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Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 03:16 PM
okay. my dragonborn paladin currently has these stats.
17 str
17 cha
15 wis
12 con
10 dex
8 int.

I have a feeling I messed up when creating her very badly. can anybody help me create a more effective Paladin once I retire this one? also should I go for a fullblade or a bastard sword and heavy shield?

NPCMook
2009-07-07, 03:18 PM
Paladin's are more Sword and Board than wielding giant weapons, what level are you currently? What feats have you taken? What is your current Powers Roster?

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 03:45 PM
level 3. holy and bolstering strike, paladin's judgement, astral speech and righteous smite.my feats are healing hands and weapon proficiency bastard sword. I was thinking of switching my stats for wisdom and dexterity so that there would be more feats of use to me.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-07-07, 04:05 PM
I'd focus on either strength or charisma, but not both. I'd personally go with charisma, since the powers tend to be better, and it will make you a better defender by making your mark do more damage. You can then pick up the melee training feat to ensure that your opportunity attacks and charges are good.

For feats, I would go with toughness and bastard sword proficiency, or toughness and weapon expertise: heavy blade, or bastard sword proficiency and weapon expertise. Definately some combination of those three feats.

One issue with playing a charisma-based paladin is that having a high wisdom, in addition to a high charisma, doesn't do much for your will defense, which causes your other defenses to suffer. I'd try to focus on constitution and charisma.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 04:29 PM
I'd focus on either strength or charisma, but not both. I'd personally go with charisma, since the powers tend to be better, and it will make you a better defender by making your mark do more damage. You can then pick up the melee training feat to ensure that your opportunity attacks and charges are good.

For feats, I would go with toughness and bastard sword proficiency, or toughness and weapon expertise: heavy blade, or bastard sword proficiency and weapon expertise. Definately some combination of those three feats.

One issue with playing a charisma-based paladin is that having a high wisdom, in addition to a high charisma, doesn't do much for your will defense, which causes your other defenses to suffer. I'd try to focus on constitution and charisma.

I thank you for the advice but what good does constitution do? no powers are based off that. the only benefit I'd get from that would be a few more HP and a slightly higher fortitude defense. there's also not a single feat I can take at any level from the PHB that would benefit my character with constituton.

what's wrong exactly with focusing on strength AND charisma:smallconfused:

and I can't find melee training. what book is that from?

its_all_ogre
2009-07-07, 04:38 PM
constitution adds hit points, healing surges and increases your surge value as a dragonborn.
get it high.
charisma and strength leave you fairly starved for stats, personally i prefer cha powers.
i'd actually be tempted by a 16 in each after modifiers as then you can get better stats across the board for healing hands and surges. with a heavy shield your defences should be good across the board.

when the party defender is out of surges the party are screwed, your surge total is very important and con can never be too high

Kylarra
2009-07-07, 04:39 PM
Melee training is PHB2. It allows you to add the stat of your choice to your melee basic attack rolls rather than strength.

KIDS
2009-07-07, 04:44 PM
Dragonborn are one of the few races that can make very good balanced paladins, taking equally STR and CHA powers. Your build seems quite fine, and personally I'd go for the Fullblade just for style, I'm sure you'll have enough AC overall.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 04:53 PM
okay then how's this.
str 10 (dump stat since I can just use charisma)
cha 17 (obviously
con 15
dex 15 (the majority of feats I want require a high dex)
wis 10 (or should it be 12?)
int 12 (or should it be 10?)

the only problem I can see is that I can't use plate armor specialization.

Tengu_temp
2009-07-07, 05:34 PM
the only problem I can see is that I can't use plate armor specialization.

Yes you can. It requires 15 con, but not str.

Mando Knight
2009-07-07, 05:42 PM
Yes you can. It requires 15 con, but not str.

It requires both 15 Strength and 15 Constitution.

Heavy Blade Opportunity also requires 15 Strength, but you're not going for Champion of Order (Opportunity attack when Divine Challenged enemy attacks someone else) so it doesn't matter.

erikun
2009-07-07, 06:31 PM
It requires just Con 15, unless it was errata'd from the PHB. Besides, Shield Specialization is superior in every way, and requires Dex 15.

