OOTS #668 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[derfenrirwolv]

Pretty much what the boards have been saying for a while.. for once. Hmmm.. wonder how it will get turned around on us

[Nevitan]

"And that makes us one big happy family? Screw that." :smallbiggrin:
Awesome.

[Asarth]

Finally, the Linear Guild makes another appearance. I can only hope for Hilgya's return, though.

[Sharoth]

Awesome comic strip Giant!

[Jade_Tarem]

A 50/50 chance? V needs to work on those odds. :smalleek:

[OITS]

Isn't it just perfect?^^

[Iliad]

Exposition and foreshadowing

I smell the return of the Nale and co. And the plot beginning to move to the next gate.

[RMS Oceanic]

Ooh, interesting.

So creating destructive conflict, and possibly wearing everyone involved down so they can move in, is their overall goal.

Their Magnificent Bastardry keeps expanding.

[FirebirdFlying]

…They look like total morons.

They are! Isn't it just perfect?

I love the look on Orange's face…

But that's an interesting part-motive for the splice; like the ref yelling for Jailbreak in some game of Capture the Flag, to get things moving again.

[Street Pirate]

Most satisfying!

[RMS Oceanic]

And I just noticed: That picture of Linear Guild Classic is from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. A nice plug.

[aarondirebear]

Wait didn't Sabine talk to these guys way back when?

[werik]

They just want conflict? That seems doubtful to me. Sure they don't want either of those two sides to win, but I'm sure that they want to win.

[Porthos]

Hooray for the return of the Linear Guild!!

Sort of. :smalltongue:

"They look like total morons."
"They are! Isn't it just perfect." :smallbiggrin:

PS: The squiggles on the ex members of the LG was a fantastic little touch. :smalltongue:


Wait didn't Sabine talk to these guys way back when?

Yes, she did. Hence the "most of them don't know it" bit. :smallwink:

[ss49]

They are- hehe

That would be a lot of Good dragons, ya know.

And why aren't they worried about the Snarl or HobGod more?

[Elfey]

And I just noticed: That picture of Linear Guild Classic is from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. A nice plug.

Not only that, but it's updated with the surviving members. Even the one who can not be named due to the Spooky Wizard By the Coast.

I think the comic was satisfying as it let us know for sure that the Fiends were going for the big one. I also like how V's actual alignment is still in question by even the fiends.

I like even more how much they figured would go down by giving that power to V. What I really can't wait for is in a goodly number of strips, at the final book, when V is helping to control the gate how they split at the last second to defeat each other...

[Tundar]

Love how they've scratched those from the Linear Guild who died.

[Ichneumon]

I honestly thought this was going to be the big end of story arc thingy. I loved it, can't wait to have Nale back on screen... back on panel.

[Haven]

Is it...is it okay to express negative opinions on these boards? I hope so, I used to hang out at a webcomic forum where saying "I don't like this plot development" got an entire thread closed by the author, twice :smalleek:

Anyway, I don't see anything in the rules about it, so I'll just say: I didn't really like this strip. It didn't advance the plot much or have anything in the way of humor, but also the color scheme is a bit grating; everyone's word balloons just sort of blend with the background and with each other.

That said, I am pretty happy about the prospect of seeing the Linear Guild again. :)

[Frosty]

They seem somewhat devilish in their goals, seeing as how they traffic in souls. At the very least eternal conflict tends to produce more evil, and that means more souls to collect.

[Elfey]

Wait didn't Sabine talk to these guys way back when?

Yup. Back in like 380 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html

[Frogwarrior]

Love how they've scratched those from the Linear Guild who died.

D'oh, I had thought they just got some new friends. Well, nevermind.

And as far as we know, Hilgya didn't die - she just ran away and never came back.

Soooo, still scratched, then.

[Porthos]

They just want conflict? That seems doubtful to me. Sure they don't want either of those two sides to win, but I'm sure that they want to win.

If the two sides exhaust themselves and weaken each other, then they get to swoop in and pick up the pieces once all is said and done.

After all, why fight two sets of opponents when you can get them to kill each other? :smallamused:

[RMS Oceanic]

Is it...is it okay to express negative opinions on these boards? I hope so, I used to hang out at a webcomic forum where saying "I don't like this plot development" got an entire thread closed by the author, twice :smalleek:

Anyway, I don't see anything in the rules about it, so I'll just say: I didn't really like this strip. It didn't advance the plot much or have anything in the way of humor, but also the color scheme is a bit grating; everyone's word balloons just sort of blend with the background and with each other.

That said, I am pretty happy about the prospect of seeing the Linear Guild again. :)

No, negative opinions are fine, as long as they're polite.

That said, I think this strip was more to set up the IFCC's role in the later part of the plot. It was more foreshadowing than actual plot. Besides, the plot's moves at breakneck speed since 628, so we need a bit of a breather.

[Pandabear]

What is that red stuff covering some of the Linear guild's members?

[DnDgeek13]

i love the last two panels. and here Nale thinks of himself as the King when he really is the pawn

[Porthos]

That said, I think this strip was more to set up the IFCC's role in the later part of the plot. It was more foreshadowing than actual plot. Besides, the plot's moves at breakneck speed since 628, so we need a bit of a breather.

It also, thematically speaking, sets up the return of the Linear Guild, which hasn't been in this book at all. In fact, they haven't been seen since Comic #458, over 200 strips ago.

I tend to think of this (and the last few ones) as the gear shift as the plot moves from one arc to another.

[Porthos]

What is that red stuff covering some of the Linear guild's members?

Crayon. :smalltongue:

They've been scribbled out by the IFCC since Zz'dtri, Yikyik, and Hilgya aren't currently members of the team.

The fact that Rich used a Chapter Splash Page from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools was just icing on the cake. :smallwink:

[Elfey]

What is that red stuff covering some of the Linear guild's members?

just a scratching out of the former members.

[Raphite1]

I wonder what the fiends would have done if V had destroyed Team Evil (including phylactery)? Since their stated motive is to keep the OOTS/Team Evil conflict going, Xykon's defeat would have thwarted their plans. With just a small amount of better planning, V could have done it. So, did the fiends have an ace up their sleeve(s)?

Did they have a way to intercede to guarantee Team Evil's survival? It seems that they did not, since just one more Empowered Sunbust may have been enough to finish Xykon, and while watching the events unfold in Comic 656 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) they said that they couldn't act in the mortal plane to alter the outcome (at least not directly). Nevertheless, they don't seem panicky when Xykon's phylactery is on the verge of falling into the Rift in 659 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html), just intrigued by the turn of events.

For the amount of planning that the fiends seem to be putting into their grand scheme, it seems odd that they would gamble to such a degree on the outcome of V vs Xykon. What was their guarantee that it would work?

Also, why were they concerned that V would die in 656 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)? Xykon had probably gotten his "motivation" to get back on track with his plans even before the phylactery fiasco, and even if V died, the rest of the OOTS would still be hot on Team Evil's trail, perhaps even more so out of desire to avenge V.

[Elder Tsofu]

Nice to get some moving again. :)

[JoseB]

"Dune"-like, these fiends are... "Plans within plans within plans..."

Veeerrrrry interesting.... ^.^

Incidentally, I feel that today's comic means that we are going to see the Linear Guild in action reasonably soon. Good! I was missing Thog.... :smallwink:

[Xanadu]

As I understand it, they still have some large, as yet unmentioned larger plan, however, what they want for these two groups is massive conflict.

I also called it: three way race to Girard's Gate. And the LG already got a large head start. I also like that the LG will be part of the main plot for once, and not a seemingly small side-quest (Although don't get me wrong, I did like these quests.)

[Ichneumon]

You know, I think we will see Hylga again when they move to the dwarven lands.

[Bastian]

Finally, the Linear Guild makes another appearance. I can only hope for Hilgya's return, though.

She has been scratched from the panel, meaning she is either dead or out of their schemes permanently. I doubt she will be back.

[Ceric]

Yes! The Linear Guild returns!

Also I think this is the earliest (number) page that I've ever posted on in a discussion thread.

[Ichneumon]

She has been scratched from the panel, meaning she is either dead or out of their schemes permanently. I doubt she will be back.

She is out of the linear guilds picture, but she is part of almost the only character development Durkon has went through, I doubt she won't be back.

[Allerdyce]

I'm really looking forward to the Linear Guild being back in the comic. While I'm not their biggest fan, it's been too long since we've seen them, and they always bring the hijinks. Plus, Thog is awesome.

And I guess from what the coalition is saying, it's not part of their plan to manipulate V's soul while he's still living? I may be misinterpreting, but that's what I got from their dialogue. A little surprised by their stated goal, but it does make sense. Crazy.

[R. Shackleford]

So the Fiends are Naraku.

I just wonder who Nale will get to fill in the ranks this time?

[Ashram]

I'm hoping that since they said "fiendish", that eventually we'll find out which of them is the devil, the demon and the yugoloth. I want to go out on a limb and say the one that mentioned "destructive unecessary conflict" is the demon.

[Porthos]

And I guess from what the coalition is saying, it's not part of their plan to manipulate V's soul while he's still living? I may be misinterpreting, but that's what I got from their dialogue. A little surprised by their stated goal, but it does make sense. Crazy.

Not necessarily.

IFCC: "While (Xykon and the OotS) fight each other, we move our pawns into position".

That position, presumably enuf, would be control or access to a gate.

As for V's soul, in the previous comic they still stated that the time that they would use his soul (just over 45 minutes) was "more than sufficient for (their) purposes", which suggests that they plan to do something with the elf. Even if we aren't quite sure exactly what yet.

Perhaps cause mayhem and destruction. :smalltongue:

[Murdim]

And I guess from what the coalition is saying, it's not part of their plan to manipulate V's soul while he's still living? I may be misinterpreting, but that's what I got from their dialogue. A little surprised by their stated goal, but it does make sense. Crazy.Seeing that they seem to have a true purpose (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) for Vaarsuvius' soul, I think they do intend to use their rights on it to make the conflict longer and bloodier. It's just that the Giant wanted to keep it a secret ; after all, the "payback while V is still living" theory isn't that easy to come with, and not everybody watch the forums.

[SohumB]

In before "This is the strip 666 should have been!"

So, they may not take control of V to grab a gate, they just might use him as a wild card in case it looks like any one side is too close to winning.

Though "more than enough for our purposes" kinda makes it sound like there's a definite specific thing they want V to do. Hm.

(Loved the scribbled out characters and roughed up Yellow :})

[Finzy]

:thog: YAY! THE RETURN OF PUPPIES AND ICE CREAM!! :smallbiggrin:


Awesome to see the Linear Guild back, at long last. I wonder if they're gonna keep trying to hire new members or just go along with the three of them?

[infiniteviking]

Exposition, woot! Linear Guild, woot! Though Hilgya's scratched out and that's sad.

Also:


A 50/50 chance? V needs to work on those odds. :smalleek:

Agreed -- though I still think that's evidence on the "not evil, just teetering" side of the scale.


