Monk/Rogue Build optimization

[Forbiddenwar]

In 3.5, what feats work well for a monk/rogue character? Is there a feat that allows the levels to stack for some class features, like with monk/paladin?

[Lord Loss]

Idon't know about many feats, but you'll want to upgrade your unarmed strike (Stunning Fist, etc.), because you'll use it to get tons of Sneak Attack. It's a good but not-much used build.

[Mr.Moron]

What sources do you have available (What are allowed, even if you don't have them)?

Is this for a character that is already being played, or one that's to be created?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Generally I'd recommend snagging very little monk, and focusing on boosting SA. The first couple levels are fine, but the class is very front-loaded. I'd say your best bet may be to combine IUS with a reach weapon.

[Draz74]

Is there a feat that allows the levels to stack for some class features, like with monk/paladin?

Ascetic Rogue from Complete Adventurer. Adds to your Stunning Fist DC in Sneak situations, and levels stack only for unarmed damage.

[Forbiddenwar]

A high level monk/rogue with maxed move silently/hide/listen/spot, high ac (for a rogue) high HP, improved init, might be able to get 4 sneak attacks in the surprise round (at 2d10=5d6 each) and another 4 sneak attacks if she beats init. Added with stunning fist ability. I'm surpised it's not a build done more often. think pressure point monk.

Is there any Feats outside of the phb that can help it be even cooler? Is there a feat that allows for even progression of levels (normally it's very difficult to multi class out of monk)
Edit: Thanks Draz,
any others?
Character is to be created, all 3.5 books allowed, thinking long term, starting at ECL of 10. Focused on stealth and unarmed damage. Perhaps prestiging into ninja or assasin (if possible and recommened, don't know too much about those)
BABage kind of sucks though, any ideas to improve it?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ascetic Rogue from Complete Adventurer. Adds to your Stunning Fist DC in Sneak situations, and levels stack only for unarmed damage.

This plus only a couple of levels of Monk means having all the advantages of a Monk without...yanno... as much Suck.

TWFing will be necessary to maximize damage output, as well as a method of reliably closing with opponents and not dying to be able to use TWF. Core, there is no way to obtain this. With ToB, you can take a two-level dip in Swordsage to get Pouncing Strike, and also grab Assassin's Stance while you are at it. Island of Blades is also useful in presenting more sneak attack opportunities.

[Xenogears]

What alignment? If you dont mind being evil (and taking a serious hit to bluff/diplomacy with good NPC's) there are some great fiendish grafts. Get a long arm and now you have 10ft reach for only like 5k gp. Plus its permanent and non-magical. 10k for wings. Some other good ones too but you basically hafta be evil (good characters take wis damage and nuetral must make saves or do evil) and get a -6 penalty on things like bluff.

[Lord Loss]

Flurry of blows + Sneak Attack is always good...

[Ernir]

Also, try to convince the DM that Ascetic Rogue stacks the Monk and Rogue levels for Sneak Attack damage.
It says so in the table, not in the text. :smalltongue:

[Indon]

If you're particularly dex-oriented, and have some way to hide effectively in combat (invisibility or concealment or the like), you could go with shruiken and TWF/Flurry/Rapid Shot to be able to spam ranged sneak attacks.

[Glyde]

Drunken Master - Sneak attack with a barstool

[Forbiddenwar]

If you're particularly dex-oriented, and have some way to hide effectively in combat (invisibility or concealment or the like), you could go with shruiken and TWF/Flurry/Rapid Shot to be able to spam ranged sneak attacks.

I was thinking being able to move 100 ft per round, spring attack, and maxxed hide means I could move in, sneak attack and spring away, all in one round.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Intuitive Attack allows you to use your Wis modifier in place of Str for determining attack bonus.

[Indon]

I was thinking being able to move 100 ft per round, spring attack, and maxxed hide means I could move in, sneak attack and spring away, all in one round.

Yes, but then you only get to swing once.