Why do you not have Cha 18? For a dragonborn, getting it that high should be relatively easy - all your attacks and damage are based around Cha.

You'll want higher Wis than Int, unless you are focusing on Int for some reason.

Why do you need Dex 15/Con 15? What are you looking at picking up that needs those stats so high?

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 07:06 PM
It requires just Con 15, unless it was errata'd from the PHB. Besides, Shield Specialization is superior in every way, and requires Dex 15.

Why do you not have Cha 18? For a dragonborn, getting it that high should be relatively easy - all your attacks and damage are based around Cha.

You'll want higher Wis than Int, unless you are focusing on Int for some reason.

Why do you need Dex 15/Con 15? What are you looking at picking up that needs those stats so high?

let's see for dex there's quick draw, far shot, defensive advantage, evasion, sieze the moment, armor specialization scale and shield specialization. there are a few more but they require a high strength as well. if I were to have high strentgh there's heavy blade oppurtunity, scimitar dance, sweeping flail and heavy blade mastery

con helps a dragonborn paladin in a few things I wasn't aware of. in my case it means higher healing surge value, higher fortitude and higher HP all of which a good defender can make use of. as well as armor specialization plate if need be

yeah I could make charisma 18. I'll consider it but I don't think it's going to happen. takes a bit too much away from other stats

Tengu_temp
2009-07-07, 07:24 PM
It requires both 15 Strength and 15 Constitution.


That's plate armor proficiency. Specialization requires only constitution.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 07:27 PM
That's plate armor proficiency. Specialization requires only constitution.

yes but paladins aren't proficient with plate armor. only up to scale which is actually a better specialization anyway

NEO|Phyte
2009-07-07, 07:28 PM
yes but paladins aren't proficient with plate armor. only up to scale which is actually a better specialization anyway

You're thinking of fighters, paladins get plate.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 07:34 PM
You're thinking of fighters, paladins get plate.

my bad. dangit. message too short.

Mando Knight
2009-07-07, 07:53 PM
con helps a dragonborn paladin in a few things I wasn't aware of. in my case it means higher healing surge value, higher fortitude and higher HP all of which a good defender can make use of. as well as armor specialization plate if need be

It also increases the number of surges gained and the power of the Dragonborn's death-breath. All in all, a pretty good stat.

However, you might want some of those weapon feats in Paragon and Epic (before Divine Power is released, anyway), since Paladins have very few Implement powers that they can rely on... particularly because they lack an at-will implement power.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 08:31 PM
However, you might want some of those weapon feats in Paragon and Epic (before Divine Power is released, anyway), since Paladins have very few Implement powers that they can rely on... particularly because they lack an at-will implement power.

well to do that I'd need a high strength. I could make 4 stats 14s instead of 3 15s but I don't think that'd work too well.


right now it seems to be 17 cha, 15 con, 15 dex

erikun
2009-07-07, 08:51 PM
let's see for dex there's quick draw, far shot, defensive advantage, evasion, sieze the moment, armor specialization scale and shield specialization. there are a few more but they require a high strength as well. if I were to have high strentgh there's heavy blade oppurtunity, scimitar dance, sweeping flail and heavy blade mastery
Yeah, I know the feeling. Especially when creating a new character, there is a tendency to want to grab everything available - even when it isn't very useful.

You won't really need Defensive Advantage: as a front-line defender, you'll be surrounded more often than doing the surrounding. Uncanny Dodge will serve you far better. Seize the Moment is better suited for a rogue - it's effect is limited to one round in a fight, and the +2 for a single attack isn't going to matter as much with an at-will or encounter. (You will likely flank or take advantage on another party member's "grant combat advantage" before hitting with a daily.)

Scale Specialization and Shield Specialization don't stack, if you're considering getting both. For the other feats, you probably shouldn't be overly focused on dealing large amounts of damage - and you wouldn't be able to use all four feats anyways, unless you're carrying around 3+ weapons with you. (Including a shield!)

