of worship out there.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 04:20 PM
They can also worship abstracts concepts, whole pantheons of gods, planes, even a number of non-god powerful entities. Theres a whole wide world of worship out there.

In fact, there are really few reasons to worship an actual god. Worshipping a concept gives you any two domains you want. You dont need to worry about your alignment changing. The only problem is if you want some particular prcs.

(For the roleplaying aspect, you just lie to everyone. If you worship the concept of light, you just tell people you worship Pelor.)

Mr.Moron
2009-07-07, 04:27 PM
(For the roleplaying aspect, you just lie to everyone. If you worship the concept of light, you just tell people you worship Pelor.)

Or you can be honest about it. I've got an Cleric I'm bringing in as a replacement character soon who makes it very clear he is dedicated to Order & Goodness itself, without tying himself to a single deity. In fact he studies and pays respect to just about very deity with an alignments other than Evil and Chaotic Nuetral. He carries around displays the holy symbols of several different good & lawful gods, believing firmly they all have teachings that are worth following.

I don't see any reason you have to go about being all shady about it.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 04:32 PM
I don't see any reason you have to go about being all shady about it.

Free healing at aligned temples, things like that.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-07, 04:44 PM
Free healing at aligned temples, things like that.

You're still aligned with them, even if you don't strictly worship their god alone. A good aligned-church is going to plenty to happy to see any staunch champion/challener of good. Heck even churches of different gods but similar alignments still work together closely.

I mean maybe if your DM wants to portray all the Neutral Good institutions out there as hard-assed & selfish, unwilling to help anyone but their own without a fee. Doesn't.. feel right to me though.

HamHam
2009-07-07, 04:53 PM
I would like to see your cleric take on the dragon inside the AMF.

He has a better shot than the Wizard. Astronomically so.


Again, wizard can cast inside AMF.

How?


If you're a cheater of Mystra, then it means you're not a super cheesy something of Pelor, and the wizard can eventually overpower you with enough mindrapped minions and falling rocks.

Yeah, no. Cheater of Mystra (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=248239) is one of the most broken builds in the entire game (not counting infinite combos).

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 05:03 PM
How?

Invoke magic. Its in lords of madness. 9th level, swift action spell. It allows you to cast 1 spell up to 4th level despite being in an antimagic field or dead magic zone. The spell must have a casting time less than 1 round.

That is, you cast invoke magic, and then dim door the hell out of there.


Edit: Again, you can also use spellguard of silverymoon, cast your own AMF which does not effect you, and then use it to suppress the other AMF

Gorbash
2009-07-07, 05:04 PM
How?

Because it doesn't stop line of effect. So, you can freely cast spells to targets outside of it. Magic is surpressed only within, but not the actual spellcasting.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-07, 05:12 PM
Magic is surpressed only within, but not the actual spellcasting. That's a ridiculously dubious argument.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within I would say that casting a spell certainly counts as using it. You can't use magic in an Antimagic Field. No casting.

Platinius
2009-07-08, 04:54 PM
Or else AMF would be pointless from the beginning.

But there is one power that always works Warrior type teammates and for some reason I get the feeling that clerics tend to have more of them
It might not save you, but it makes it damn harder to kill you

quick_comment
2009-07-08, 04:56 PM
Or else AMF would be pointless from the beginning.

But there is one power that always works Warrior type teammates and for some reason I get the feeling that clerics tend to have more of them
It might not save you, but it makes it damn harder to kill you

Clerics get paladins. Wizards get golems.

Platinius
2009-07-08, 04:57 PM
Do golems even work in an AMF?

And I meaned more friends in general since people like having somone around them that can glue their arm (or other far more fargile parts) back on, said people are of basicly every class

Arakune
2009-07-08, 05:17 PM
Normally clerics are regarded as more powerful than wizards in the WoC boards because they automaticaly know every single spell in their spell list, and their power grow much faster than our beloved wizard (who still need to learn each spell). You can argue the wizards being able to learn every spell in the expansions, but it takes some time and require a little help from the DM.

quick_comment
2009-07-08, 05:42 PM
Do golems even work in an AMF?

And I meaned more friends in general since people like having somone around them that can glue their arm (or other far more fargile parts) back on, said people are of basicly every class

So why would clerics have more beatsticks than wizards?

And yes, golems work in an AMF. Epic golems (the colossi) even create their own amfs.

HamHam
2009-07-08, 06:23 PM
So why would clerics have more beatsticks than wizards?

