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gabado
2009-07-09, 01:32 AM
People have told me about psions before but with never much detail, I am curious why so many people avoid playing them.

I am also wondering about making a scion, what books do I need and any useful tipps you might have.

erikun
2009-07-09, 01:39 AM
Most DMs I've ran across just don't feel that Psionics fit into their campaign, and thus don't allow any psionic classes into their games. Note that you'll want stuff like Crystal Capacitors and Dorjes in your world if you have Psions, which some people feel conflicts with magical equipment in some way.

No clue about Scion, unless you're talking about the White Wolf product. :smallwink:

RTGoodman
2009-07-09, 01:43 AM
People have told me about psions before but with never much detail, I am curious why so many people avoid playing them.

For the most part, there are a few reasons why people avoid Psionics. First and foremost, I think, is because they haven't read all the rules and miss the most important one - YOU CAN ONLY SPEND A NUMBER OF POWER POINTS ON ONE POWER EQUAL TO YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL, AND NO MORE.* Many see the powers that deal +1d6 damage per extra power point used to augment the power and assume you can blow all of your power points for the day on one "nova," but it doesn't work that way.

Second, Psionics was pretty broken in older editions, and it still carries that stigma despite being, well, more balanced that normal Vancian spellcasting.

Third, it's a different system, both mechanically and flavor-wise. Some people don't want to learn a new system. Others don't think Psionics fit in a pseudo-medieval fantasy world.


I am also wondering about making a scion, what books do I need and any useful tipps you might have.

The rules for Psionics in general are in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. That's all you really need. Conveniently, all of those rules are ALSO in the System Reference Document. HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) is the Psion class, and from there you can find most of what you need just by looking around the Psionics section.



*Barring certain feats or PrCs or whatever.

Sendal
2009-07-09, 01:44 AM
DnD already has a magic system. Some people feel its unneccesary to introduce a completly separate magic system that works on different rules to an already complex game.

Its not necisarily a bad idea to play a wizard, and just say its the power of his mind that does things, and not the power of the weave of magic.

Satyr
2009-07-09, 02:25 AM
I found the psionic system superior in every way to the standard magic system. So, if I ran standard D&D games, I would almost always take the psionics as the standard system of supernatural powers and either make the standard magic system obsolete or a very exotic alternative.
The problem is not the rules for psionics, its the felt ambiente of it, which is often not seen as that much of a fantasy game specific category.
And the other problem is that there was only very little support, if any, for the psionics rules from official side, besides the Complete Psion, which was a sub-par book, even for the low standards i apply for WOTC books.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-09, 05:04 AM
even for the low standards i apply for WOTC books.

I think applying any standards to WotC books is giving them too much credit.

Zeta Kai
2009-07-09, 05:41 AM
DnD already has a magic system. Some people feel its unneccesary to introduce a completly separate magic system that works on different rules to an already complex game.

Agreed & seconded. I remember that my initial aversion to psionics was due to this. I didn't have time to learn an entirely new "magic" system just so one of my players could run a vaguely-conceived character idea that barely fit within my setting's flavor. I had the run a refluffed sorcerer, & it worked fine. Later, I finally got around to skimming the EPH, & found it to be a pretty good book. But psionics works best as an all-or-nothing system, IMO. Mix-&-match psionic/magic crossover insanity is best left to DM's who are truly prepared for it. I remember one game I played in had normal magic, psionics, incarnum, & a couple of other things; it was a nonsensical disaster, & only lasted three sessions (including a CharGen session), but it was kinda fun.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-09, 06:09 AM
Third, it's a different system, both mechanically and flavor-wise. Some people don't want to learn a new system. Others don't think Psionics fit in a pseudo-medieval fantasy world.
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It depends from what you mean for medieval fantasy... you can fit very well psionics with OAdv adding a Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20011019a) and refluffing secrets of Sarlona.

And about the magic system.. I like it a lot, but I like a lot other sub-systems, too, so it's cool, say, have a divine spellcaster praying in the morning, a wiz reading a book, a psion with power points, a fighter and a warlock with at-wills..

Saph
2009-07-09, 06:21 AM
Two main things, in my experience:

1) People don't want to do the work of learning a new system,
2) Pretty much everything psionics can do, magic can do already.

From a DMing point of view, there are also various minor annoyances of having psionic and magical characters in the same party - if you put something psionic in, the spellcasters can't relate to it, and if you put something magic in, the psions can't relate to it. It's just an extra layer of complexity.

- Saph

Rhiannon87
2009-07-09, 08:00 AM
I think one of the real issues is determining magic/psionic transparency. Life becomes infinitely easier for a DM (and for players, honestly) if you determine that psions just use magic in a different way and manifest different abilities, rather than drawing on a completely separate energy field or what have you. Because then you just make things like dispel magic and dispel psionics do the same thing, no matter if the thing being dispelled was created by an arcane, divine, or psionic caster.

If you treat psions as a completely separate system, then it gets pretty obnoxious, largely because if you make psions rare, the one psion in your party becomes extremely powerful. They're immune to anti-magic spells, can ignore SR, etc.

In my opinion, psions are fun to play as an interesting variant to normal spellcasting. I'm not quite sure why, but arcane and divine casters have never really appealed to me as a player, but I've got a psion all ready to go for a game that should be starting in a month or so. Something about psionics is just much more interesting to me than other magic.

Indon
2009-07-09, 08:04 AM
For the most part, there are a few reasons why people avoid Psionics. First and foremost, I think, is because they haven't read all the rules and miss the most important one - YOU CAN ONLY SPEND A NUMBER OF POWER POINTS ON ONE POWER EQUAL TO YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL, AND NO MORE.* Many see the powers that deal +1d6 damage per extra power point used to augment the power and assume you can blow all of your power points for the day on one "nova," but it doesn't work that way.

The one Psion I've ever seen seriously played in a 3.x game had a feat which allowed him to seriously overchannel his powers (chaotic something, it wasn't guaranteed to work) - he was big on the nova blasting, could only pull off his big blast a few times a day but it was devastating if he pulled it off.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-09, 08:06 AM
If you treat psions as a completely separate system, then it gets pretty obnoxious, largely because if you make psions rare, the one psion in your party becomes extremely powerful. They're immune to anti-magic spells, can ignore SR, etc.



It's very easy to fix, you have only to say where the things break. As an example, Psionics and Magic, in my campaing cannot dispel each other, so, depending from the encounter, will be a psion or a wizard the one thatmust dispel the evil caster or manifester.

On the other hand, if a creature has SR, has PR too. And AMF chenges to "must be Ex to work, princess. Stay aside and call the fighter and the rogue".

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-09, 08:12 AM
I think one of the real issues is determining magic/psionic transparency. Life becomes infinitely easier for a DM (and for players, honestly) if you determine that psions just use magic in a different way and manifest different abilities, rather than drawing on a completely separate energy field or what have you. Because then you just make things like dispel magic and dispel psionics do the same thing, no matter if the thing being dispelled was created by an arcane, divine, or psionic caster.