With TWF/Flurry/Rapid Shot you could make three attacks (as a full attack), even with a BAB lower than 6, and Monk 1 (though all attacks would get a -6 without enough Monk levels to mitigate the Flurry penalty).

Flurry improves at Monk levels 5, 9, and 11, to -1 penalty, 0 penalty, and +2 total attacks respectively.

But this is only advised if you're really pushing the hidey-aspect of the character, as without a way to consistently render your opponents flat-footed, you won't be able to do very much with your awesome sneak attack death spam.

[Launchpad]

You may want to take a look at the halfling monk racial substitution from "Races Of The Wild".

At level 1 you get a lesser version of skirmish (compared to the scout) which replaces flurry of blows. This might be interesting if you get the feat "Swift Ambusher" from Comp Scoundrel. You might even consider "Improved Skirmish" later then.
At level 2 you get Weapon Finesse (replacing the bonus feat)
At level 7 you get a bonus depending on your first level bonus feat. They both work only against enemys at least two categories larger then you and replace "Wholeness of Body". If you chose improved grapple you get an additional +4 on grapple checks, if you chose stunning fist you get +4 on your stunning DC. This would either make you a "still not so good" grappler or make your stunning attacks fearfull for large creatures again.
(You can quite easy get the DC in the 30s this way. Get "Ability Focus(stunning fist)", increase Wisdom at top priority, the "Ascetic Rogue" feat might add another 2. Some items increase the DC but I can't remember them right now)

All levels gain 6 skill points and a D6 hit die.

Possible build:

Race: Strongheart Halfling (bonus feat instead of save bonus, FRCS)
Attributes: Wis>Dex>as you like the rest
Level 1 -2 : Monk, both racial substitution levels taken
Level 3 : Rogue
Level 4-6 : Monk
Level 7-8 : Rogue
Level 9-10: Monk, last substitution level taken
Level 11+: Rogue

Feats:
1: Ability Focus (stunning fist), Yondalla's Senses (Wis on Ini, RotW, stacks with Dex and improved Initiative, not really needed but nice)
3: Ascetic Rogue
6: Swift Ambusher
9: Improved Skirmish (the 3 rogue levels get you 1d6/+1AC, nothing says that you really need scout levels for stacking...
12,15,18: your choise

This gets you +2D6/2AC Skirmish (+4D6/4AC if moved 20ft), 2d6 sneak attack (both will increase as you gain rogue levels later), and a (possible) stunning fist DC 30
(+2 abiity focus, +5 lvl, +4 large enemy (or get yourself an item that shrinks you), +2 ascetic rogue, +7 Wisdom (could be +8 if you start with an 18 increase it at 4 and 8 and get a +6 wis item) ) (take a look at the magic item compendium for items that increase the DC)

Don't forget that stunned foes lose their Dex to AC...

[Curmudgeon]

This plus only a couple of levels of Monk means having all the advantages of a Monk without...yanno... as much Suck. No, just one. You want to minimize your loss of sneak attack. Ascetic Rogue with some unarmed damage boosters gets you into decent damage, without spending much on expensive weapons. Permanent Greater Magic Fang is cheap (because it can be dispelled, of course), and should do very well until you can afford a Necklace of Natural Attacks.

Also, try to convince the DM that Ascetic Rogue stacks the Monk and Rogue levels for Sneak Attack damage.
It says so in the table, not in the text. :smalltongue: Text always trumps table. Trying to convince your DM to ignore the rules is going to get you smacked with whatever book the DM has handy -- and they're all hardcovers. :smalleek:

[Reaper_Monkey]

Permanent Greater Magic Fang is cheap (because it can be dispelled, of course), and should do very well until you can afford a Necklace of Natural Attacks.

Cant you enchant monks fists as they are considered weapons, those can't be dispelled if memory serves me right, and it doesn't cost anymore than if you were to put it on a normal weapon. Thus lots of boons but never disarmed (unless you like, literally disarmed, but then you've other concerns by that point I think).

