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Curmudgeon
2009-07-09, 01:00 AM
The really stupid part of that rule is that Fire Resistance 1 makes you completely immune to lava. I agree wholeheartedly. 2d6 damage should always exceed 1 point of resistance, right?

Zeful
2009-07-09, 01:04 AM
The really stupid part of that rule is that Fire Resistance 1 makes you completely immune to lava. It would have made much more sense to just remove that sentence entirely and make it reasonably clear that, hey, this is fire damage, fire resistance/immunity applies each time you take the damage.

Actually I think that it was supposed to read "[I]mmunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity or resistance to lava or magma[...]" which would make if very clear as to the intended rule.

Jayabalard
2009-07-09, 01:04 AM
Wait? People are complaining about the warlords healing word but not: The entire Tomb of Battle (3.5) The 4th's fighter's boundless endurance, come and get it, victorious surge, iron warrior, or 4th's healing surge mechanics?

And the inspiring word really just lets them spend a surge, so its an out growth of problems with healing surges/second wind.Actually, many of the people who complain about the warlord's healing also don't like ToB; likewise many don't like the healing surge mechanic at all. The warlord heal is just the bit that has the giant "I don't make any sense" target painted on it.

Thurbane
2009-07-09, 01:18 AM
There aren't rules for being drunk.
There arent (3.5) rules for going without sleep, either.

Sure, most DMs just handwave it as fatigue, but (other than casters who need to memorize) there are absolutely no written rules about going without sleep.

Worira
2009-07-09, 01:21 AM
Devoted Spirit's healing maneuvers are (Su). You can refluff them as inspiration if you like, but the default assumption is that they work similarly to a Paladin's lay on hands.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-09, 08:27 AM
Ok, now... Leaving that "Clerics don't need to follow a particular God. You can be a cleric of a cause" rule, that I don't buy at all...

Where the hell do Non-religious Paladins (and Clerics of causes, for what it takes) get ther DIVINE spells from?

Paladins are champions, aren't they? If they get spells... They, therefore, are champions of the gods... So... Chaotic/Evil gods can't have their own champions?

Divine magic does not come from gods. No, not even clerics who get their powers from gods. Gods get their divine powers from somewhere, as so clerics of causes. The Athar call it the "Great Unknown".

Paladins do not get their spells from gods. No not even a Paladin of Moradin actually gets his power from Moradin. A Paladin gets his power through his sheer determined belief in his cause.

Also, Chaotic and Evil gods have their own champions. They're called Clerics, and they're much better than Paladins.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 08:39 AM
Divine magic does not come from gods.

Indeed. And it's a good thing, too--if you have to worship a god as a cleric, you can make a crusading Abrahamic cleric or a pantheistic Greek priest, but you can't duplicate a philosophical Buddhist mystic, or an ancestor worshiper, or a member of one of the other various types of religions that don't have gods.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-09, 08:41 AM
Fun fact: Gods can take levels in Cleric and Paladin. And if they violate their alignment restrictions, they lose their Cleric/Paladin powers.

Also, Gods can't grant spells to Gods, so where the heck are these spells coming from? Obviously not Gods.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-09, 08:56 AM
Fun fact: Gods can take levels in Cleric and Paladin. And if they violate their alignment restrictions, they lose their Cleric/Paladin powers.

Also, Gods can't grant spells to Gods, so where the heck are these spells coming from? Obviously not Gods.

21+ divine rank deities, I guess. Maybe something like 30.

Blackfang108
2009-07-09, 09:08 AM
Iron Heart Surge is arguably a badly written manuever. But it can end things like anti-magic fields, walls of fire.

How?

Neither of those are Effects, and neither of those spells target a particular person.

Lamech
2009-07-09, 09:11 AM
Devoted Spirit's healing maneuvers are (Su). You can refluff them as inspiration if you like, but the default assumption is that they work similarly to a Paladin's lay on hands.
Err... where does it say that exactly? Not in the descriptions of crusader's strike, revitalizing strike, rallying charge or strike of righteous vitality. Nor does it say it on page 40 under "Martial Powers and Magic" So ???



Actually, many of the people who complain about the warlord's healing also don't like ToB; likewise many don't like the healing surge mechanic at all. The warlord heal is just the bit that has the giant "I don't make any sense" target painted on it. That makes a lot of sense, but... I see the warlord thing as a common 4th edition complaint. And I don't see it as a common ToB complaint. Meh.

Jayabalard
2009-07-09, 09:14 AM
That makes a lot of sense, but... I see the warlord thing as a common 4th edition complaint. And I don't see it as a common ToB complaint. Meh.I'm not understanding what you mean; the "I hate TOB threads" generally express the exact same sentiment.

Lamech
2009-07-09, 09:31 AM
I'm not understanding what you mean; the "I hate TOB threads" generally express the exact same sentiment.
Its referred to as observation bias in statistics I think.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 09:32 AM
21+ divine rank deities, I guess. Maybe something like 30.

D&DG notes that overdeities are occasionally worshiped by other gods, but that they (the overdeities) are unconcerned with the world; that could mean either that they only care about gods and not the world (and thus could grant gods' spells) or that they don't care about anything involving the multiverse and the gods worship them Just Because (and thus wouldn't grant gods' spells).

My view is that gods (and minor spirits and representations of concepts and such) are divine conduits for mortals, because mortals cannot handle divine power directly without danger to themselves; since they deities can obviously handle divine power, they don't need an intermediary to grant divine power, they just take it (see the description of what happens when a god uses miracle, for instance). However, because deities are not the source of divine power but merely a conduit, they are subject to the same restrictions as mortal divine casters--if they power company cuts the power off, it doesn't matter whether you're in a residential home or tapping cables directly outside the generator, there's nothing coming out regardless.

