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Kaiyanwang
2009-07-07, 06:16 AM
Hello Playgrounders! I have some questions about how feats, class features and maneuvers interact each other.


A) Say we have a fighter with Robilar's Gambit and Karmik Strike, and Charging feats.

The fighter (level 12) activates KS and RG, and Headless Charges Leap Attacking (thanks to Shock Trooper) a creature whit reach, say a mountain troll. The troll is not flat-footed, so smashes the fighter before he can reach the giant.

I guess the fighter obtains 2 attacks of opportunity against the troll. Does:

A1) the fighter an benefit from Leap Attack and Headless Charge bonuses and maluses? Does it depends if the fighter started or not started his jump?

A2) KS and RG trigger EXACTLY in the same moment?

A3) the fighter is allowed to make the two attacks if the mountain troll
knocks him down (monster feature, works similar to Knockdown) and if is NOT knocked down, can end his charge?


B) Now say two fighters fight each other. One is the charger above with sunder (needed for combat brute) and the other has CR + sandstill and the evergreen spiked chain.

The charger fighter.. well, charges. The chain wielder has AOOs and uses it.

But.. the charger has Robilar and Karmik. He does not have reach against the chain wielder, but:

B1) Could he sunder the chain when it strikes him?

B2) What about disarm?

B3) If the chain wielder has evasive reflexes and hold the line, he could strike an AOO, see he does not tripped, and go 1 step behind. The charger could go on and strike if has enough movement?


C) Tome of Battle maneuvers and stances

C1) Is not clear to me if is mandatory for a multiclass (say fighter 12 /warblade 1) take anyway a 1st level stance as his first stance

C2) Special attacks cannot be used with strikes. But you could with a boost, or I didn't understood well? Say, Knockdown + Raging Mongoose could be funny against a lot of small enemies..

C3) Again, strike cannot be combined with sunder or disarm unless specifically noted. But other features like: Strike and Sneak Attack? Strike and Poison? Strike and Smite Evil? I guess special attacks are trip disarm sunder but..



Thank you in advance!

Duke of URL
2009-07-07, 07:13 AM
By my reading you cannot use both Karmic Strike and Rolibar's Gambit at the same time, because a single action (a successful melee attack in both cases) only presents one total opportunity for the fighter in this case to take advantage of. Each provoking action only generates one opportunity.

In both the "A" and "B" cases, you cannot take any AoO against an opponent you do not threaten. So, for the spiked chain example, you would be unable to even use Karmic Strike or Rolibar's Gambit against an opponent who strikes you from beyond your threatened area.

C1) By RAW, the stance granted at class level 1 is always a 1st level stance.

C2) There's no reason you couldn't take advantage of a boost like that.

C3) Special attacks generally refer to a specific list of actions in combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm). Sneak Attack, et. al., are perfectly capable of being included on a strike. If it doesn't require an action, there's no reason it couldn't be combined with a strike.

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 07:52 AM
Hello Playgrounders! I have some questions about how feats, class features and maneuvers interact each other.


A) Say we have a fighter with Robilar's Gambit and Karmik Strike, and Charging feats.

The fighter (level 12) activates KS and RG, and Headless Charges Leap Attacking (thanks to Shock Trooper) a creature whit reach, say a mountain troll. The troll is not flat-footed, so smashes the fighter before he can reach the giant.

I guess the fighter obtains 2 attacks of opportunity against the troll. Does:

A1) the fighter an benefit from Leap Attack and Headless Charge bonuses and maluses? Does it depends if the fighter started or not started his jump?

I assume this refers to the penalties. Leap Attack can't have triggered yet as the jump hasn't finished. Shock Trooper only activates when you do an attack at the end of a charge, so it hasn't triggered either. You can use Power Attack though since it specifies being usable at any time during your action, but you don't have to until you actually get to make your attack.


A2) KS and RG trigger EXACTLY in the same moment?

Gambit triggers first (due to triggering off attack rather than hit). KS triggers second. Note though, KS specifies you need to threaten the opponent to take the AoO. Robilar's Gambit doesn't, but generally you need to threaten opponent to take AoOs on him; it's DM's call whether this could be taken. That said, if the fighter was somehow able to threaten the Troll while being hit, he'd first resolve Gambit, then Karmic.


A3) the fighter is allowed to make the two attacks if the mountain troll
knocks him down (monster feature, works similar to Knockdown) and if is NOT knocked down, can end his charge?

If the Trip fails, of course the Fighter can finish the charge. If it succeeds, naturally he cannot. Great reason to use a reach weapon on charge-builds, btw.



B) Now say two fighters fight each other. One is the charger above with sunder (needed for combat brute) and the other has CR + sandstill and the evergreen spiked chain.

The charger fighter.. well, charges. The chain wielder has AOOs and uses it.

But.. the charger has Robilar and Karmik. He does not have reach against the chain wielder, but:

B1) Could he sunder the chain when it strikes him?

With Robilar's, maybe (provided your DM rules you can use Robilar's without reach). Sunder is an attack option that you can use instead of a standard attack, so you could replace an AoO with a Sunder-attempt.


B2) What about disarm?

Same as above.


B3) If the chain wielder has evasive reflexes and hold the line, he could strike an AOO, see he does not tripped, and go 1 step behind. The charger could go on and strike if has enough movement?

Taking AoO means he forfeits his ability to use Evasive Reflexes on that note. However, if he gets the second AoO, he could indeed use Evasive Reflexes, but unless he somehow blocks the line of effect to the charger, the charger can continue his charge.

Much better use of Evasive Reflexes is to take 1 hit, and have Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit around to move to avoid the other attacks in the full attack.


C) Tome of Battle maneuvers and stances

C1) Is not clear to me if is mandatory for a multiclass (say fighter 12 /warblade 1) take anyway a 1st level stance as his first stance

By strict reading, yes.


C2) Special attacks cannot be used with strikes. But you could with a boost, or I didn't understood well? Say, Knockdown + Raging Mongoose could be funny against a lot of small enemies..

Knockdown works either way as it triggers of you making attacks, thus being able to trigger even off you using your Strikes. But yes, special attacks work fine with boosts, as boosts go with perfectly normal full attack actions.


C3) Again, strike cannot be combined with sunder or disarm unless specifically noted. But other features like: Strike and Sneak Attack? Strike and Poison? Strike and Smite Evil? I guess special attacks are trip disarm sunder but..

Strikes work just fine with things that don't separately need to be activated. Smite Evil is a cornercase, as it's something you need to activate, but it's not actually a separate standard action so it should work out.


By my reading you cannot use both Karmic Strike and Rolibar's Gambit at the same time, because a single action (a successful melee attack in both cases) only presents one total opportunity for the fighter in this case to take advantage of. Each provoking action only generates one opportunity.

This is wrong, Robilar's Gambit triggers off the attack (no matter whether successful or not), while Karmic Strike triggers off the hit. IT works just fine.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-07, 08:11 AM
First and foremost, thanks for asnwering so quickly at my wall of questions, guys. :smallsmile:



I assume this refers to the penalties. Leap Attack can't have triggered yet as the jump hasn't finished. Shock Trooper only activates when you do an attack at the end of a charge, so it hasn't triggered either. You can use Power Attack though since it specifies being usable at any time during your action, but you don't have to until you actually get to make your attack

So until you hit, the -X to AC instead of -X to hit does not trigger?


Great reason to use a reach weapon on charge-builds, btw.

Yeah, True!



With Robilar's, maybe (provided your DM rules you can use Robilar's without reach). Sunder is an attack option that you can use instead of a standard attack, so you could replace an AoO with a Sunder-attempt.

You know, I alway ruled "you don't have reach" the few times it happened, but one feat triggered a doubt.

Close Combat Fighting (allowing to AOO on those grappling you)! I mean, to be effective, and reading the flavour of the feat, it seems you "bite" the arm trying to catch you (it makes sense, after all).

So I started to compare the situations and think about using karmik or robilar on weapons hitting you combined with sunder or disarm attempts (regardless it would be attempted before or after being hit).

Eldariel
2009-07-07, 08:19 AM
So until you hit, the -X to AC instead of -X to hit does not trigger?

Until you make an attack at the end of a charge.


You know, I alway ruled "you don't have reach" the few times it happened, but one feat triggered a doubt.

Close Combat Fighting (allowing to AOO on those grappling you)! I mean, to be effective, and reading the flavour of the feat, it seems you "bite" the arm trying to catch you (it makes sense, after all).

So I started to compare the situations and think about using karmik or robilar on weapons hitting you combined with sunder or disarm attempts (regardless it would be attempted before or after being hit).

That makes sense, but that's not how the feats are designed. Karmic is kinda designed to allow counter attacks for being hit, while Robilar's is a fighting stance where you take more and make more.

But yeah, it's definitely reasonable to allow hitting weapons hitting you (since sensibly they HAVE to be in your space to hit you in the first place), but rules as they are mean you need to be able to threaten your opponent to benefit or Karmic Strike (and as I said before, Robilar's misses this kind of a clause, so it could work for exactly what you're looking for).