Edit:
:thog: YAY! THE RETURN OF PUPPIES AND ICE CREAM!! :smallbiggrin:

What you said!! :smallcool:

[blueblade]

Good strip, but a bit of a blunt instrument with the exposition. So they have setup to:

A. Have Sabine and the LG in place at the gate before the others.
B. Have a mid-level mage ready for 45 minutes soul use and abuse whenever they need her.

I didn't really get involved in the discussions at the time, but to me, the concept that they would use V while still alive was pretty much the only possibility. I get that V most likely has not realised that herself.

[Lkctgo]

Wow! Finally back to the Linear Guild.

[Firemage]

I think, the IFCC have ultimately a similar plan to the Dark One's:
Destroy the world, kill the good gods, while they're at it, and create a new world as a "paradise" for Evil. Giving humans a similar role as goblins have now, would be a nice touch.

And to make things easier for them, they create conflict, so that they can reap what others sowed.

[David Argall]

She is out of the linear guilds picture, but she is part of almost the only character development Durkon has went through, I doubt she won't be back.
We can still hope, but that scratching out is not a good sign. It is all too likely it means out of the story. Of course, it might mean merely out of the next book or two, but...

Tiamat fans seem to be in for disappointment. She seems to now be on board with the fiends' plot and thus will not be going after V.

V's alignment remains quite in dispute. While the 50-50 argues for neutral with evil leanings, it would not be difficult to put her in the good range, with a tendency to make erratic decisions that could cause a rapid fall.

So the fiendish plan is for the party and lich to battle away while Nale sneaks in and takes over? That makes the question whether we know something they don't? Or they know something we don't? Because by what we know, the fiendish plan is completely doomed... unless they just want to cause trouble, and they seem to have more detailed plans than that.

[Murdim]

:thog: YAY! THE RETURN OF PUPPIES AND ICE CREAM!! :smallbiggrin:
:nale: And of disproportionate revenges over quasi-imagined slights !

[reignofevil]

I wonder what the fiends would have done if V had destroyed Team Evil (including phylactery)? Since their stated motive is to keep the OOTS/Team Evil conflict going, Xykon's defeat would have thwarted their plans. With just a small amount of better planning, V could have done it. So, did the fiends have an ace up their sleeve(s)?

Did they have a way to intercede to guarantee Team Evil's survival? It seems that they did not, since just one more Empowered Sunbust may have been enough to finish Xykon, and while watching the events unfold in Comic 656 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) they said that they couldn't act in the mortal plane to alter the outcome (at least not directly). Nevertheless, they don't seem panicky when Xykon's phylactery is on the verge of falling into the Rift in 659 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html), just intrigued by the turn of events.

For the amount of planning that the fiends seem to be putting into their grand scheme, it seems odd that they would gamble to such a degree on the outcome of V vs Xykon. What was their guarantee that it would work?

You forget that they likely know what the MITD is, and given how immensely strong he is, didn't think xykon would really let himself almost die.
Reading through it, he was really just barely in enough danger to let himself take the advice of one of his lackeys. That isn't exactly desperate.

[motub]

Well, I'm satisfied with this as end-of-book wrapup exposition and foreshadowing.

Loved that Tiamat quite literally 'ripped Lee a new one" (or indeed 5 new ones; the various kinds of damage from the different heads, plus the scratches from the claws, was hilarious) to express the extreme seriousness of Her complaint. Also really liked the implication that She wasn't 'in' on the plan, but could relatively easily accept that a) there was such a plan in effect, and b) that there was such a plan in effect that She didn't know about, despite her presumed "high-level clearance" as a goddess.

Also also enjoyed the further implication that, to Tiamat, the Elf was irrelevant, which makes perfect sense (now that I think about it); since Tiamat was not 'in' on the plan, the whole ABD thing was just free will on the part of the players, and since the ABD didn't ask for help from her goddess as such, the fact that the ABD got creamed was just 'the breaks' and not worthy of godly revenge. But I'm sure that when the Familicide hit and T. percieved it, the first thing She exclaimed was something like "How the Hell did the Elf do that?!??!, leading to the Fiends that provided the Soul Splice that made it possible.

The Elf is now de-powered, so irrelevant to the procuring of vengeance, satisfying both those who said that Tiamat would not appear in the following book (which is now obvious), and also those who felt that Her 'restitution payment' should be somewhat significant (being that She is a goddess and all); eliminating 5x (ha! just got that) the number of "other side" dragons She has lost would have a ripple effect that would affect the OotS, if only peripherally. Even if it occurred off-strip (which it would). So I'm OK with that solution :smallsmile: But isn't She essentially shooting Herself in the foot, or isn't She the Goddess of all dragons? Well, I suppose if you've got 5 heads, you're already used to a certain level of schizophrenia, so whatever.

Think the Fiends are still lying.... I think Qarr (being something of an 'insider', both in terms of the IFCC, and in terms of being a fairly clever imp that understands Fiendish thought processes to some extent) has only penetrated Level 2 of the deep cover that shrouds their actual plan. Not that the Fiends don't want "Destructive, unnecessary conflict"-- that's always a plus for the Infernal Planes, of course. But that's like saying you're aiming to win a month-long, all expenses paid vacation to a luxury villa, when the opportunity exists to win eternal retirement to said villa. So they haven't shown their full hand yet (they wouldn't, of course, Qarr is still just an imp 'go between' at the end of the day).

I'm not particularly fond of the LG (Thog is fun, but Nale's Evil Twin schtick was pretty tedious, and Sabine didn't do much in her last appearances). I do have hope that their return will be more interesting, since a) more than half the team has been eliminated, paving the way for new and more interesting replacements (nice subtle highlight of that, btw :smallsmile:), and b) Sabine will 'clearly' have a more prominent/active role (being that she's the one who knows she's a pawn, and what she's a pawn for), c) Sabine, being 'attached' to Nale, will affect Nale as she takes a more active role in guiding the LG to their places in the Grand Scheme; and d) even if Nale continues his Evil Twin gambit, Elan has changed, so Nale will have to raise his game no matter what. Thank goodness.

That still wasn't quite up to snuff as a book-ender, though, what have we got left to do for a big finish...? Oh. Team Evil. So I guess this book will be ending in either one or possibly two more comics. Been a heck of a ride; I've really enjoyed it!

[Thanatosia]

She has been scratched from the panel, meaning she is either dead or out of their schemes permanently. I doubt she will be back.
I don't think she needs to continue to be pawn of the IFCC in order to make a return appearance, her main hook into the strip now is Durkon, not the Linear Guild.

[banjo1985]

So, the three wise red guys have a bigger plan do they? Interesting, though I'm not sure how much they can rely on 'morons' like Nale and Thog to help.

Interesting to see Hilgya scratched off the picture. Does that mean she's dead, or just out of the picture in terms of their plan?

[Twilight Jack]

I loved this strip. I always enjoy the placing of Chekov's Gun over the mantlepiece, and this strip goes a long way towards providing a nice overview of the plot to come.

It clarifies previous foreshadowing into an actual set of stated goals and creates both tension and dramatic irony in future plotlines, as we the readers now have awareness of unfolding events to which the Prime Material Players (including "Team Evil") lack even the slightest inkling.

Nothing really "happened" this strip, but a single page has just provided us with a detailed contextual roadmap of future events and their significances.

[Cleverdan22]

Man I am digging the Quarr/IFCC pages. Full of juicy exposition and plot. I'm also happy about the re-introduction of the Linear Guild.

[Morquard]

Woot, all hail the Linear Guild! I missed thier destructive unnessesary conflict!

And so much for "Ah tiamat was just a last panel joke". Sure she's not playing a major part in the story, but it wasn't completely ignored.

[fractal]

So if bringing down the gods of Good is only "technically true", and killing gods is the main thing the Snarl does, does that mean that the IFCC is actually after all the gods?

[Electron]

'...
They look like total morons.'
'They are!
isn't it just perfect?' ^^

Hilarious!

BTW, the fiends' apparent plans remind of the Burning Legion in WoW.

[Ridureyu]

Very interesting that Hilgya is crayoned out, even though there is no death confirmation for her. Maybe it's just "no longer on the team?"

[ravage]

finally,not that elan little ***hole again :smallyuk:

[Tykopulus]

*gg* the last strip rulez them all...

"They look like total marons"
"They are! Isnt that just perfect"

Brilliant :smallbiggrin:

PS: Ohhhhhm - i see strip 999 - The Order of the stick, the linear Guild, the Monster of the dark - Xyxon and Redcloack all together siege the fiendish realm to finish this idiots ^^ :smalltongue:

[TheNovak]

I didn't realize how much I missed the Linear Guild until I saw their little Dungeon Crawlin' Fools portrait. Then I actually cheered out loud :smallbiggrin:

So far, I'm batting 1.000 on my end-of-book strip predictions; one strip with V and Durkon, one strip with the fiends, and my bet for the next is a two page inspirational Roy speech, splash panel optional.

Onward, to Girard's Gate!

[Hacktor]

Great comic Giant

[Supermagle]

"... it's too much exposition for right now." :smallcool:

[Morquard]

So if bringing down the gods of Good is only "technically true", and killing gods is the main thing the Snarl does, does that mean that the IFCC is actually after all the gods?
That could be possible, or they just ommited the fact "We kill the good gods once we have the Snarl weapon and are the rulers of all gods". Which Tiamat probably wouldn't like.
They seem to acept the "kill the good dragons" term on the ground of "ok we can do that easily once we've succeeded", not "Ah well, lets accept it, its not like Tiamat will be around to complain next time".

[Nimrod's Son]

Wrong spelling of "millennia" in panel six.

[Crod]

The fiends are a bit too planning to be chaotic evil, but who said chaotic evil has to be stupid and erratic? Wonderful strip!

[Nimrod's Son]

The fiends are a bit too planning to be chaotic evil, but who said chaotic evil has to be stupid and erratic? Wonderful strip!
Only one of the fiends is chaotic. They're a collaboration between all three evil alignments.

[Querzis]

The Linear Guild is finally back! :smallbiggrin: :smallcool:

[torgum]

Yeah... awesome strip.. I like the last part.... ;)
:sabine::thog::nale:

They'll be back :)

[J.Gellert]

Hahahahahahahahahaha brilliant!

Hahaha and there I thought that the devils were actually serious :smallbiggrin:

The Linear Guild... crying from laughter...

[Haven]

Very interesting that Hilgya is crayoned out, even though there is no death confirmation for her. Maybe it's just "no longer on the team?"

The drow isn't dead either. Well, probably not...but I suppose those lawyers can be pretty vicious...

[Dark Faun]

I liked the punchline. :smalltongue:

[Ridureyu]

TYPO IN THE COMIC!


In the last panel, Qarr says "Morons" when he clearly meant "Modrons."

That is all.

[Superglucose]

I just wanted to say to the Giant:

Your control over the tempo of this story is outstanding. Not many writers have the ability to speed up and slow down the plot as fluidly as you have. Thanks for treating us to this epic, and I can't wait for the next installment!

[fractal]

That could be possible, or they just ommited the fact "We kill the good gods once we have the Snarl weapon and are the rulers of all gods". Which Tiamat probably wouldn't like.
They seem to acept the "kill the good dragons" term on the ground of "ok we can do that easily once we've succeeded", not "Ah well, lets accept it, its not like Tiamat will be around to complain next time".
Well, they also "promised" to kill the good dragons. Fiends are big on sticking to the letter of their agreements, so they might do it even if Tiamat isn't around to enforce the deal anymore.