Indon
2009-07-09, 09:41 AM
Except the sun isn't just bright light, it's blinding light. Which should actually improve its hide modifier... which is appropriate because it is not actually possible to see the sun - you just see a featureless disk of light (which you are blinded by, in that spot), none of the sunspots or corona or anything that you'd see if you were actually able to make the spot check.

So, the sun is hiding after all, behind its' own light.


The SRD says (under the game's basics) dodge bonuses can't be granted by spells.

Haste grants a dodge bonus.

Frog Dragon
2009-07-09, 09:44 AM
Arcane spells are somehow hard to cast properly in armor, yet there is no Dex requirement to casting spells with somatic components.

Btw: there are rules for being drunk though it's 3.0 material. Check page 32 from the Arms&Equipment guide

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-09, 09:45 AM
The SRD says (under the game's basics) dodge bonuses can't be granted by spells.

Haste grants a dodge bonus.

That's not a rule that doesn't make sense, really; that's WotC not knowing the system they themselves have created.

It comes up every three words out of two, so you better get used to it.

Indon
2009-07-09, 09:49 AM
That's not a rule that doesn't make sense, really; that's WotC not knowing the system they themselves have created.

It comes up every three words out of two, so you better get used to it.

Well, the part that doesn't make sense is that if you have multiple Hastes casted on you successively, nothing stacks except a minor bonus to AC and reflex saves.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-09, 09:53 AM
Well, the part that doesn't make sense is that if you have multiple Hastes casted on you successively, nothing stacks except a minor bonus to AC and reflex saves.

No, nothing stacks, period. The same spell does not stack with itself unless it specifically says it does.

Indon
2009-07-09, 09:57 AM
Curses, I'd never noticed the 'come from the same source' clause before - I guess because it's never really come up.

hewhosaysfish
2009-07-09, 10:10 AM
Fun fact: Gods can take levels in Cleric and Paladin. And if they violate their alignment restrictions, they lose their Cleric/Paladin powers.

Also, Gods can't grant spells to Gods, so where the heck are these spells coming from? Obviously not Gods.

Where does it say that Gods can't grant spells to Gods?

I'd assumed that Gods with Cleric levels were generally Clerics of themselves.
That would mean that while they could lose Paladin powers (by not being Lawful Good) they couldn't lose Cleric spells because they would always be within one step of their deity (themselves) on the alignment grid (obviously).

If Gods can grant spells to Gods then that opens up possibilities for various interesting concepts when exceptions to the "Cleric of himself" idea come up:

Like a hierarchy of deities where the demi-gods are clerics of the lesser deities and the lesser deities are clerics of the intermediate deities and so on all the way up to some big-chief greater deity, king of heaven and god of gods. Who obvious has to get his Cleric spells through one of these other methods.

Alternatively, what about a pair of deities who are each Clerics of the other? Kinky or what?

Of course, if gods can't be Clerics of themselves (or eachother) then that also has possibilities...
What about a god who's a Cleric-of-a-cause? Can he choose domains which aren't among those he grants to his worshippers?

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-09, 10:12 AM
Arcane spells are somehow hard to cast properly in armor, yet there is no Dex requirement to casting spells with somatic components.

Btw: there are rules for being drunk though it's 3.0 material. Check page 32 from the Arms&Equipment guide

Somatic components are memorized by rote.

If you managed to learn a spell even with a Dex of 2, you obviously spent a long time mastering the gestures, but you eventually got it down. :P


What about a god who's a Cleric-of-a-cause? Can he choose domains which aren't among those he grants to his worshippers?

All gods with levels of Cleric are Clerics of a cause. And all gods with levels of Cleric get all of the domains they grant to followers. So no, they couldn't choose different domains - those are the domains they already 'chose' (or were created with, or whatever).

This means that, yes, a god Cleric could conceivably have twenty domain powers.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-09, 10:17 AM
The same spell does not stack with itself unless it specifically says it does. You haven't read the rules very carefully, I see. It's not the same spell that doesn't stack with itself; instead the rule is against the same effect stacking with itself. It's quite possible for one spell to have multiple effects. You can cast Resist Energy five different times (one for each energy type) before you get into stacking problems.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-09, 10:21 AM
You haven't read the rules very carefully, I see. It's not the same spell that doesn't stack with itself; instead the rule is against the same effect stacking with itself. It's quite possible for one spell to have multiple effects. You can cast Resist Energy five different times (one for each energy type) before you get into stacking problems.

It's not a case of the same spell stacking, though.

Indon
2009-07-09, 10:21 AM
You haven't read the rules very carefully, I see. It's not the same spell that doesn't stack with itself; instead the rule is against the same effect stacking with itself. It's quite possible for one spell to have multiple effects. You can cast Resist Energy five different times (one for each energy type) before you get into stacking problems.

No, source is mentioned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm).


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Unfortunately, that paragraph right there qualifies neatly as 'otherwise specified'.

Random832
2009-07-09, 10:24 AM
Or, to put it differently - they don't not stack because they're the same type, but rather because they're from the same source. It would stack with a dodge bonus from a different source.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-09, 10:26 AM
Unfortunately, that paragraph right there qualifies neatly as 'otherwise specified'.

Dodge bonuses. Like the one from Dodge and Mobility.