Because all parties need healers. That's why healer classes are always the most popular in any MMO. You will never have trouble finding a party as a healer.

quick_comment
2009-07-08, 07:00 PM
Because all parties need healers. That's why healer classes are always the most popular in any MMO. You will never have trouble finding a party as a healer.

Other people can function as healers.

Lamech
2009-07-08, 07:27 PM
I thought who ever went Pun-Pun first won...

I though personally would put money on wizard using dwemorkeeper and some place nice and safe where the cleric can't get too. Like say a plane of mirrors with all the exits shattered*. Follow it up with a few wishes to send the cleric to a sphere of annilation. Then stay alive forever. In your empty worthless plane.

Also ice assassin. Enjoy your 25 copies of yourself hunting you down. Cleric isn't beating that.

The point is there is so much stuipidly broken stuff out there. So stuff has to be nerfed. The winner is dependent on what gets nerfed. The win therefore goes to whoever got less of a nerfing. If a perfect nerfing job is done the odds are 50/50.

*Or a far away corner of the plane of Shadow. Really, really, really far in deep shadow. Or down a well of many worlds. Or a random point somewhere in the infinite void of the prime. The point is the cleric will NEVER FIND YOU. And never lose your mind blank for any reason at any time.

HamHam
2009-07-08, 07:36 PM
I thought who ever went Pun-Pun first won...

I though personally would put money on wizard using dwemorkeeper and some place nice and safe where the cleric can't get too. Like say a plane of mirrors with all the exits shattered*. Follow it up with a few wishes to send the cleric to a sphere of annilation. Then stay alive forever. In your empty worthless plane.

Also ice assassin. Enjoy your 25 copies of yourself hunting you down. Cleric isn't beating that.

The point is there is so much stuipidly broken stuff out there. So stuff has to be nerfed. The winner is dependent on what gets nerfed. The win therefore goes to whoever got less of a nerfing. If a perfect nerfing job is done the odds are 50/50.

*Or a far away corner of the plane of Shadow. Really, really, really far in deep shadow. Or down a well of many worlds. Or a random point somewhere in the infinite void of the prime. The point is the cleric will NEVER FIND YOU. And never lose your mind blank for any reason at any time.

Cleric does Dwemorkeeper better.

Flickerdart
2009-07-08, 07:38 PM
Wizards can Mind Rape and Dominate more followers than Clerics. When it comes to summoning and calling, it's more or less a fair fight, but mortal servants of the Wizard will be better, and he can, as mentioned before, make Golems and such (though I suppose the Cleric could raise Undead).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-08, 07:38 PM
Because all parties need healers. That's why healer classes are always the most popular in any MMO. You will never have trouble finding a party as a healer.

D&D does not have 5 minute boss fights in which multiple people need to be constantly spamming heals on the group. Fights last around 3-7 rounds on average, counting the time it takes to CDG everything that's already disabled. A Ranger 1 or Paladin 1 with Wis 11 can use Wands of CLW (or Faith Healing) and heal everyone to full between encounters. The only in-combat healing that should ever happen is either in an emergency, such as if someone is about to die, or free healing in terms of both actions and uses of daily abilities such as from a Crusader.

A Wizard (or Cleric with the right domain) can go into Effigy Master in Complete Arcane and create a Paragon Half-Dragon x43 (insert any templates you want here) Darktentacles for only 23,000 gp and 720 XP at level 9. That has a Strength score of 382 (+186 modifier) and gets 12 attacks/round, along with Improved Grab and Consrict. Constructs certainly do function in an AMF because they're creatures, not magic items or the result of ongoing spells. The only exception to this would be Animated Objects, which are the result of ongoing spells.

Wizards don't get stuck in AMFs, they use an immediate action to either Celerity: Teleport, Abrupt Jaunt to one side and trigger a contingent teleport.

There's no way anyone could kill Mystra, because she would automatically know about anything involving her something like a week ahead of time, and would cut off their connection to the weave thus negating any magical abilities or items they would have. Shadow Weave Magic would be an option, but she can just deny you access to her plane thus negating your ability to affect her in any way. Plus she would still know about it ahead of time and have dozens of those Clerics that you'd rather avoid fighting standing there when you show up to kill her decoy.

You could just say the Wizard wins because the other three characters in his party are Clerics, or vise versa. It doesn't matter which class is 'better' because they both have their own strengths, and they both can copy each others' strengths. Both classes have a counter for every situation that could ever come up, so IMO they are equal in power. Each one tends to be better at specific roles, though either class could fill any role and excel.