Of course, worst case scenario, they could wait a century (assuming the "once in a century" bit is accurate) and then lend Haerta to someone to cast Familicide a few more times.

Incidentally, don't annoy the gods! (Unless you have the Snarl.) We know these fiends are really powerful, with their "advanced Time Stop" effects and such. Yellow (Cedrik?) is on his home turf now, and Tiamat still messed him up pretty badly over the phone.

Also, the fiends note that they were already putting the Soul Splice deal together when they foresaw the consequence of Vaarsuvius attacking Xykon. So we have reason to believe that they really do want his/her soul personally, not just a more motivated Xykon.

[Athaniar]

Ooh, exposition. Very good. And I was starting to miss the Linear Guild. Wonder what new members they have?

[Delgarde]

I'm hoping that since they said "fiendish", that eventually we'll find out which of them is the devil, the demon and the yugoloth. I want to go out on a limb and say the one that mentioned "destructive unecessary conflict" is the demon.

The purple one? I agree - he seems the chaotic sort. I'm guessing orange is the yugoloth - he strikes me as neutral - leaving yellow as the devil.

[dogmac]

You know, Nale..... they're including you there.

FOOL!!

[Morquard]

The purple one? I agree - he seems the chaotic sort. I'm guessing orange is the yugoloth - he strikes me as neutral - leaving yellow as the devil.
I think most people say Lee is yellow and chaotic (provided the chaotic caster), orange is a devil and lawfull good (provided LG wizard and went to devil school), and purple is the neutral one (provided necromancer girl)

[Delgarde]

So if bringing down the gods of Good is only "technically true", and killing gods is the main thing the Snarl does, does that mean that the IFCC is actually after all the gods?

My interpretation was that the technicality was that the killing of the dragons contributed to the goal of bringing down the good gods. It might have helped manipulate V a little, but really it was unnecessary collateral damage.

[Delgarde]

The drow isn't dead either. Well, probably not...but I suppose those lawyers can be pretty vicious...

Jones and Rodriguez? I wouldn't be too worried, not with their collective record of 5 victories and 147 defeats...

[Delgarde]

I think most people say Lee is yellow and chaotic (provided the chaotic caster), orange is a devil and lawfull good (provided LG wizard and went to devil school), and purple is the neutral one (provided necromancer girl)

Well, maybe we'll find out in some future comic...

[Kareasint]

The last panel was too good. Sabine is about to get a call.

[Järnblomma]

Ah, I love how this comic is coming back to it's usual style. The Order is gathered again, the linear guild is back, Team Evil is once again in trouble and the race is on!

I can't help that this makes me happy! =)

[Estelindis]

That was fantastic. The strips lately have been so good! The bit about the Linear Guild being tools was great. :smallwink: All in all, the IFCC's attitude is very sassy and amusing. :smallsmile:

But I do have to say that when they said they'd kill five good dragons for every black dragon that V killed, I felt pretty cold in my stomach. :smallfrown:

[Bastian]

She is out of the linear guilds picture, but she is part of almost the only character development Durkon has went through, I doubt she won't be back.

Granted, as David said, we can still hope.

But as far as Durkon's arrested development case, there is more food for thought available. His past is still clouded, there's the prophecy, the (true) reasons why he was (with the typical dwarven kindness) invited to leave for the human lands, etc.

More than character's development I see their meet-up more as a confirmation of Durkon's personality.

[Zanaril]

It's good to have a confirmation that Familicide was an undeniably Evil act, an one that could have pushed V's alignment down the scale.

Won't stop people debatin' it though. :smalltongue:

[Kaytara]

It's good to have a confirmation that Familicide was an undeniably Evil act, an one that could have pushed V's alignment down the scale.

Won't stop people debatin' it though. :smalltongue:

Technically, we had that confirmation back in 640 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html), where they call it a horrible act and Qarr comments on how the Splice really must have turned V evil.

You're obviously right about that last part. :P

[Tenebrais]

The impression I get here is that the stated purpose of the IFCC is to keep the comic going as long as possible. :smalltongue:

[HOLEkevin]

It sure looks destructive and unnecessary to me! :smallbiggrin:

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh boy, the return of the Linear Guild!

[[TS] Shadow]

Segway into Linear Guild time! It's been far overdue.

[sam79]

An excellent strip, that answered some questions, left some more open, and gave us a glimpse of the much-missed Linear Guild!

The past couple of strips have confirmed that both ends of the alignment spectrum in the OofS world consider V's recent activities, and the killing of the balck dragons in particular, as Evil. Whether or not we agree on this is another thing; it has been (and will continue to be) an interesting debate, but one which (in terms of the strip and its actors) is fairly irrelevant.

[Aerysil]

"That went well." as he walks in burned, frozen, acidized, electrified and uh, acidized again. Hee.

I like the way they shift and their capes swing when they are really into describing their plot.

[infiniteviking]

Wait!! I just noticed something.

(a) Qarr has yellow eyes.

(b) In the third panel, Qarr says, "Gates? What gates are you talking about?"

Whoa... just got this enormous sense of deja vu here. If only I could figure out why. :smallbiggrin:

[pflare]

I think that answers the whole where does V's soul stand question (maybe damned maybe redeemable). Also loved the Tiamat thing. Honestly I didn't clue into the fact that she'd be mad about the black dragon deaths. Yah I'm a dunce :smallwink:

[Ninja]

Who are the new LG members? Oh wait, It's actually the original cast with the Kobold guy, Zz'dtri and Hilgya crossed... with a red marker... Wait, is that Dungeon Crawlin' Fools written on that board.... goddamn it... the fiends can get the game, i can't even get the comics.... :(
Anyway, nice comic :D

[Zanaril]

Wait!! I just noticed something.

(a) Qarr has yellow eyes.

(b) In the third panel, Qarr says, "Gates? What gates are you talking about?"

Whoa... just got this enormous sense of deja vu here. If only I could figure out why. :smallbiggrin:
Shh!! You'll give it away!

So... is Qarr the MiTD from the future, or did the MiTD used to be Qarr ? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

100th post!!!
Sorry Ninja... you were ninja'd!!!


Who are the new LG members? Oh wait, It's actually the original cast with the Kobold guy, Zz'dtri and Hilgya crossed... with a red marker... Wait, is that Dungeon Crawlin' Fools written on that board.... goddamn it... the fiends can get the game, i can't even get the comics.... :(
Anyway, nice comic :D

I think it's a page torn out of the comic.

[teratorn]

But I do have to say that when they said they'd kill five good dragons for every black dragon that V killed, I felt pretty cold in my stomach. :smallfrown:

Don't worry, O-chul won't let them do it.

[Ninja]

Sorry Ninja... you were ninja'd!!!

Whatcyatakkinabout? I never posted that... and i totally did not edit my post.... ignore the fact it says it's edited... it's a lie :D

[Zanaril]

Whatcyatakkinabout? I never posted that... and i totally did not edit my post.... ignore the fact it says it's edited... it's a lie :D

They say cake is a lie, but I'm eating some right now.

[The Pilgrim]

So the Tiamat and Black Dragon's issue is settled.

[Mike_the_Mystic]

It makes So. Much. Sense.

[Callista]

This could put the Order in a difficult position. There'll be a bunch of good dragons who now have Tiamat breathing down their necks even more than usual... dragons who, for the most part, are not happy about Xykon controlling the gate (and have already had at least one of their number killed by Xykon), but who are also going to be pretty angry at somebody who's stupid enough to make an unprovoked attack on their enemies and get Tiamat riled up. If the good dragons find out exactly who V is, the Order might lose allies. And this will, of course, provoke more conflict... I begin to wonder whether the IFCC might actually have been secretly cheering at Tiamat's involvement.


Shadow;6462641']Segway into Linear Guild time! It's been far overdue.

Augggh! My spelling-obsessed brain!

Segue.

S-E-G-U-E.

Now write that out ten times and you can go to recess...

[Random832]

/puts 20GP on the table

Next strip will feature Elan; the one after that will have the montage and splash.

Any takers?

[Holammer]

The page ripped from Dungeon Crawling Fools was a nice touch. For a second I thought (hoped?) it was a hint at a new book. Turns out it is from page #44 from the book. :smallwink:
Hoping to see more of the LG folks now. The Linear Guild that is, not Lawful Good.

[garylian]

Now that was interesting! And I love the imp. "They look like morons!"

Even the 3 hoodies could see how easy it would be to manipulate V through power.

[Scarlet Knight]

Did they have a way to intercede to guarantee Team Evil's survival?

Hmmm. It's seem that it wasn't MiTD that saved V & O-Chul, but the 3 fiends in order to keep both sides fighting.

[dshupp]

I'm shocked that the Giant would sell off his artistic integrity for such an obvious product placement. :smallwink:

[DigoDragon]

The first and last panels are the best quotes in a long time for me.

"You know, That went about as well as could be expected." :smallbiggrin:

[seanearlyaug]

So now we have a force for our continuing reading pleasure.
The Evil is good.
Sean

[Elder Wraith]

Why is my (half)-orky sense tingling?

[Yul]

Yay, Linear Guild!!!!!!!

[Waggy]

When I saw the Linear Guild panal I couldn't help but go "Dunh dunh DUNH!"

[Zanaril]

Technically, we had that confirmation back in 640 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html), where they call it a horrible act and Qarr comments on how the Splice really must have turned V evil.

I meant that this time it was actually spelt out, instead of just unsubtly implied. :smallsigh:

[kamuishirou]

Yes!! finally first page post, I have gotten so close so many times, yet there are so many ninjas:smalleek:. Haven't even read the comic yet.

Then why post if you haven't read the comic yet? I thought the whole 'first post' thing was frowned down upon?

Oh well, congratulations on the internet win for you! :)

Awesome comic! I love the little word comics with a lot of action and always find entertaining the long wordy explination ones. :) I love these guys! They're just awesome! 84% chance of V attacking Xykon. Awesome!

edit: Page 4 FTW! ;)

[Zevox]

Nice - a good combination of funny and not-too-revealing foreshadowing/exposition. I particularly liked those last couple of jokes about the Linear Guild.

Also, further confirmation that V's casting Familicide was, in fact, a very evil act. Maybe that'll shut up some of the people who insist that it couldn't be simply because the Dragons were evil.

Looking forward to the next comic. Hopefully we only have one more end-of-book comic to go before the next story arc begins. Or at least any further end-of-book comics will be as amusing as this one.

Zevox

[Jarawara]

Hmmm... I wasn't as impressed.

Foreshadowing the Linear Guild is an obvious one, (and yes, I remember Sabine talking to them way back when), but I don't think this strip should have focused on them. It made them look like the main attraction, and I really don't believe they are. I mean, jeez... those LG guys *are* morons!

I think the real plot that was being told here was that the trio of bad guys (what's their moniker again? IFCC?), are trying to open the gates and bring forth the Snarl. Some supporting quotes:

"I managed to convince her that it was part of a secret scheme to bring down the gods of good."

