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Gralamin
2005-12-10, 06:26 PM
In my Campaign there are 5 leading gulids, joining one gives you access to a PrC. the ones I show here are the first two.
I'm not sure if their balanced are not, i need your advice.

the first one, requiring you to be part of the Lightning Hand, a powerful bunch of mages speicalizing in Electricity Damage. they also train to be more difficlut to hit.

Scion of the Maelstrom
Organization: Lightning Hand
These mages have joined the Lightning hand and are being trained in its secrets. Because they regularly use Spells dealing with electricity, they are also taught how to dodge, quite like a rogue
HD d4

Requirements
Skills Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks
Feats Energy Substitution (electricity)
Saves Ref +3
Spells Must know at least 3 spells with the electricity descriptor; one of these must be Lightning bolt.
Special Must be part of the Lightning Hand

Class Skills
Concentration, Craft, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(the Planes), Profession, and Spellcraft. 2+int/level


Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spell casting
1 +0 +0 +2 +2 Electric Specialty, Electric resistance 5 +1 level of existing spellcasting class
2 +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, Immunity to sleep -
3 +1 +1 +3 +3 Electric Penetration +2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class
4 +2 +1 +4 +4 Electric Resistance 10 +1 level of existing spellcasting class
5 +2 +1 +4 +4 Uncanny Dodge +1 level of existing spellcasting class
6 +3 +2 +5 +5 Improved Evasion +1 level of existing spellcasting class
7 +3 +2 +5 +5 Electric Resistance 20 +1 level of existing spellcasting class
8 +4 +2 +6 +6 Electric Penetration +4 +1 level of existing spellcasting class
9 +4 +3 +6 +6 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Immunity to Paralysis and Poison -
10 +5 +3 +7 +7 Electric Immunity, Electric Perfection +1 level of existing spellcasting class

Ability Descriptions
Electric Specialty – When you Cast any spell with an Energy Descriptor, you may choose to change it into Electricity Damage.
Electric Resistance – You gain Resistance to Electricity 5. At level 4 this doubles to 10, and at level 7, it doubles once more to 20.
Evasion – From Practicing dodge lightning spells you gain the Evasion ability like a Rogue.
Immunity to Sleep – You gain immunity to sleep effects.
Electric Penetration – When attempting to beat spell Resistance you gain a +2 bonus to these checks while using a spell with the electric descriptor. This doubles at level 8 to +4.
Uncanny Dodge – Your practice has allowed you to gain the uncanny dodge ability.
Improved Evasion – your practice has allowed you to gain the rogues Improved Evasion Ability.
Improved Uncanny Dodge – Your practice now has allowed you to use the Rogues Improved Uncanny Dodge Ability.
Immunity to Paralysis and Poison – you gain immunity to paralyzing and poison effects.
Electric Immunity – You gain immunity to Electricity.
Electric Perfection – Your type changes to Elemental. You gain all the benefits of becoming this type. Your Appearance doesn’t change, except for some electricity that flashes across your body.

Gralamin
2005-12-10, 06:28 PM
the 2nd PrC is from the Red Theives Gang. He is trained by making traps and having traps sprung on him. They also steal quite often.

Red Thief
Organization: Red Thieves Gang
These Rogues are learning how to adequately work for the Red Thieves Gang
HD d6

Requirements
Skills Sleight of Hand (8 Ranks), Craft (trapmaking) (8 ranks), Open lock (8 Ranks)
Saves Ref +4
Special Must be part of the Red Thieves gang

Class Skills
As a Rogue. 8+int/level


Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +2 +2 +0 Swift Stealing, Trap Resistance 10
2 +1 +3 +3 +0 Improved Uncanny Dodge
3 +2 +3 +3 +1 Trap Sense +1
4 +3 +4 +4 +1 Trap Building, Lock Bomb (+2)
5 +3 +4 +4 +1 Trap Resistance 15, Damage Reduction 1/-
6 +4 +5 +5 +2 Improved Evasion
7 +5 +5 +5 +2 Trap Sense +2
8 +6 +6 +6 +2 Improved trap building, Lock Bomb (+4)
9 +6 +6 +6 +3 Trap Resistance 20
10 +7 +7 +7 +3 Trap Sense +4, Damage Reduction 2/-, Improved Swift Stealing

