3.5 Scout

[azule74]

So we are about to start up a campaign in 3.5 and I am looking to play the Scout. I know from the description that there are going to be lots of undead, and I am wondering what the best build for a 5th level Scout is going to be. Does anyone know what the feat name, and book it is in that allows you to change one stat for another in your savings throws? I am looking to bump my Dex as much as possible. Suggestions for feats and such are greatly welcomed.

[lsfreak]

X stat to Y bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889)

Also, obligatory reference to Scout3/Ranger17 using Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel). Gets full Favored Enemy, full Skirmish, and ranger spells. Then use Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor) to get wizard spells in addition to ranger spells. EDIT: Oh, missed that there's lots of undead. Swift Hunter allows you to Skirmish undead even though they're usually immune.

Improved Skirmish (CScoundrel again) gets you an extra 2d6/+1 on skirmish when you move 20 feet.

[Curmudgeon]

The feats you really want aren't available, because they're Epic: Dexterous Fortitude [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#dexterousFortitude) and Dexterous Will [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#dexterousWill).

[Kroy]

The feats you really want aren't available, because they're Epic: Dexterous Fortitude [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#dexterousFortitude) and Dexterous Will [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#dexterousWill).

A kobold could.

[Guancyto]

A kobold could.

Kill it with fire! :smallmad:

Also, Swift Hunter is basically a necessity to be effective in an undead-heavy campaign. Make your highest Favored Enemy the Undead and turn your greatest weakness into your greatest strength!

[Curmudgeon]

A kobold could. Not at level 5. You still need Dex 25 and the slippery mind class feature. You're not getting both of those until you're near-Epic level anyway.

[sofawall]

18+2 racial+1 HD+4 item for dex, and slippery mind can be gotten at level 5, so with WBL breakers (for the +4 item), level 5.


Near-epic my ass.

[Random NPC]

Also, obligatory reference to Scout3/Ranger17 using Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel). Gets full Favored Enemy, full Skirmish, and ranger spells. Then use Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor) to get wizard spells in addition to ranger spells. EDIT: Oh, missed that there's lots of undead. Swift Hunter allows you to Skirmish undead even though they're usually immune.

Improved Skirmish (CScoundrel again) gets you an extra 2d6/+1 on skirmish when you move 20 feet.

Agree!:smallwink:

[Haedrian]

The feats you really want aren't available, because they're Epic: Dexterous Fortitude [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#dexterousFortitude) and Dexterous Will [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#dexterousWill).

I know epic levels can do some pretty weird things.

Like balancing on clouds...

But the entire CONCEPT of "DODGE THE POISON IN MY BLOODSTREAM" I find very stupid.

[Curmudgeon]

I know epic levels can do some pretty weird things.

But the entire CONCEPT of "DODGE THE POISON IN MY BLOODSTREAM" I find very stupid. No, it's DODGE SO FAST THE POISON NEEDLE DOESN'T HIT A VEIN. It's just that the final check to determine how well you dodged may come a minute later, to build suspense.

[Philistine]

18+2 racial+1 HD+4 item for dex, and slippery mind can be gotten at level 5, so with WBL breakers (for the +4 item), level 5.


Near-epic my ass.

Except that temporary bonuses to ability scores - such as those from items - don't count toward meeting prerequisites.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Except that temporary bonuses to ability scores - such as those from items - don't count toward meeting prerequisites.Actually, they do, but only as long as you have the item.

[Kroy]

Not at level 5. You still need Dex 25 and the slippery mind class feature. You're not getting both of those until you're near-Epic level anyway.

I meant with a partial Pun-Pun build that abuses that obscure rule about epic feats. Besides, Pun-Pun can do anything. Pun-Pun 1+ Scout 4 is not a bad build.

Edit: On topic:

X stat to Y bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889)

Also, obligatory reference to Scout3/Ranger17 using Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel). Gets full Favored Enemy, full Skirmish, and ranger spells. Then use Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor) to get wizard spells in addition to ranger spells. EDIT: Oh, missed that there's lots of undead. Swift Hunter allows you to Skirmish undead even though they're usually immune.

Improved Skirmish (CScoundrel again) gets you an extra 2d6/+1 on skirmish when you move 20 feet.

I actually recommend Scout 4/Ranger 16 instead.

[Cheesegear]

Actually, they do, but only as long as you have the item.

Seconded. You lose the item, you lose all the feats that you no longer apply for. And, no. You don't get to retrain lost feats unless the DM gives you downtime as per normal.