If you cast Haste on a person twice, you simply make it so it runs out later (due to the second spell being cast twice). It is a case of the same type rule, not the same source.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-09, 11:12 AM
Unfortunately, that paragraph right there qualifies neatly as 'otherwise specified'. You got the emphasis wrong.
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).
If you've got incoming cold damage, you never apply more than a single modifier to that check; you only apply cold resistance. The fact that you've also got fire resistance, acid resistance, sonic resistance, and electricity resistance is irrelevant.

Pay attention to the scope of the restriction, please.

Random832
2009-07-09, 11:49 AM
Um, no... you're basically saying "everything relevant stacks, and stuff not being relevant (fire resistance vs a cold attack) is the only possible reason for stuff not to stack". That's not what the rules say at all.

Lamech
2009-07-09, 12:16 PM
You haven't read the rules very carefully, I see. It's not the same spell that doesn't stack with itself; instead the rule is against the same effect stacking with itself. It's quite possible for one spell to have multiple effects. You can cast Resist Energy five different times (one for each energy type) before you get into stacking problems.
Err... scroll down to combining effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm)


Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
So you run into stacking problems right off the bat. Not after five times.

Fitz10019
2009-07-09, 12:16 PM
The SRD says (under the game's basics) dodge bonuses can't be granted by spells.

Haste grants a dodge bonus.

The Haste spell allows you to act more quickly. Everything else described is secondary to that effect. So, the spell does not directly grant a dodge bonus. The dodge bonus, and other effects, are the benefits of being accelerated, but they are indirect effects.

Evil the Cat
2009-07-09, 12:29 PM
Somatic components are memorized by rote.

If you managed to learn a spell even with a Dex of 2, you obviously spent a long time mastering the gestures, but you eventually got it down. :P



All gods with levels of Cleric are Clerics of a cause. And all gods with levels of Cleric get all of the domains they grant to followers. So no, they couldn't choose different domains - those are the domains they already 'chose' (or were created with, or whatever).

This means that, yes, a god Cleric could conceivably have twenty domain powers.


I've always figured the gods were just clerics of themselves. They already know they're a god, so they shouldn't have any problem believing in themselves or supporting their own goals. Now the part that could be interesting is if a lesser god is forced to do something he doesn't want to by a greater god. He would then need to find a higher level cleric (of himself) to cast atonement so that he could recover the abilities he grants himself. Fortunately, that's not entirely impossible, since few deities are statted as having more than 20 levels in any given class. Admittedly, epic clerics aren't easy to come by, but they would still exist somewhere. The part that really amuses me is a cleric giving his own god a quest in order to gain the atonement.


As an aside, you cant spot the sun. It is well hidden by the incredibly bright light all around it. I have a pretty good idea where it is, but I certainly can't pinpoint which squares its in. To further add to the silliness of this statement, I will add to it by stating that if the sun attacked me, I would be caught flat-footed.


On the somatic debate, most of it actually kind of works. However, if you multiclass bard/sorcerer, you could have charm person from each, and cast 1 with spell failure, the other without. They both cast the same in every way, except when it comes from the sorcerer side, you might mess up. It isn't a matter of training to cast in armor, because it doesn't carry over between classes.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 01:18 PM
So you run into stacking problems right off the bat. Not after five times.

It says "Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others." The line you bolded applies to things like polymorph, because you can't be both a fish and a dragon at the same time (EDIT: and in fact I believe polymorph was used as an example in the book), but not to resist energy, because you can possess multiple resistances.

TheCountAlucard
2009-07-09, 01:31 PM
Somatic components are memorized by rote.

If you managed to learn a spell even with a Dex of 2, you obviously spent a long time mastering the gestures, but you eventually got it down.Ah, but what if you had a Dex of 18, but got hit by Shivering Touch and had it knocked down to 2?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 01:42 PM
Ah, but what if you had a Dex of 18, but got hit by Shivering Touch and had it knocked down to 2?

Then it's a good thing you were fortunate to learn them when you did, huh?

Random832
2009-07-09, 01:59 PM
Somatic components are memorized by rote.

:ahem: For wizards they're memorized by rote each morning when they prepare their spells, and then subsequently forgotten when they cast them. (talk about "don't make sense" - but, then, it's magic, so it doesn't have to - they obscured the fluff some in 3rd edition anyway)

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 02:03 PM
:ahem: For wizards they're memorized by rote each morning when they prepare their spells, and then subsequently forgotten when they cast them. (talk about "don't make sense" - but, then, it's magic, so it doesn't have to - they obscured the fluff some in 3rd edition anyway)

No, the spells are prepared--the gestures and words are never forgotten, they simply don't do anything without the right spell energy. Spell "memorization" ended with 2e.

Coidzor
2009-07-09, 02:08 PM
There aren't rules for being drunk.

In Arms and Equipment Guide, they made rules for alcohol and drunkenness as a poison and how it interacts with a character's ability scores. That is to say, the drunker a character gets, the less Wis and Dex they have until they A. collapse in a catatonic slumber or B. collapse due to not being able to work their limbs properly or C. die of the poison aspect. 3.0 carries over into 3.5 where it isn't replicated. Now about earlier editions or 4e, I have no clue.

It's, of course, up to the table to determine how to play losing dex and wisdom other than how it applies to skillchecks.