Ability Descriptions

Swift Stealing – you have become so good at stealing that Sleight of hand becomes a swift action.
Trap Resistance – if a trap is sprung on you, the DM must roll d20 and add the CR to the result. If it beats your trap resistance, you are affected normally and can still attempt a saving throw. If it fails, it will miss you completely.
Improved Uncanny Dodge – Your practice now has allowed you to use the Rogues Improved Uncanny Dodge Ability.
Trap Sense – You gain additional abilities for detecting traps. This number stacks with a rogue’s normal Trap Sense.
Trap Building – You are especially skilled at crafting traps, with this ability, it takes 25% less gold to make a trap.
Lock Bomb – You have found away to put a small bomb in a lock, giving you a +2 bonus to opening locks. This grows to +4 at level 8.
Damage Reduction – From all the traps and training you’ve been through you become harder to hurt. You gain DR 1/- at level 5, and DR 2/- at level 10.
Improved Evasion – your practice has allowed you to gain the rogues Improved Evasion Ability.
Improved Trap Building – As Trap Building Except it takes 25% less time to make a trap.
Improved Swift Stealing – you have learned to hide your stealing, no matter how fast you steal. You gain a +4 on checks to prevent people from detecting your Sleight of Hand.

ILM
2005-12-10, 07:36 PM
PrC 1 is borderline overpowered, 2 good saves, high-level Rogue abilities, 8/10 casting (that's the part that really bites), elemental subtype (immune to lots of stuff), and the equivalent of two bonus feats in spell penetration.

PrC 2 is underpowered. Seriously, you think making SoH a swift action is a bonus ? The basic skill rules allow you to make it a free action (with a penalty, but it's easy to push skills through the roof), which technically allows you to strip an enemy of everything he's wearing in a single round. Your ability actually limits that. I admit I find the concept of Trap Resistance kind of fun, though. Still definitely not a PrC I'd take.

ccelizic
2005-12-10, 08:08 PM
Outside of combat, you use sleight of hand to steal stuff, you just casually bump up agianst someone and stick your hand somewhere where it shouldn't be. This is outside of combat because in such situations it's easy to get up close to somebody in a crowd, nobody is waving weapons around. being as such it doesn't factor too heavily into actions.

Now, once you get into combat, the rules change, there's a big nasty guy waving a sword in your face, if you try to "bump" into him, he's going to stick it somewhere painful! If you want to strip someone during combat you need to make an unarmed disarm attempt. Look it up under "disarm". Sleight of hand is for casually lifting something without being noticed, you just can't do that in combat you can't get that close to someone you're 5 feet away on average. Now, the best way to strip someone of their gear is to get the feat's "improved unarmed attack" so you can make those unarmed disarm atttacks without an AOO and "improved disarm" to avoid aoo's on a disarm attack in general. Then you get in the opponent's face and try to disarm anything that isn't secured down too well, if you disarm with a weapon, the item in question falls to the ground, if you disarm an object bare handed, it ends in you your possession.

Disarm is often used on weapons, but it can be used on anything that isn't too tighly secured on the victim, coin pouches, spell component pouches, wands, unused weapons etc are ALL game. A nifty trick is to get a bard in close with his ability with a fighter, steal a weapon, and then use "master's touch" to gain the weapon proficiency feat for the stolen weapon.

If the object is secured well to the victim's person, then you'll have to first grapple the victim, then pin the victim then make a disarm check to rip it off. This is how you do steal someone's pants per say. So, if you really have to humiliate that BBEG beyond words, now you know how to steal his pants before strangling him with them.