"I promised her that five good dragons would die for every one black that died today" --- "Not a problem. If our plans for the gates works, such a slaughter would be trivial."

Yeah... if the Snarl gets loose, the gods of good will be brought down (as well as the neutral and evil ones). Killing a bunch of good dragons will certainly be trivial by comparison (and technically, be nothing more than a side effect of the earth being destroyed).

This makes the three of them to be the worst possible evil imaginable (and given that they can control V at some point in the future, the worst possible threat imaginable). Xykon pales by comparison. Even Redcloak, who also wants to open the gates, has an altruistic reason for it. But the IFCC, the 'Trio of Ultimate Evil' just firmly established themselves as the greatest threat to sentient life everywhere.

And how do they plan to enact this threat? By unleashing the magnificient power of... the Linear Guild???

"Hey, I got a capital idea! There's this gate that could destroy all of creation, killing every last lifeform on the planet in a single whiff of breath. So let's lure the OOTS and the LG into the same room together and let them duke it out!" "Great idea, I'll bring the popcorn!"

Yeah... No. That just fell flat for me. I mean, those LG guys are MORONS. Why would the trio of Evil make any plans whatsoever involving them??

I liked the Dungeon Crawling Fools splashpage in the background, but I think they should have just walked past it, thereby implying to the reader that the LG will be making a return, but the IFCC should have kept focus on the real goal of unleashing the Snarl (or if it's a more complicated goal than that, at least show focus towards whatever that might have been). Instead, turning the focus on the LG just... I dunno how to say it, it just was a letdown.

Only an fool would want a moron as an ally. Are we to now assume that the IFCC is really the 'Trio of Ultimate Fools'?

[Yiuel]

I could fail to notice how all this pushes towards a Thirty Xanatos Pileup (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirtyXanatosPileup) trope (Or, at least, the Roulette). You have Redcloak's goal, Eugene's petty wish, and now the IFCC's. They are probably more intelligent than most of the characters involved.

[Tenek]

Only an fool would want a moron as an ally. Are we to now assume that the IFCC is really the 'Trio of Ultimate Fools'?

But would you accept a moron as a pawn?

At least Roy's question will be of some use now.

[Klivian]

Woah! The Giant slipped! We finally know what the MitD is:

Qarr: Gates? What gates are you talking about?

[Selene]

Hmmm. It's seem that it wasn't MiTD that saved V & O-Chul, but the 3 fiends in order to keep both sides fighting.

What makes you say that? When they thought V might die, the fiends specifically said they couldn't interfere in the mortal plane.

[Klivian]

I think most people say Lee is yellow and chaotic (provided the chaotic caster), orange is a devil and lawfull good (provided LG wizard and went to devil school), and purple is the neutral one (provided necromancer girl)

LEe
NEro
CEdrik

Which one is which color I leave to more observant folks

Edit: Lee is the yellow one, confirmed in This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)

[Zevox]

I think the real plot that was being told here was that the trio of bad guys (what's their moniker again? IFCC?), are trying to open the gates and bring forth the Snarl. Some supporting quotes:

"I managed to convince her that it was part of a secret scheme to bring down the gods of good."

"I promised her that five good dragons would die for every one black that died today" --- "Not a problem. If our plans for the gates works, such a slaughter would be trivial."
And why on earth would you think that? Those quotes merely indicate that their plans involve the destruction of the good gods (which we knew was likely ever since they spelled out their long-term goals for V) and will grant them a lot of power. Simply releasing the Snarl, though, would be idiotic on their part - essentially suicide. They'd get everything destroyed, themselves included; and even if they had a way to escape it, there'd be no more souls for them to collect, nothing left for them to rule, control, or destroy. Unless they're nihilists (and they sure as hell don't seem like they are), they couldn't possibly want simply to release the Snarl.


Even Redcloak, who also wants to open the gates,
No, he doesn't. *SoD spoiler*
He wants to take control of one so that the Dark One can use it as a bargaining chip - able to move it to the home planes of the other gods at will and open it just enough to let the Snarl reach out and destroy anything nearby. With such a threat he intends to force them to give Goblins a better life in the world.

Opening the Gates is the last thing Redcloak wants. If that happens, the only consolation he has is that the Dark One will most likely be able to make sure that Goblins don't get the short end of the stick when the gods construct a third world. Assuming they manage to escape the Snarl this time.


And how do they plan to enact this threat? By unleashing the magnificient power of... the Linear Guild???
Of course not - they all but said the Linear Guild is just a distraction. "Destructive, unnecessary conflict," remember? "The same thing that has held the fiendish races back for all these millenia" (i.e. the Blood War)? The whole point is that they're using the struggle over the gates by the mortal factions as a distraction to keep any other side from gaining control of a gate while they enact whatever their real plan is. The Linear Guild just enhances that distraction.

Zevox

[spargel]

Does anyone else feel that those three fiends have omniscience?

[Sengoku]

The Linear Guild back in action!!!!!!:smallbiggrin:

I was looking forward to it from years!!:smalltongue:

[Cuthbertson]

Mwuhahaha! Great strip featuring the fiends!

I especially liked the flaming Ms. Tiamat gave the Director (over the phone, no less!) Five Good Dragons for each black one killed? Oh Boy! :smalleek:

Excellent to see the Giant finding a way to write Nale and the crew back into the storyline and also providing some great background to the strings being pulled behind the scenes.

"They look like total morons!" [priceless] :nale: :thog: :sabine:

[Optimystik]

I could fail to notice how all this pushes towards a Thirty Xanatos Pileup (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirtyXanatosPileup) trope (Or, at least, the Roulette). You have Redcloak's goal, Eugene's petty wish, and now the IFCC's. They are probably more intelligent than most of the characters involved.

They definitely are, but are hamstrung by their inability to influence events directly. Unfortunately for our heroes, this is a limitation they are about to overcome.


Also, further confirmation that V's casting Familicide was, in fact, a very evil act. Maybe that'll shut up some of the people who insist that it couldn't be simply because the Dragons were evil.

We can only hope, Zev.

[fruityjanitor]

Even though I pretty much knew they were controlling the Linear Guild from the start, the "big reveal" in this strip was still pretty cool!

"They Are! Isn't it just perfect?" was awesome too. :smallbiggrin:

Glad to see that Rich says that V's casting of Familicide on a family of Evil creatures was considered an Evil act. It has been said in a few other strips too, but it's good to know that he doesn't think killing dozens of Evil creatures on a whim is a Good act. And even though it seems they managed to calm down Tiamat, I wouldn't be surprised if V still has dragon problems in the future though.

Perhaps some of the dragons who weren't a close enough relation to Mama Dragon to be killed by the spell but were close enough to have their own relatives die come for her - or maybe Tiamat decides to send something after her even though she said she just wanted tons of good dragons slaughtered to make up for it...

I wouldn't say it's definitely going to happen, but it's a possibility.

[Zanaril]

Does anyone else feel that those three fiends have omniscience?

Are you kidding? They could use that TV of theirs to make the mother of all reality TV shows.



And even though it seems they managed to calm down Tiamat, I wouldn't be surprised if V still has dragon problems in the future though.

I think only the IFCC is off the hook; they're not gonna get fried, frozen and dissolved, but nothing's been said about the elf.

[T-O-E]

It's pretty rare for me to laugh at a webcomic but I did. The last panel is so good.

[Zevox]

Does anyone else feel that those three fiends have omniscience?
Er, no. Even the gods don't seem to be omniscient in this world. Hell, the fiends had to have Sabine bring the gates to their attention, remember?

Zevox

[Super_slash2]

Finally the return of The Linear Guild! And Nale isn't a moron, just unlucky. Thog though.....

Can't wait for the next one and the advance to the next gate.

[Yoyoyo]

I think only the IFCC is off the hook; they're not gonna get fried, frozen and dissolved, but nothing's been said about the elf.

But if Tiamat or other dragons take out V, doesn't that ruin the IFCC's plan? I suspect that the IFCC assured Tiamat that V will be dealt with (or made available to the dragons) after she serves the IFCC.

As for IFCC using the LG, the LG may be (loveable) morons, but they are motivated morons who are looking to mess with OOTS and interfere with their plans. IFCC wants to keep the fight going, so the LG seems perfectly suited for that and makes them more appropriate for the ICC's purposes than an effective counterpart who would stop OOTS.

Great comic Giant.

[Woodsman]

Well, I really do hope the OotS can pull this off (and I think it's safe to say they will).

The "Gates? What gates are you talking about?" inevitably reminded me of :mitd: But I believe that was Mr. Burlew's point. :smalltongue:

[Beren]

Alright, I guess I'm missing something here. So the fiends wanted V and Xykon to fight in order to get Xykon moving again, but their plans would've been seriously messed up had either V or Xykon been actually killed. Also, the IFCC are unable to intervene in any way other than to make deals?

If so, they were incredibly lucky neither V nor Xykon were killed, and they were incredibly stupid for taking that much of a risk. If they're able to predict that V was 84% likely to attack Xykon, they should have been able to predict the 90+% chance that one side or the other was NOT going to walk away from the fight. (Or heck, maybe it was a 99.9999% chance, and as everyone knows, a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing.) There have been plenty of debates about who *should* have won, and if I were a betting man, I don't know which side I would've taken, but who the f@&% would be out of their mind enough to bet against the proposition that SOMEONE is going to win and get rid of the other?

[sankai]

The suspense deepens.

Oh, and i like how the fiend looks after being breath attacked by tiamat. Hilarious!

[spargel]

Er, no. Even the gods don't seem to be omniscient in this world. Hell, the fiends had to have Sabine bring the gates to their attention, remember?

Zevox

I wouldn't expect them to take a risk like that without knowing more than they should. The chances of both V and Xykon walking away alive were pretty small, and the fiends seem to need both of them to live.

[Optimystik]

I wouldn't expect them to take a risk like that without knowing more than they should. The chances of both V and Xykon walking away alive were pretty small, and the fiends seem to need both of them to live.

"Knowing more than they should" is a few shades shy of "omniscient." (How do you define what they "should" know, anyway?)

[spargel]

"Knowing more than they should" is a few shades shy of "omniscient." (How do you define what they "should" know, anyway?)

Mostly their mind reading skills.

[TreesOfDeath]

So I'm confused, the IFCC talk about causing meaningless conflict, because thats what they do, but how do they expect to pay back Tiamat?
Unless their planning to unleash the snarl and let it destroy the world, which certainly would work. Is that their goal?

[spargel]

I'm more confused with their inconsistencies. The last few strips showed that they needed the elf's soul for their plan, and now they're saying it's not really important.

[Optimystik]

Mostly their mind reading skills.

Predicting that an egomaniac given power will become a megalomaniac isn't much of a leap for anyone, much less people that have an entire stable of megalomaniacs to study. It grants them a great deal of perspective, but they don't know everything.


I'm more confused with their inconsistencies. The last few strips showed that they needed the elf's soul for their plan, and now they're saying it's not really important.

What they mean is that the ultimate destination of his soul isn't really important to them. I think they need his body more (to influence the material plane directly), and being able to control his soul is just an access point.