And I know from personal experience that if I have something good (like an item that allows me access to awesome feats), my DM will try and take it away from me.


I actually recommend Scout 4/Ranger 16 instead.

I recommend Ranger 4/Scout 16. My favourite build in the whole game. Make sure you have the Errata that says Scouts have Disable Device as a Class Skill.

[Frosty]

If you think you'll be facing more crit-immune enemies, then getting more Ranger levels is good because of choosing more Favored Enemies. Plus you get spells. What does having more Scout get you? Bonus feats?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If you think you'll be facing more crit-immune enemies, then getting more Ranger levels is good because of choosing more Favored Enemies. Plus you get spells. What does having more Scout get you? Bonus feats?Swift Hunter progresses Favred Enemy and Skirmish whether you're a Scout or a Ranger.

[only1doug]

Seconded. You lose the item, you lose all the feats that you no longer apply for. And, no. You don't get to retrain lost feats unless the DM gives you downtime as per normal.

slightly incorrect: You lose access to the benefits that the feat (and the benfits of any feats that it functions as a prerequisite of) until such time as you again have have the necessary prerequisites to enable the feat.

example: Power Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack) requires Str 13+ to activate and it forms a pre-requisite to the cleave-great cleave chain.

You cannot take the power attack feat unless you have regular access to 13+ strength (needed to train, GMs discretion but needs at least 1hr /day when I GM)
Lets imagine that for some reason you had a 11 str barbarian with a +2 Str item and chose power attack, cleave and great cleave as your feats (lets Call him Thud the Unstartable). If Thud's Str item is stolen he can no longer power attack or cleave. If Thud Rages then he again meets the prerequisites and he can power attack, cleave and great cleave as normal until rage expires. If one of Thud's allies casts a Str buff on him then again he can access the benefits of his feats (until the buff runs out).

[Frosty]

Swift Hunter progresses Favred Enemy and Skirmish whether you're a Scout or a Ranger.

Ahh true. But more BAB is always good. So you can get that 4th arrow for Greater Manyshot faster.

[Person_Man]

A strait Ranger with maxed out Favored Enemy Undead and Favored Enemy feats like Wise to Your Ways (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Wise_to_Your_Ways,all), Nemesis (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Nemesis,all), and Favored Power Attack (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Favored_Power_Attack,all) might be superior for your needs. You'd still have plenty of Skills, and you'd get superior BAB, damage, Saves, and ability to locate Undead through any barrier. There are also a ton of interesting ranger variants (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-906113), that grant goodies like Trapfinding or Wild Shape. The only thing you'd really miss out on is Uncanny Dodge (meaningless if you have high Initiative) and Evasion (until 9th level). Everything else a Scout does can be mimicked by magic items or feats.

You might also want to consider a a Skullclan Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56795) build.

[Telonius]

I'm away from my books at the moment - do Truedeath Crystals from Magic Item Compendium work for Skirmish as well as Sneak Attack?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm away from my books at the moment - do Truedeath Crystals from Magic Item Compendium work for Skirmish as well as Sneak Attack?

Should, as it affects precision-based damage, not specifically sneak attacks. However, it only works for that weapon. Wand sheath with Gravestrike is superior.

[Frosty]

Should, as it affects precision-based damage, not specifically sneak attacks. However, it only works for that weapon. Wand sheath with Gravestrike is superior.

Unless you regularly use multiple weapons, it's fine to use the crystal.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm away from my books at the moment - do Truedeath Crystals from Magic Item Compendium work for Skirmish as well as Sneak Attack? Nope. It's specific to sneak attack (and critical hits), and not other types of precision damage:
Greater: As the lesser crystal, and the weapon can deliver sneak attacks and critical hits against undead as if they were living creatures.

[Frosty]

Technically true. Ask your GM to houserule otherwise for great justice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Unless you regularly use multiple weapons, it's fine to use the crystal.

Most precision-based damage dealers use TWF to maximize potential. Also, the Crystal only works on Undead. Ever. Wheras you can Wand Gravestrike, Golemstrike, and Vinestrike to be able to affect just about everything that is immune to precision-based damage. Combined. For less than the cost of that crystal.

Of course, if you take Scout4/Ranger16 with Swift Hunter, you can take as your favored enemies Undead, Constructs, Oozes, and Plants, and get the same effect for free.

[Frosty]

Most precision-based damage dealers use TWF to maximize potential. Also, the Crystal only works on Undead. Ever. Wheras you can Wand Gravestrike, Golemstrike, and Vinestrike to be able to affect just about everything that is immune to precision-based damage. Combined. For less than the cost of that crystal.