If you treat psions as a completely separate system, then it gets pretty obnoxious, largely because if you make psions rare, the one psion in your party becomes extremely powerful. They're immune to anti-magic spells, can ignore SR, etc.

So what you're saying is, psionics is only good and balanced when you play by the default rules presented in the book?

You don't say.

kamikasei
2009-07-09, 08:27 AM
So what you're saying is, psionics is only good and balanced when you play by the default rules presented in the book?

For some reason people seem to very, very commonly either ignore that part or read it backwards somehow. I don't know if it's a genuine problem with understanding the rules or if it's a sign of unscrupulous players misleading their DMs (for that matter, the same question could be asked of the per-power-PP-limit error).

Eldariel
2009-07-09, 08:29 AM
For some reason people seem to very, very commonly either ignore that part or read it backwards somehow. I don't know if it's a genuine problem with understanding the rules or if it's a sign of unscrupulous players misleading their DMs (for that matter, the same question could be asked of the per-power-PP-limit error).

It's much the same as why every second person claims Core is perfectly balanced, even though it just takes a cursory glance over the spell lists and martial abilities to figure out that's not the case. My theory is that people just read enough about the rules until they think they understand the system enough to play it and then stop reading.

jokey665
2009-07-09, 08:37 AM
The players in my normal group don't really 'get' Psionics, but the DM is used to it. Or at least he's used to it enough that he lets me play a Psion even if I'm a powergamer and my Psion is stronger than the rest of the party combined. I <3 Psionics. :smallbiggrin:

There aren't many Psionic items in the world, the DM gave me the opportunity to get a Torc of Power Preservation but I opted for the +6 Int headband that was also a choice instead. That's really been the only one I can think of, but I function just fine using normal magical items for most of my needs. I do have a Third Eye (Penetrate) and Boots of Skating, but I chose those at character creation.

ghost_warlock
2009-07-09, 08:39 AM
The one Psion I've ever seen seriously played in a 3.x game had a feat which allowed him to seriously overchannel his powers (chaotic something, it wasn't guaranteed to work) - he was big on the nova blasting, could only pull off his big blast a few times a day but it was devastating if he pulled it off.

That sounds more like a wilder...but it could have been a psion with levels of the anarchic initiate (?) in CompPsi.

Indon
2009-07-09, 08:42 AM
It might be that anarchic thingy.

All I know is, he rolled something to determine how effective his power would be - if he rolled badly, he got half the dice, if he rolled well, up to twice the dice.

He rolled some big handfuls of dice that campaign.

Eldariel
2009-07-09, 08:43 AM
That sounds more like a wilder...but it could have been a psion with levels of the anarchic initiate (?) in CompPsi.

By the name, it's probably an Anarchic Initiate. Their ability is called Chaotic Surge vs. Wilder's Wild Surge.

Cyclocone
2009-07-09, 09:04 AM
It's much the same as why every second person claims Core is perfectly balanced, even though it just takes a cursory glance over the spell lists and martial abilities to figure out that's not the case. My theory is that people just read enough about the rules until they think they understand the system enough to play it and then stop reading.

Yeah, not everyone realize just how far the scales tip in 3e.

Some people i know didn't bother looking too closely at the Wizard's spells. Instead, they looked at the Wizard and thought: "hmm, so, this guy is powerless without his spellbook, powerless if he can't talk, powerless, if he didn't prepare the right spell etc... clearly he's very limited in what he can do, and rather easy to defeat.":smalleek:

Then they looked at the Psion (again, failing epicly to give the class more than a cursory glance) and went: "OMFG!!!, this guy doesn't need items or components to function -and he can use 9th levels all day! Psionics is sooo broken!":smallsigh:

Indon
2009-07-09, 09:09 AM
Some people i know didn't bother looking too closely at the Wizard's spells. Instead, they looked at the Wizard and thought: "hmm, so, this guy is powerless without his spellbook, powerless if he can't talk, powerless, if he didn't prepare the right spell etc... clearly he's very limited in what he can do, and rather easy to defeat.":smalleek:

Then they looked at the Psion (again, failing epicly to give the class more than a cursory glance) and went: "OMFG!!!, this guy doesn't need items or components to function -and he can use 9th levels all day! Psionics is sooo broken!":smallsigh:

And unless the psion/caster player in question has encyclopedic knowledge of a large number of spells/psionic effects, that's basically true.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 10:14 AM
For some reason people seem to very, very commonly either ignore that part or read it backwards somehow. I don't know if it's a genuine problem with understanding the rules or if it's a sign of unscrupulous players misleading their DMs (for that matter, the same question could be asked of the per-power-PP-limit error).

It's most likely due to the fact that magic/psionics transparency is a new rule in 3e--all prior editions used Psionics Is Different by default, which is part of the reason why it was considered so broken in those editions.

Tetsubo 57
2009-07-09, 10:32 AM
3.5 psionics is the best point based magic system I've ever seen. If you use the suggested transparency rules for magic & psionics things stay balanced with the Vancian system.

I blather about it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK6z1dq54LI

Morty
2009-07-09, 10:49 AM
I think applying any standards to WotC books is giving them too much credit.

You know, we all get it that you don't like D&D. You don't have to repeat it in threads that have completely nothing to do with it.

Anyway, on topic: I don't use psionics either. First and foremonst, its mechanics are bland, boring and uninspired. I mean, power points? Pffft. I like Vancian casting because it's unique, and I've seen power points dozens of times already and never, ever liked them. Since I don't like the flavor either, there's absolutely no reason for me to introduce it. And I find it very, very annoying when people imply that I simply don't understand the rules or am generally too stupid to enjoy it.

Kyeudo
2009-07-09, 11:25 AM
Anyway, on topic: I don't use psionics either. First and foremonst, its mechanics are bland, boring and uninspired. I mean, power points? Pffft. I like Vancian casting because it's unique, and I've seen power points dozens of times already and never, ever liked them. Since I don't like the flavor either, there's absolutely no reason for me to introduce it. And I find it very, very annoying when people imply that I simply don't understand the rules or am generally too stupid to enjoy it.

I thought psionics sucked too, until I started using the Eberron Campaign Setting. There, psionics are an integral part of one quarter of the setting. People often call psionics sci-fi, but Eberron has them done right. Sure the power is named Energy Blast, but the effect was learned through long hours of meditation and introspection. The threats you face as a psion are drawn from the plane of dreams and the realms of madness, not the product of a robot factory (can you say golems?) or aliens from outer space.

Morty
2009-07-09, 11:40 AM
I thought psionics sucked too, until I started using the Eberron Campaign Setting. There, psionics are an integral part of one quarter of the setting. People often call psionics sci-fi, but Eberron has them done right. Sure the power is named Energy Blast, but the effect was learned through long hours of meditation and introspection. The threats you face as a psion are drawn from the plane of dreams and the realms of madness, not the product of a robot factory (can you say golems?) or aliens from outer space.