Also, the rubric of assigning spell-failure chances seems to be rather divorced from the armor's ability to actually hinder one's movement. A chain shirt is less restrictive than padded armor due to the fact that a chain shirt is sleeveless and has no effect on the arms whereas padded armor is thick, reinforced cloth and does cover the arms and shoulders. Though why you'd need to be able to reach over your shoulder and scratch your butt to cast a spell, I don't want to consider. Platemail, heck, chain mail, I can understand due to the fact that if you're not proficient in it, the weight of wearing it alone gets you off kilter, and it does noticeably and appreciably impede one's dextrousness and range/rate of motion.

Oh oh oh! The fact that you can't just cast a spell out of a spell book by reciting it in its entirety rather than committing everything to memory and activating it with the spell trigger incantation. I mean, honestly, it takes the wizard how long to read over it to have all of his spells for that day move into his brain, taking less and less time as he gains in levels despite having more spells and more complex spells to memorize, but he can't take like a short ritual or even a half hour to cast it straight?

And why only once a day can he memorize spells? Why not after every sufficient amount of REM cycles/rest to reset the brain-equivalent?

Random832
2009-07-09, 02:09 PM
Anyway, another rule that doesn't make sense: Darkvision. (I've posted some thoughts on fixing it, along with the reasons it doesn't make sense, in my other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117760).)

Indon
2009-07-09, 02:56 PM
Oh oh oh! The fact that you can't just cast a spell out of a spell book by reciting it in its entirety rather than committing everything to memory and activating it with the spell trigger incantation. I mean, honestly, it takes the wizard how long to read over it to have all of his spells for that day move into his brain, taking less and less time as he gains in levels despite having more spells and more complex spells to memorize, but he can't take like a short ritual or even a half hour to cast it straight?

And why only once a day can he memorize spells? Why not after every sufficient amount of REM cycles/rest to reset the brain-equivalent?

AD&D ran spells as you describe here - it took 10 minutes times the spell level to be able to memorize a spell, and you could theoretically just bust out the spellbook, memorize a spell into a free slot, and cast it on the spot.

But it made casting obnoxous since, well, it took 90 minutes just to be able to cast a single 9th level spell, so your ability to replenish spells outside of downtime was pretty weak.

Incidentally, that was one of the logistics balances on Wizards that was removed when they streamlined the system in 3'rd edition.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 03:12 PM
AD&D ran spells as you describe here - it took 10 minutes times the spell level to be able to memorize a spell, and you could theoretically just bust out the spellbook, memorize a spell into a free slot, and cast it on the spot.

But it made casting obnoxous since, well, it took 90 minutes just to be able to cast a single 9th level spell, so your ability to replenish spells outside of downtime was pretty weak.

Incidentally, that was one of the logistics balances on Wizards that was removed when they streamlined the system in 3'rd edition.

Actually, it's 15 minutes per level--I checked recently in the process of trying to bring a 2e feel to 3e. It's a pain, but it makes you value those higher-level spells more.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-09, 03:20 PM
Actually, it's 15 minutes per level--I checked recently in the process of trying to bring a 2e feel to 3e. It's a pain, but it makes you value those higher-level spells more.

In fact, I've known Wizards that never cast their 9th level spells because "when would I get to prepare one again?".

Curmudgeon
2009-07-09, 03:49 PM
Err... scroll down to combining effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm)
You're not the first person to get confused by looking only at the SRD's abbreviated version of this rule. Let's instead look at the actual source:
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail. In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts. "Varying effects" refers to a spell for which the results change over time (by repeated casting), of which Polymorph is an example. Resist Energy does not have that property; it can produce up to five different effects, as opposed to Polymorph's single varying effect. And "effects become irrelevant" is descriptive, rather than proscriptive.

So you run into stacking problems right off the bat. As you can see, you don't. The rule synopsis in the SRD is just misleading.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-09, 04:15 PM
Iron Heart Surge is arguably a badly written manuever. But it can end things like anti-magic fields, walls of fire. See how that gets into magic territory? And if the effect is something like a large fire? Big problem there. I can see it ending say geas and explaining it as shrugging off something, but not a fire.

To put it simply: His presence and will creates magic strong enough to overwhelm the effects of the AMF. Likewise, his sheer force of will is great enough that the fire s***s itself and extinguishes.



Here's a wacky rule for you: IHS can kill you if your character is emo.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-09, 04:48 PM
:ahem: For wizards they're memorized by rote each morning when they prepare their spells, and then subsequently forgotten when they cast them. (talk about "don't make sense" - but, then, it's magic, so it doesn't have to - they obscured the fluff some in 3rd edition anyway)

That's not how it works.

Most spells (the way wizards do them) take several minutes to cast. Wizards prepare spells ahead of time, casting most of the spell and then storing the nearly-formed spell in their mind, ready to be let loose.

The verbal and somatic components are triggers for the magic, and nothing more. Silent Spell and Still Spell modify the spell slightly so that it can be triggered without all of the triggers. (There's also a mental trigger, of course.)

Material components and focuses are a part of the magic, however... which makes one wonder how Eschew Materials works.

(Divine prepared casters get the almost-entirely-formed spells shoved into their minds by their god/nature/The Great Unknown, and use similar triggers to let it go.)

Curmudgeon
2009-07-09, 04:56 PM
Iron Heart Surge is arguably a badly written manuever. But it can end things like anti-magic fields, walls of fire. Wall of Fire yes; Antimagic Field I think not. You've got to pay attention to the exact wording. The Iron Heart Surge maneuver will immediately end "one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds." This specification is grammatically distinct from "1 round or longer", so the Surge is only effective against impediments with a stated duration of some number of rounds; durations expressed in minutes or other units of time are unaffected.

