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Angelmaker
2009-07-07, 08:45 AM
Hello, friendly GITP forum users :).

I am a little confused about what material/sources currently is/are available for 4th edition. I donīt have access to the materials and as I want to cut down on the time that I have to use to create a new character ( Total party kill last session :smallsigh: ), Iīd like to ask if any of you could direct me to a crystal-keep like site for 4th edition, if there is any?

The official character sheet in excel format simply does not cut it, since you really donīt know what the most important stat for a given character class is. At least something along the lines of "your class relies heavily on str, agi" or something is needed along the basic abilities.

Any pointer is aprecciated. Thanks in advance

RTGoodman
2009-07-07, 08:50 AM
As far as I know, the only "Crystal Keep-like" thing for 4E is, well, WotC's official Character Builder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/characterbuilder) and Compendium (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/compendium), which has everything they've printed for 4E so far (almost). You can demo the Character Builder for free (but only for levels 1-3), or you can subsbribe to D&D Insider to get full access to the Builder, the Compendium, the two 'zines, and several other tools.

ocato
2009-07-07, 08:51 AM
4e got tough on that kind of stuff. However, for a subscription fee, you can get D&D Insider, which comes with a program that helps you build your character and access to the (mostly) all-encompassing Compendium.

Totally Guy
2009-07-07, 08:57 AM
You'd probably do better telling us what kind of character you want to play and we can offer suggestions.

Master_Rahl22
2009-07-07, 08:59 AM
The easiest thing you could do is download the Character Builder demo from the Wizards site. It can auto-build any class or race, including those only available in Dragon issues, up to level 3. So you can for example make an Avenging Paladin and see that STR needs to be your highest, then make a Protecting Paladin and see that CHA should be highest.

Angelmaker
2009-07-07, 09:00 AM
Thanks for the info.

I will have to make the best out of it. :) Thanks ocato, trg.

( Though if I use the compendium to check up the basic facts about any PHBII class it bugs me to subscribe... Geeez, just great. :smallannoyed:)

Yes, Master Rahl - I think I will jsut do that. Thank you. :)

@ Glug: Thank you, thatīs a kind offer. I just thought itīd be nice to have an overview of whatīs possible.

If I, for example, ask to have a tank-built I am almost sure some will say "warrior" and some will say "paladin". :]

kemmotar
2009-07-07, 09:01 AM
D&D insider is pretty much the book in electronic form right?

You could look at the 4e CharOp boards (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=867) or if you feel like looking, find a 4e thread here. That will give you the useful powers, builds, feats stat dependencies etc

Angelmaker
2009-07-07, 09:04 AM
Thanks for the link, kemmotar. I will have a closer look at those boards. They sure seem to be an interesting read.

RTGoodman
2009-07-07, 09:18 AM
D&D insider is pretty much the book in electronic form right?

D&DI is the name for the whole suite of stuff you get access to as a subscriber - the full Character Builder, the Compendium, the Campaign Tools, the upcoming Monster Builder, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and all that. So yeah, it has the material from the books in an electronic format, but it's more than just a list of PDFs or something.


You could look at the 4e CharOp boards (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=867) or if you feel like looking, find a 4e thread here. That will give you the useful powers, builds, feats stat dependencies etc

That's actually a pretty great idea. If you just Google "4E [Class] Handbook," for whatever class you're looking for (Paladin, Fighter, whatever), you're sure to come up with at least one or two handbooks that cover everything you'd ever need to know about building a character of that class (ability score priorities, best races for the class, best powers/feats/PPs/EDs, and so on).

kemmotar
2009-07-07, 09:38 AM
D&DI is the name for the whole suite of stuff you get access to as a subscriber - the full Character Builder, the Compendium, the Campaign Tools, the upcoming Monster Builder, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and all that. So yeah, it has the material from the books in an electronic format, but it's more than just a list of PDFs or something.


So is it worth it at all?

Can you just subscribe for one month (or even a day) and get all the previous dragon magazines for 4e?