Given my feelings on Eberron, it doesn't help much...:smallwink:
That said, psionic as presented in D&D can be made to fit into a fantasy world. I just see no reason to bother. If I like the mechanics, I would do it. But I don't.

Eldariel
2009-07-09, 12:06 PM
Given my feelings on Eberron, it doesn't help much...:smallwink:
That said, psionic as presented in D&D can be made to fit into a fantasy world. I just see no reason to bother. If I like the mechanics, I would do it. But I don't.

Heh, it's funny, I have the exact same feeling about vancian casting. Every decent CRPG uses it ('cause they're D&D based), old Final Fantasies use it, etc. Spell point system, on the other hand, is mostly present in SNES-era and newer JRPGs.

But yeah, Psionics are really much deeper than any spell point based system I've ever used, which really helps me like them (due to the way Metapsionics, Augmentation, Overchanneling and Psionic Focus work); there's a real feel of channeling a variety of internal energies to your powers and altering the base powers you know to create the exact power you need for a situation; manipulating living magic rather than a set number of spells/powers. That's just me though.

Draz74
2009-07-09, 01:07 PM
And I find it very, very annoying when people imply that I simply don't understand the rules or am generally too stupid to enjoy it.

Yeah, well, don't take it personally, because you're a rare exception to the general trends. That exception being someone who dislikes psionics for a perfectly valid (but very strange) reason, i.e. actually strongly liking the Vancian system.

(My own feelings are more similar to Eldariel's.)

Quietus
2009-07-09, 01:16 PM
Psionics are certainly an INTERESTING system.. but I choose not to use it, because the campaign I created (and am going to use my group to test) doesn't include it. The feel of the setting is a very primal, back-to-basics type world, with heavy emphasis on the power of the elements and, of course, dragons. Psionics doesn't really fit into that. That being said, once I'm done testing the world, I'd have no problems opening it up and allowing players to run around with Psionics, just to give the system a shot - it's just limited for now while I test to make sure I've created the world I was aiming to create.

Morty
2009-07-09, 01:18 PM
Heh, it's funny, I have the exact same feeling about vancian casting. Every decent CRPG uses it ('cause they're D&D based), old Final Fantasies use it, etc. Spell point system, on the other hand, is mostly present in SNES-era and newer JRPGs.

I can't think of any cRPG that uses Vancian casting that isn't D&D-based of Final Fantasy I. Granted, I don't play jRPGs except for trying out FF1 and FF3. Most cRPGs or pseudo-cRPGs use mana points or some better systems.


Yeah, well, don't take it personally, because you're a rare exception to the general trends. That exception being someone who dislikes psionics for a perfectly valid (but very strange) reason, i.e. actually strongly liking the Vancian system.

Ah, so liking the Vancian casting is "strange" now? But anyway, what general trends? Did you guys carry out a survey or something? And when someone says that the "first and foremost" reason for disliking psionics is misunderstanding the rules, I see no reason not to take it personally.

kamikasei
2009-07-09, 01:25 PM
And when someone says that the "first and foremost" reason for disliking psionics is misunderstanding the rules, I see no reason not to take it personally.

Let me offer a reason: because it's a bad idea to take anything personally if you can avoid doing so. If someone wants to offend you, make them have to work at it.

If someone asks "why don't people like psionics" and someone else replies "mostly because they don't understand it", that's not a personal attack on those who do understand the rules but dislike them anyway. It's a statement about the reason the second speaker considers most widespread.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-09, 01:48 PM
Ah, so liking the Vancian casting is "strange" now?Basically, yeah.:smalltongue: The system is odd, unintuitive, and doesn't seem realistic. Liking it isn't unheard of, but it's definitely not common. Witness the number of threads about people who can't understand why they can't burn a 9th level slot for multiple lower level ones.
But anyway, what general trends? Did you guys carry out a survey or something? And when someone says that the "first and foremost" reason for disliking psionics is misunderstanding the rules, I see no reason not to take it personally.No survey, just the fact that almost every time someone posts about a game where they've banned psionics, it's for balance reasons, 'because 5d6 at first level is insane'. You're the exception to the norm. Run a search of this site for Psionics and banned and you'll see what I mean. The primary reason is people thinking the system is broken compared to core casters. :smallconfused:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 02:05 PM
Basically, yeah.:smalltongue: The system is odd, unintuitive, and doesn't seem realistic. Liking it isn't unheard of, but it's definitely not common. Witness the number of threads about people who can't understand why they can't burn a 9th level slot for multiple lower level ones.

Hey, I like it--it's different from all the bazillions of mana systems out there, it's uniquely D&D (or it was until everyone copied it), and the science-y feel makes D&D more of its own separate game than "medieval Europe with magic" (though of course many people think of it as exactly that). Plus, I actually liked the Dying Earth magic system, which apparently most people don't.

Dragonmuncher
2009-07-09, 02:26 PM
There was a FF with Vancian-type magic? The only one I could think of would be FF8, and even that's a bit different.

As for people not understanding it: One of the most common things I've heard is "My DM doesn't allow psionics because he thinks they're overpowered/doesn't want to learn a new system." It's not that only smart people understand psionics, it's just that not everyone wants to learn a new system they've heard is complicated.


Which brings me to this: Psionics isn't really that complicated. Especially not compared to any of the ToB or ToM classes, or Incarnum.

jokey665
2009-07-09, 02:31 PM
There was a FF with Vancian-type magic? The only one I could think of would be FF8, and even that's a bit different.

FF8 isn't Vancian, but 1&3 are. At least I think it's those two.

Indon
2009-07-09, 03:18 PM
FF8 isn't Vancian, but 1&3 are. At least I think it's those two.

Two, Four, and Five also maintained some of the Vancian trappings, like a 9-level spell progression per casting list, if I recall.

AslanCross
2009-07-09, 03:32 PM
I think one of the real issues is determining magic/psionic transparency. Life becomes infinitely easier for a DM (and for players, honestly) if you determine that psions just use magic in a different way and manifest different abilities, rather than drawing on a completely separate energy field or what have you. Because then you just make things like dispel magic and dispel psionics do the same thing, no matter if the thing being dispelled was created by an arcane, divine, or psionic caster.


This is what I do. I haven't had any trouble with it so far, though in general I avoid adding psionic monsters into the adventure.

In my first campaign I also banned psionics because I didn't understand it, but after reading it and learning the all-important augmentation rule, I realized that psionics was a pretty awesome ruleset to add in.

ThunderCat
2009-07-09, 03:44 PM
Psionics are certainly an INTERESTING system.. but I choose not to use it, because the campaign I created (and am going to use my group to test) doesn't include it. The feel of the setting is a very primal, back-to-basics type world, with heavy emphasis on the power of the elements and, of course, dragons. Psionics doesn't really fit into that. That being said, once I'm done testing the world, I'd have no problems opening it up and allowing players to run around with Psionics, just to give the system a shot - it's just limited for now while I test to make sure I've created the world I was aiming to create.Strange. That's exactly the type of campaign I'd figure well suited for psionics. Back-to-basics=pure power of the mind, with no fancy movements or exotic components. I'd probably ban vancian casting as one of the first things in a primal campaign.