[Olorin Maia]

There have been plenty of debates about who *should* have won, and if I were a betting man, I don't know which side I would've taken, but who the f@&% would be out of their mind enough to bet against the proposition that SOMEONE is going to win and get rid of the other?

I agree completely. It seems incredibly inane that they would figure that a) if V won Xykon wouldn't have been killed, and also as crazy if Xykon won and didn't finish V off. Maybe they were expecting Xykon to offer V the same deal he did to Roy, and allow her to become his nemesis? I don't know, I think the whole thing is ridiculous.

[Blaznak]

Enjoyable diversion. Evil sure is devious! I like the desire to keep the status quo ending up being a vile plot!
Later!

[FoE]

I'll note that Nale is already on his way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) to one of the Gates.

[factotum]

I agree completely. It seems incredibly inane that they would figure that a) if V won Xykon wouldn't have been killed, and also as crazy if Xykon won and didn't finish V off. Maybe they were expecting Xykon to offer V the same deal he did to Roy, and allow her to become his nemesis? I don't know, I think the whole thing is ridiculous.

Well, if V lost they'd have been down a pawn, true, but it still would have had the desired effect of getting Xykon off his butt and on to the next gate. Bit harder to figure out what they expected to happen if V *won*, but I suppose their psych profile also told them he'd likely go off half-cocked and would thus be very unlikely to win.

In any case, they didn't really have much of a choice in the matter. There wasn't any other way they could get Xykon moving, and that would leave Girard's Gate open to the OotS. I also get the impression the fiends aren't revealing their entire plan to Qarr anyway--why should they? He's a low-HD underling, after all.

[Omegonthesane]

I think most people say Lee is yellow and chaotic (provided the chaotic caster)
Or Lee is Lawful, and they mixed up who gets which soul as part of their mission statement of uniting the Lower Planes.


orange is a devil and lawfull good (provided LG wizard and went to devil school), and purple is the neutral one (provided necromancer girl)
There are no "good" members of IFCC. Pretty much by definition. And Ganonron was clearly Lawful Evil.


Well, if V lost they'd have been down a pawn, true, but it still would have had the desired effect of getting Xykon off his butt and on to the next gate. Bit harder to figure out what they expected to happen if V *won*, but I suppose their psych profile also told them he'd likely go off half-cocked and would thus be very unlikely to win.

In any case, they didn't really have much of a choice in the matter. There wasn't any other way they could get Xykon moving, and that would leave Girard's Gate open to the OotS. I also get the impression the fiends aren't revealing their entire plan to Qarr anyway--why should they? He's a low-HD underling, after all.
I thought they explicitly said they needed V to walk out of the Xykon fight alive, and that they didn't technically plan for him to attack Xykon (it was merely very helpful to them). As for both V and X coming out alive... my guess is that that's how the evil trio's ludicrous INT stats are manifested in this strip. Isn't INT > 18 meant to be beyond human capacity to achieve without magical assistance?

[Krakes]

Hmmm... I wasn't as impressed.



Yeah... No. That just fell flat for me. I mean, those LG guys are MORONS. Why would the trio of Evil make any plans whatsoever involving them??

I liked the Dungeon Crawling Fools splashpage in the background, but I think they should have just walked past it, thereby implying to the reader that the LG will be making a return, but the IFCC should have kept focus on the real goal of unleashing the Snarl (or if it's a more complicated goal than that, at least show focus towards whatever that might have been). Instead, turning the focus on the LG just... I dunno how to say it, it just was a letdown.

Only an fool would want a moron as an ally. Are we to now assume that the IFCC is really the 'Trio of Ultimate Fools'?

O.K, first, this is a comedy strip, so let's not get too carried away with the thoughtful planning here. Second, remember that Sabine works for the IFCC, and is in the best position to carry out a plan on their behalf. Third, the LG are clearly cannon fodder for the IFCC- they don't want anyone too clever who (like the OOTS or Team Evil) has their own agenda and the ability to actually be effective on their own. Besides, if all anyone sees is the LG, it can mask the involvement of the IFCC, which is crucial at this stage- if anyone found out, the gods might step in, or we could even get a whacky team-up between the OOTS and Team Evil to defeat the greater threat.

[Zevox]

I wouldn't expect them to take a risk like that without knowing more than they should. The chances of both V and Xykon walking away alive were pretty small, and the fiends seem to need both of them to live.
So rather than assume they simply took a gamble on the only real option they had (they can't affect the material plane except when making deals, remember?), you'd rather assume they're omniscient - something which there is explicit evidence against? :smallconfused:

Hell, it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to assume that V would lose and Xykon would capture her rather than kill her. He was going to do that up until she helped nearly destroy, and ultimately caused Xykon to lose, his phylactery, after all. V's stay with him wouldn't be pleasant, but she'd live.

Zevox

[TBone]

Quality comic. glad to see the linear guild on the move again!

[spargel]

So rather than assume they simply took a gamble on the only real option they had (they can't affect the material plane except when making deals, remember?), you'd rather assume they're omniscient - something which there is explicit evidence against? :smallconfused:

Hell, it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to assume that V would lose and Xykon would capture her rather than kill her. He was going to do that up until she helped nearly destroy, and ultimately caused Xykon to lose, his phylactery, after all. V's stay with him wouldn't be pleasant, but she'd live.

Zevox

There's also a pretty fair chance V would have completely obliterated Xykon, which would ruin their plans completely.

[David Argall]

Alright, I guess I'm missing something here. So the fiends wanted V and Xykon to fight in order to get Xykon moving again, but their plans would've been seriously messed up had either V or Xykon been actually killed. Also, the IFCC are unable to intervene in any way other than to make deals?

If so, they were incredibly lucky neither V nor Xykon were killed, and they were incredibly stupid for taking that much of a risk. If they're able to predict that V was 84% likely to attack Xykon, they should have been able to predict the 90+% chance that one side or the other was NOT going to walk away from the fight. (Or heck, maybe it was a 99.9999% chance, and as everyone knows, a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing.) There have been plenty of debates about who *should* have won, and if I were a betting man, I don't know which side I would've taken, but who the f@&% would be out of their mind enough to bet against the proposition that SOMEONE is going to win and get rid of the other?
Working on metagame knowledge, it was a leadpipe cinch, and a great many of us assumed it as well. In story, Elan would certainly tell the others it was certain to happen.
The details could have varied widely, but essentially, Xykon has been dodging adventuring parties for over 80 years, which means he has learned to have one more bolthole than the good guys expect. And despite being the oldest party member, V has the least adventuring experience, which means she may not even remember about the phylactery, much less about other escapes Xykon would have.
So the fiends likely expected that V would barge in and beat up Xykon, who would have some way to escape and survive. Dislodged from the city, Xykon heads for the gate. And when it is too late, V discovers his escape, so the party has to follow.
Given they expected a 1/6 chance that V would not attack Xykon at all, the plan is on the dubious side. But the odds of success seem to be quite substantial.



It's good to have a confirmation that Familicide was an undeniably Evil act, an one that could have pushed V's alignment down the scale.

Won't stop people debatin' it though.
The strip establishes that it is evil, in comic. However the debate is whether an actual casting like this would be evil, either in a generic D&D world, or a real one. For either of these, the strip is no more than a posting on a thread, and not a privileged opinion from on high.

[Optimystik]

Only an fool would want a moron as an ally. Are we to now assume that the IFCC is really the 'Trio of Ultimate Fools'?

No, because "ally" and "pawn" are two very different concepts.

[Red XIV]

They just want conflict? That seems doubtful to me. Sure they don't want either of those two sides to win, but I'm sure that they want to win.
A "win" for the IFCC means the biggest conflict of all time: all-out war between all the lower planes and all the upper planes.


Hmmm. It's seem that it wasn't MiTD that saved V & O-Chul, but the 3 fiends in order to keep both sides fighting.
No, it absolutely was MitD. I don't see how there can be any doubt about this.

[nybbler]

I could fail to notice how all this pushes towards a Thirty Xanatos Pileup (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirtyXanatosPileup) trope (Or, at least, the Roulette). You have Redcloak's goal, Eugene's petty wish, and now the IFCC's. They are probably more intelligent than most of the characters involved.

There's not many Xanatos Gambits going on here. The Fiends used it against Vaarsuvius, but neither Xykon, Redcloak, nor the good guys are trying to pull one off. Nale pulled one off in Cliffport, but that's long past.

(For those who don't know, in the language of TV Tropes, a Xanatos Gambit is when side A arranges it so that side B, in the process of what they think is thwarting side A's plan, actually furthers it instead. Classical gods like to do this sort of thing, just ask anyone who tried to beat a prophecy. Xanatos Roulette is when everyone is doing it to everyone else, and a Thirty Xanatos Pileup is when it gets completely out of hand)

[RMS Oceanic]

Your last two definitions are inaccurate: Xanatos Roulette is when the gambit executor has planned for details that it appears they couldn't possibly have planned for, while a Thirty Xanatos Pileup is when several Xanatos Gambits/Roulettes are being executed by multiple people. Good example: Death Note.

[Knaight]

I think most people say Lee is yellow and chaotic (provided the chaotic caster), orange is a devil and lawfull good (provided LG wizard and went to devil school), and purple is the neutral one (provided necromancer girl)

The general theory is that Lee is lawful evil, Nero neutral evil, and Cedrik chaotic evil. The theory that there is a lawful good one is dubious at best.

[Roszlishan]

I wonder what the fiends would have done if V had destroyed Team Evil (including phylactery)? Since their stated motive is to keep the OOTS/Team Evil conflict going, Xykon's defeat would have thwarted their plans. With just a small amount of better planning, V could have done it. So, did the fiends have an ace up their sleeve(s)?

Did they have a way to intercede to guarantee Team Evil's survival? It seems that they did not, since just one more Empowered Sunbust may have been enough to finish Xykon, and while watching the events unfold in Comic 656 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) they said that they couldn't act in the mortal plane to alter the outcome (at least not directly). Nevertheless, they don't seem panicky when Xykon's phylactery is on the verge of falling into the Rift in 659 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html), just intrigued by the turn of events.

For the amount of planning that the fiends seem to be putting into their grand scheme, it seems odd that they would gamble to such a degree on the outcome of V vs Xykon. What was their guarantee that it would work?

Also, why were they concerned that V would die in 656 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)? Xykon had probably gotten his "motivation" to get back on track with his plans even before the phylactery fiasco, and even if V died, the rest of the OOTS would still be hot on Team Evil's trail, perhaps even more so out of desire to avenge V.

Presumably because what they get from V. - approximately 25 minutes of V's existence - is critical to their plans. Recall they can collect their due at their convenience.

Cheers,
Rosz

[sealemon]

And so we get a peek at the IFC's true goal...very nice. Wheels Within Wheels plots always make me happy.

[Bibliomancer]

Well, I guess this confirms that the Linear Guild is working for the IFCC. This was a very quote heavy comic. Some of my favorites include:

*enters, looking like he got run over by a train with wheels that overcome his DR* "You know, that went about as well as could be expected."
[note that this also confirms that the yellow one is LE, because he got beaten up by Tiamat, a LE god]

and

"They look like total morons."
"They are! Isn't it just perfect?"