Rigeld
2005-12-10, 09:48 PM
PrC 1 is borderline overpowered, 2 good saves, high-level Rogue abilities, 8/10 casting (that's the part that really bites), elemental subtype (immune to lots of stuff), and the equivalent of two bonus feats in spell penetration.
Not only that, its the perfect dip. +1 spellcasting level, plus Energy Substitution (Electricity), plus more. Move the SCL to 2 or 9.

edit: Just looked again. What does the level 1 ability do? Its worded exactly like EnSub Electricity, which you require to get into the class.....

Darkie
2005-12-10, 11:49 PM
+1 SCl should never, never, NEVER be in the first level of a PrC, unless it's full CL progression, or you gain nothing, or nothing useful, from the 1st level.

Otherwise, as pointed out, it is always better to just take one level.

The Glyphstone
2005-12-11, 07:49 AM
I belive it's just the Energy Sub (electric) metamagic feat applied to all your spells for free.

Spuddly
2005-12-11, 08:15 AM
Well, you have to be part of some guild to get in the PrC. Not like you can *just* dip. Could be some repercussions if you don't stick with the class.

ILM
2005-12-11, 10:54 AM
He asked us about balance. RP considerations have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on balance.

As for the SoH thing, I suspect there's a good amount of poor wording from the developers. Disarm is fine if you want to grab something off your target, but what if you don't want him to notice ? Back to SoH. Besides, when are you "in combat" ? Whenever init has been rolled ? How about if the target isn't aware of you, such as when you're invisible ?

Spuddly
2005-12-11, 10:59 AM
He asked us about balance. RP considerations have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on balance.

That's not entirely true. What of alignment requirements? And he never specified the entire guild requirements. May include a hefty fee, oath of secrecy, being sent on missions you wouldn't willing do.

But I agree, it seems kinda overpowered.

Thomas
2005-12-11, 11:49 AM
I belive it's just the Energy Sub (electric) metamagic feat applied to all your spells for free.

Of course, Energy Substitution doesn't raise the spell slot used to prepare a spell, so it's already "free" for wizards after taking the feat - they just have to specify they prepare the spell for the element. For sorcerers, a "free" version of it would give some benefit (casting time), but it's not a very big benefit.

Thrune
2005-12-11, 01:55 PM
I'd call the first one highly overpowered for sure, the second one moderately overpowered.
(Trap resistance seems very strong)

Azrael
2005-12-11, 06:29 PM
I also feel that Scion is horribly overpowered. For a better build on the class, look closely at Elemental Savant.

It also drops two levels of spell casting. Not only have you used almost ALL of its special abilities, but you've added in an entire batch of rogue abilities. If you want those roque abilities, there has to be a trade off somewhere. And the SHOULD be some kind of pre-req that is in line with them as well.

dedicated
2005-12-11, 06:42 PM
Of course, Energy Substitution doesn't raise the spell slot used to prepare a spell, so it's already "free" for wizards after taking the feat - they just have to specify they prepare the spell for the element. For sorcerers, a "free" version of it would give some benefit (casting time), but it's not a very big benefit.
Except, the wizard doesn't have to prepare it with eectricity damge, he can apply it to the spell when he casts it.

Gralamin
2005-12-11, 11:42 PM
thanks for the tips guys, I'll Repost once the changes are done :)
and for reference, 1st was based off of Elemental Savant and their is repruccusions for leaving the class.
This guild is full of high level mages (15-20), each who has sworn an oath to destroy ANY traitors, no judge, no jury, just executioner.

Thought just occured, would it help if I made the reqs require you to be at least level 10? so this class would have to be taken from level 10 -> level 19?

For the second class, they exsist more as trap makers, destroyers, and theives in cities. Indeed they even work as a 2nd government in the capital city. The only reason why I believe they don't just take over is my first prestige class. would it help if i added sneak attack?

Darkie
2005-12-12, 12:12 AM
Requirements are not important.

Must the same with spell research - "If every mage wants this spell for this level, it's the wrong level."

No CL for the first level, dammit. Otherwise every single caster that qualifies will have it.