RTGoodman
2009-07-07, 09:47 AM
So is it worth it at all?

Can you just subscribe for one month (or even a day) and get all the previous dragon magazines for 4e?

Personally, I think it's DEFINITELY worth the subscription fee (especially if you caught it before the price increase last week). If you only go for a one-month subscription, you do get access to all the past issues of the 'zines, plus the full Character Builder (though you won't get the full updates each month, I don't think - just the 1st-3rd level stuff). Still a pretty good deal, I suppose, but I think having the full thing is definitely cool (especially the way they release the 'zines - you get a handful of articles each week, rather than just the whole thing at the end, so you're never COMPLETELY out of stuff to read).

kemmotar
2009-07-07, 09:49 AM
indeed it sounds useful...I'll see how my friends react to 4e after our first game tho...would be useless I have it but can't play...and I wouldn't bother just so I can play PbP...there's enough 3.5 and god games as it is:smalltongue:

valadil
2009-07-07, 10:17 AM
I think the character builder works up to level 3 without a subscription. Is there any chance you're only making 1st-3rd level characters?

Yakk
2009-07-07, 10:25 AM
So, you want to use the character builder. And have a colour printer.

Building your character in the character builder, then printing it out (remember to check the option "include basic attacks" if you think you are going to use them -- melee characters probably should), then cutting out the power cards, makes the game go smoother.

You have all of the rules for your powers right there, and your modifiers pre-calculated.

And the beginning one is free to download.

Angelmaker
2009-07-07, 10:45 AM
Actually we died horribly in Baphomets dungeon of doom or whatever it was called in the minotaur city to the south of winterhaven at sixth level.

New campaign will be in Eberron at seventh level, so either character builder and/or the handbooks from the charop boards will be great help at least to check out which class looks intriguing. So far the swordmage looks interesting as we had a warrior and a paladin as defender types in the past.

Thanks again for all the help.

Yakk
2009-07-07, 11:02 AM
Swordmage works great as a 2nd defender.

Get 13 wisdom, go multiclass Wizard, pick up Destructive Wizardry and Enlarge Spell, and Sword Burst at-will power.

Close Burst 2 at-will targets enemies, that does standard damage if it hits at least 2 targets. Tasty!

(At Paragon, pick up arcane admixture (Thunder) for it, and Resounding Thunder (+1 burst size for Thunder powers), and have a Burst 3 at-will power!)

Angelmaker
2009-07-07, 11:37 AM
Swordmage works great as a 2nd defender.

We are only 5 players and everyone seems highly uninterested in playing a defender type - does this mean a swordmage is unpreferrable in a one defender scneario to a warrior or paladin? :smalleek:

Mando Knight
2009-07-07, 11:41 AM
Eladrin and Genasi make good Swordmages, as do Githyanki. Eladrin don't have a racial bonus to the secondary stat, but their Fey Step, skill synergy, and race/class combination feats from Arcane Power and Martial Power (if you MC Warlord or something) pull them ahead of the Githyanki (+Con and Int, for Shielding Swordmages and some Ensnarement (Arcane Power) powers) in my opinion.

Even if you don't get DDI, Dragon #367 is one of the free ones, and has extra Swordmage powers. For a Swordmage, you'll want access to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and Arcane Power, as well as the PHB (of course). PHB II has some handy feats for most characters *points at the Expertise Feats*, but Dragon #375 has a better feat for Swordmages: Focused Expertise, which grants the expertise bonus for one specific weapon type when used as a weapon or an implement. If you're an Eladrin, choose Longsword. Otherwise, spend a feat on the weapon proficiency and get Bastard Sword.

Fighters and Wardens are considered the best Defenders by CharOp. Charisma Paladins are slightly "worse," as are Swordmages, since they can only mark one target at a time. Strength Paladins are despised by CharOp because they're a blend of Defender, Striker, and Leader all in one package, without excelling at any.

However, if you like pinning down a single foe, preventing him from affecting the rest of the battle, the Swordmage is for you as much as the Paladin is. (They're both a bit more effective against Solos and Elites)

Yakk
2009-07-07, 11:49 AM
If you have enough in the way of Controllers, the Swordmage could do it. Then again, if you don't have a controller, the swordmage can help substitute for one (which is why I played a Swordmage when I did).

I have done a Swordmage at low levels as the only defender and controller, and basically I couldn't stop focus-fire on fragile party members. I could at best slow it down -- toss an Aegis on someone I am not engaged with, then Booming Blade someone else.

Fighters can stand at choke points and prevent enemies from running by them. A Swordmage just gets a single OA per opponent against that kind of bypass.

Really, it would be viable. But if you have a 2nd defender, you are just gross.

Leon
2009-07-07, 01:20 PM
We are only 5 players and everyone seems highly uninterested in playing a defender type - does this mean a swordmage is unpreferrable in a one defender scneario to a warrior or paladin? :smalleek:

Then don't have a Defender, the group will have to be a bit more careful but if you work as a team (which what this games is largely about) then you should be ok with what ever you choose.

herrhauptmann
2009-07-07, 06:13 PM
I've been in games where everyone is all 1 party job. Defender, leader, etc.

All leader, and all strikers were the most interesting fights.
All leaders: we just kept giving each other awesome bonuses.
All strikers: we just kept doing these amazing things that took down the enemy with cool descriptions. (This was our release of the PHB2 adventure, 2 sorcerers and an avenger. )
All defender requires a good selection of equipment and careful use of potions and secondwinds. (It was low level LFR as well, so stuff was a little different than you might get in a normal game)
All healer, haven't done it, but seems like it would be boring.
All controller: Also haven't done, but it would be interesting with the various push, slide and 'no-go' areas

Mando Knight
2009-07-07, 06:27 PM
All healer, haven't done it, but seems like it would be boring.

Leaders are the healers.

Anyway, go and ask the DM what the available material is. If the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide is a no-go, then you'll have to make due with a Fighter, Warden, or Paladin. If you can't use the Player's Handbook 2, then it's down to the Fighter and the Paladin.

Of the Defenders, the Warden and the Fighter currently claim to be the best at defending: they can mark a larger number of enemies simultaneously, keeping the targets from attacking anyone else effectively. However, the Paladin and Swordmage have their own charms, in that they specialize in shutting down the biggest guy in the room so that the Striker can beat him up, and can slide into the Leader (Paladin) and Controller (Swordmage) roles in a pinch (not recommended, though).

herrhauptmann
2009-07-07, 06:55 PM
Leaders are the healers.


Really? When I first started we had a healer cleric, and a laser cleric. Neither seemed to be much of a leader.
Then we also had a leader (tac warlord) who had SOME healing, but it wasn't enough for a long or tough fight.

Mando Knight
2009-07-07, 07:37 PM
Really? When I first started we had a healer cleric, and a laser cleric. Neither seemed to be much of a leader.
Then we also had a leader (tac warlord) who had SOME healing, but it wasn't enough for a long or tough fight.

A good Healer Cleric is a Laser Cleric: they both work almost exclusively off of Wisdom. Tactical Warlords have more healing than any non-leader class, but less than a Cleric.

However, a medium/high-Charisma Eladrin TacLord with Martial Power can take a pair of feats that together knock his Inspiring Word's healing capabilities into the stratosphere. (Any Warlord can take Improved Inspiring Word to apply their Charisma modifier to the amount healed, but Eladrin TacLords can take Tactical Inspiration to add their Intelligence modifier as well.)

The Leader role as a whole (as far as I've seen, still haven't seen a Bard or Shaman in play) focuses on three things: Buffing your allies, Moving your allies into position, and Keeping your allies' HP high enough to survive the encounter. Warlords do primarily 1 and 2, and Clerics do mostly 1 and 3. Both of them are capable of doing any of the points.

herrhauptmann
2009-07-07, 09:03 PM
Well then, either a) neither cleric was especially good or b) the encounter wasn't very balanced.
The defender just absorbed healing from both clerics and the tacwarlord because of autotracking, repeating crossbow turrets. 2 of them. Meanwhile some mechanical snakes and other stuff kept dazing and stunning the other party members.