Of course, if you take Scout4/Ranger16 with Swift Hunter, you can take as your favored enemies Undead, Constructs, Oozes, and Plants, and get the same effect for free.

Exactly. And screw TWF. When are you ever going to make a full-round attack when you need to move 20 ft to activate Improved Skirmish anyways? Go with Greater Manyshot to shoot your 4 arrows as a standard action.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Exactly. And screw TWF. When are you ever going to make a full-round attack when you need to move 20 ft to activate Improved Skirmish anyways? Go with Greater Manyshot to shoot your 4 arrows as a standard action.Travel Devotion. Or Pounce. Or Boots of Hustle. There's a thread somewhere on here that lists ways to activate Skirmish and still full-attack.

[Frosty]

Travel Devotion. Or Pounce. Or Boots of Hustle. There's a thread somewhere on here that lists ways to activate Skirmish and still full-attack.

A lot of DMs I know say they won't allow Complete Cheese (their words) in their games. Also, if you take Travel Devotion, you're only getting it one time a day. Unless you somehow get access to turn attempts? Or do you wish to waste multiple feats on Travel Devotion? Pounce requires dipping into barbarian, and won't work every turn because you must charge.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

A lot of DMs I know say they won't allow Complete Cheese (their words) in their games. Also, if you take Travel Devotion, you're only getting it one time a day. Unless you somehow get access to turn attempts? Or do you wish to waste multiple feats on Travel Devotion? Pounce requires dipping into barbarian, and won't work every turn because you must charge.First off, point out the fact that they allow CDiv, which is by far the most broken Complete. Yes, many of the methods require a dip, which is unfortunate, but TWF Swift Hunters deal a lot more damage than GManyshot ones. And yeah, you'll still be weaker than a halfway-competent Rogue. :smallannoyed:

[Frosty]

First off, point out the fact that they allow CDiv, which is by far the most broken Complete. Yes, many of the methods require a dip, which is unfortunate, but TWF Swift Hunters deal a lot more damage than GManyshot ones. And yeah, you'll still be weaker than a halfway-competent Rogue. :smallannoyed:

To be honest, if I wanna TWF, I'll go Rogue. I only go Scout for ranged precision attacks that don't require flat-footing.

[lsfreak]

Travel Devotion. Or Pounce. Or Boots of Hustle. There's a thread somewhere on here that lists ways to activate Skirmish and still full-attack.

Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358)

[Random NPC]

To be honest, if I wanna TWF, I'll go Rogue. I only go Scout for ranged precision attacks that don't require flat-footing.

Quoted For Great Justice.

Don't TWF Skirmish.

[Person_Man]

Skirmish: +0.875 per level (+1d6 every 4 levels)
Sneak Attack: +1.75 per level (1d6 ever 2 levels)
Most damage dealing spells: +1.75 per level (1d6 every 2 levels)
Power Attack: +2 per BAB (penalizes To-Hit or AC with Shock Trooper)
Leap Attack: +4 per BAB (need Pounce, same penalties as PA)

All of these can be boosted various ways. In particular, magic is easy to break, and Power Attack/Leap Attack can be multiplied multiple different ways. But the base math is generally a good indicator.

Now I love the Scout, and my favorite character of all time was a strait Kobold Scout with the lowest stats in the party. But it's worth pointing out that if your goal is dealing damage, then Skirmish is one of the worst ways to do it. Scouts are good because they have excellent Skills (though no UMD), Evasion/Uncanny Dodge, and a bunch of mobility, stealth, and detection related class features. Skirmish is just a nifty extra to prevent them from being useless in combat.

[Frosty]

It's too bad Skirmish damage only activates on your turn, or else they'd be kick-ass spell-disrupters.

[9mm]

the first trick about scout is how do you want to play, are you a pot shotter who is running around the edge of the map, or a mobile harrasser? What weapon do you want to use?

[Curmudgeon]

The thing about Scouts is that, thanks to multiclass feats, the best Scout is usually something that's mostly not Scout. With Swift Hunter you want 3 levels of Scout and lots of Ranger. With Swift Ambusher you want 3 levels of Scout and lots of Rogue. Ranger gives you better BAB, and spells. Rogue gives you sneak attack, and (arguably) better class features. And then there's the fact that most ways to move 10' and full attack require other classes.

But at level 5 there's not a big difference.