Ganurath
2009-07-09, 03:51 PM
Strange. That's exactly the type of campaign I'd figure well suited for psionics. Back-to-basics=pure power of the mind, with no fancy movements or exotic components. I'd probably ban vancian casting as one of the first things in a primal campaign.Nevermind that most of the psionic items are tatoos and shiny rocks. Or Psychic Warrior's Breath of the Dragon. Or how psionics requires a lot less organization to get out manifesters than a wizard's college, a bardic academy, or a cleric's temple training.

erikun
2009-07-09, 04:49 PM
Well, since I obviously missed that scion was supposed to be psion in your first post - a rather obvious mistake on my part, I guess - let me give you a rundown of your options as a Psion.

The first point is that a Psion is like a limited yet versatile Sorcerer. While a Sorcerer needs to spend his first-level spell slots on Shield or Magic Missile, the Psion's "spell slots" are power points, which can be spent on whatever powers you wish. So, you could spend 5 power points on a Fireball-like power, or on five Magic Missiles... or on a augmented Magic Missile than hits like a fireball. That's the basic idea behind Psionics.

When creating a Psion, you must choose a discipline. A discipline is kind of like a specialist wizard; you can learn general powers and powers of your discipline, but not powers of any other discipline. (Don't worry too much, there are a lot of good general powers available to everyone.) The choice of discipline also determines your class skills, to a point. All Psions know Concentration and Psicraft, for example, but only Shapers know Use Psionic Device, while only Telepaths have Diplomancy.

There are six disciplines. Psychometabolism (Egoist) grant you a number of self-buffs, including psudo-healing like Empathic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransfer.htm) and Revivify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm). Psychoportation (Nomad) centers around teleportation and movement, including attacks like Baleful Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/balefulTeleport.htm). Psychokinesis (Kineticist) involves telekinetically controlling objects, like with Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm), and straight-up blasting.

Metacreativity (Shaper) creates objects, the most famous of which is Astral Construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm), although it also includes Fabricate. Clairsentience (Seer) is similar to a Wizardly Diviner, such as Object Reading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/objectReading.htm) and Precognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognition.htm). Finally, Telepathy (Telepath) includes the obvious mind-control powers, such as Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate.

Remember that, unlike a Wizard or Sorcerer, you can spend power points freely between powers. While a specialist-Wizard Diviner is stuck memorizing divination spells he might never use, a Seer can simply attack with Energy Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm), and pull out the Remote Viewing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/remoteViewing.htm) only when needed.

There are a few variants on the Psion. The Wilder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm) is like a Psion, with two big exceptions. She has less powers know (and can only select general powers), and she uses Wild Surges to temporarily increases her manifestor level - and thus, how much she can augment her powers.

The other is the Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b&page=1), a variation on the Psion that makes him more "Wizard-like". While the Erudite is limited in how many different powers he can use each day (a restriction no other Psionic class has), he can learn any number of powers, given that he is willing to lose XP to do so.


As for books, you will obviously want the Expanded Psionics Handbook, or access to the d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), which basically includes everything in an online format. While others don't like it much, I recommend the Complete Psionic - there's a lot you probably won't use, but the extra stuff like the Ardent, Astral Construct feats, and a few prestige classes do make up for it. And finally, save a bookmark to the Mind's Eye Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi); it's a large source of Psionic creatures, powers, variant classes, and everything else we didn't get in a printed form.

quick_comment
2009-07-09, 04:52 PM
Wait, do ardents get access to powers way earlier than psions?

It says you can choose a mantle once your level = pp cost of the power. That gives you access to things like true metabolism at level 8, rather than level 15 like a psion or wilder.


Also, can you do things like ToB characters? Ie, dip into psion for more powers and manifest them with your ardent pp and ML?

quick_comment
2009-07-09, 05:01 PM
And would the X nightmare blade maneuvers multiply the stat damage from the soulknife's knife to the soul?

A Soulknife 15/Warblade 5 could only get ruby knightmare blade, but he could deal 8 int, wis or cha damage with that, in addition to the normal damage. If there is a feat somewhere to up your psychic strike damage, you can get it higher.

If you take enough feats/items to get diamond nightmare blade, your damage goes up to 16, which to the right stat, is enough to outright drop just about anyone. I dont know of any class that would have more than 16 in each mental stat.

erikun
2009-07-09, 05:17 PM
Your manifester level is dependent on your class level. A Psion 15/Psychic Warrior 5 can spend up to 15 PP on a Psion power, but only up to 5 PP on a Psychic Warrior power.

You only have one Power Point pool, which all powers draw from. The above character would have 195 PP (from being a Psion 15) + 7 PP (from being a Psychic Warrior 5) + bonus from INT (Psion) + bonus from WIS (PsyWar).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm under "Multiclass Psionic Characters"


And would the X nightmare blade maneuvers multiply the stat damage from the soulknife's knife to the soul?

A Soulknife 15/Warblade 5 could only get ruby knightmare blade, but he could deal 8 int, wis or cha damage with that, in addition to the normal damage. If there is a feat somewhere to up your psychic strike damage, you can get it higher.

If you take enough feats/items to get diamond nightmare blade, your damage goes up to 16, which to the right stat, is enough to outright drop just about anyone. I dont know of any class that would have more than 16 in each mental stat.
This probably depends on if a DM would alloy you to use Sneak Attack Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm) to deal 10d6 Strength damage in a single hit. Most I know would not, so check with your DM first. see three posts down

quick_comment
2009-07-09, 05:19 PM
This probably depends on if a DM would alloy you to use Sneak Attack Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm) to deal 10d6 Strength damage in a single hit. Most I know would not, so check with your DM first.

Ray of enfeeblement doesnt do strength damage, it applies a strength penalty.

erikun
2009-07-09, 05:26 PM
^ Point, but I don't think most DMs would allow it either way.


Whoops, missed the question about the Ardent.

The Ardent gains powers solely from his Mantels - the is no "general Ardent power list." A 1st level Ardent with the Life and Elements Mantles, for example, would know Touch of Health (from the Life Mantle) and either Control Flames or Elemental Steward (from the Elements Mantle). They also get the special abilities from both the Life and Elements Mantles.

At 2nd level, the Ardent gets a third Mantle, and can choose powers from any of the three.

You can only choose powers that you can Manifest. An Ardent could not learn Disintegrate (Destruction Mantle 6) until 13th level, because he wouldn't be able to spend the 13 PP to manifest the power until then.

erikun
2009-07-09, 05:31 PM
Edit again.

Reading through it again, the Soulknife gives up his Psychic Strike damage in exchange for ability damage. While I'm not familiar with ToB classes, Psychic Strike isn't the same as Sneak Attack - an if it's what I'm thinking, you could not give up Sneak Attack dice for extra ability damage.

quick_comment
2009-07-09, 05:34 PM
Can someone help me with my wilder feats?