The Necklace of Natural Weapons allows you to apply the same sort of thing but to all natural attacks (cost scales however to the number of attacks it applies to) and can be removed (thus disarmed) but does allow you to change without concern (unlike getting them enchanted directly)

[olentu]

Cant you enchant monks fists as they are considered weapons, those can't be dispelled if memory serves me right, and it doesn't cost anymore than if you were to put it on a normal weapon. Thus lots of boons but never disarmed (unless you like, literally disarmed, but then you've other concerns by that point I think).

The Necklace of Natural Weapons allows you to apply the same sort of thing but to all natural attacks (cost scales however to the number of attacks it applies to) and can be removed (thus disarmed) but does allow you to change without concern (unlike getting them enchanted directly)

Well one problem is with finding masterwork unarmed strikes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The best Rogue/Monk character both mechanically and in flavor is an Unarmed Swordsage 20.

[lsfreak]

I was thinking being able to move 100 ft per round, spring attack, and maxxed hide means I could move in, sneak attack and spring away, all in one round.

It's a trap!

If you're going to only do one hit, make an ubercharger whose one hit can drop someone immediately. If you're going to sneak attack, do sneak attack, and that means getting as many attacks at as high a bonus as you can so you can do tons of damage. One sneak attack at high level is nothing more than a light scratch, say 80 damage, when enemies regularly have 500+. Instead, charge in, full attack from Pounce, and following up with a full attack next round gets you 80 damage per attack and ~10 possible attacks each round.

[Xenogears]

Well one problem is with finding masterwork unarmed strikes.

I assure you that were I a DnD character my entire body would be of masterwork quality.

[Quietus]

No, just one. You want to minimize your loss of sneak attack. Ascetic Rogue with some unarmed damage boosters gets you into decent damage, without spending much on expensive weapons. Permanent Greater Magic Fang is cheap (because it can be dispelled, of course), and should do very well until you can afford a Necklace of Natural Attacks.

As a Rogue, you have proficiency with gauntlets. Wear them. They allow you to strike as though with an unarmed strike, but now you can enchant them.


Monk1/Rogue19 isn't bad, but you don't get a whole lot of stunning fist that way. Monk3/Rogue17 is fairly good, you lose a special ability but pick up faster base speed, still mind, and a couple extra stunning fists early on, at the cost of 2d6 sneak attack.

Monk5/Rogue15 gets you +1 AC, Ki Strike (Magic), slow fall 20 feet, purity of body (immune to nonmagical diseases), 1d8 fists, and a -1 flurry instead of -2... but now you've given up 3d6 sneak attack, which will at this point really start to hurt.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Monk1/Rogue19 isn't bad, but you don't get a whole lot of stunning fist that way. Monk3/Rogue17 is fairly good, you lose a special ability but pick up faster base speed, still mind, and a couple extra stunning fists early on, at the cost of 2d6 sneak attack.
.
Monk2/Rogue18 is my choice. The faster speed can be made up with by an item.

[Quietus]

Monk2/Rogue18 is my choice. The faster speed can be made up with by an item.

That still puts you back 2d6 sneak attack, in exchange for a bonus feat and evasion (which you'd get from Rogue anyway). I'd rather still be behind the 2d6 sneak (albeit a level behind upgrading it), with 3 stunning fists, still mind, and a boost to my base speed. There's more important items to get than speed items early on.

[waterpenguin43]

I would recomend gnome tunnel acrobatics (Dungeonscape, you don't necessarily need to be a gnome) for giving your foes the falling damage you would have taken (especially effective if combined with the wall walker monk variant from the same book) and making them AoO each other by tumbling through them.

[Eldariel]

That still puts you back 2d6 sneak attack, in exchange for a bonus feat and evasion (which you'd get from Rogue anyway). I'd rather still be behind the 2d6 sneak (albeit a level behind upgrading it), with 3 stunning fists, still mind, and a boost to my base speed. There's more important items to get than speed items early on.

1d6. And he's better off from 4 to 19 than Monk 3/Rogue 17 (obviously you take Rogue-level first for skills anyways). Also, extra skill points. It's worth noting though that Monk bonus feats suck for a Rogue.