[Edit] You can get away with Dex 14, Con 14 at the start; remember that you get a +1 to all stats at level 10.

Mando Knight
2009-07-07, 08:53 PM
right now it seems to be 17 cha, 15 con, 15 dex

Drop those 15s down to 14s, and dump Intelligence. With the bonuses from hitting Paragon Tier, you'll qualify for any 15 Dex/Con feats, and you'll have more points to put in other spots, like in Wisdom (for more Lay On Hands and secondary power effects) or Strength (to nab a few Strength-based feats). I don't think there's anything that requires 17 Dexterity that's useful for a Paladin.

Far Shot is worthless for a Paladin, since they don't get proficiency in Military Ranged Weapons, and thus can't use longbows. Instead, get Far Throw, which requires 13 Strength.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 09:46 PM
Yeah, I know the feeling. Especially when creating a new character, there is a tendency to want to grab everything available - even when it isn't very useful.

You won't really need Defensive Advantage: as a front-line defender, you'll be surrounded more often than doing the surrounding. Uncanny Dodge will serve you far better. Seize the Moment is better suited for a rogue - it's effect is limited to one round in a fight, and the +2 for a single attack isn't going to matter as much with an at-will or encounter. (You will likely flank or take advantage on another party member's "grant combat advantage" before hitting with a daily.)

Scale Specialization and Shield Specialization don't stack, if you're considering getting both. For the other feats, you probably shouldn't be overly focused on dealing large amounts of damage - and you wouldn't be able to use all four feats anyways, unless you're carrying around 3+ weapons with you. (Including a shield!)

[Edit] You can get away with Dex 14, Con 14 at the start; remember that you get a +1 to all stats at level 10.

those were just examples of things I'd want. not things I'd actually get. also I don't get how scale specialization and shield specialization don't stack. yet another thing to add to the rules that don't make sense.

oh and currently I am carrying around 3+ weapons. a bastard sword, a longbow, a wooden club (in case of rust monsters) and a shield and I plan on doing that with my next character too.

okay then I'm thinking about this. cha 16 str 8 con 14 dex 14 wis 14 int 12 also are there any stat boosting items in 4th? such as +2 to charisma?

the 12 in INT is so that I can act in character. I don't want my character to be an idiot.

Ninetail
2009-07-07, 10:05 PM
Don't forget that you gain stat bonuses as you level.

Even if you want, say, Dex 15 by paragon level, that doesn't mean you have to start there. If you start with a 14, you'll have a 15 by paragon. If you start lower, you can still use your "+1 to two stats" boosts to raise it if you need to.

Unless you have a need for those high stats right now, you'll be better served starting with an 18 Charisma. That's an extra +1 to your attacks, right out the gate.

erikun
2009-07-07, 10:07 PM
Most people have 10 Int, and they don't walk around acting like idiots.

Feat bonuses don't stack. If it says "+1 Feat Bonus", then it doesn't stack with anything else providing a Feat Bonus as well. Improved Initiative/Quick Draw, Scale Specialization/Sheild Specialization, and Astral Fire/Weapon Focus don't stack.

Something like Blade Opportunist/Combat Reflexes does stack, because one of them is just a "+1 Bonus".

There are no stat-boosting items in 4e; this is why you want a good starting ability and to improve it each level, especially with an attack stat.

16 is the minimum you reasonably want your Cha to be, especially when swinging around something like a club. Cha 18 is desired (well, Cha 20 is really desired) but you can still get by with some difficulties using only Cha 16. Make Weapon Expertise (PHBII) a priority.

Colmarr
2009-07-07, 10:09 PM
those were just examples of things I'd want. not things I'd actually get. also I don't get how scale specialization and shield specialization don't stack. yet another thing to add to the rules that don't make sense.

IIRC, they both add a feat bonus to AC. Bonuses of the same type (whether power, feat, item or some other type) don't stack with each other.


oh and currently I am carrying around 3+ weapons. a bastard sword, a longbow, a wooden club (in case of rust monsters) and a shield and I plan on doing that with my next character too.