Right now I am working on a wilder 5/anarchic initiate 7/warblade 2, focusing on astral constructs and white raven.

I am forced to be human to get able learner so I can meet the knowledge requirements of the anarchic initiate.

Human .Able Learner
Cha 1 .Boost Construct
Cha 3 .Psychic Renewal (As swift action, expend psionic focus + pp=maneuver level to regain maneuver)
Cha 6 .Psionic Meditation
Cha 9 .Expanded Knowledge(Astral Construct)
Cha12 .Practiced Manifester(Wilder)


As you can see, I dont have a single metapsionic feat.

Im thinking of changing to ardent 5/slayer 7/warblade 2, or even psychic warrior 5/slayer 7/warblade 2.

What are your suggestions?

quick_comment
2009-07-09, 05:35 PM
Edit again.

Reading through it again, the Soulknife gives up his Psychic Strike damage in exchange for ability damage. While I'm not familiar with ToB classes, Psychic Strike isn't the same as Sneak Attack - an if it's what I'm thinking, you could not give up Sneak Attack dice for extra ability damage.

The X nightmare blade maneuvers multiple all non-variable damage. Ruby nightmare by 2, and diamond nightmare blade by 4. The ability damage is nonvariable, so I assume it would get multiplied.

erikun
2009-07-09, 06:02 PM
^ Again, not sure. That sounds more like a DM's call, as using two obscure class abilities to kill a dragon in 3 hits is probably not somethings most DMs would like in their games.


Ardent with the Creation Mantle will get you Astral Constructs at level 1, which looks better than waiting until level 9 for them. Remember that they won't last for long at low levels, with 1 round/level giving them only a single attack from first level. Your other Mantles will define your abilities - Energy Mantle gives you lasor eyebeams, Force Mantle gives you deflectors and TK shoves, Life Mantle lets you act as a healer, etc.

Psychic Warrior has a lot of fun stuff for combat. Force Screen for shield AC, Expansion for larger weapon, Dissolving Weapon for acid damage, etc. They even have utility powers like Elfsight, or Levitate. However, you're going to be short on PP as a PsiWar, so you won't be able to create Constructs very often.

Slayer is generally considered to be one of the best Psionic gish classes around - you basically get full manifester progression, no drawbacks, and full BAB on top of it. Some DMs may not allow it, feeling it too strong, but definitely pick it up if your DM doesn't have a problem with it.

Overall, it sounds like you want an Ardent/Slayer/Warblade, with Creation as one of the primary Mantles. I'm not sure what other Mantles would fit your character, although Communication and Conflict look like the best matches.

Draz74
2009-07-09, 06:18 PM
Ah, so liking the Vancian casting is "strange" now? But anyway, what general trends? Did you guys carry out a survey or something?

My opinion of "general trends" is mostly based on what I see on the Homebrew forum. There are a lot more attempts to convert Wizards and Clerics into something similar to the Psionics mechanics, than attempts (i.e. zero) to convert the Psion and the Ardent into Vancian classes. A lot of homebrew settings that, if they dare to houserule extensively enough to change the magic system at all, want to get rid of Vancian casting and still have a workable array of spellcasting classes.

Incidentally, I like Vancian casting for the few specific settings where it is actually a cornerstone of the world's fluff, such as the original Dying Earth setting. But as far as non-setting-specific RPG rules go, I prefer something that better matches the bulk of fantasy literature out there. And Lord of the Rings, Conan, David Eddings, Wheel of Time, Prydain, Narnia, Discworld, and so forth sure ain't Vancian, whatever they are.

quick_comment
2009-07-09, 07:03 PM
^ Again, not sure. That sounds more like a DM's call, as using two obscure class abilities to kill a dragon in 3 hits is probably not somethings most DMs would like in their games.


Diamond Nightmare blade is a level 8 maneuver, it requires initiator level 15 to use as a regular maneuver. There are other ways to get it, but they are all once per day or once per encounter.
Soulknife 11/Warblade 9 has IL 14, which is just 1 short. You might get your DM to round the half IL from the odd number of soulknife levels up, but I doubt it. The next breakpoint for psychic strike is Soulknife 7/Warblade 13 which has IL 17, but only 2d6 psychic strike.



Would it be legal to go Wilder 3/Psion 1/Wilder+1/Slayer/Warblade, and use the bonus feat from psion 1 to pick up expanded knowledge for a wilder power? It also frees up my human bonus feat because psions get all knowledge skills as class skills.

Draz74
2009-07-09, 07:09 PM
Would it be legal to go Wilder 3/Psion 1/Wilder+1/Slayer/Warblade, and use the bonus feat from psion 1 to pick up expanded knowledge for a wilder power? It also frees up my human bonus feat because psions get all knowledge skills as class skills.

Almost, but not quite.

While it's not formally listed as a prerequisite, you don't get anything out of taking Expanded Knowledge unless you know a Power of at least 2nd Level. Because the new power you learn via feat has to be lower-level than something else you can already manifest.

Wilders don't learn a 2nd-Level Power until Level 4.

NEO|Phyte
2009-07-09, 07:11 PM
Diamond Nightmare blade is a level 8 maneuver, it requires initiator level 15 to use as a regular maneuver. There are other ways to get it, but they are all once per day or once per encounter.
Soulknife 11/Warblade 9 has IL 14, which is just 1 short. You might get your DM to round the half IL from the odd number of soulknife levels up, but I doubt it. The next breakpoint for psychic strike is Soulknife 7/Warblade 13 which has IL 17, but only 2d6 psychic strike.
Your numbercrunching neglects the fact that you need Soulknife 13 to be able to deal ability damage with the psychic strike.

quick_comment
2009-07-09, 07:17 PM
Your numbercrunching neglects the fact that you need Soulknife 13 to be able to deal ability damage with the psychic strike.

Ah, true.

Well, soulknife still sucks then. Nothing to see here.

gabado
2009-07-09, 07:22 PM
what psionic class do you recommend for my first psionic character? keep in mind, i want fun to play not super over powered owns in the face with every punch.*



*this is taking in to account the general over-poweredness of 3.5 and from what i hear some psionics.

NEO|Phyte
2009-07-09, 07:27 PM
what psionic class do you recommend for my first psionic character? keep in mind, i want fun to play not super over powered owns in the face with every punch.

The real question is what you want out of your first psionic character. Do you want to make things fall over bleeding from their ears? Do you want to turn your hands into vicious claws while sprouting tentacles? Do you want to throw around assorted elemental attacks like they're going out of style?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 07:33 PM
keep in mind, i want fun to play not super over powered owns in the face with every punch.

Nothing psionic is super overpowered, or even normal overpowered. Pick a class based on the concept, not the power level, and you'll do fine.

erikun
2009-07-09, 07:39 PM
Psion is a good starting choice, as you'll have a bunch of powers to choose from. Wilder is similar, and probably more your style if you want a "Wild Mage" Psion.