You don't want to be anywhere near grapple, disarming really ain't that useful that often (although it's less horrible than many other options, best thing you get outta this dip), you're unlike to have Wis for Stunning Fist, you're unlike to want to fight unarmed over using real weapons and Deflect Arrows...eh. The alternatives from Unearthed Arcana are significantly better though so if using those, the dip is grows folds better.


Monk 2 gives you the saves, which is really the best part about Monk, and something Rogue likes little boost in. Still Mind is annoyingly limited and frankly, hard to keep a track of (especially with regards to Monster-abilities due to the "effects"-phrase) and a relatively minor bonus anyways, and the movement speed is only functional when unarmored so unless you have a gigantic Wis (16+), you'll still be wearing a light armor and thus not using it.

Besides, you'll want Haste or at least Expeditious Retreat from an item ASAP anyways and that kind of bonuses require 9 levels of Monk to match (at which point you no longer want the items for the enhancement bonus to speed, but 9 levels is a hefty price).


Frankly, IMHO the best Rogue/Monk is Rogue 20 (up until level 19 anyways; I guess you can take that token level of Barbarian/Monk/whatever at the end), picking up a Monk's Belt.

Although Rogue 3/Swordsage 17 does the whole "ninja"-shtick much, much better.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I'd throw sword sage 1 or 2 in there at some point after level 8...say level 9 or maybe 9 and 10. That way you have 4 'base' initiator levels for your monk 2 /rogue 6, and one more for taking your first level of sword sage for a total of initiator level 5. Take assasin's stance, and if you get a second level island of blades...also pick up some other good things...wolf fang strike is nice, as is shadow garrote. A 5d6 touch attach that can get SA damage...always fun.

Plan accordingly, and maybe also get one level of Shadow Sun Ninja...if you do, one is all you need. The touch of shadow sun is great, and the one level will boost your effective monk level to 3 to boost your speed and stunning.

For feats, ascetic rogue is a must...improved natural attack (fists)...superior unarmed strike is optional, though it will make up for some ground with your unarmed damage if you decide to take something like kensai...not the best class in the world, but it is one of the only ways to actually enchant your fists with effects...though I heard one can add effects to th amulet of mighty fists. Haven't seen the rules on that.

Take the rest of the levels in rogue...a good sneak attack is always fun. If you don't mind exalted feats...sacred strike is fun...d8 sneak attacks are yum.

[lsfreak]

Although Rogue 3/Swordsage 17 does the whole "ninja"-shtick much, much better.

And if you're wanting high sneak attack damage, than rogue18/ss2 or something similar is much better than monk/rogue. Throw in maneuvers and feats that get you "batmany" effects and you can mimic what a monk was meant to do (battlefield control/manipulation through grappling, disarming, and the like) waay better than a monk can, by staggering/strength-draining/forcing flatfooted/whatever.
EDIT: Does shadow garrote and friends get sneak attack, or merely force flat-footed so your friends get it?

[Darrin]

Well one problem is with finding masterwork unarmed strikes.

They're called gauntlets. And fortunately, rogues are even proficient with them. However, you can't flurry with gauntlets unless you take the Unorthodox Flurry feat (Dragon Compendium p. 109) or three levels of Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East p. 32).

Unfortunately, the best way to optimize a Monk/Rogue build is take as little monk as possible... ideally, zero levels. However, it slides way back over into the "Awesomeness on Toast" column if you can pick up a few levels of Unarmed Swordsage instead.

[Quietus]

1d6. And he's better off from 4 to 19 than Monk 3/Rogue 17 (obviously you take Rogue-level first for skills anyways). Also, extra skill points. It's worth noting though that Monk bonus feats suck for a Rogue.

You don't want to be anywhere near grapple, disarming really ain't that useful that often (although it's less horrible than many other options, best thing you get outta this dip), you're unlike to have Wis for Stunning Fist, you're unlike to want to fight unarmed over using real weapons and Deflect Arrows...eh. The alternatives from Unearthed Arcana are significantly better though so if using those, the dip is grows folds better.