There's nothing wrong with that, but the simple fact is that any dex-based attack you make will become increasingly irrelevant as you gain levels, because you won't be buffing Dex with your attribute bonuses. And if you ARE buffing Dex, then you're primary or secondary attributes (Cha and Wis) will suffer instead.

The only truly viable option for a mid-to-high level charisma paladin* when it comes to ranged attacks are implement powers. If the game will stay at low-to-mid levels, then having a dex-based attack one or even two points below your cha-based attack is viable (if not optimised).

*Strength paladins can take advantage of heavy thrown weapons.


there any stat boosting items in 4th? such as +2 to charisma?

No


the 12 in INT is so that I can act in character. I don't want my character to be an idiot.

12 is above average. 10 is not an idiot, and will free up 2 points to go into abilities that will make you better at doing your job.

ninja_penguin
2009-07-07, 10:15 PM
oh and currently I am carrying around 3+ weapons. a bastard sword, a longbow, a wooden club (in case of rust monsters) and a shield and I plan on doing that with my next character too.

As a note: Take a look at heavy thrown weapons instead of a longbow. unless your STR is significantly low.

And there are no rust monsters in 4e. And if your DM is using them, and breaking your equipment, they're being a bit of a jerk.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 10:16 PM
I'd go with a 20 in cha if I could but I think you all know the problem with that.

okay then how about this?

17 cha. 14 dex, 14 con,

now how should I spread the last 3 out?

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 10:20 PM
As a note: Take a look at heavy thrown weapons instead of a longbow. unless your STR is significantly low.

And there are no rust monsters in 4e. And if your DM is using them, and breaking your equipment, they're being a bit of a jerk.

actually there are rust monters in 4th. look in the monster manual 2. and I resent that. I'M going to be using them. of course that's really more part of the story not me getting revenge or being mean to my player.

eh I've never really liked the idea of thrown weapons. and heavy thrown weapons cost 5gp per throw whereas arrows are 1gp for 30. hardly a good idea if you're saving your money.

Mando Knight
2009-07-07, 10:23 PM
a longbow

Bad idea. You're neither proficient nor competent with one. Look at the Paladin's weapon proficiencies again: Simple and Military Melee, Simple Ranged. Longbows are Military Ranged.

You're lagging way too far behind attack-wise to consider a Longbow, or to spend feats on one. You've got mediocre Dexterity, no powers that support the weapon, a +2 proficiency weapon, and enemies whose AC scale to match your Bastard Sword and a Ranger's bow. Not. Worth. It.

...Also, Rust Monsters can now target any heavy armor or magic weapon for rusting. And they're only levels 6-11, so you don't really have to worry about them for a bit, and then they're gone halfway through Paragon.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 10:26 PM
Bad idea. You're neither proficient nor competent with one. Look at the Paladin's weapon proficiencies again: Simple and Military Melee, Simple Ranged. Longbows are Military Ranged.

You're lagging way too far behind attack-wise to consider a Longbow, or to spend feats on one. You've got mediocre Dexterity, no powers that support the weapon, a +2 proficiency weapon, and enemies whose AC scale to match your Bastard Sword and a Ranger's bow. Not. Worth. It.

...Also, Rust Monsters can now target any heavy armor or magic weapon for rusting. And they're only levels 6-11, so you don't really have to worry about them for a bit, and then they're gone halfway through Paragon.

okay. then I'll just avoid ranged. I just hate the thought of thrown weapons other than shuriken and shuriken don't deal enough to be worth it.

Mando Knight
2009-07-07, 10:28 PM
okay. then I'll just avoid ranged. I just hate the thought of thrown weapons other than shuriken and shuriken don't deal enough to be worth it.

Javelins, Hand Axes, and Throwing Hammers are all useful once they get enchanted. Every enchanted throwing weapon returns to its wielder after thrown.

Colmarr
2009-07-07, 10:33 PM
If you want to have Str and Cha powers as viable options, I'd go with:

Str 16(18), Con 12, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 16(18).