[HuntedWalrus]

Qarr is just an imp- a messenger. He pretty much only knows what's told him, whic is why he's there- We'd never have had the conversation explaining more about the IFCC if they didn't have someone new to be explaining things to. It's a plot device, not the MitD.

[On a side note, I have two theories on him: If the eyes being different sizes are like Roy's boots being different sizes, it doesn't matter, and he's a toddler-equivalent Giant. That explains his magic use, his Medium size, his strength, his personality and behavior. If the eyes being different sizes DOES mean something, however, he'd be a Fomorian, which are the same size.]

[Sir_Norbert]

Always nice to see a new OOTS comic, but after this one my eyes are not thanking you.

Seriously, I had to peer and squint at the screen to read it, and after about ten long and painful minutes I eventually managed to make out every word except one -- I think Xykon sat on his "railoore" for months, and that isn't a word.

Am I the only one who had this problem?

[Thalnawr]

The general theory is that Lee is lawful evil, Nero neutral evil, and Cedrik chaotic evil. The theory that there is a lawful good one is dubious at best.

I don't buy it. Lee (the yellow one) was shown to be in charge of Sabine in panel 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html). Given the relative newness of the IFCC in general, I don't think a CE Succubus would willingly take instructions from a LE Devil. Then of course there's the evidence of Orange (not sure on name) being the LE Devil, due to his old college buddies.

[Random832]

Always nice to see a new OOTS comic, but after this one my eyes are not thanking you.

Seriously, I had to peer and squint at the screen to read it, and after about ten long and painful minutes I eventually managed to make out every word except one -- I think Xykon sat on his "railoore" for months, and that isn't a word.

Am I the only one who had this problem?

I've had problems with the contrast on the Fiends' speech bubbles too.

It's pretty readable if you paste it into mspaint and invert colors. I assume there's some way to fiddle with the levels or curves or histogram or something in photoshop to make it more readable without inverting, but as a quick fix just to read the text it works fine.

[fractal]

I've had problems with the contrast on the Fiends' speech bubbles too.

It's pretty readable if you paste it into mspaint and invert colors. I assume there's some way to fiddle with the levels or curves or histogram or something in photoshop to make it more readable without inverting, but as a quick fix just to read the text it works fine.
It's perfectly readable on my computer. My notebook's contrast is just whatever the factory default is.

[Slimslamer]

THIS CONFIRMS EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Honestly though, this is a nice comic to help elaborate what's going on. I do have on question though, how would the Order Winning against Xykon. (Or perhaps I missed the point?)

[JoseB]

Always nice to see a new OOTS comic, but after this one my eyes are not thanking you.

Seriously, I had to peer and squint at the screen to read it, and after about ten long and painful minutes I eventually managed to make out every word except one -- I think Xykon sat on his "railoore" for months, and that isn't a word.

Am I the only one who had this problem?

Xykon sat on his tailbone for months.

FWIW, I didn't have any problem in particular reading the strip. Standard laptop (MacBook Pro), nothing particularly special about the screen settings.

Just my 2 eurocent!

[Allan Surgite]

This strip is clearly not for the colour-blind among us.

[Deliverance]

*enters, looking like he got run over by a train with wheels that overcome his DR* "You know, that went about as well as could be expected."
[note that this also confirms that the yellow one is LE, because he got beaten up by Tiamat, a LE god]

Errr, no. It confirms nothing but that the yellow one got beaten up by Tiamat because he was the one who answered the phone.

[Cryssandra]

This strip is clearly not for the colour-blind among us.


Haha That's true...

On my own note. What could they have in store for the Linear Guild?

[Silverain]

I still don't exactly get what they're planning, but I'm interested in finding out.

One thing confuses me, though. Why did the yellow-voiced fiend (owner of the CE sorceror, if I remember right) have to be the one to talk down Tiamat? Wasn't it the purple-voiced NE fiend who owned Haerta's soul? Why didn't he take responsibility, since it was his ... um, ward, who cast the spell?

[Tobimaro]

Well, I guess this confirms that the Linear Guild is working for the IFCC. This was a very quote heavy comic. Some of my favorites include:

I would think that Sabine is the only one that would be working for the IFCC. Nale would be insulted if he knew that, instead of being a major villain, he is nothing more than a pawn. Thog...is Thog. :smallbiggrin:


I'll note that Nale is already on his way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) to one of the Gates.

And thus we find out just how easy it is for the IFCC to manipulate the Linear Guild. All they need to do is to place an ice cream parlor near Girard's Gate. :smallwink:

[Carnivorous M.]

(My reactions to the latest comic, in order:)

So the IFCC show their true chessmaster colors at last...

Wait, what? Only a 50/50 chance? Well, actually, shi may end up saving the world, so...

YAY LINEAR GUILD IS BACK

Crap, I just realized I haven't eaten all day! -inhales a plate of cream cheese enchiladas-

[Super_slash2]

I agree completely. It seems incredibly inane that they would figure that a) if V won Xykon wouldn't have been killed, and also as crazy if Xykon won and didn't finish V off. Maybe they were expecting Xykon to offer V the same deal he did to Roy, and allow her to become his nemesis? I don't know, I think the whole thing is ridiculous.

You're making two mistakes here.

V doesn't represent the whole of the Order Of The Stick. If they knew V died to Xykon that would be enough to motivate them, even if out of loyalty to a fallen comrade. V's death wouldn't do much other than terminate the contract, reducing the time they can use his/her/its soul for. Which seems to be important but not as important as point 3 I'll mention later.

Xykon is a lich and V is useless at any divine magic. If V killed Xykon, he'll regenerate from the phylactery. If V did win, then he'd have to kill Red Cloak for the plan to actually die out. And this is assuming that the cloak was destroyed (if that's possible) and Red Cloak cannot be resurrected by anyone the goblins have access to.

The Plan might have fallen apart if V had lost before getting rid of the phylactery because up until then, Xykon didn't think of V as a threat. Meaning that he would not (and didn't) switch to Full Power Mode : On. He would have been a random defeated enemy without having done anything really lasting.

So, while the outcome might have been indeterminate, that doesn't mean it wasn't likely that their purposes would have been served regardless.

Also, Nale isn't stupid. :( Stop calling him a moron. :(

[spargel]

You're making two mistakes here.

V doesn't represent the whole of the Order Of The Stick. If they knew V died to Xykon that would be enough to motivate them, even if out of loyalty to a fallen comrade. V's death wouldn't do much other than terminate the contract, reducing the time they can use his/her/its soul for. Which seems to be important but not as important as point 3 I'll mention later.


There's a mistake here. The fiends specifically stated that their plans would fail if V died, even after the soul splice wore off.



Xykon is a lich and V is useless at any divine magic. If V killed Xykon, he'll regenerate from the phylactery. If V did win, then he'd have to kill Red Cloak for the plan to actually die out. And this is assuming that the cloak was destroyed (if that's possible) and Red Cloak cannot be resurrected by anyone the goblins have access to.


There's a fair chance of that happening.

[Ya Ta Hey!]

These IFCC guys are my new favorite villains. I think...

:smallcool:
"Move, Lich!
Get out the way,
Get out the way,
Get out the way!

Move, Lich!
etc."

[drakokirby]

Yes! Things are once again back to getting interesting. Wonder if they recruited new people who just got stronger...

[Super_slash2]

There's a mistake here. The fiends specifically stated that their plans would fail if V died, even after the soul splice wore off.


Yes, before V made it clear that he/she/it wasn't just a random wizard and had actually threatened Xykon's well-being by destroying the phylactery. If V had died before motivating Xykon at all, then it would be as if she was never there, which would be a waste of time.



There's a fair chance of that happening.

While I don't know what exactly you're referring to, my point is that quite alot has to happen for The Plan to irrevocably fail. It's a better-than-average chance that V won't destroy a) Xykon, b) Red Cloak, c) the phylactery, d) The Cloak and e) the minions. At the time of the deal, I don't think they counted on O-Chul's participation but even so, Xykon was certainly capable of defending himself. And this is without Tsukiko fighting as well. So, I feel that even allowing for V to beat Xykon wouldn't hurt Team Evil's chances as much. And it would still motivate Xykon when/if he re-appeared.

[Pyron]

I'm surprised Qarr didn't recognize or make any specific mention about Nale.

[ChaosDefender24]

Despite the thing with the names, this comic shows even more evidence that Lee, who commands the succubus Sabine, is a demon.

He comes back from the meeting with Tiamat with plain signs of cold, acid, and fire damage, but no show of electricity damage (however that would be portrayed). Devils are immune to fire. Yugoloths are immune to acid. Demons are immune to electricity.

[Porthos]

I'm surprised Qarr didn't recognize or make any specific mention about Nale.

Why would he? :smallconfused:

[DBear]

Because Qaar definitely knows Elan, and may have noticed Nale was an evil twin.

[Haven]

Because Qaar definitely knows Elan, and may have noticed Nale was an evil twin.

That's probably part of what his opinion "they look like morons" was based on.

[waterpenguin43]

Wait didn't Sabine talk to these guys way back when?

Yep, that was what they meant by: Most of them aren't aware.

[waterpenguin43]

Despite the thing with the names, this comic shows even more evidence that Lee, who commands the succubus Sabine, is a demon.

He comes back from the meeting with Tiamat with plain signs of cold, acid, and fire damage, but no show of electricity damage (however that would be portrayed). Devils are immune to fire. Yugoloths are immune to acid. Demons are immune to electricity.

They are all resistant (but not immune) to cold, too bad for him he isn't an obyrith (resistant to all):smallbiggrin:.

[Sijo]

Hey look! We got the all-infernal post after all, only two issues late! :smallbiggrin:

OK, who's who again? Color coding is no help without a guide.

I'm surprised that the IFCC, whose goal was supposedly "uniting the lower planes" are actually working for causing conflict. Not that I expected them not to lie, mind you; just that I don't see how that helps them, or why they would join forces in the first place. They sound more like bored OotS fans and less like infernal masterminds (maybe that's the joke. :smalltongue:)

Oh, and why are they ranting all of this to the imp? I know they needed someone they could "explain" things to so *we* could also learn about them, but the imp hardly seems to deserve such knowledge.

Oh, and while I doubt V's soul is damned yet, I'll bet he'll be in a sticky situation later- but then, that's why he has good friends for. :smallwink:

[infiniteviking]

Woah! The Giant slipped! We finally know what the MitD is:

Qarr: Gates? What gates are you talking about?


The "Gates? What gates are you talking about?" inevitably reminded me of :mitd: But I believe that was Mr. Burlew's point. :smalltongue:


Shh!! You'll give it away!

So... is Qarr the MiTD from the future, or did the MiTD used to be Qarr ? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

Our numbers have increased. Do we get a fanclub now? :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

[On a side note, I have two theories on him: If the eyes being different sizes are like Roy's boots being different sizes, it doesn't matter, and he's a toddler-equivalent Giant. That explains his magic use, his Medium size, his strength, his personality and behavior. If the eyes being different sizes DOES mean something, however, he'd be a Fomorian, which are the same size.]

