question about 4th.

[Mystic Muse]

when you get a magic item with an enhancement. say +6 does this just mean you add six to die and damage rolls or does your number of damage die increase?

[erikun]

+6 to attacks, +6 to damage

So an attack that deals 5[W] with a longsword (1d8) deals 5d8+6 damage. (plus other bonuses, like from ability scores)

[Mystic Muse]

okay. now I'm wondering just HOW somebody can kill an evil god in 4th. or most other high level enemies.

[Alteran]

There are a lot of ways. I'm not sure if you want full strategies (that requires knowledge of the party and enemy in question), but it often boils down to buffing the party, debuffing the enemy, and the dealing the damage to bring them down. If you actually play at higher levels, you'll find that damage scales well. In fact, I'd say it can be too easy for PCs to get extremely high damage in some cases. This is especially true at higher levels.

[erikun]

A greataxe deals 1d12 damage. Add +8 due to strength, +3 due to Weapon Focus, and +6 due to enchantments.

The standard attacks at epic tier all deal 2[W], so you're hitting for 2d12+17 a hit.

Most high level once-per-day attack, though, deal far more. Most deal 5[W] to 7[W], thus hitting for around 7d12+17 each turn. This isn't counting the once-per-encounter attack, which you get back every fight and deal around 4[W] by then.

Also, some of the solos in the first book apparently had... rather inflated HP values, meaning some fights ended with everyone surrounding the survivor and wailing at it with 2[W] attacks. Hopefully, that little problem has been fixed with MM2....

[RTGoodman]

Don't forget that, in addition to the enhancement bonuses to attack and damage, magic weapons/implements ALSO give you bonus damage dice on critical hits. Most are +1d6 per plus (so a +6 weapon gives you +6d6 on a crit), but some give d8s or even d10s/d12s, I think.


okay. now I'm wondering just HOW somebody can kill an evil god in 4th. or most other high level enemies.

Well, most of the gods ARE almost unkillable because, well, they're GODS.

If you're going to do it, though, you'd make the attempt by doing a few things. First, make sure you can hit. Mostly that requires just being a high level, but you should almost definitely get the Implement/Weapon/Focused Expertise feat for your weapon/implement and make sure you have an appropriately-level magic item.

Second, impose status effects. Stunning, for instance, is GREAT, and even better if it's (save ends). If you can apply penalties to their save vs. the conditions (orb wizard, magic items, feats, etc.), you're golden. Keeping high-level enemies from acting or, at least, from getting to you at full strength, is VERY important.

Next, damage has to come from somewhere, and that's where your Strikers come in. Powers that do 7[W] + Stat damage, combined with your means of extra damage (SA, Hunter's Quarry, bigger weapons, etc.), possibilities of crits (which MAX your damage), additional dice of damage from magic weapons, feats that add situational damage, buffs from Leaders, and all that can REALLY pump up your damage. A 30th-level Barbarian, for instance, could conceivably hit for 14d6+24 damage with a Daily power, and then spend an action point to use Rage strike for another 16d6+24. And you've got several Daily powers that do 5[W]-7[W] damage, and Encounter powers doing 2[W]-4[W] damage, I think. WITHOUT damage buffs from your Leader.

Last, stay alive. Defenders with high defenses help out (especially Fighters, since they're the best at, you know, defending) and Leaders dealing out ridiculous buffs and healing keep everyone up.

It's certainly not easy, but in general it works.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There are a lot of ways. I'm not sure if you want full strategies (that requires knowledge of the party and enemy in question), but it often boils down to buffing the party, debuffing the enemy, and the dealing the damage to bring them down. If you actually play at higher levels, you'll find that damage scales well. In fact, I'd say it can be too easy for PCs to get extremely high damage in some cases. This is especially true at higher levels.Or just Orbizard [ab]use. :smallwink:

[Gralamin]

There are a lot of ways. I'm not sure if you want full strategies (that requires knowledge of the party and enemy in question), but it often boils down to buffing the party, debuffing the enemy, and the dealing the damage to bring them down. If you actually play at higher levels, you'll find that damage scales well. In fact, I'd say it can be too easy for PCs to get extremely high damage in some cases. This is especially true at higher levels.

The problem with killing Evil Deities is Discorporation. All they have to do is nullify the person nullifying their invulnerability. For Example, Vecna killing the person wielding the Sword Of Kas before he is bloodied.

[-Cor-]

Don't forget Brutal weapons... they're almost a must have for a striker, but great for anyone.

I like to think of damage not in xdx + x, but in damage range expressions. A +1 2d6 weapon wielded by someone with say a 20 STR would deal 8-18 damage for a parenthetical average of 13, but a different weapon with the same damage (2d6) and the Brutal 2 property does 12-18 damage for a parenthetical average of 15. That 2 extra average damage sometimes makes all the difference and gets more important when dealing with 5[w] and 7[w] powers.

That same damage (2d6) with a 3[w] power for instance does 12-36 damage normally, but Brutal 2 bumps it up to 24-36.

High Crit is also a good property.

[Gralamin]

Don't forget Brutal weapons... they're almost a must have for a striker, but great for anyone.

I like to think of damage not in xdx + x, but in damage range expressions. A +1 2d6 weapon wielded by someone with say a 20 STR would deal 8-18 damage for a parenthetical average of 13, but a different weapon with the same damage (2d6) and the Brutal 2 property does 12-18 damage for a parenthetical average of 15. That 2 extra average damage sometimes makes all the difference and gets more important when dealing with 5[w] and 7[w] powers.

That same damage (2d6) with a 3[w] power for instance does 12-36 damage normally, but Brutal 2 bumps it up to 24-36.