Grammar police: protecting and serving your gaming table. :biggrin:

Worira
2009-07-09, 05:19 PM
Uh... 10 minutes is more than one round. It's 100 rounds.

As for the Devoted Spirit maneuvers not being (Su), huh. It looks like WotC snuck sneaked snuck sneaked snuck sneaked snuck sneaked snuck sneaked entered my house through covert means and changed the wording in my copy of the ToB. My hard copy.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-09, 05:28 PM
Uh... 10 minutes is more than one round.
Yes, it is. But it isn't "1 or more rounds".

It's 100 rounds. Mathematically equivalent. Not gramatically identical.

EDIT: Here's an analogy. A beanstalk is more than a bean. But it isn't "1 or more beans".

Worira
2009-07-09, 05:45 PM
Yes, because the stalk itself isn't a bean. A minute is composed of rounds. This isn't a beanstalk, it's all the beans from a beanstalk.

Ninetail
2009-07-09, 06:08 PM
Because its default fluff is an explosion.

Anyway, that's beside the point. Chiasaur posits that a warlord's Inspiring Word (one of those "rules that don't make sense") works on unconscious allies because sometimes, unconscious people can be awaked by loud noises. It follows, then, that anything else that makes a louder noise would have the same effect. Since that doesn't in fact happen, per reductio ad absurdum, it follows that IW doesn't in fact work that way. We are then still lacking an explanation of how it does work on unconscious (or deaf) people.

Maybe it's words. Being unconscious doesn't mean they can't hear you on some level.

Before you post a knee-jerk response, look into some of the studies that've been done regarding comatose patients' brains' responses to people talking to them.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-09, 06:12 PM
Maybe it's words. Being unconscious doesn't mean they can't hear you on some level.

Yes. Yes it does. Being unconscious means possessing no conscious thought at all - so there's no way to actually react to someone speaking to you.

(Despite popular misconception, sleep is not unconsciousness. Routinely going unconscious will result in brain damage in some cases. Not a very good survival technique!)

erikun
2009-07-09, 06:22 PM
The Iron Heart Surge maneuver will immediately end "one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds." This specification is grammatically distinct from "1 round or longer", so the Surge is only effective against impediments with a stated duration of some number of rounds; durations expressed in minutes or other units of time are unaffected.
Using this logic, you immediately drown upon entering any body of water unless in combat, because you can only hold your breath a number of rounds and there are no rounds outside of combat.

Really, interpretations of the rules that promote Super Drowning Skills (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperDrowningSkills)?

Ninetail
2009-07-09, 06:38 PM
Yes. Yes it does. Being unconscious means possessing no conscious thought at all - so there's no way to actually react to someone speaking to you.

(Despite popular misconception, sleep is not unconsciousness. Routinely going unconscious will result in brain damage in some cases. Not a very good survival technique!)

Now read the second part of what I posted, then look into what I told you to look into, then come back here and retract your post. :p

Unless you're going to argue that comatose is not the same thing as unconsciousness, that is.

Kurald Galain
2009-07-10, 01:48 AM
Maybe it's words. Being unconscious doesn't mean they can't hear you on some level.

Well, see, here's the thing: if an unconscious person can hear you (which frankly is not a given), then (1) that doesn't mean he can snap instantly awake, and (2) it doesn't explain why he can hear only the warlord and not the rest of the party.

lesser_minion
2009-07-10, 04:29 AM
I think the justification for Inspiring Word restoring a character from zero or fewer hitpoints is meant to be that the character is 'incapacitated' rather than fully unconscious - i.e. too badly hurt to actually do anything, but still vaguely conscious. Quite a bit worse than TKO'd but still conscious on some level.

Of course, the power still works on characters who are definitely unconscious.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-10, 04:53 AM
Do you recognize that the whole Warlord class needs a lot of work and "explain warlord powers" could be a discipline in the next olimpic games?

OK in rpg sometimes something needs handwaving, but...

Hat-Trick
2009-07-10, 04:58 AM
Apparently the Warlord trains to yell at people so much, it works to astonishing effect...

Interesting visual:

Drill Instructor: "Alright! 1,2,3-"
Recruits: "Suck It Up!"
Drill Instructor: "And Again!"

Sebastian
2009-07-10, 05:30 AM
Oh oh oh! The fact that you can't just cast a spell out of a spell book by reciting it in its entirety rather than committing everything to memory and activating it with the spell trigger incantation. I mean, honestly, it takes the wizard how long to read over it to have all of his spells for that day move into his brain, taking less and less time as he gains in levels despite having more spells and more complex spells to memorize, but he can't take like a short ritual or even a half hour to cast it straight?


You can, if you have a free slot you can ready a spell in 15 minutes. Beside you don't memorize spells, you prepare them, think to a recipe, you could read a recipe for a cake in less than 5 minutes, you still need more time than that to prepare it.

Coidzor
2009-07-10, 05:36 AM
You can, if you have a free slot you can ready a spell in 15 minutes. Beside you don't memorize spells, you prepare them, think to a recipe, you could read a recipe for a cake in less than 5 minutes, you still need more time than that to prepare it.

Prepare, memorize, pre-cast most of the spell... That's secondary to the question, why no ritual-length casting that doesn't require taking part of the spell inside of oneself. As there has to be some kind of metaphysical "room" for the spell to occupy for spell-slots to make sense

If preparing spells for the day involves mostly casting them anyway, then why not just skip the step of carrying it around with ya if it's something like identify or wall of stone that you're using in a down-time, no-rush setting.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-10, 06:00 AM
Sure, you can do that. Nothing says you can't prepare a spell and then immediately cast it.

