Mechanics nerd Question for V vs Xykon battle

[Thanatosia]

In the battle between V and Xykon, Xykon seemed to freely be using spells enhanced with various Meta-magic feats. But I always avoided Meta-magic feats on my Spontaneous casting characters (and I understand Xykon is a sorc not a wizard) in 3rd ed D&D because they made spells practicaly unusable in direct combat by adding a full round to their cast times. Is there some obscure feat or method Xykon uses to get around this?

[SadisticFishing]

There are quite a few he could be using. In the PHB2, you can give up your familiar for the ability to spontaneously use Metamagic a few times per day.

That's the most likely, in my opinion.

[Random832]

they made spells practicaly unusable in direct combat by adding a full round to their cast times.

A spell which is a standard action or less takes one full round, not a full round plus the normal casting time.

[Optimystik]

There are a couple of possibilities:

1) He has no special feats, and so everytime we see him casting a metamagicked spell it's taking the full round, which would make little difference to the narrative (it's not like he's ever casting them on the run.)

2) He has Rapid Metamagic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=2) (which, incidentally, would allow him access to Quicken Spell - as if he needed more buffs.)

[NerfTW]

Well, we know from the splice's statement before V left and the Fiend's final total that the battle + the issue O'Chul took 54 seconds, or nine rounds. (six seconds a round, right?)

So I guess someone could bother to stat out that battle and figure out the length of time the first half took and figure it out from there.

[Kish]

In the battle between V and Xykon, Xykon seemed to freely be using spells enhanced with various Meta-magic feats. But I always avoided Meta-magic feats on my Spontaneous casting characters (and I understand Xykon is a sorc not a wizard) in 3rd ed D&D because they made spells practicaly unusable in direct combat by adding a full round to their cast times.
As Random832 said, they don't add a full round to their cast times--they make casting them a full-round action rather than a standard action. Ymmv, but I always considered that a trivial penalty for being able to apply any metamagic feat to any spell whenever I decided an Empowered Magic Missile would be better than a standard Fireball without needing to prepare either in advance, and so I find metamagic feats a lot more appealing as a sorcerer than as a wizard.

[Olorin Maia]

I'm sorry if I should know this, but what are meta-magic enhancements?

[Random832]

Though (as long as we're on the subject) it still doesn't make sense for metamagic rods to not make it a full-round action for all classes. It doesn't even say "spontaneous casters", so it doesn't apply to bards - it's a specific penalty for being a sorcerer.


I'm sorry if I should know this, but what are meta-magic enhancements?

Quickened, Empowered, Maximized, Still, and a lot of other stuff but those are the ones we've seen in the comic. They make your spells better, or make it easier to cast them, in exchange for taking a higher-level spell slot. As a wizard you have to prepare them in advance with the enhancement, as a sorcerer or bard it makes casting take longer (and therefore no access to Quickened)

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm sorry if I should know this, but what are meta-magic enhancements?Feats (character options) in Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition (and 3.5) that allow Wizards, Sorcerers, and anyone else who casts spells to modify their spells with certain effects, in exchange for increasing the 'level' of the spell (casters can cast fewer high level spells per day than low level spells). "Empower Spell" gives you 1.5x damage, "Enlarge Spell" doubles the radius of a spell's effective area, etc.

Wizards, Clerics, and other classes that "prepare" spells daily modify spells with Metamagic whenever they prepare them - the Metamagic and the spell are preloaded and ready to go.

Sorcerers, Bards, and other classes that can cast any spell on the fly instead of having to prepare them can choose to apply Metamagic whenever they cast, but it increases the casting time from a typical standard action (half a round) to a full-round action, which is a fairly stiff penalty in the eyes of some players, since it means you don't have time to move, draw a magic wand, or whatever.

[Kish]

I'm sorry if I should know this, but what are meta-magic enhancements?
This will probably confuse you further.
They're feats. Once you have the feat, if you're a prepared caster like a wizard, you can prepare spells modified by the feat, and if you're a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer, you can apply the feat to any of your spells for the cost of casting the spell as a full-round action instead of a standard action.
Example 1: Empower Spell. The spell does 150% of the damage (/healing) it would normally do, however it counts as a spell two levels higher. A normal Fireball cast by a tenth-level wizard takes a third-level slot and does 10d6 damage, an Empowered Fireball takes a fifth-level one and does 10d6 times 1.5.
Example 2: Maximize Spell. All dice that would normally be rolled for the damage (/healing, again) effect of a spell are instead simply treated as if they had come up the maximum number, however it counts as a spell three levels higher. A Maximized Fireball takes a sixth-level slot and does 60 damage.

[Timberboar]

Now then, an Empowered Chained Maximized Fireball would... :smallwink:

[Bibliomancer]

Now then, an Empowered Chained Maximized Fireball would... :smallwink:

You can't chain something that is an area of effect spell (it has to have a target). Also, the PHB specifically says that empower and maximize don't stack, to an empowered maximized fireball would do 60 + 5d6 and take an 8th level spell slot.

[Olorin Maia]

Awesome, thanks guys. Surprisingly that cleared up a lot of what was confusing me in the comic too. I figured out what quickened did, but I didn't get the rest.

Why wouldn't every sorcerer give up their familiar for this ability? Even if its limited to a few times per day, it seems to be incredibly overpowered. Or does it still take a higher slot and just not take the full round?

(This stuff intreages me; I would love to play D&D but I don't have anybody around to do so with, and would have to go get the source books and stuff.)

[Optimystik]

Awesome, thanks guys. Surprisingly that cleared up a lot of what was confusing me in the comic too. I figured out what quickened did, but I didn't get the rest.

Why wouldn't every sorcerer give up their familiar for this ability? Even if its limited to a few times per day, it seems to be incredibly overpowered. Or does it still take a higher slot and just not take the full round?

(This stuff intreages me; I would love to play D&D but I don't have anybody around to do so with, and would have to go get the source books and stuff.)

You don't need the sourcebooks to learn the base mechanics. The SRD is open for all to read (the best one is available at http://www.d20srd.org/) and MOST of what Rich uses in the comic comes from that.

I think you misread something somewhere, because a Sorcerer doesn't have to give up their familiar to get metamagic feats. They just choose them as they level up. Or am I the one misunderstanding?

[Bibliomancer]

You don't need the sourcebooks to learn the base mechanics. The SRD is open for all to read (the best one is available at http://www.d20srd.org/) and MOST of what Rich uses in the comic comes from that.

I think you misread something somewhere, because a Sorcerer doesn't have to give up their familiar to get metamagic feats. They just choose them as they level up. Or am I the one misunderstanding?

Olorin Maia is talking about the sorcerer variant found in the PHBII. This, to be clear, allows a sorcerer to give up their familiar in exchange for casting all metamagic enhanced spells without an increase in casting time. They still must use a higher spell slot.

[Optimystik]

Olorin Maia is talking about the sorcerer variant found in the PHBII. This, to be clear, allows a sorcerer to give up their familiar in exchange for casting all metamagic enhanced spells without an increase in casting time. They still must use a higher spell slot.

Ah! That explains it.

Well, as I stated earlier in the thread, you can have your cake and eat it; keep your familiar and pick up Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage. In the long run, the familiar is likely to be more useful (delivering touch spells for you, making spot/listen checks, etc.) than the feat you would free up.

[Olorin Maia]

You don't need the sourcebooks to learn the base mechanics. The SRD is open for all to read (the best one is available at http://www.d20srd.org/) and MOST of what Rich uses in the comic comes from that.

I think you misread something somewhere, because a Sorcerer doesn't have to give up their familiar to get metamagic feats. They just choose them as they level up. Or am I the one misunderstanding?

I am no longer getting much work done today. Thanks for the link.

And thanks for the clarification on the familiar too.

[Zanaril]

This makes me wonder whether Xykon has a familiar (which is likely in the same existential state as V's), and if so what it is. :smallconfused:

[Optimystik]

I am no longer getting much work done today. Thanks for the link.

And thanks for the clarification on the familiar too.

You're very welcome!


This makes me wonder whether Xykon has a familiar (which is likely in the same existential state as V's), and if so what it is. :smallconfused:

I was just about to ask that question. I think he gave his up for some kind of necromantic ability, but I don't know enough about sorcerer variants to know how that would be possible or what the specifics would be. But in SoD, he animates a body almost every time we see him even before his lichdom.

[Timberboar]

You can't chain something that is an area of effect spell (it has to have a target). Also, the PHB specifically says that empower and maximize don't stack, to an empowered maximized fireball would do 60 + 5d6 and take an 8th level spell slot.

Yeah... I... it was a joke about how out of hand stacked metamagic can get. :smallsigh:

[derfenrirwolv]

1) Sorcerers need to spend a full round action (not 1 round) to cast the spells. IE, a move action and an attack action.

2) Xykons casting while grappled was a little outside the rules, unless he had an obscure feat or devoted three feats to epic still spell, which would let him cast 9th level spells while stilled without an increase in casting time. You cannot cast spells longer than one standard action while grappled.

[Bibliomancer]

Ah! That explains it.

Well, as I stated earlier in the thread, you can have your cake and eat it; keep your familiar and pick up Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage. In the long run, the familiar is likely to be more useful (delivering touch spells for you, making spot/listen checks, etc.) than the feat you would free up.

However, I'm fairly certain that Rapid Metamagic only allows you to use it a certain number of times per day, while the variant has no such cap. Thus, there are pros and cons to each scenario.


Yeah... I... it was a joke about how out of hand stacked metamagic can get. :smallsigh:

Sorry for missing your joke. Stacked metamagic often isn't that good (as my answer showed), unless it's a Twinned Split Repeated Ray of Enervation.


1) Sorcerers need to spend a full round action (not 1 round) to cast the spells. IE, a move action and an attack action.

2) Xykons casting while grappled was a little outside the rules, unless he had an obscure feat or devoted three feats to epic still spell, which would let him cast 9th level spells while stilled without an increase in casting time. You cannot cast spells longer than one standard action while grappled.

1) Sorcerers only need to do this when using metamagic effects, and there are some ways to get around this (see above).

2) If he was casting a stilled spell it would have been within the rules, although he might have needed to make a concentration check to do so. What is more questionable is whether or not his attack would have destroyed the Crushing Hand.

Also: he could have cast that spell from a 10th level spell slot using the Improved Spell Capacity feat which is available at 21st level for any primary caster.

[Optimystik]

However, I'm fairly certain that Rapid Metamagic only allows you to use it a certain number of times per day, while the variant has no such cap. Thus, there are pros and cons to each scenario.

I have CM in front of me, and I don't see a restriction like that at all. You must be thinking of some other feat? :smallconfused:


2) Xykons casting while grappled was a little outside the rules, unless he had an obscure feat or devoted three feats to epic still spell, which would let him cast 9th level spells while stilled without an increase in casting time. You cannot cast spells longer than one standard action while grappled.

Interesting, I wasn't aware of the cast time restriction. That seems to indicate that Xykon is one of the variant sorcerers from PHB2, which would explain his lack of a familiar. (Or that he has Rapid Metamagic, which still leaves the question of his familiar's whereabouts open.)

[Bibliomancer]

I have CM in front of me, and I don't see a restriction like that at all. You must be thinking of some other feat? :smallconfused:

My mistake, I was thinking of Arcane Preparation for the Complete Arcane, which allows sorcerers to prepare spells with metamagic applied and then cast them later without an increase in casting time.

...Rapid Metamagic is totally broken. The only mitigating factor is that you can't take it until 9th level, and even that doesn't help much.

[derfenrirwolv]

1) Sorcerers only need to do this when using metamagic effects, and there are some ways to get around this (see above)

The spells= the metamagicked ones, sorry for the lack of clarity.





2) If he was casting a stilled spell it would have been within the rules, although he might have needed to make a concentration check to do so.

Nope.



You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

A core sorcerer is positively hosed by grappling. They can't use still spell to cast because still spell increases the cast time from one standard action to a full round action, making it longer than something that can legally be cast in a grapple.





What is more questionable is whether or not his attack would have destroyed the Crushing Hand.


Why is this even a question?

An interposing hand is 10 feet long and about that wide with its fingers outstretched. It has as many hit points as you do when you’re undamaged, and its AC is 20 (-1 size, +11 natural). It takes damage as a normal creature, but most magical effects that don’t cause damage do not affect it.

[derfenrirwolv]

You're better off taking the PHB II metamagic version, and then picking up familiar as a feat from complete arcane. That way your familiar will level up with you when you go into a prestidge class (which EVERY sorcerer should)

[Forbiddenwar]

A core sorcerer is positively hosed by grappling. They can't use still spell to cast because still spell increases the cast time from one standard action to a full round action, making it longer than something that can legally be cast in a grapple.


So it seems clear. either xykon has the rapid metamagic feat or is the sorceror variant who can cast metamagic without increased spell casting time, in exchange for a familiar. Just like everyone is stating. No increased time to apply metamagic feats.

As for the spell slot cost, either he used a 10 level spell slot or used a metamagic rod. Probably the former.

[BoloYeung]

Hello for everyone - I hope I won't annoy due to my problems with language :)

Quick question - how would Automatic Quicken Spell from Epic Level handbook work for a sorcerer and metamagic? According to SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Automatic_Quicken_Spell), spells with casting time longer than 1 round can't be quickened - but metamagic spells casted by sorcerer take one full round to cast..

I doubt Xyxon has this feat though - it would significantly increase number of spells he casted during fight.

[Zevox]

So it seems clear. either xykon has the rapid metamagic feat or is the sorceror variant who can cast metamagic without increased spell casting time, in exchange for a familiar. Just like everyone is stating. No increased time to apply metamagic feats.
Or, more likely, Rich just forgot that rather obscure aspect of the grappling rules.

Zevox

[derfenrirwolv]

Quick question - how would Automatic Quicken Spell from Epic Level handbook work for a sorcerer and metamagic? According to SRD, spells with casting time longer than 1 round can't be quickened - but metamagic spells casted by sorcerer take one full round to cast..

No, they don't take one full round, they take a full round action.

You effectively get 6 seconds to act in a round.

You may make 1 move and 1 attack. If you don't move any other distance you get a 5 foot step.

Non actions: Breathing, looking at a funny looking plant walking towards and making a knowledge nature check to realize its weaknesses, Take zero time

Free actions: Things you can do while doing other things. Talking (as long as its not a novel) , casting a quickened spell. (or a spell that comes quickened, like featherfall)

Move actions: you only get 1. You can move your speed (usualy 30 feet) put a weapon away, drink a potion etc.

Attack actions: Make one attack or cast 1 of most spells. You MAY trade an attack action for a move action, but you MAY NOT trade a move action for an attack action. This is what a sorcerer does normally when casting spells.



FULL round action: This is what a sorcerer has to do to cast a metamagic spell. You trade your attack AND move action. You also have your 5 foot step. This can be used to make multiple attacks with a weapon (if your character is good enough at making attacks like a mid level warrior or a high level wizard) or claws and bite. A dragon for example, can either

move and bite someone, or

hold still and bite them AND use two claws AND whap with his wings AND bash something with his tail.


One round action: Typically this is used to summon creatures. The wizard doesn't move more than five feet and BEGINS casting. What makes a one round action different is that the wizard will still be casting during everyone elses turns. If for example, There is a Rogue, a wizard and a barbarian fighting and they act in that order. At the start of the fight the rogue goes. Then the wizard begins casting his one round action spell. Then the barbarian gets his turn, then the rogue gets to act again, then the wizards spell is finished. The spell takes effect, and the wizard gets his turn normally, and the barbarian goes. What makes this worse than a full round action is that during the barbarians and rogues actions they can hit the wizard to try to disrupt his spell.

Ten minute casting time etc: Almost always takes place out of combat. The turn the caster starts in counts as round 1. At the start of round 100 the caster is done and can act normally.

[Optimystik]

...Rapid Metamagic is totally broken. The only mitigating factor is that you can't take it until 9th level, and even that doesn't help much.

It's strong, but far from broken. Removing the restriction on metamagic for sorcerers still doesn't bring them close to a wizard's level of Batmannery. Psions are still better at blasting on the fly, and Beguilers are still better at battlefield control on the fly.

If you want truly broken metamagic shenanigans, give Incantatrix and UM a look. (I'm not even touching Clerics and DMM.)

@derf: You forgot to add Immediate and Swift actions to that list.

[derfenrirwolv]

@derf: You forgot to add Immediate and Swift actions to that list.

It wasn't an omission. I was making a rough guide for someone that didn't get the rather confusing "full round" vs "one full round" actions. I also don't know if they play core only or add the splat books, which added swift and immediate actions into the equation. The explanation was confusing enough without them.