Monk 2 gives you the saves, which is really the best part about Monk, and something Rogue likes little boost in. Still Mind is annoyingly limited and frankly, hard to keep a track of (especially with regards to Monster-abilities due to the "effects"-phrase) and a relatively minor bonus anyways, and the movement speed is only functional when unarmored so unless you have a gigantic Wis (16+), you'll still be wearing a light armor and thus not using it.

Besides, you'll want Haste or at least Expeditious Retreat from an item ASAP anyways and that kind of bonuses require 9 levels of Monk to match (at which point you no longer want the items for the enhancement bonus to speed, but 9 levels is a hefty price).


Frankly, IMHO the best Rogue/Monk is Rogue 20 (up until level 19 anyways; I guess you can take that token level of Barbarian/Monk/whatever at the end), picking up a Monk's Belt.

Although Rogue 3/Swordsage 17 does the whole "ninja"-shtick much, much better.

Meh. What I meant was that Rogue18 gets the same sneak attack as Rogue17. The exact number of d6's doesn't much matter. As for being unlikely to have Wis, you can very easily pick up Intuitive Attack for Wis to attack rolls with simple weapons, as opposed to getting Weapon Finesse. Then you can pump Wis for AC, Stunning Fist, attack rolls, will saves, and perception skills. Beyond that, your exact build would determine what other stats you'd need.

As for bonus feats; Stunning Fist is nice to have if you can land it. You'd want more than 1/day though, which is why 2 or 3 levels of Monk to start things off is a good idea. Though you should always take your first level in Rogue... skill points ahoy. Deflect Arrows is very nice to have when you're looking at as good a reflex save as a monk/rogue would end up with.

As for haste/expeditious retreat, the first is expensive as hell to get (boost of speed are 12k for 10 rounds/day), and the second requires a DM willing to let you break the custom item rules pretty hard - and going by WBL you can't even spend the 8k needed until level 8, assuming 1/3 of your total WBL can go into a single item. And at that point, well... 8k is still huge. Yes, when you can get a permanent boost to foot speed in item form, that boost from Monk3 isn't as helpful, but as a growing character, Rogue1/Monk3/RogueX isn't a bad way to go. Monk2 is viable as well if you like. And yes, if you're starting at a high enough level that you can get one to start out, a monk's belt can replace much of what Monk offers. But that's not what we were asked for, here - we were asked to optimize monk/rogue, not a rogue with a monk's belt.

[Quietus]

They're called gauntlets. And fortunately, rogues are even proficient with them. However, you can't flurry with gauntlets unless you take the Unorthodox Flurry feat (Dragon Compendium p. 109) or three levels of Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East p. 32).

Unfortunately, the best way to optimize a Monk/Rogue build is take as little monk as possible... ideally, zero levels. However, it slides way back over into the "Awesomeness on Toast" column if you can pick up a few levels of Unarmed Swordsage instead.

Depends on how you read this :


This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.


To me, that means that you can flurry with them, because they are considered unarmed strikes- which are flurryable. It's just that gauntlets allow you to not spend twice as much enchanting them, and lets you get enhancements on it other than straight +x.

[Curmudgeon]

To me, that means that you can flurry with them, because they are considered unarmed strikes- which are flurryable. That's the kind of thinking that will get your DM to smack you with the heaviest book they've got at hand. Gauntlets aren't on the special monk weapons list. The fact that they function the same as if you were unarmed doesn't change that.

Why bother with all this runaround when you can get a Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) anyway? It does what you want and doesn't get you smacked upside the head.

[erikun]

*reads* Throwing Returing Flurry of Fists? :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

*reads* Throwing Returing Flurry of Fists? :smallbiggrin: Sure. Just a little inconvenient what with the maiming and blood loss to the attacker on each strike. :smallsigh:

[Frosty]

Sure. Just a little inconvenient what with the maiming and blood loss to the attacker on each strike. :smallsigh:

What if you're a Warforged with special components like you replaced your hands with a weapon of some sort?