But nevertheless, you still only have a certain amount of "mental energy" that you need to do the final trigger for the spells, no matter how many times in a day you prepare your spells.

Spellcasting is fluffed as being somewhat exhaustion, mentally - higher level wizards have more 'mental stamina' than lower-level ones, so they can cast more spells as well as being able to cast more complex spells.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-10, 07:09 AM
Spellcasting is fluffed as being somewhat exhaustion, mentally - higher level wizards have more 'mental stamina' than lower-level ones, so they can cast more spells as well as being able to cast more complex spells.

Which would make a lot more sense if bonus spells were always based on Wisdom (mental constitution, as it were) and that casting a certain number of spells caused fatigue.

There probably is a system like that, but its name eludes me at the moment. Probably based on a 20-sided die and truer to the source... I don't know, there must be something. :smalltongue:

Satyr
2009-07-10, 07:13 AM
Steve Jackson Games used to publish one or two collections of stupid RPG rules. My personal favorite in D&D was always, that you could play a cleric of yourself and grant yourself 1st and 2nd level spells...

warmachine
2009-07-10, 07:32 AM
Ah, yes. The hilarity of Murphy's Rules.

In GURPS 3e, you can put on full plate armour and be better at dodging.
In GURPS (3e and 4e), an average person going forced cold turkey from tobacco smoking will almost certainly die.
In the Battletech CCG, the Move to Partial Cover card prevents overheat damage.
In GURPS, the penalty for fighting in pitch blanckness is -10 whereas the penalty for being on fire is -2. In the dark, one can greatly improve your combat chances by setting yourself on fire. That does makes sense but I find it hilarious.

Blackfang108
2009-07-10, 08:26 AM
Do you recognize that the whole Warlord class needs a lot of work and "explain warlord powers" could be a discipline in the next olimpic games?

OK in rpg sometimes something needs handwaving, but...

As I've said before, it makes sense if you just THINK about it for a few minutes. Most of the "it doesn't make sense" posts are knee-jeark reactions that the poster is trying to justify/prove.

Have you ever gone running? Played paintball? Football(either one)? Done any other sport (except golf, billiards, or darts)?

While playing or training, have you ever gotten to a point where your body feels like it's giving out? And you were able to get a burst of energy and keep going?

That's being low on HP. Inspiring word is the crowd/coach/captain/music on your ipod motivating you to keep going. Second Wind is when you get that burst on your own. (Unless you're a warlord IRL, in which case the line blurs.)

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-10, 08:35 AM
As I've said before, it makes sense if you just THINK about it for a few minutes. Most of the "it doesn't make sense" posts are knee-jeark reactions that the poster is trying to justify/prove.

Have you ever gone running? Played paintball? Football(either one)? Done any other sport (except golf, billiards, or darts)?

While playing or training, have you ever gotten to a point where your body feels like it's giving out? And you were able to get a burst of energy and keep going?

That's being low on HP. Inspiring word is the crowd/coach/captain/music on your ipod motivating you to keep going. Second Wind is when you get that burst on your own. (Unless you're a warlord IRL, in which case the line blurs.)

So please explain how can I poison a dagger, stab you, you get poisoned, a warlord yells to you*, you heal but you keep the poison in your body .

Explain.


* because by schroedinger, only when the warlord yells we discover the true behind the stab: was not a stab, was only fatiguing. No, not a scracth able to kill a commoner and not an hero: a mere FATIGUE.

Arcane Copycat
2009-07-10, 08:42 AM
So please explain how can I poison a dagger, stab you, you get poisoned, a warlord yells to you*, you heal but you keep the poison in your body .

Explain.


* because by schroedinger, only when the warlord yells we discover the true behind the stab: was not a stab, was only fatiguing. No, not a scracth able to kill a commoner and not an hero: a mere FATIGUE.

It gives you the mental strength to push the pain to the back your head and keep fighting, I'd guess.

I used to do athletics as a kid, and I'd always be trying to do the same, push the pain and fatigue to the back of my head and keep going. How? By repeating 'It's just pain, it's just pain' over and over.

So convert that to the stabbing. You just go stabbed by a poison dagger. You're feeling kind of woozy. You also happen to be a warlord. Telling yourself 'It's just a ****ing flesh wound' is going to make you keep going, but the poison will still course through your veins. You'll succumb to the effects of the poison, but you'll still keep on fighting

That's just me though, I could be crazy

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-10, 08:47 AM
It gives you the mental strength to push the pain to the back your head and keep fighting, I'd guess.

I used to do athletics as a kid, and I'd always be trying to do the same, push the pain and fatigue to the back of my head and keep going. How? By repeating 'It's just pain, it's just pain' over and over.

So convert that to the stabbing. You just go stabbed by a poison dagger. You're feeling kind of woozy. You also happen to be a warlord. Telling yourself 'It's just a ****ing flesh wound' is going to make you keep going, but the poison will still course through your veins. You'll succumb to the effects of the poison, but you'll still keep on fighting

That's just me though, I could be crazy

That's could be more acceptable but, you see, we are far away from the "fatigue" or "only an amount of blows are true" thing.

And this not explain how can I be at full HP like one never even scratched.

And none explained what KG said about earing when unconscious.

And this could happen all the day. Then I go rest, a night restores HP and surges, and everthing is gonna be alright.

Except that you start to think about it, and since the Warlord didn't mend your wounds, but just yelled you, after few days you are a pasta colander.


Do you realize that all of us, we are really swearing to explain something that should be intuitive?