It leaves a gaping hole in your Reflex defence, but a heavy shield will go some way to helping out with that.

If you only want Cha powers, I'd go with:

Str 11(13), Con 12, Dex 8, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16(18).

Str 13 mainly because Plate and Heavy Shield weighs a LOT. If you're playing a game where encumbrance doesn't matter, feel free to move the 8 or 10 here.

Dex 8 because nothing about paladin demands Dex.

Int 14 because one of the pair needs to boost your Ref defence, and having it in Intelligence will at least boost your religion skill.

Wis 14 for all the secondary effects of powers and Lay on Hands.

Cha 18 is a nice start. 20 isn't IMO worth the points it take to get it.

Incidentally, that order (Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, Cha) is the default for 4e because it groups the defence pairs together. Using the order when discussing builds helps others respond to your query.

erikun
2009-07-07, 10:34 PM
Magical Thrown Weapons return after use, and never break. Still, not much use unless you're focusing on Strength.

I'm not trying to push you into something you don't want, but I'd hate to offer advice for a character that becomes unplayable. You don't mess up many characters in 4e, especially with all the retraining, but you really don't have a boost otherwise-low ability scores.

STR 10, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 11, WIS 12, CHA 18 is a standard 22-point buy for a Dragonborn. You'll only have one Lay on Hands, and some rather weak riders, but can make up for it with a decent breath weapon. If you're increasing WIS/CHA each level, than the starting low WIS is less of a concern.

Isn't there a greatclub somewhere? If you're fighting a rust monster, I'd assume you'd remove the shield - making fighting two-handed more reasonable. Just an idea.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 10:35 PM
thanks colmarr but that still doesn't address the problem of the feats I can most benefit from needing a dex of 13 at the least. honestly that's the main reason I'm changing my current build. it works well for what it currently does but I'm going to need the use of a few of those feats later on.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 10:37 PM
STR 10, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 11, WIS 12, CHA 18 is a standard 22-point buy for a Dragonborn. You'll only have one Lay on Hands, and some rather weak riders, but can make up for it with a decent breath weapon. If you're increasing WIS/CHA each level, than the starting low WIS is less of a concern.


this is a bit more what I had in mind. I think this build could work very well.

Alteran
2009-07-07, 10:37 PM
those were just examples of things I'd want. not things I'd actually get. also I don't get how scale specialization and shield specialization don't stack. yet another thing to add to the rules that don't make sense.


They both give you feat bonuses. Bonuses of the same type (power, feat, item, racial) do not stack. Untyped bonuses (bonuses without specific types) are the exception, as they always stack.



oh and currently I am carrying around 3+ weapons. a bastard sword, a longbow, a wooden club (in case of rust monsters) and a shield and I plan on doing that with my next character too.


The longbow isn't going to be useful, as you're not proficient in it. If you really want a ranged weapon, get a heavy thrown weapon like a javelin, hand-axe, or throwing hammer. You could get a light thrown weapon (like a dagger) or a simple ranged weapon (like a crossbow), but they'll use dexterity instead of strength.

Wait, you don't have good strength. I'm not sure if Melee Training: Charisma would also work for heavy thrown weapons. It seems like it shouldn't by RAW, but it sounds fair to me. You'd need to ask your DM about that.



okay then I'm thinking about this. cha 16 str 8 con 14 dex 14 wis 14 int 12 also are there any stat boosting items in 4th? such as +2 to charisma?


Unfortunately not, but you do get more bonuses as you level up. I suggest:

8 strength, 14 constitution, 13 dexterity, 10 intelligence, 14 wisdom, 16 charisma. Your racial bonuses put strength to 10 and your charisma up to 18. The +1 boost to all stats at level 11 lets you get feats that require 15 constitution. I'm not sure what feats you would want that need 15 dexterity, I probably wouldn't bother with that.



the 12 in INT is so that I can act in character. I don't want my character to be an idiot.