Ardent is like the "Psionic Cleric", so to speak - full armor proficiency, simple weapon proficiency, okay HP and varied powers to choose from. You have very few powers known, though.

Psychic Warrior is like a Psionic Fighter. Slightly less BAB, few PP mean you won't be manifesting often. However, most powers are self-buffs though, so you won't be manifesting more than once or twice an encounter (normally).

There is the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b), if you like sneaking and psionics. Haven't played it myself.

I haven't played a Lurk before. I do like the idea behind it, but haven't seen it in action.

Assassin89
2009-07-09, 07:44 PM
Nothing psionic is super overpowered, or even normal overpowered. Pick a class based on the concept, not the power level, and you'll do fine.

I can relate to this idea because I game with someone who played a psychic warrior. He was deadly in physical combat with use of expansion, which resulted in multiple dice being rolled. Essentially he could deal large amounts of damage, but his armor class meant that he was easy to hit.

I think the same concept using either a wizard or cleric would be difficult to use for such classes.

gabado
2009-07-09, 07:46 PM
do you recommend buying the expanded psionics handbook or just using the files available from WoTC. as a moral rule i do not torrent.

erikun
2009-07-09, 07:52 PM
I prefer the books in hand, but that's just a personal preference. You can find basically everything on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), except choice things like stats for Mind Flayer, Githyanki, etc.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-09, 11:11 PM
Incidentally, I like Vancian casting for the few specific settings where it is actually a cornerstone of the world's fluff, such as the original Dying Earth setting. But as far as non-setting-specific RPG rules go, I prefer something that better matches the bulk of fantasy literature out there. And Lord of the Rings, Conan, David Eddings, Wheel of Time, Prydain, Narnia, Discworld, and so forth sure ain't Vancian, whatever they are.Actually, Discworld is. Though that may well have been a reference to D&D in the first place, but Discworld's memorization of spells is very much like 2E vancian, but even rougher on the Wizards.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-09, 11:20 PM
Actually, Discworld is. Though that may well have been a reference to D&D in the first place, but Discworld's memorization of spells is very much like 2E vancian, but even rougher on the Wizards.

It's not so much 2e Vancian as straight Dying Earth magic--spells are sentient and want to be cast, holding a handful in your mind is very taxing, individual spells pretty much decide combat, etc.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-10, 06:07 AM
It's not so much 2e Vancian as straight Dying Earth magic--spells are sentient and want to be cast, holding a handful in your mind is very taxing, individual spells pretty much decide combat, etc.

Not always. Wizards and witches can do magical feats without needing to prepare spells in advance. Although, yeah, the more complex spells are sentient.

...In fact, do witches use 'sentient' spells? I'm sure they could, but I'm not sure most would bother.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-10, 07:54 AM
Not always. Wizards and witches can do magical feats without needing to prepare spells in advance. Although, yeah, the more complex spells are sentient.

Well, neither AD&D nor Vance had non-prepared magic without items or innate abilities, so where it does resemble either, it's more the latter.


...In fact, do witches use 'sentient' spells? I'm sure they could, but I'm not sure most would bother.

I don't recall reading anything about them using (or being able to use) spells like that either way, though I don't believe I've read all of the witches books so it could be in there somewhere.

Dhavaer
2009-07-10, 08:02 AM
...In fact, do witches use 'sentient' spells? I'm sure they could, but I'm not sure most would bother.

I don't think they ever have in the books; the closest thing would probably be Magrat making the wood in the door grow in Wyrd Sisters. Wizards, equally, don't seem to use the more psionic-type powers witches do, like Borrowing and mind blasts like Granny and the Queen were throwing around in Lords & Ladies. It seems Wizards are Vancian and Witches are Psionic.

Indon
2009-07-10, 08:57 AM
Actually, Discworld is. Though that may well have been a reference to D&D in the first place, but Discworld's memorization of spells is very much like 2E vancian, but even rougher on the Wizards.

Amber, however, essentially runs AD&D Vancian magic - at one point in the sixth book, the main character basically casts Polymorph, taking him half an hour because he hadn't memorized it beforehand.

Edit: Also, Wheel of Time clearly uses MP (and a sanity system for some magic users).

Morty
2009-07-10, 09:01 AM
Actually, Discworld is. Though that may well have been a reference to D&D in the first place, but Discworld's memorization of spells is very much like 2E vancian, but even rougher on the Wizards.

Yep. First Discworld books use it explictly, then it's forgotten for few books and then brought up again. But memorizing spells is certainly there.
Not that it matters for me, because Vancian casting not appearing in many books is, if anything, an advantage for me. Why should I want something that's appeared in every fantasy book there is?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-10, 10:35 AM
Why should I want something that's appeared in every fantasy book there is?

...um, aside from Dying Earth, D&D fiction, Discworld, and Amber, where do you see this sort of thing? For every book I've read with something resembling Vancian casting, I can think of at least 3 books that don't, and those 3 books don't usually share the same system even among themselves.

Morty
2009-07-10, 10:37 AM
...um, aside from Dying Earth, D&D fiction, Discworld, and Amber, where do you see this sort of thing? For every book I've read with something resembling Vancian casting, I can think of at least 3 books that don't, and those 3 books don't usually share the same system even among themselves.

Right. Which is my whole point. Vancian casting doesn't appear in books very often, but I don't mind it, as it's not generic that way like power points are.

kamikasei
2009-07-10, 10:48 AM
Part of it, M0rt, is that many would like their magic system to be something that can represent either a widespread or an intuitive model of magic so that they can draw on many inspirations while working with it, as opposed to a highly idiosyncratic model that does a poor job of represnting magic as wielded by most fantasy characters.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-10, 11:00 AM
Right. Which is my whole point. Vancian casting doesn't appear in books very often, but I don't mind it, as it's not generic that way like power points are.

Ah, okay; I misunderstood. I read that as "Vancian casting not appearing in many books is a good thing because it's appeared in pretty much every fantasy book there is."

gabado
2009-07-10, 04:47 PM
i want to play a psion but i am unsure which discipline i should take.

also what is the shtick with the psicrystals, are they essentially familiars or what?

and also what race* is best for a psion?


*no evil races or races with level adjustment

kamikasei
2009-07-10, 04:51 PM
Well, what kind of psion do you want to be? There's none that you "should" take, it's a matter of preference and playstyle.

Psicrystals are pretty much familiars, yes, except that you need to spend a feat on them (out of your bonus feats, generally). Their chief use is a) storing psionic focus and b) getting extra actions at high levels (besides the uses familiars have, that is). Oh, and since they can speak and communicate telepathically with you and, later, with others, they can be used as a walkie-talkie if you split the party.

Pretty much any good wizard race should be fine. Human is always good.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-10, 04:52 PM
They're Familiars +1. Much of the same traits as familiars, including a sliding scale of intelligence and various special powers. The primary difference is a (sometimes disputed) line in their Hit Dice/Hit Points - familiars retain their Hit Dice but have HP equal to half their master's HP; psicrystals explicitly have Hit Dice equal to their master's level in psion or wilder, with the same line about half their master's HP. Since they have actual HD, this means that they get feats of their own, which can potentially be abused via thinks like the Feat Leech power.