ROCKETTO PAUNNNNCHU!

[quick_comment]

Go Unarmed Swordsage/Lurk instead of Monk/Rogue. Lurk Augments are basically just more kinds of boosts. I would go Swordsage 1/Lurk 2/Swordsage +1/Lurk+2 and so on, until you get to lurk 10. After that, go straight swordsage.

[Quietus]

That's the kind of thinking that will get your DM to smack you with the heaviest book they've got at hand. Gauntlets aren't on the special monk weapons list. The fact that they function the same as if you were unarmed doesn't change that.

Why bother with all this runaround when you can get a Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) anyway? It does what you want and doesn't get you smacked upside the head.

I have yet to meet a DM who's got a problem with hand wraps that function as gauntlets. Also, that Necklace of Natural Attacks is from a non-core source, and seriously, why would putting a little metal on your hands stop you from smacking something with them?

The core method for enchanting unarmed strikes is an amulet of some sort, I can't remember the name, and for some unknown reason, costs double what it should - probably due to the "unusual body slot" thing. Which suggests that you should be able to put the same enchantments on an item for the proper body slot, does it not? I'd say hands would be the right slot for enchantment bonuses to unarmed strikes.

[Mr.Moron]

That's the kind of thinking that will get your DM to smack you with the heaviest book they've got at hand. Gauntlets aren't on the special monk weapons list. The fact that they function the same as if you were unarmed doesn't change that.


If your DM is a major dink who gets a masturbatory thrill out of his ability to say "No" maybe.

There is no reason to force more expensive/more limited ways of getting magic weapons for a character using unarmed strikes - especially a monk.

EDIT: Asking to have something worn on the hands function as a means of enchanting your Unarmed Strikes with flurry is about as reasonable as a request can get.

[Curmudgeon]

I have yet to meet a DM who's got a problem with hand wraps that function as gauntlets. Hand wraps are also not on the monk special weapons list. Still no flurry of blows.

Also, that Necklace of Natural Attacks is from a non-core source So what? The Ascetic Rogue feat is from a non-core source, too. There's absolutely nothing special about "core" books except you can buy them in a convenient boxed set.

There is no reason to force more expensive/more limited ways of getting magic weapons for a character using unarmed strikes - especially a monk. Absolutely not. Enhancing a Necklace of Natural Attacks costs the same for a single natural attack (unarmed strike) as enhancing a single dagger. Who's forcing anything on anyone, except a bit of restraint in going outside the rules?

[Mr.Moron]

Absolutely not. Enhancing a Necklace of Natural Attacks costs the same for a single natural attack (unarmed strike) as enhancing a single dagger. Who's forcing anything on anyone, except a bit of restraint in going outside the rules?

No it costs more. It's 600gp + Enhancement costs. A Magic Whatever based on a normal masterwork item is going to be in the mid/high 300s+ Enhancement Cost.

EDIT:
It also uses up your neck slot, which is otherwise useful.
Also, it's very different flavor.

[Quietus]

Hand wraps are also not on the monk special weapons list. Still no flurry of blows.

Count'em as bracers if you have to. This all being said, all wearing a gauntlet does is makes your unarmed strikes do lethal damage. Outside of that, you attack as though you're making unarmed strikes - which ARE a Monk special weapon. Sadly, Monks aren't proficient with either gauntlets or unarmed strikes.

[Frosty]

Count'em as bracers if you have to. This all being said, all wearing a gauntlet does is makes your unarmed strikes do lethal damage. Outside of that, you attack as though you're making unarmed strikes - which ARE a Monk special weapon. Sadly, Monks aren't proficient with either gauntlets or unarmed strikes.

Well they can spend a feat on Simple Weapon Proficiency to become proficient with their own fists...