Well, EVERYONE in the strip has different-sized eyes, so I don't think we can actually determine anything from that feature...

[Selene]

Despite the thing with the names, this comic shows even more evidence that Lee, who commands the succubus Sabine, is a demon.

He comes back from the meeting with Tiamat with plain signs of cold, acid, and fire damage, but no show of electricity damage (however that would be portrayed). Devils are immune to fire. Yugoloths are immune to acid. Demons are immune to electricity.

Nice catch, Uncle Phil! :smallwink:


Oh, and why are they ranting all of this to the imp? I know they needed someone they could "explain" things to so *we* could also learn about them, but the imp hardly seems to deserve such knowledge.

They're not ranting. they're bragging. It's like safe monologuing because there's no good guy around.

[Zanaril]

I'm surprised that the IFCC, whose goal was supposedly "uniting the lower planes" are actually working for causing conflict. Not that I expected them not to lie, mind you; just that I don't see how that helps them, or why they would join forces in the first place. They sound more like bored OotS fans and less like infernal masterminds (maybe that's the joke. :smalltongue:)

They want conflict for eveybody else.

[Mr. Pin]

Aw, HELL yes.


I wonder just how direct the fiendish backing to the linear guild is. are they controlling Nale's actions or just sitting back and watching? Maybe Nale even has one of the gates already; they've had months in which to do it, and bunglers though they are, they have a lot of power. They're shaping up to be much bigger players than I had anticipated, and this brings up the unsettling question: What will they do when the order wins? Will they be content to watch their victims have a happily ever after ending, regardless of what happened when they took control of Vaarsuvius? Or will their involvement shortly thereafter become more direct? The introduction of three semi-omnipotent evil beings with a very personal and active role in the plot cannot but bode ill for our heroes.

I mean, did they really need MORE enemies that are too powerful for them?

[Mr. Pin]

Despite the thing with the names, this comic shows even more evidence that Lee, who commands the succubus Sabine, is a demon.

He comes back from the meeting with Tiamat with plain signs of cold, acid, and fire damage, but no show of electricity damage (however that would be portrayed). Devils are immune to fire. Yugoloths are immune to acid. Demons are immune to electricity.

hold up. I thought we agreed that the LE in Lee stood for lawful evil, just as the CE in Cedrik stands for Chaotic Evil and the NE in Nero stands for Neutral evil?

Furthermore, there's really no sign of cold damage either (unless you count that white spot, perhaps? looks more like mold to me) and how would one show electricity damage? little sparks flying around? I think those dark spots on his robes may have been caused by electricity. and just because he has frost on his clothes or is on fire, doesn't mean he's being damaged. Anyways, he's not showing any sign of damage from chlorine gas (although as both demons and devils and possibly Yugoloths as well are immune to poison, that may be why.)

[Klivian]

hold up. I thought we agreed that the LE in Lee stood for lawful evil, just as the CE in Cedrik stands for Chaotic Evil and the NE in Nero stands for Neutral evil?

Furthermore, there's really no sign of cold damage either (unless you count that white spot, perhaps? looks more like mold to me) and how would one show electricity damage? little sparks flying around? I think those dark spots on his robes may have been caused by electricity. and just because he has frost on his clothes or is on fire, doesn't mean he's being damaged. Anyways, he's not showing any sign of damage from chlorine gas (although as both demons and devils and possibly Yugoloths as well are immune to poison, that may be why.)

Clothing damage in the OotSverse is associated with damage to the owner. Go all the way back to the beginning when Elan gets a healing potion that fixes his cloak

[Gamerlord]

Ah how I love the Classic "Have Group A and Group B fight it out, and then mop up the survivors" and its a classic for a reason.

Looks like Sabine is going to have to make contact with the fiends, but how can they get a message to her without Nale knowing.....

[Emmerson Grant]

Good strip, but I have one question.
If V eliminated "roughly 1/4 of the Black Dragons" and Tiamat demanded a 5 to 1 ratio...doesn't this wipe out all the good dragons?

[Random832]

Good strip, but I have one question.
If V eliminated "roughly 1/4 of the Black Dragons" and Tiamat demanded a 5 to 1 ratio...doesn't this wipe out all the good dragons?

No - black dragons are only one of the five species of evil dragons. (nevermind that there may well be many more good dragons than evil ones)

[SadisticFishing]

Usually there are more chromatics than metallics, although not by much, I think.

[ChaosDefender24]

They are all resistant (but not immune) to cold, too bad for him he isn't an obyrith (resistant to all):smallbiggrin:.

Oh god it would be so awesome if obyriths became major villains in OotS.

[Shatteredtower]

Also, Nale isn't stupid. :( Stop calling him a moron. :(

Sometimes, you have to consider the speaker. A perfectly good example comes to us from Vizzini's opinion of Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates (yes, I know he mentions Plato first) in The Princess Bride: "Morons."

Another possibility is that this is the opinion of a bunch of folks with Intelligence scores that exceed the limits normally available to a point buy. When you've hit 20+ Intelligence, 16 or less just doesn't seem all that bright.

Or, it may just be that they're averaging the Intelligence scores out, and Thog really blows the curve. :smallwink:

I believe, however, that they might be considering matters in terms of Intelligence, Wisdom, and perhaps how easily the Guild has been manipulated in doing what the fiends wish of them. Nale might be smarter than the average bard, but finds self-restraint difficult at times. I doubt he has a low Wisdom score, since he's shown himself to be quite perceptive at times and is aware of the deficiency, but we've been shown that it's still an exploitable flaw.


Hey look! We got the all-infernal post after all, only two issues late! :smallbiggrin:

Neighbour of the Beast -- or at least taking her calls.

[DoctorJest]

But isn't She essentially shooting Herself in the foot, or isn't She the Goddess of all dragons?

I am not sure how it is in current editions, but in the Old Days, Tiamat was goddess of the evil (chromatic) dragons, and Bahumet was the god of good (metallic) dragons.

That may have changed in a newer edition.

[Sijo]

They're not ranting. they're bragging. It's like safe monologuing because there's no good guy around.

But there's a not-really-that-smart Imp present, of questionable loyalty, as well. I'd understood if they bragged *to each other* since they already knew all the facts, but letting an underling know facts they may later spill (accidentally or otherwise) isn't very smart. (Maybe the IFCC hasn't read the Evil Overlord list yet. :smallwink:)

What bugs me about the IFCC's plan is, I can see the demon (chaotic) going for it, but not the devil (lawful) and possibly not the daemon (neutral) either; the original idea that they were seeking some common ground rather than just stirring conflict for its own sake was more interesting (to me anyway.)

Also, I still think when the moment to get control of the Snarl (such as it can be) arrives, they'll still turn on each other.

And again: can someone tell me who is suppose to be who, based on the color of their eyes/speech? (If it's been revealed. I don't recall.)

Edit: I forgot to mention it, but this strip also seems to confirm that Tiamat doesn't know anything about the Fiends' plans, which means she can't see the future like her Oracle can, which makes no sense... unless the little bastard lied about getting his power from her (hey, it's possible.)

[Red XIV]

Hey look! We got the all-infernal post after all, only two issues late! :smallbiggrin:
If both of the co-creators of D&D hadn't died, this would be 666. :tongue:

Though realistically I can't imagine that Rich was actually planning things out in such detail that he knows what the strip numbers will be over a year in advance. I'm sure he's got the basic plot elements planned out that far in advance and then some, but I doubt he's got all the minor details laid out yet.

[warrl]

Edit: I forgot to mention it, but this strip also seems to confirm that Tiamat doesn't know anything about the Fiends' plans, which means she can't see the future like her Oracle can, which makes no sense... unless the little bastard lied about getting his power from her (hey, it's possible.)
The Oracle can't see all of the future, just the part he looks at. (And that's not even considering the possibility of people attempting to change the future in response to predictions - the Oracle's or from other sources.) Tiamat with multiple heads could look at more of it, but still not all of it.

[Sc00by]

Wait!

What gate? :mitd:

And I'd imagine, from what he's said previously, that Rich deliberately avoided making this comic 666.

664, the bloke next door ;)

[Mike_the_Mystic]

I am not sure how it is in current editions, but in the Old Days, Tiamat was goddess of the evil (chromatic) dragons, and Bahumet was the god of good (metallic) dragons.

That may have changed in a newer edition.

No, its still the same; Tiamat is still the goddess of Chromies, and Bahamut is still the god of Metallics.

[Rotipher]

No, its still the same; Tiamat is still the goddess of Chromies, and Bahamut is still the god of Metallics.

Yep. Although we don't know yet if Bahamut also exists in Stickverse: the Good dragons may have to worship Dragon (of the Twelve Gods) instead.

[Rotipher]

Hmmm... okay, let's plant some epileptic trees for the IFCC's plans:

Doesn't the makeup of the Linear Guild match up rather well with the three Spliced souls?

We've got a Lawful Evil male, Nale. He and Ganonron are both domineering, arrogant control freaks.
We've got a Chaotic Evil male, Thog. Like Jephton, he just wants to have fun, which often entails breaking stuff.
We've got a Something Evil female, Sabine ... who seems awfully disciplined for a succubus, possibly pushing her into Neutral Evil territory. Like Haerta, she's a vicious killer, and also pretty hot (and well aware of it).

Could the Fiends be pleased that the Linear Guild's remaining members are a bunch of morons, because they're planning to have the Spliced trio possess them? Morons are bound to have a harder time shaking that off than people with sense.

[BriarHobbit]

Awesome comic. However, the Linear Guild is going to need some new members.

[Sijo]

The Oracle can't see all of the future, just the part he looks at. (And that's not even considering the possibility of people attempting to change the future in response to predictions - the Oracle's or from other sources.) Tiamat with multiple heads could look at more of it, but still not all of it.
And she wouldn't look at the future to make sure the Infernals carry out her demands?

Also, from what we've seen the Oracle's prophecies ALWAYS come true, regardless of what anyone tries (though almost always in the literal sense.)

I hate predictions. :smallannoyed:

[factotum]

Yep. Although we don't know yet if Bahamut also exists in Stickverse: the Good dragons may have to worship Dragon (of the Twelve Gods) instead.

I believe in the Mesopotamian religion that the Western gods are based on, Marduk and Bahamut were the same, and we know Marduk exists in the Stickverse. Course, doesn't mean he's actually the god of all good dragons here, but it's a possibility.

[hamishspence]

In 3.5 Faerun (Dragons of Faerun sourcebook) this is indeed the case (Marduk and Bahamut being one and the same) however, OoTS may not have a Bahamut.

[Kaytara]

the original idea that they were seeking some common ground rather than just stirring conflict for its own sake was more interesting (to me anyway.)

They're not stirring conflict for its own sake. It's a purely strategic decision. They have two groups who oppose each other for the same goal as the IFCC, but don't know about the IFCC. It makes perfect sense to keep in the background and prod the two groups towards fighting it out with each other and accomplishing other goals while their backs are turned.

Calling in the LG makes sense too. Xykon is currently somewhat out of commission due to the fact that he has to find his phylactery before moving on to the Gate. So rather than leave the Order unopposed, the IFCC call in the LG to occupy them for a while.