High Crit is also a good property.


A Brutal 1 2d6 weapon doesn't exist, but is the equivalent of a 2d5+2 weapon.
A Brutal 2 1d12 weapon is the equivalent of a 1d10+2 weapon.
Brutal is a fun property, and defiantly has promise (Especially with Vorpal), but its damage contributions are less then you may think.

[Sir Homeslice]

A Brutal 1 2d6 weapon doesn't exist

The Mordenkrad would like a word with you.

[RTGoodman]

Brutal is a fun property, and defiantly has promise (Especially with Vorpal), but its damage contributions are less then you may think.

If you can get the (admittedly broken) Oversized trait* (Bugbear still has it), the Executioner's Axe, unless I'm mistaken, becomes 2d6 Brutal 2. If you make it Vorpal, you get to reroll 1s and 2s until they come up as something higher, and you get to reroll 6s and ADD stuff. I don't know how you'd figure out the average damage on that (assuming it all works together), but it seems like it'd be quite a bit.

*Or, I guess, the Eternal Defender ED's power to wield Large weapons.

[Kurald Galain]

okay. now I'm wondering just HOW somebody can kill an evil god in 4th. or most other high level enemies.
If your question is how you plow through the god's 1000+ hit points when you're really not doing all that much more damage, then the answer is that yes, fighting big solo monsters can get tedious.

However, note that this +6 damage applies to both hits of e.g. a Twin Strike (the ranger at-will), and so does the +6 from bracers, and most other bonuses.

[Mystic Muse]

and I forgot about the rogue's ability that as soon as a melee or ranged attack targets him he can send it back on the attacker. in other words goodbye orcus:smalltongue:

[Artanis]

Don't forget Brutal weapons... they're almost a must have for a striker, but great for anyone.

Depends on the weapon. Brutal adds average damage per die, nothing more. In the end, it all comes down to the weapons on an item-by-item basis: if a brutal weapon is incredibly good, it's because it's an awesome item that just so happen to be Brutal, NOT because Brutal inherently makes it awesome.

[Mando Knight]

Mordenkrads, however, are a must for any Dwarf wielding a two-handed weapon.

[Grommen]

I generaly find that whinning to the DM long enough, results in him tossing up his hands and ending infrustration. That normaly kills gods too. Just pester the DM.

[Mystic Muse]

I generaly find that whinning to the DM long enough, results in him tossing up his hands and ending infrustration. That normaly kills gods too. Just pester the DM.

I often find that will get you banned from any good DM's game.

[Burley]

Cerially? Cause it's my experience that a good DM tries to make the game fun for his players, instead of just kicking them outta the group... :smallsmile:

[Yakk]

Thunderball Swordmage using at-will area power against a single deity.
+0.5 (previous round hit)+3(focus)+6 (implement)+8 (stat)+6(offhand implement) = +24 damage, +3d8 (3[W]) = 37.5 damage Crits on a 19-20 for an average of (say) +6d8+10.5 damage.

37.5 *.2 + 37.5 = 45 average per hit damage. And knocks prone etc.

And the swordmage gets to use the above as a minor once/encounter, and gets to repeat the attack if the god attacks the swordmage, or if the god attacks anyone else.

So over 6 rounds, the swordmage gets 13 such attacks. If 6.5 hit on average, that is ~292 damage put out just by a defender, using nothing but his at-will attack. Oh, and all of the damage is actually being pumped out in a burst 4 radius. And knocking the god prone an average of once per round, and sliding the god through hostile terrain like the swordmage was playing hockey.

This is from a build optimised to do area control and defence, attacking a single target with AOE powers. Single-target attackers make the above swordmage thunderball build look like a pansy.

So no, it isn't hard to reach the point where you can take out a 1000+ HP target in 6 rounds as a full party.

And if the fight is hard (say against a level 35 god), you are probably going to be pulling out daily powers, which do yet more damage.

[TheEmerged]

/puts on his Rules Lawyer suit

As others point out, you add the direct value not extra dice -- although many/most magic weapons have an added property of adding a dice or two on critical hits.

Technically, the enhancement bonus is added to whatever the item SAYS to add the enhancement bonus to. Take the Dwarven Armor (PHB pg 229), you add the enhancement to AC and as an item bonus to Endurance checks. While I don't think any exist yet, you could have a weapon that added to something else (say for example, an Intimidation check).

[Panda-s1]

Cerially? Cause it's my experience that a good DM tries to make the game fun for his players, instead of just kicking them outta the group... :smallsmile:

And in my experience a good player knows to not whine at the DM after he says no, before the other players get annoyed and kick him out of the group before the DM. Making a game fun goes both ways, I'm sorry.

[Burley]

And in my experience a good player knows to not whine at the DM after he says no, before the other players get annoyed and kick him out of the group before the DM. Making a game fun goes both ways, I'm sorry.

I was commenting on just the "Good DMs kick out players." Whiny people grind me gears. Almost as bad as that tallyman... Tallying me bananas. :smallfurious:

[Tengu_temp]

However, note that this +6 damage applies to both hits of e.g. a Twin Strike (the ranger at-will), and so does the +6 from bracers, and most other bonuses.

What bracers? Mighty Striking? They only increase the damage of your basic melee attacks.

[Arcane Copycat]

What bracers? Mighty Striking? They only increase the damage of your basic melee attacks.

Iron Armbands of Power, from the AV.

Also, just pick up Gauntlets of Destruction, any melee damage roll you rereoll all 1's until you show something else as a 1, and hey presto, instand Brutal 1 weapon for anything.