[Curmudgeon]

No it costs more. It's 600gp + Enhancement costs. A Magic Whatever based on a normal masterwork item is going to be in the mid/high 300s+ Enhancement Cost. If you treat gauntlets as two separate weapons (as you should; after all they're physically separate, unlike the two ends of a quarterstaff), the cost is actually less for the Necklace. Plus there's the whole issue of an unarmed strike using all parts of your body:
Unarmed Attacks

Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts To be consistent, you would need to prevent a Monk with gauntlets on their hands from gaining that unarmed strike enhancement if they use the Snap Kick feat. Right?

I just don't get all this enthusiasm for going outside the rules regarding Monks with gauntlets, when there's a pretty adequate solution that doesn't require breaking the rules.

[Quietus]

It's all just an extension of something else that we really don't even need to be arguing about; It says right there in the description of Gauntlets that "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack". If you can flurry with an unarmed attack, you can flurry with a gauntlet, because outside of the lethal damage schtick, it IS an unarmed attack. It's not exactly unambiguous.

[Frosty]

Why id this turn into another monk debate?

[Quietus]

*Shrugs* Any time someone asks about using one, it tends to devolve into that. At least here it's a discussion of the mechanics surrounding them, rather than an outright shouting match of "Monks suck!".

[Curmudgeon]

EDIT:
It also uses up your neck slot, which is otherwise useful. Check Magic Item Compendium, pages 233-234. You can add both CON and WIS boosts to your Necklace of Natural Attacks with no cost premium.

[olentu]

It's all just an extension of something else that we really don't even need to be arguing about; It says right there in the description of Gauntlets that "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack". If you can flurry with an unarmed attack, you can flurry with a gauntlet, because outside of the lethal damage schtick, it IS an unarmed attack. It's not exactly unambiguous.

Would you provide text that says that an unarmed strike and an unarmed attack are always the same thing because it they are not always the same thing then one can not say that a gauntlet attack necessarily counts as an unarmed strike.

Edit: Or alternatively you could provide text that says an attack with a gauntlet is an unarmed strike.

[Mr.Moron]

Check Magic Item Compendium, pages 233-234. You can add both CON and WIS boosts to your Necklace of Natural Attacks with no cost premium.

...and if you want to use your Neck Slot for some other nifty effect?


It's minor change, and not a harmful one. I see no problem with a player wanting it. Is it RAW? No, but I'm not trying to claim that. Nothing wrong with asking to go outside it so long as you're being honest about the whole deal. RAW is often silly.

[Forbiddenwar]

Thank-you for all the advice.
I asked, gauntlet and flurry Not allowed.
Its a solo adventure, So I think I really need the monks healing ability
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is weapon finese. Yes/No?
Wouldn't that help my babage? Especially with maxxed Dex and Wisdom (aiming for 20+ each)
I also asked about acestic monk feat. He houseruled the chart in (again, see solo adventure) so that monk and rogue levels stack for sneak attack.

[Kaiyanwang]

See, if it's a solo adventure, you could focus on few things:

1) Improve your stunning fist DC and initiative (core)

2) Complete scoundrel has a lot of ambush feats, there is one allowing you to deliver SA in the subsequent round if you renounce to (IIRC) 3d6 SA dice from a blow.

Combine it with a skill trick in the same manual allowing to SA a round thereafter, and then use Stunning fist (and maybe tricks and feats with the quickdraw ---> Flatfooted combo) and then you can exploit like 4 rounds of SA.

Of course, there are situations in wich you have to kill the enemy in a round, or you cannot SA him, but generally speaking solo adventures are tailored.

[Quietus]

Would you provide text that says that an unarmed strike and an unarmed attack are always the same thing because it they are not always the same thing then one can not say that a gauntlet attack necessarily counts as an unarmed strike.

Edit: Or alternatively you could provide text that says an attack with a gauntlet is an unarmed strike.

I already have. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet


Gauntlet

This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

[olentu]

I already have. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet

I am sorry, perhaps you are misunderstanding me. When I say could provide text that says an attack with a gauntlet is an unarmed strike I mean unarmed strike. Your quote only says that "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack." Now since you have not provided text that says that all unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes that means that an unarmed attack is not necessarily an unarmed strike.