10 is hardly stupid. Honestly, neither is 8. People seem to exaggerate how bad an 8 really would be. It's not somebody who's illiterate and only communicates in grunts. 8 is somebody who has difficulty with their schoolwork, and would likely be more averse to higher education. In the real world, people with 8 intelligence would not be uncommon, and they would easily fit into society. If you want your paladin to have above-average intelligence, then taking 12 is fair enough. If you just don't want them to be an idiot, then don't worry about taking an 8 or 10.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 10:40 PM
Unfortunately not, but you do get more bonuses as you level up. I suggest:

8 strength, 14 constitution, 13 dexterity, 10 intelligence, 14 wisdom, 16 charisma. Your racial bonuses put strength to 10 and your charisma up to 18. The +1 boost to all stats at level 11 lets you get feats that require 15 constitution. I'm not sure what feats you would want that need 15 dexterity, I probably wouldn't bother with that.


.

your build would work well too. although I'd probably have to ditch my heavy shield. eh didn't have a whole lot of use for it anyway. time for a fullblade! or an urgrosh. both good.

Colmarr
2009-07-07, 10:41 PM
thanks colmarr but that still doesn't address the problem of the feats I can most benefit from needing a dex of 13 at the least. honestly that's the main reason I'm changing my current build. it works well for what it currently does but I'm going to need the use of a few of those feats later on.

If you're absolutely set on pursuing those feats, then swap Dex and Int in my build to get:

Str 11(13), Con 12, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 16(18).

You're Religion skill will suffer but you'll have the same Reflex defence and access to all those Dex 15 paragon feats you want.

If you simply cannot accept playing below-average intelligence, then how about:

Str 10(12), Con 11, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16(18).


your build would work well too.

Be careful with any build with 8 Strength. Str 8 gives you a lifting capacity of 80 lbs. Plate armour alone weighs 50 lbs.

Perhaps we're all jumping to specifics here without addressing the underlying generalties.

Starting ability scores are the only thing in 4e that can't be changed after character creation. In turn, the only thing that is directly based off them are feat pre-requisites.

My usually approach to creating a "build" then is to go through the available list of books and jot down my wish list of feats, together with their pre-requisites. I then trim that list down to the required amount. Once I've planned out my feats, I then work backwards to figure out what my starting ability score needs to be at character creation to take that feat.

Eg. I want my cleric of Tempus to be able to able to take Heavy Blade Mastery (Str 21, Dex 17) at epic tier. To get there without spending any level buffs, my cleric needs to start with Str 19 and Dex 15.

However, I know that I'll be boosting Str every chance I can get, so with 6 boost opportunities (4th, 8th, 11th, 14, 18th, 21st), his Strength can start as low as 15 if I want.

Dex is more of a problem. To reach 17 by epic tier without spending a level boost requires a starting Dex of 15, and I'm not willing to spend that many creation points on an ability that is (apart from this one feat) generally worthless to my character. So I decide to allocate two level-up boosts to Dex, allowing me to start with Dex 13 and spend those points elsewhere.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-07, 10:54 PM
If you're absolutely set on pursuing those feats, then swap Dex and Int in my build to get:

Str 11(13), Con 12, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 16(18).

You're Religion skill will suffer but you'll have the same Reflex defence and access to all those Dex 15 paragon feats you want.


I haven't had any real use for my religion skill yet so it suffering is irrelevant.it may come up later in the campaign but I don't think it will.

I kind of like this build. (sorry about the rant about INT. my friend told me 7-8 was Thog intelligence and do not want that) good enough strength, can upgrade my constitution 2 points before paragon and still have a good charisma and then start upgrading wisdom. plus I have enough strength to carry a fullblade, scale or plate armor, an urgrosh and a polearm.

Alteran
2009-07-07, 11:07 PM
I kind of like this build. (sorry about the rant about INT. my friend told me 7-8 was Thog intelligence and do not want that)

I would say Thog is probably more like 6. Keep in mind that Barbarians (in 3.5) were always illiterate unless you spent skill points to teach them how to read. One could argue that for that reason, Barbarians were also tended to be (or act) less intelligent.

It didn't really make sense to me how a Ranger with 8 int would be literate, but a Barbarian with 8 (or higher!) int wouldn't be.