Keld Denar
2009-07-10, 04:53 PM
Shapers and Telepaths seem to be the more popular breeds, although Kineticists have their own following if you feel like playing a bowless archer.

And yea. Psicrystals are like familiars, only 100x more badass. They are resiliant little buggers and there are tons of shanananananananananigans you can pull with em. I won't even go into the list, as most of it is pretty mind boggling.

gabado
2009-07-10, 04:59 PM
I'm kinda into the shaper and the telepath, but i can't decide which to chose from. i haven't looked to closely at the powers of the telepath, but i think they would be interesting to play, unless they function as beguilers (PHB 2), i didn't like having to rely on my opponent to have an intelligence score in order to function, also i didn't like their lack of damage doing spells.

i do not mention beguilers to start some long winded discussion of their powers and abilities, more as a reference point.

Moriato
2009-07-10, 05:01 PM
and also what race* is best for a psion?


*no evil races or races with level adjustment

Elans, hands down


Elans


-2 Charisma
Aberration: Elans are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
Medium: As Medium creatures, elans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elan base land speed is 30 feet.
Elans (unlike most aberrations) do not have darkvision.
Naturally Psionic: Elans gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
Resistance (Su): Elans can use psionic energy to increase their resistance to various forms of attack. As an immediate action, an elan can spend 1 power point to gain a +4 racial bonus on saving throws until the beginning of her next action.
Resilience (Su): When an elan takes damage, she can spend power points to reduce its severity. As an immediate action, she can reduce the damage she is about to take by 2 hit points for every 1 power point she spends.
Repletion (Su): An elan can sustain her body without need of food or water. If she spends 1 power point, an elan does not need to eat or drink for 24 hours.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). Elans’ past lives expose them to wide ranges of language.
Favored Class: Psion.
Level Adjustment: +0.



I will never understand why this race does not have a HUGE level adjustment. I suppose if you're not playing a class that gets power points it's not *that* powerful, but if you are... and let's face it, if you're playing an elan, you probably are, then you pretty much never get hurt.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-10, 05:04 PM
You get hurt if two different people attack you, or if one person attacks you twice - remember that Immediate actions are 1/turn, and also use up your Swift action for the next turn, so no quickened power. Plus, an elan using Resilience every turn will be very hard to hurt, yes, but he'll also be leaking power points like a sieve, and 'burn out' even faster than a regular psion would.

gabado
2009-07-10, 05:13 PM
You get hurt if two different people attack you, or if one person attacks you twice - remember that Immediate actions are 1/turn, and also use up your Swift action for the next turn, so no quickened power. Plus, an elan using Resilience every turn will be very hard to hurt, yes, but he'll also be leaking power points like a sieve, and 'burn out' even faster than a regular psion would.


as a psion you are usually standing close, if not at the back of the party.


i think i am going to play an Elan ________* psion.



*still need a psionic discipline, I'm thinking telepath or shaper advise will be well received

Moriato
2009-07-10, 05:14 PM
You get hurt if two different people attack you, or if one person attacks you twice - remember that Immediate actions are 1/turn, and also use up your Swift action for the next turn, so no quickened power. Plus, an elan using Resilience every turn will be very hard to hurt, yes, but he'll also be leaking power points like a sieve, and 'burn out' even faster than a regular psion would.

1 power point per round is not that much, a tenth level psion almost certainly has over 100, and it would take him ten rounds to spend as much on that ability as it costs to manifest just one of his highest level powers, or a pumped up lower level one. Plus, that's a racial bonus, so it stacks with just about everything else, and on top of all that, it's an immediate action, so you don't have to use it "just in case", if you don't have to make a save, or you know you can make it easily anyway, you don't have to use it.

Draz74
2009-07-10, 05:15 PM
Yeah, Elans are good Psions, but are far from broken (unless you mix in other cheese, like Rapidstrike shenanigans).

Telepath is the strongest Discipline, unless you're against things that are immune to Mind-Affecting, in which case it loses its offensive punch. (Mindlink and especially Schism are still awesome, though.)

All the other Disciplines are pretty equal; Nomad and Seer are probably a bit less powerful than the others, but still not bad. If you go Kineticist, pay very close attention to which powers advance their Save DCs for every point of Augmentation, rather than every 2 points, like Energy Missile. (And check whether your DM nerfs those powers. A lot of DMs do, especially since Complete Psionic did so; but whether nerfing it was really needed pretty much comes down to whether you think Blasting should make a powerful build or not.)

The most immediate differences between Familiars and Psicrystals are just this: the Psicrystal has no attack, but it does have Hardness 8, which goes a long way to keep it from dying randomly or accidentally. Oh, btw, the rules never actually say what happens to you if your Psicrystal dies or whether there's a way for you to get a new one. Check with your DM on that, too.

Yeah, there's a lot of shenanigans you can pull with Psicrystals if you actually try, but let me explain the most straightforward of them (which isn't broken): Manifesting the power Vigor on yourself and sharing it with your Psicrystal, and then manifesting Share Pain on the Psicrystal. Voila, you've just used your PP to give yourself a LOT of temporary HP.

Lert, A.
2009-07-10, 05:17 PM
For a psionic race the Kalashtar from Eberron are a great race with 1 pp per level, +2 to saves vs. mind affecting, immunity to a couple of spells, and bonuses to a few social skills.

Free pp is always good (hee hee, I said pee pee :smalltongue:).

gabado
2009-07-10, 05:23 PM
yeah i think I'm going to look into the telepath and see if it is any good.

thanks for all the help.

Indon
2009-07-10, 05:24 PM
Elans, hands down...

I will never understand why this race does not have a HUGE level adjustment. I suppose if you're not playing a class that gets power points it's not *that* powerful, but if you are... and let's face it, if you're playing an elan, you probably are, then you pretty much never get hurt.

1 PP for 2 damage is not a very good rate of return, as far as I can tell.

Level 1 powers cost 1 PP, +2 per subsequent level - So the points you used to prevent 34 damage is equivalent of using a power equivalent to a 9th-level spell.

I'm not entirely sure it should be a +0 race, but you should note that it gets no +2 to any stat, something most +0 races get. If Psionic classes gain extra power points from their primary stat (not sure on this), it might be better to just go with a class that grants a +2 to that stat, rather than just get a flat +2 bonus to your PP.

tyckspoon
2009-07-10, 05:29 PM
1 power point per round is not that much, a tenth level psion almost certainly has over 100, and it would take him ten rounds to spend as much on that ability as it costs to manifest just one of his highest level powers, or a pumped up lower level one. Plus, that's a racial bonus, so it stacks with just about everything else, and on top of all that, it's an immediate action, so you don't have to use it "just in case", if you don't have to make a save, or you know you can make it easily anyway, you don't have to use it.