Indon
2009-07-10, 08:49 AM
That's being low on HP. Inspiring word is the crowd/coach/captain/music on your ipod motivating you to keep going. Second Wind is when you get that burst on your own. (Unless you're a warlord IRL, in which case the line blurs.)

Except it's to a level that breaks suspention of disbelief for many.

It'd be hilarious if it worked that way in real life.

Drill Sgt: "I WILL NOT LET YOU DIE OF HEAT EXAUSTION IN MY ARMY!"
Recruit (standing back up from near-death): "Yes, Drill Sergeant!"

Wait, did I say hilarious? I meant horrifying to people joining the military. You'd essentially be continually yelled back to life.

Arcane Copycat
2009-07-10, 08:55 AM
That's could be more acceptable but, you see, we are far away from the "fatigue" or "only an amount of blows are true" thing.

And this not explain how can I be at full HP like one never even scratched.

And none explained what KG said about earing when unconscious.

And this could happen all the day. Then I go rest, a night restores HP and surges, and everthing is gonna be alright.

You learn to ignore pain. If you can ignore pain, then as ar as your concerned, it never really happened. That's my best guess for the first. Not the most technical, I know, but hey, it's all I got for this one.

The second... well they say people in comas can still hear you... maybe you can still hear the warlord shouting at you to get up, and it stirs you enough to start moving again. Again, not the best explanation, but it's all I can think of.

And yeah, the sleeping everything off thing (apart from diseases) is something I'm not going to touch.

FYI: I don't like Warlords. They bore me. I tried playing one, it didn't work.

Zeful
2009-07-10, 08:59 AM
You learn to ignore pain. If you can ignore pain, then as ar as your concerned, it never really happened. That's my best guess for the first. Not the most technical, I know, but hey, it's all I got for this one.

If you fully ignore pain and it's source, you could cripple yourself permanently. It's when you treat pain as nothing more than the signal telling your body that you are injured that you can safely continue with whatever your doing.

Arcane Copycat
2009-07-10, 09:04 AM
If you fully ignore pain and it's source, you could cripple yourself permanently. It's when you treat pain as nothing more than the signal telling your body that you are injured that you can safely continue with whatever your doing.

That's a better way of putting it. I meant for things like stitches, maybe your legs are getting a bit tired ,etc.etc. If it were a muscle tear or something, that would be a different story.

SirKazum
2009-07-10, 09:19 AM
Ah, yes. The hilarity of Murphy's Rules.

In GURPS 3e, you can put on full plate armour and be better at dodging.
In GURPS (3e and 4e), an average person going forced cold turkey from tobacco smoking will almost certainly die.
In the Battletech CCG, the Move to Partial Cover card prevents overheat damage.
In GURPS, the penalty for fighting in pitch blanckness is -10 whereas the penalty for being on fire is -2. In the dark, one can greatly improve your combat chances by setting yourself on fire. That does makes sense but I find it hilarious.


Self-immolation: prevents ninjas (http://drmcninja.com/page.php?pageNum=15&issue=4), explosions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6455881&postcount=29) AND helps you fight in the dark! Is there anything it can't do?

John Campbell
2009-07-10, 12:46 PM
Oh, here's a fun one:

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#visionAndLight)

Not, "Creatures without darkvision cannot see things that are in darkness," but, "Creatures without darkvision that are in darkness cannot see."

This means that if you're standing in the middle of an open plain on a moonless night, holding a lit torch (which casts bright light in a 20' radius and shadowy illumination in a 40' radius), a normal human standing fifty feet away cannot see you. As other rules in that section explain, you're clearly illuminated and therefore cannot hide (without invisibility or the like), but nevertheless the observer can't see you, because he's outside the radius of shadowy illumination and therefore blind.

However, if the observer lights a candle, thus shadowily-illuminating himself, his blindness goes away and he can see you (though only "dimly", which appears to have no game effect) at any distance.

chiasaur11
2009-07-10, 01:14 PM
Ah, yes. The hilarity of Murphy's Rules.

In GURPS 3e, you can put on full plate armour and be better at dodging.
In GURPS (3e and 4e), an average person going forced cold turkey from tobacco smoking will almost certainly die.
In the Battletech CCG, the Move to Partial Cover card prevents overheat damage.
In GURPS, the penalty for fighting in pitch blanckness is -10 whereas the penalty for being on fire is -2. In the dark, one can greatly improve your combat chances by setting yourself on fire. That does makes sense but I find it hilarious.


Of course.

Everyone knows fights in the dark are infested by ninjas and Grues. On fire, you can avoid both hazards.

Ninetail
2009-07-10, 11:47 PM
Well, see, here's the thing: if an unconscious person can hear you (which frankly is not a given), then (1) that doesn't mean he can snap instantly awake,


Cinematic. Enough said.


and (2) it doesn't explain why he can hear only the warlord and not the rest of the party.

Who says he can't? The bard could have (almost) exactly the same effect as the warlord, after all.

Now, if you're asking why the unconscious guy doesn't respond in the same way to, say, a wizard as he would to a warlord or bard... that's because the warlord and bard are really good at drawing out that reaction, while the wizard is not.

Similarly, if the warlord wiggles his fingers and chants some nonsense words, he does not cast Fireball, even if he appears to be doing the same thing that the wizard does when she casts Fireball.

Dixieboy
2009-07-11, 02:01 AM
You can, with a feat, turn your casting stat into strength.

That
Does not make sense.