The Leader role as a whole (as far as I've seen, still haven't seen a Bard or Shaman in play) focuses on three things: Buffing your allies, Moving your allies into position, and Keeping your allies' HP high enough to survive the encounter. Warlords do primarily 1 and 2, and Clerics do mostly 1 and 3. Both of them are capable of doing any of the points.
Had that last night. Level 4 dwarf fighter dealt more damage per round than the level 3 ranger (LFR game), and was able to hit the black dragon on a 2 or better, before getting flanking.
Reasons: Commanding strike from the taclord, and misdirected mark from the bard (keeping the orcs focused on the dwarf). Plus augment whetstone on a craghammer.
It was a 3 way fight, we attacked the orcs, then the white dragon returned to his cave. Dragon attacked everybody, orcs attacked PC's. PC's focused fire on the dragon to get rid of him before killing the orcs. Sorry, I was just so happy with that fight, I had to tell someone.

I had always assumed the leaders job was moving allies around, giving them bonuses, and giving them extra attacks. And that healing went to a different party role.


Anyway, I'm sorry for hijacking this thread. I'll stop now.

Angelmaker
2009-07-08, 04:20 AM
The Leader role as a whole (as far as I've seen, still haven't seen a Bard or Shaman in play) focuses on three things: Buffing your allies, Moving your allies into position, and Keeping your allies' HP high enough to survive the encounter. Warlords do primarily 1 and 2, and Clerics do mostly 1 and 3. Both of them are capable of doing any of the points.

A bard does just exactly that. Majestic Word allows you to shift your team, heal it and it grants temporary hit points if taken with a feat. A Valorous bard gives temporary hit points and with the feat Valorous strength ( or something like that ) a +2 damage bonus to your next attack whenever you bloody or reduce an enemy to 0 hit points. With certain powers he can grant combat advantage to any enemy striked, regardless of position - your rogue will love your for that ( be sure to delay the rogues initiative a little and then go for a rampage )!

A bard is ok to play - heīs not as amusing as a troubadour ( which has way more cool powers ), but be prepared for some heavy token dealing ( Iīve read about a bard whose GM brought along a set of poker chips, because it was just to troublesome to take care of all the status buffing the bard made. :smallbiggrin: ) - also you must be aware on your teams turn as well, since your powers work into those actions as well.

Well, thanks for all the great info in this thread. Iīve read quite a bit the last day.

Burley
2009-07-08, 07:05 AM
A bard does just exactly that. Majestic Word allows you to shift your team, heal it and it grants temporary hit points if taken with a feat. A Valorous bard gives temporary hit points and with the feat Valorous strength ( or something like that ) a +2 damage bonus to your next attack whenever you bloody or reduce an enemy to 0 hit points. With certain powers he can grant combat advantage to any enemy striked, regardless of position - your rogue will love your for that ( be sure to delay the rogues initiative a little and then go for a rampage )!

A bard is ok to play - heīs not as amusing as a troubadour ( which has way more cool powers ), but be prepared for some heavy token dealing ( Iīve read about a bard whose GM brought along a set of poker chips, because it was just to troublesome to take care of all the status buffing the bard made. :smallbiggrin: ) - also you must be aware on your teams turn as well, since your powers work into those actions as well.

Well, thanks for all the great info in this thread. Iīve read quite a bit the last day.

Yeah. Bards give out buffs and TempHP like wierd men in airports give out candy.
From seeing them in play, its kind of like marking... but, with a big bulls eye. The bard says "Anybody who attacks that hobgoblin gets 10 temporary hit points, a saving throw, a subscription to Vogue, and you drop him you get a +2 to damage later or something." Not my cup of tea (because I don't like helping people:smallannoyed:), but definately a plus to have in the party.