So since in the flurry of blows entry I have only been able to find the combination of words of unarmed strike a monk can only flurry with unarmed strikes and unless you can show that an unarmed attack is always an unarmed strike a monk is not necessarily able to flurry with any old unarmed attack.

[Aneantir]

If you`re going to roll with a Monk/Rogue, you want 2 levels in Monk and you want to take the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil. It replaces evasion, and gives you Invisibility as an immediate action that lasts one round, and you can use the ability once every three rounds.

Personally, I think it's cool as beans and actually makes the dip somewhat viable.

[Forbiddenwar]

I am sorry, perhaps you are misunderstanding me. When I say could provide text that says an attack with a gauntlet is an unarmed strike I mean unarmed strike. Your quote only says that "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack." Now since you have not provided text that says that all unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes that means that an unarmed attack is not necessarily an unarmed strike.

So since in the flurry of blows entry I have only been able to find the combination of words of unarmed strike a monk can only flurry with unarmed strikes and unless you can show that an unarmed attack is always an unarmed strike a monk is not necessarily able to flurry with any old unarmed attack.

As it happens, my DM agrees with you. So, gauntlets are out, by the law of DM, which trumps everything. That should settle the matter, no?

[Forbiddenwar]

If you`re going to roll with a Monk/Rogue, you want 2 levels in Monk and you want to take the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil. It replaces evasion, and gives you Invisibility as an immediate action that lasts one round, and you can use the ability once every three rounds.

Personally, I think it's cool as beans and actually makes the dip somewhat viable.

Does it require evil alignment? What does it require? I can't find any information about it.

[Optimystik]

Any reason OP can't just be a Ninja?

[olentu]

As it happens, my DM agrees with you. So, gauntlets are out, by the law of DM, which trumps everything. That should settle the matter, no?

Well it appears I missed your post and the DM thing should settle things.

Also after giving a quick once over of the alternative class feature in exemplars of evil, while the whole section seems to be designed for villains the alternative class feature itself is missing the special requirement that one must be evil that some of the others have so unless I missed something in my quick review being evil does not seem to be a requirement.

[Quietus]

As it happens, my DM agrees with you. So, gauntlets are out, by the law of DM, which trumps everything. That should settle the matter, no?

For the purposes of this thread, sure. In general, it just means that I'll have to agree to disagree.

[Curmudgeon]

If you`re going to roll with a Monk/Rogue, you want 2 levels in Monk and you want to take the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil. It replaces evasion, and gives you Invisibility as an immediate action that lasts one round, and you can use the ability once every three rounds. This is pretty nifty, all right, but your description is problematic. Invisible Fist doesn't actually call out Invisibility (as the spell); it says "you become invisible". The spell would fail on the first attack; this supernatural ability is instead described as lasting for the round.

[Lord Loss]

I JUST REALIZED!!! DUH!!! The flanking feats found in PHB2!!! They let you flank as if you were on the square beside the one you're on!!! DUH! YIPEE!

[Forbiddenwar]

which feat do you refer? I can't find it in the PHB2

[Frosty]

Adaptive flanker makes it easier for you to flank because you count as present in adjacent spaces as well for the purposes of determining flanking status.

Actually, it's not just adjacent. it's all sqaures that you threaten, you can count as being in that square to determine if you are flanking or not. Great with Spiked chains.

[lsfreak]

One level in swordsage gets you Island of Blades, which lets you flank any creature that both you and an ally is adjacent to, so you don't have to spend a feat and you get all the other benefits of swordsage. It's not quite as good as the two flanking feats, but a hell of a lot less resource-intensive, and if you're TWF'ing (I'm assuming you are) then you're already one of the single most feat-heavy builds.

If you're in a solo campaign, however, I'm not sure you can count on flanking. Solo, I'd go a sneak-attack-heavy build with pounce to try and land as many attacks in the opening round as possible (TWF + pounce + haste + mongoose maneuvers), then go invisible (however you want to do that, Invisible Fist or the Cloak of Deception maneuver or whatever) and pounce again the next round.