Casting using only the sheer size of your biceps! :smallbiggrin:
I understand effects like "Fascinate"

But fireballs, orbs of (Insert stuff), teleportation and what have you...
Not so much

magellan
2009-07-11, 08:55 AM
Cinematic. Enough said.



Who says he can't? The bard could have (almost) exactly the same effect as the warlord, after all.

Now, if you're asking why the unconscious guy doesn't respond in the same way to, say, a wizard as he would to a warlord or bard... that's because the warlord and bard are really good at drawing out that reaction, while the wizard is not.

Similarly, if the warlord wiggles his fingers and chants some nonsense words, he does not cast Fireball, even if he appears to be doing the same thing that the wizard does when she casts Fireball.

Any daily: Why doesnt it do the same thing if i do the same thing on the same day?
Any encounter: Why doesn't it do the same thing if i do the same thing in the same encounter?

It makes no sense. No explanation ever will make it make sense. You either accept it as "part of the game" or you don't.

(What? they removed the 10 min per spell level rule? why that? it's straight forward, not even lots of bookkeeping and if time is not an issue (Like in between adventures) you would say "yeah, you get all your spells back" anyway? *imagines 3rd ed designers: "Lets remove thaco because, you know subtraction is kinda hard." - "you know what else is hard? multiplying by 10!" *shakes head*)

Coidzor
2009-07-11, 08:59 AM
Any daily: Why doesnt it do the same thing if i do the same thing on the same day?
Any encounter: Why doesn't it do the same thing if i do the same thing in the same encounter?

It makes no sense. No explanation ever will make it make sense. You either accept it as "part of the game" or you don't.

(What? they removed the 10 min per spell level rule? why that? it's straight forward, not even lots of bookkeeping and if time is not an issue (Like in between adventures) you would say "yeah, you get all your spells back" anyway? *imagines 3rd ed designers: "Lets remove thaco because, you know subtraction is kinda hard." - "you know what else is hard? multiplying by 10!" *shakes head*)

Well, one thing you could do would be to have an actual recharge time or range of recharge times (y'know, die roll * X minutes, rounds, hours, that sort of thing) so that something is effectively only once per encounter unless said encounter is a ****-long encounter for some ungodly reason, but also attempts to explain the level of/nature of fatigue for it.

Unless it's not supernatural in the slightest or even something that should really tire a character out relative to all the other stuff they're doing like it's nothing.

Kris Strife
2009-07-11, 10:42 AM
You can, with a feat, turn your casting stat into strength.

That
Does not make sense.

Casting using only the sheer size of your biceps! :smallbiggrin:
I understand effects like "Fascinate"

But fireballs, orbs of (Insert stuff), teleportation and what have you...
Not so much

A: You threaten reality
B.Well, trying to put the image in directly didn't work, heres the URL: http://media.photobucket.com/image/Superboy%20Punching%20Reality/Superman-Prime_Respect/Realityalterpunch2.jpg

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-11, 10:50 AM
Any encounter: Why doesn't it do the same thing if i do the same thing in the same encounter?

It makes no sense. No explanation ever will make it make sense. You either accept it as "part of the game" or you don't.

Encounters are easier to rationalize--either it requires certain circumstances you can't pull off more than once, or your opponent won't fall for it twice, or something similar. This breaks down when you have new opponents who might fall for it, of course, but in that case you'd use another explanation. Dailies, however, I agree make very little sense.

magellan
2009-07-11, 11:46 AM
Encounters are easier to rationalize--either it requires certain circumstances you can't pull off more than once, or your opponent won't fall for it twice, or something similar. This breaks down when you have new opponents who might fall for it, of course, but in that case you'd use another explanation. Dailies, however, I agree make very little sense.

Yet those circumstances appear in a magical and undefined fashion exactly once and only once per encounter, because, as most circumstances, they take their work serious and have a high work ethic :)

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-11, 03:00 PM
Yet those circumstances appear in a magical and undefined fashion exactly once and only once per encounter, because, as most circumstances, they take their work serious and have a high work ethic :)

The difference is that you might be able to rationalize why you can only manage to, for example, bash someone four times with your weapon once per combat, since he'd be on the lookout for it later, but you wouldn't be able to explain why you couldn't do that to someone in a later combat who didn't see the first thing. I never said it's believable out of the box, just that's it's possible to make it believable with a combination of circumstances and fooling enemies, where that doesn't work at all for dailies.

Indon
2009-07-11, 03:10 PM
You can, with a feat, turn your casting stat into strength.

Do you know of the anime/manga "Full Metal Alchemist"?

There's a character who has clearly taken this feat.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-11, 03:18 PM
Did...did someone just link me to a jpg of superman (Boy?)...punching reality?

Or have the meds kicked in? Nurse!?

Indon
2009-07-11, 03:33 PM
From reading a bit more, he's apparently a grown-up Superboy, somehow trapped in a reality-limbo, and he decided to go crazy on reality to try to... I dunno, fix something?

Alternately, he may just be being a ****.

Ravens_cry
2009-07-11, 03:35 PM
Did...did someone just link me to a jpg of superman (Boy?)...punching reality?

Or have the meds kicked in? Nurse!?
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/40/81560-186971-superboy-prime_super.png
This may be it.

Kris Strife
2009-07-11, 04:45 PM
Did...did someone just link me to a jpg of superman (Boy?)...punching reality?

Or have the meds kicked in? Nurse!?

Yes, yes I did put up that link. Though the meds maybe be partially to blame. :p

After Crisis on Infinite Earths, Superboy punches reality hard enough to change it to his will. Str as a casting stat. :smallamused: