Blood Oath: Bonus?

[archon_huskie]

Eugene made a blood oath to go destroy Xykon. Having not read SoD, I have to ask. What is the benefit of making a blood oath. When Eugene didn't fulfill it, he doomed himself to stay outside of Celestia. So what is the upside to making a blood oath?

[Optimystik]

There is none, as far as I can see. It's just a rash and showy thing to do.

Rich represented this rather symbolically by making the oath take the form of a tattoo. :smalltongue:

[batsofchaos]

Eugene made a blood oath to go destroy Xykon. Having not read SoD, I have to ask. What is the benefit of making a blood oath. When Eugene didn't fulfill it, he doomed himself to stay outside of Celestia. So what is the upside to making a blood oath?

It's a personally affirming and bolstering gesture to refocus and direct one's energy towards completing the task at hand. :smalltongue:

It's pretty much a negative that tethered him and his progeny towards ever-seeking revenge, with no upshot.

Eugene got it when he was drunk and angry.

[archon_huskie]

Your spoilers make it make much more sense.

[Ancalagon]

The "oath-magic" reflects a state of mind that forces (bad word for that) a lawful person who made an oath (without magic) to actually keep true to that oath.

The "magic oath thing" is just a very nice representation that Eugene did more than just "utter some words" (which, for a lawful person, can be as much as magic!).

[Bibliomancer]

Also, the blood oath is an excuse to watch the world for quite a while in the afterlife, which, given Eugene's recent actions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html), might be more pleasant than where he's going.

[Optimystik]

Also, the blood oath is an excuse to watch the world for quite a while in the afterlife, which, given Eugene's recent actions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html), might be more pleasant than where he's going.

Not to turn the thread into a "Eugene's alignment" discussion, but I don't think burning that report was Evil. Chaotic, absolutely, but not Evil. It was on par with Shojo's level of falsehood.

[batsofchaos]

And as far as I know actions made post-mortem do not affect a soul's final placement. The key question is whether Eugene lived a lawful good life, which has already been established.

[Olorin Maia]

Yes, but he hasn't actually gone to the afterlife yet; he is waiting for the blood-oath to be completed. It would be completely nonsensical if his actions from this point on don't count; he could, theoretically then, actively work against good players and still go to the LG afterlife. For example, as the spirit of pure law and good, he could have condemned the OotS. Not a good act, and should be punished therfore.

[batsofchaos]

Yes, but he hasn't actually gone to the afterlife yet; he is waiting for the blood-oath to be completed. It would be completely nonsensical if his actions from this point on don't count; he could, theoretically then, actively work against good players and still go to the LG afterlife. For example, as the spirit of pure law and good, he could have condemned the OotS. Not a good act, and should be punished therfore.

It's certainly debatable one way or the other, but Eugene's life has already been judged and found fit to enter celestia except for the issue of the blood-oath and there's no evidence that he'd be rejudged once the oath is completed (no evidence that it won't be, either. The only info we have on the subject is when Violet's oath was completed and she was allowed to enter celestia; she made it sound like a pretty instantaneous 'oath is complete, up the mount I go' sort of thing, but it might have been shown off-panel).

[pita]

"That's not an evil act, that's a chaotic act"? He's working to defend the interests of someone evil despite being told not to by a legitimate being of good, who is also a higher up in the entire celestial hierarchy, in order to protect his interests. What part of that is not evil? That's a purely evil act, with chaos a second part, and it definitely affects where you will be in the afterlife.

[Ancalagon]

Plus, it's doubleplusunsmart!

[T_N_J]

I imagine that if you go all the way to making a blood oath to complete a certain task, and you succeed in completing that task, you get a furious story XP bonus. Eugene probably wouldn't get it though, because he died without ever completing the said task... which totally sucks for him. :smalltongue:

[Ancalagon]

I imagine that if you go all the way to making a blood oath to complete a certain task, and you succeed in completing that task, you get a furious story XP bonus. Eugene probably wouldn't get it though, because he died without ever completing the said task... which totally sucks for him. :smalltongue:

Blood Oath of Vengeance
Universal [Stupid]
Level: Clr 0, Bard 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: One target touched or self
Duration: Permanent or until the oath is fulfilled (see text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You must specify on whom you want to enact horrible vengeance, that person then becomes your "main plot". Should you fail to enact horrible vengeance, you cannot enter the afterlife after death if you are of lawful alignment. Should a relative enact that vengeance, you will be able to enter the afterlife.
On completion of the oath, you 50% of the xp you would need to get from your current level to the next level (if you were level 10, you would get 50% of the xp you would need to go from level 10 to level 11).

To complete the oath, you must kill the creature you wanted to enact horrbile vengeance and also must make sure that it will not get resurrected.

You can only cast the blood oath of vengeance once per ten years and can only have one at the same time.

[Olorin Maia]

It's certainly debatable one way or the other, but Eugene's life has already been judged and found fit to enter celestia except for the issue of the blood-oath and there's no evidence that he'd be rejudged once the oath is completed (no evidence that it won't be, either. The only info we have on the subject is when Violet's oath was completed and she was allowed to enter celestia; she made it sound like a pretty instantaneous 'oath is complete, up the mount I go' sort of thing, but it might have been shown off-panel).

I'm actually changing my argument. I was reading the archives, and the third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) has Roy's Archon saying that its no longer a realistic possibility that Eugene would go to Hell. I don't know if it is definitive or not, but it certainly lends credence to the idea that it is only what you do during your life, and not after your dead.

[Optimystik]

"That's not an evil act, that's a chaotic act"? He's working to defend the interests of someone evil despite being told not to by a legitimate being of good, who is also a higher up in the entire celestial hierarchy, in order to protect his interests. What part of that is not evil? That's a purely evil act, with chaos a second part, and it definitely affects where you will be in the afterlife.

It is an act of deception for the Greater Good, much like Shojo's lies. Consider the following:

a) Roy was considered by Celestia to be accountable for the morality of his followers.

b) His argument about Belkar - "he'll do less evil under my supervision" - is all that kept Belkar's actions from affecting his record.

c) That same argument is unlikely to work for Vaarsuvius. V isn't psychotic, and so his behavior with the Order is unlikely to be vastly different from his behavior away from them. Roy would be forced to choose between keeping V on the team, and risking his place on the Mountain.

d) Eugene thinks that a wizard is necessary to beat Xykon. This is due to his own prejudices, true, but he may be correct nonetheless.

By burning the folder, therefore, Eugene is committing a Chaotic act (deceiving authority) for a Good end (Xykon's defeat.) His own personal stake in that outcome (being freed from limbo) may degrade the altruism of that deed to Neutrality, but not as far as Evil.


I'm actually changing my argument. I was reading the archives, and the third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) has Roy's Archon saying that its no longer a realistic possibility that Eugene would go to Hell. I don't know if it is definitive or not, but it certainly lends credence to the idea that it is only what you do during your life, and not after your dead.

Hell may not be a realistic possibility, but all that tells us is that Eugene is not LE. The other afterlives (even CE, though I doubt that one) remain unaffected by that statement.

[Finwe]

"That's not an evil act, that's a chaotic act"? He's working to defend the interests of someone evil despite being told not to by a legitimate being of good, who is also a higher up in the entire celestial hierarchy, in order to protect his interests. What part of that is not evil? That's a purely evil act, with chaos a second part, and it definitely affects where you will be in the afterlife.

IF Vaarsuvius is evil, he's not exactly Evil with an uppercase 'e.' He is, after all, still working for the greater good of the multiverse. It's not as if Eugene allied himself with Xykon. He's keeping V's actions secret because he thought that V should't be punished for attempting to kill Xykon. Was burning the report the best course of action? probably not, because now the fiends will take the OOTS by surprise, but how you somehow a see that action as "evil" escapes me.

[batsofchaos]

If comic 667 shows anything, it's that V is no longer on the descent to evil. Not only has the reason behind V's obsession gone away (ie the need to locate Haley and get Roy resurrected), but V had a nice crash-course on priorities. I doubt V will pursue anything evil going forward. The IFCC utilizing V's power to their own ends is another matter, and one that will probably arise at the worst possible time for the Order. This event might have been prevented by the info in the folder, but Eugene took care of that which is a good thing from a narrative stand-point; stilting the agenda of the IFCC right now is hardly that climactic. Literary reasons aside, V is interested in keeping the deal under wraps believing that V's soul will only be controled after death, and Eugene is interested in the same believing there to be no value in delivering the information to Roy.

[Forbiddenwar]

Not to mention there is no reason for Eugene to know the exact details of the deal. I think he knows only what the Celestrial stated. Eugene didn't read the folder before toasting it.

[veti]

We know that, to get into Celestia, you need to pass a kind of entrance exam. So what makes us think that the other outer planes are any different? The interviewer talks about "tossing (Roy) over to True Neutral", but there's no reason for us to assume that TN would accept him.

I'm theorising that maybe all the outer planes have a similarly rigorous process. None of them except Celestia would admit Eugene, because of his life record.

So actions performed "on the cloud" might keep him out of Celestia, might make them think he should be sent to Gehenna or something, but that doesn't mean Gehenna would let him in. Maybe he'll be stuck on the cloud forever, or maybe in some other afterlife's waiting room. Maybe there's a special "default" place for souls that don't belong anywhere. Or maybe they're just melted down as scrap for reuse.

Just a few possibilities there...

[Olorin Maia]

I always assumed that it was only the beings of Law and Good that could judge someone. Afterall, if a being of chaos was judging you, would you really get a fair hearing? No, I think that any evil domain would simply take everyone, and chaotic would not believe in judgment at all, so it would have to be as it is.

[veti]

Afterall, if a being of chaos was judging you, would you really get a fair hearing?

No, of course you wouldn't. Nor yet if an evil being were doing the judging. But if you were that kind of person, you wouldn't be expecting one anyway.

No doubt the entrance processes would be very different - maybe more along the lines of Belkar's entrance exam (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html) for the Barrbaryunz Guild - but it's still some way of making sure only the Right Sort of People get in.

Edited for speeling

[Bibliomancer]

We know that, to get into Celestia, you need to pass a kind of entrance exam. So what makes us think that the other outer planes are any different? The interviewer talks about "tossing (Roy) over to True Neutral", but there's no reason for us to assume that TN would accept him.

I'm theorising that maybe all the outer planes have a similarly rigorous process. None of them except Celestia would admit Eugene, because of his life record.

So actions performed "on the cloud" might keep him out of Celestia, might make them think he should be sent to Gehenna or something, but that doesn't mean Gehenna would let him in. Maybe he'll be stuck on the cloud forever, or maybe in some other afterlife's waiting room. Maybe there's a special "default" place for souls that don't belong anywhere. Or maybe they're just melted down as scrap for reuse.

Just a few possibilities there...

What I found very annoying about the whole interview process is that alignment isn't something determined...it just is. Thus, a soul immediately goes to the appropriate afterlife when it dies, and so the archon interviewing Roy was merely raking him over the coals for some incredibly stupid LG reason, like attempting to teach him a lesson about morality in the afterlife. The fact that she was talking to Roy meant that he was fit to go to the mountain (barring a special case like doing something after dieing).

As a person who is LG according to "what DnD character are you" (http://www.easydamus.com/character.html) tests, I found the entire interview pointless and unnecessary, the kind of bureaucratic thing that best exemplifies LN, not LG.

Keeping this in mind, I still think that Eugene could be sent to another afterlife at this point, given that your actions affect your alignment as long as you are still sentient. Anything else would simply be the largest loophole in the universe.

[Kish]

IF Vaarsuvius is evil, he's not exactly Evil with an uppercase 'e.'
This reminded me of Xykon's speech to Redcloak at the end of SoD, and so it made me laugh. Whiny "evil, but for a good cause" crap it is, then. :smalltongue:

[Bibliomancer]

This reminded me of Xykon's speech to Redcloak at the end of SoD, and so it made me laugh. Whiny "evil, but for a good cause" crap it is, then. :smalltongue:

Interestingly, that would mean that in our world there is far more 'evil' than 'Evil'.

...not sure if this is good or bad.

[David Demola]

The "oath-magic" reflects a state of mind that forces (bad word for that) a lawful person who made an oath (without magic) to actually keep true to that oath.

The "magic oath thing" is just a very nice representation that Eugene did more than just "utter some words" (which, for a lawful person, can be as much as magic!).

Think of it like this...

Oath Magic is a metaphorical legal document that says "I will do [blah]". If you don't do it, you suffer the punishment of not doing it.

Just giving your oath to someone, if you're lawful, isn't the same. There's nothing binding to it (even if you're a paladin). True, you can't give an oath and just go back on it - that's lying. But if you - for example - swear to kill an evil lich, and die in the process, you won't get kept out of Celestia for it.

It's like signing a contract vs. telling your friend you'll do something. In the latter version, if you can't do it, your friend will understand. Contracts are less forgiving.

[veti]

As a person who is LG according to "what DnD character are you" (http://www.easydamus.com/character.html) tests, I found the entire interview pointless and unnecessary, the kind of bureaucratic thing that best exemplifies LN, not LG.

I clock LG or LN on that test (depending how I feel like answering those questions that I think are just plain stupid, like the ones about assassinating the president or curing the plague)... and the interview seemed perfectly reasonable to me. The character sheet may say LG, the character may worship a god who lives in Celestia, but the character may still not have lived up to their god's expected standards.

[Optimystik]

We know that, to get into Celestia, you need to pass a kind of entrance exam. So what makes us think that the other outer planes are any different? The interviewer talks about "tossing (Roy) over to True Neutral", but there's no reason for us to assume that TN would accept him.

TN wouldn't care, meaning they would.

My theory is that OotS is based on a hybrid of Greyhawk and Faerun: On death, you go to your deity's plane, but at the door his underlings judge you and then usher you to your true final destination.


So actions performed "on the cloud" might keep him out of Celestia, might make them think he should be sent to Gehenna or something, but that doesn't mean Gehenna would let him in. Maybe he'll be stuck on the cloud forever, or maybe in some other afterlife's waiting room. Maybe there's a special "default" place for souls that don't belong anywhere. Or maybe they're just melted down as scrap for reuse.

Just a few possibilities there...

In all honesty I think he's better off outside Celestia. I really don't see how he managed to be rated LG in the first place. A Lawful Good illusionist is like a Lawful Good rogue; possible, but extremely rare.

"Melted down as scrap for reuse" is a lot like what the Lower Planes do, so I'd say he's safe from that at least.