Ok, yes, if you're talking specifically about Resistance it's a good deal, although it still has the modest drawback of eating your Swift actions. If you want to achieve 'never get hurt', however, you have to use Resilience, which is a very inefficient way to mitigate damage. HPs are cheap and easy to recover; PPs are not. Even (Augmented) Body Adjustment is a more efficient recovery method than preventing damage with Resilience, and Body Adjustment is lamed out of the gate by being a 3rd level power that restores a puny 1d12 HP unaugmented.

Draz74
2009-07-10, 05:30 PM
yeah i think I'm going to look into the telepath and see if it is any good.

thanks for all the help.

K then, here's a review of some Telepath powers for you:

Mindlink -- it's utility rather than combat, but it's awesome. Most people overlook it.

Psionic Charm -- depending on your DM, it's possibly not any better than the general Psion power Attraction.

False Sensory Input -- like Wizard illusions with a psionic flavor. Great if you're into the psionic flavor, but not super-powerful -- except in a couple wacky situations.

Psionic Dominate -- it's really quite impressive how early in the game you can get this, and how flexibly it Augments.

Schism -- this is so good, practically every psionic character who isn't a Telepath spends a feat on it.

(True) Mind Switch -- dangerous potential to break a campaign, but also potential for a lot of fun.

Moriato
2009-07-10, 05:31 PM
1 PP for 2 damage is not a very good rate of return, as far as I can tell.

Level 1 powers cost 1 PP, +2 per subsequent level - So the points you used to prevent 34 damage is equivalent of using a power equivalent to a 9th-level spell.


It's less like a spell that prevents 34 damage, and more like a spell that prevents just enough damage to keep you alive, for as long as you have power points. I'm sure if there was a feat that let a spellcaster sacrifice their higest level spell to negate a killing blow (or damaging spell) once per round, lots of people would take it.

It's kind of like a rogue's Defensive roll ability. Only better. And you get it at level 1 instead of 13. I'm not saying it's game breaking, but the race gets a lot more than even any of the +1 LA races I know of.

Charlie Kemek
2009-07-10, 05:37 PM
you also might want to eventually go into the Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) (a prestige class for telepaths). it may or may not be what you are looking for, but it helps your charming and domination, gets you LOTS of servents, but makes you loose 1-2 manifesting levels

Edit: you may also want to not play an elan if the campain is going long. your party would much rather have you play a Gray Elf (in MM, exact same thing as normal Elf, but it also gets +2 Int, -2 str, so you get +1 to the DCs of your spells, bonus power points, etc.)

Indon
2009-07-10, 05:40 PM
It's less like a spell that prevents 34 damage, and more like a rogue's Defensive roll ability. Only better. And you get it at level 1 instead of 13. I'm not saying it's game breaking, but the race gets a lot more than even any of the +1 LA races I know of.

Its' special abilities are pretty much all it has - I mean, a +2 to a primary casting stat, for a Psion, apparently means +2 PP at level 4, and it continues to increase to a +10.

Then there's also ability save DC's.

Pretty powerful in low levels, I guess, but the Elan's powers seem to scale more poorly compared to a +0 class that would get +2 to their primary stat.

Moriato
2009-07-10, 06:07 PM
Its' special abilities are pretty much all it has - I mean, a +2 to a primary casting stat, for a Psion, apparently means +2 PP at level 4, and it continues to increase to a +10.

Then there's also ability save DC's.

Pretty powerful in low levels, I guess, but the Elan's powers seem to scale more poorly compared to a +0 class that would get +2 to their primary stat.

+10 PP and +1 save DCs versus +2 power points, a reflexive +4 to saves, and a reflexive "get out of death" free card? I'll take it. Not to mention being an abberation. Being non humanoid has a couple of small drawbacks, but opens up a lot of opportunities for feats, spells, and prcs that humanoids don't have access to.

gabado
2009-07-10, 09:13 PM
for my psicrystal, how do i determine ability scores?*


*i rolled for my character's stats, i did not use point buy

erikun
2009-07-10, 10:04 PM
Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm) All psicrystals have the same stats, unless you have a feat/power than adjusts them.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-10, 10:26 PM
as a psion you are usually standing close, if not at the back of the party.


i think i am going to play an Elan ________* psion.



*still need a psionic discipline, I'm thinking telepath or shaper advise will be well received

Precisely, which makes Resilience less useful, since it reduces the times it matters.

If you're spending 1 PP/round for Resilience, you're only negated 2 damage/round, which is chump change at even 10th level. You'd have to be burning multiple PP on Resilience (yes, it's legal, it says power point[/i]s[/i], I don't understand why people get confused on this) for it to actually matter beyond squandering your swift/immediate actions, and that's when you start using up PP fast. Plus, as I mentioned, all it takes to render Resilience far less useful is to have 2 baddies go after you, or just have the one baddy swing twice, which is much more likely for a psion if they're being attacked at all, since they lack a wizard's arsenal of self-protections.

Don't get me wrong, Elans are great, but they're definitely not worth multiple LA. If anything, Dwarves are equally or more deserving of LA+1.


@Quoted person: Totally go shaper, if you can get your DM to ignore the CPsionic nerfs to Astral Construct and allow the Ubertastic Constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) PrC. Astral Constructs are fantastic, but without Constructor, you're better off taking any other Discipline and using Expanded Knowledge for the power, but if you can get the PrC, being a shaper saves you two feat slots and gets you a very, very rare Reflex Save-or-Suck power, which would otherwise cost yet another feat.

Moriato
2009-07-11, 03:11 PM
Precisely, which makes Resilience less useful, since it reduces the times it matters.

If you're spending 1 PP/round for Resilience, you're only negated 2 damage/round, which is chump change at even 10th level. You'd have to be burning multiple PP on Resilience (yes, it's legal, it says power point[/i]s[/i], I don't understand why people get confused on this) for it to actually matter beyond squandering your swift/immediate actions, and that's when you start using up PP fast. Plus, as I mentioned, all it takes to render Resilience far less useful is to have 2 baddies go after you, or just have the one baddy swing twice, which is much more likely for a psion if they're being attacked at all, since they lack a wizard's arsenal of self-protections.


You don't have to spend pp on it every round


Resilience (Su): When an elan takes damage, she can spend power points to reduce its severity. As an immediate action, she can reduce the damage she is about to take by 2 hit points for every 1 power point she spends.


You use it when you take damage, you don't have to pump power points into it every round "just in case". Same thing with resistance, if you don't get targeted with anything that requires a save, you just don't use it that round.

FMArthur
2009-07-11, 06:29 PM
A racial feat in Complete Psionic lets an Elan spend 1 point for every 4 points of damage blocked. If you're a psion, you should be doing your best to avoid damage altogether, but when you do get hit, you can nullify decent amounts of damage at a low cost. Definitely a very powerful ability to have for 0 LA, and the saving throw one is equally (if not more) powerful. Elans are a good psionic race.