Awesome comic. However, the Linear Guild is going to need some new members.

Someone like... Inkyrius!

DUN DUN DUNNNNN! :smallbiggrin:

[Jaltum]

I believe in the Mesopotamian religion that the Western gods are based on, Marduk and Bahamut were the same,

No. Bahamut as the enemy of Tiamat is pure D&D. In Sumerian myth, Tiamat's nemesis was Marduk. So in some D&D settings, Marduk has been identified as an incarnation of Bahamut in order to make the two fit together.

In the real world, Marduk is an ancient Sumerian god, one of the earliest recorded deities; Bahamut is a giant world-supporting fish in antique Muslim cosmology. There's a few thousand years between the cultures involved. Any conflation of the two comes from D&D.

[Crafty Cultist]

With the feinds as a third group fighting for the gate (albeit subtly) the story will only become more tangled.
in a battle with two sides you know who to fight but a three way conflict means fighting one enemy gives the other time to advance their plans.
I look forward to seeing where it will lead

[rxmd]

In the real world, Marduk is an ancient Sumerian god, one of the earliest recorded deities; Bahamut is a giant world-supporting fish in antique Muslim cosmology. There's a few thousand years between the cultures involved. Any conflation of the two comes from D&D.

Just to clear this up, as far as ancient deities go, Marduk is actually soimething of a latecomer. In the records of the early dynastic period he doesn't really figure particularly prominently and only becomes prominent in the legends after Hammurabi, particularly the Enuma Elish (the Babylonian creation myth) which was written about 1700 BC at the earliest, and already in Babylonian (not Sumerian). Sumerian mythology has deities that are much older than that, notably the trinity of Anu, Enlil, and Enki/Ea; these date at least to about 2500 BC, but possibly older - we can't really read the writing from the earlier periods. (I find it already pretty amazing that we can read something from 4500 years ago at all!)

[Rotipher]

Someone like... Inkyrius!

DUN DUN DUNNNNN! :smallbiggrin:

Inkyrius in the Linear Guild? Which OotS member would an apprentice baker be the diametric opposite of? :smallamused:

[Pyron]

Inkyrius in the Linear Guild? Which OotS member would an apprentice baker be the diametric opposite of? :smallamused:

Ask the Sticks' resident gourmet chef. :smallsmile:

[Sequinox]

The plot didn't just thicken, it went from being chicken noodle soup (albeit incredible soup) to freaking french onion. In a very good way. Seriously, a complex plot was just what this comic needed. I can't wait to see how the next story arc unfolds.

[Ridureyu]

Seriously, a complex plot was just what this comic needed.

It wasn't already?

[factotum]

Could the Fiends be pleased that the Linear Guild's remaining members are a bunch of morons, because they're planning to have the Spliced trio possess them? Morons are bound to have a harder time shaking that off than people with sense.

Firstly, Sabine is already working for the IFCC--why would they need to possess her with anything? Secondly, only Thog is a moron--Nale is actually quite intelligent and would probably have an OK Will save. Thirdly, the OotS are already going to have enough trouble defeating a single epic level lich--adding three epic spellcasters into the mix would just make things ridiculous.

[Omegonthesane]

Firstly, Sabine is already working for the IFCC--why would they need to possess her with anything? Secondly, only Thog is a moron--Nale is actually quite intelligent and would probably have an OK Will save. Thirdly, the OotS are already going to have enough trouble defeating a single epic level lich--adding three epic spellcasters into the mix would just make things ridiculous.
We're meant to spoiler predictions for Rich's sake aren't we?
Depends how long they stick around for, and whether or not they can use their spells. The soul splice was NOT a normal demonic possession, so we can't draw information from there. Indeed, we could make a throwaway gag of the splice trio complaining that they can't use their spells.

Nale isn't quite moronic enough to need to be replaced, and Sabine possibly can't be possessed at all - succubus - but Thog maybe. Or they get three new members who are possessed by the splice trio. Or Haerta has a plan to return from the dead, and does so independently, and her overpowered nature is mitigated by her opposing all the other villains as well as the OotS - no one would really want to stay enslaved to the IFCC, surely, not with that "Freedom! Hahahahahahahahahaaa!" cry as she left.

[Jaltum]

In response to what someone said on the previous page, about the plan not being Devilish enough--there's nothing unLawful about a scheme to manipulate your enemies towards your own goals. The demon probably enjoys the conflict for its own sake, but POINT of the conflict is to keep the Order and Xykon struggling over the gates. Remember, they were annoyed with Xykon sitting on his butt in AC, and the Order being reunited was an obvious and expected consequence of giving V the power.

I don't think the exposition about seeking common ground was false--remember, the Council existed long before they heard about the Gates. They're pursuing the common benefit of all evil; one of their plans towards that end involves the gates, as they told Tiamat. (It probably also involves obscene personal power, but since it will be shared between the three of them, it still furthers interfiend community... in a very specific way.)

[hollywoodb1]

Evil, FTW :smallamused: I love The Order of the Stick.

[Rotipher]

Firstly, Sabine is already working for the IFCC--why would they need to possess her with anything? Secondly, only Thog is a moron--Nale is actually quite intelligent and would probably have an OK Will save. Thirdly, the OotS are already going to have enough trouble defeating a single epic level lich--adding three epic spellcasters into the mix would just make things ridiculous.

Except Sabine can't cast epic-level spells. I'm not talking about another Soul Splice here, but ghostly possession: the kind which would let the three souls cast spells, as well as manipulate the physical world through the LG's bodies. Note that V has already mentioned how ghosts retain their casting powers; all they'd have to do is strip off the Guild members' armor, and the three souls could cast whatever effects they liked. Or perhaps they wouldn't have time to do that, in which case, armor check penalties would help even the odds in a fight between the possessed Guild and the Order.

Nale is intelligent, but his Wisdom doesn't seem particularly impressive, especially when his ego is involved. That's what affects Will saves, not Intelligence.

Since when has "ridiculous" stopped Rich? It's pretty clear we've got at least two more books' worth of stories still to go. If the Western Continent book is going to feature Girard's Gate, the twins' father, the rescue of Haley's dad, and possible retribution from Tiamat's priesthood, then the Dwarven Lands book is looking a little thin by comparison. But if the Guild screws up its job at Girard's Gate, then sending them after Kraagor's Gate while possessed would put a neat new spin on their group, which (aside from Thog) would otherwise be getting a bit predictable by then.

[Mannryu]

And I has been wondering where did Linear Guild go... Hehe it is good to have 'em back :smalltongue:

[rewinn]

With the feinds as a third group fighting for the gate (albeit subtly) the story will only become more tangled.
....

Dare we say the story will become more .... Snarled?

Inkyrius in the Linear Guild? Which OotS member would an apprentice baker be the diametric opposite of? :smallamused:

V, of course!

What's more natural opposing than a spouse?

(I'm just kidding honey. Put the frying pan down. Ouch! not on my head!)

[Carteeg_Struve]

Dare we say the story will become more .... Snarled?

BOOOOO!!!!!

:smallwink:

[Acero]

They just want conflict? That seems doubtful to me. Sure they don't want either of those two sides to win, but I'm sure that they want to win.

they win when there is conflict

[Rev. George]

And that's not even considering the possibility of people attempting to change the future in response to predictions - the Oracle's or from other sources.

That NEVER works...Just ask Oedipus, Cronus, Macbeth or Anakin Skywalker...

You try, but only fulfill it in the process... The argument being that the trying is an act of Hubris, and that is what leads you to be punished...

-+G

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Could the Fiends be pleased that the Linear Guild's remaining members are a bunch of morons, because they're planning to have the Spliced trio possess them? Morons are bound to have a harder time shaking that off than people with sense.

I don't see it. IMO, the splice was for V's "benefit", and we'll never see those three again.

[BriarHobbit]

I don't see it. IMO, the splice was for V's "benefit", and we'll never see those three again.

The necromancer may make a reappearance. Otherwise, what was the point in having her "break free" and have to be recollected.

[factotum]

The necromancer may make a reappearance. Otherwise, what was the point in having her "break free" and have to be recollected.

The point of that was to weaken V before his showdown with Xykon--with the necromancer in tow he would have beaten the lich easily, despite his lack of tactical nous. After all, the other two souls ALSO broke free from V (after Xykon whacked him in the head with a chunk of rock)...

[HandofShadows]

After all, the other two souls ALSO broke free from V (after Xykon whacked him in the head with a chunk of rock)...

And after V was under the effect of a mind fog spell.

[Menas]

To the point about it being harder for morons to 'shake off' a soul splice - the splices are something that need to be 'maintained', not 'shaken off'.

V. had to actively concentrate to maintain the splices. Someone who's considered a moron would probably have a hard time maintaining that level of concentration.

Take Thog for instance.... *splice initiates* 'Oh look, something shiny!' *splice terminates*.

[Jigsaw Forte]

To the point about it being harder for morons to 'shake off' a soul splice - the splices are something that need to be 'maintained', not 'shaken off'.

V. had to actively concentrate to maintain the splices. Someone who's considered a moron would probably have a hard time maintaining that level of concentration.

Take Thog for instance.... *splice initiates* 'Oh look, something shiny!' *splice terminates*.

From what I can tell, all it takes to maintain the splice is an ability to make a will save.

Thog would have the hardest time of that, but Nale and Sabine could likely maintain theirs pretty effortlessly, and would be able to provide Thog with plenty of enhancements and buffs, especially if we're talking about a long-term splice compared to V's 20-minute romp; this line of reasoning implies that they would have to be spliced for a VERY long time in comparison, even if it's 20 days instead of 20 minutes.

[Menas]

From what I can tell, all it takes to maintain the splice is an ability to make a will save.

Thog would have the hardest time of that, but Nale and Sabine could likely maintain theirs pretty effortlessly, and would be able to provide Thog with plenty of enhancements and buffs, especially if we're talking about a long-term splice compared to V's 20-minute romp; this line of reasoning implies that they would have to be spliced for a VERY long time in comparison, even if it's 20 days instead of 20 minutes.

All it took for Haerta to leave the building was for V. to be surprised =).

[fishguy]

The point of that was to weaken V before his showdown with Xykon--with the necromancer in tow he would have beaten the lich easily, despite his lack of tactical nous. After all, the other two souls ALSO broke free from V (after Xykon whacked him in the head with a chunk of rock)...

While I totally agree with you about the core reasons for this particular turn... it also occurs to me that this situation with the uneven distribution of time (in control of V's soul) between the three members of the fiendish consortium could lead to some interesting plot architecture.

Could we see a break in the solidarity amongst the fiends at the crucial moment of their nefarious plans? could the fiend with the short duration slice of the V-soul-pie get shafted when he can't exert control? Will the fiends be able to maintain their unprecedented cooperation right to the end or will it all fall apart, as usual, because of their inability to pass up an opportunity to stick the knife in their erstwhile comrades back?

dun dun DUHN!

[Rotipher]

To the point about it being harder for morons to 'shake off' a soul splice - the splices are something that need to be 'maintained', not 'shaken off'.

Er, how many times do I need to clarify this? I wasn't talking about another Soul Splice, but possession. Y'know, the kind of thing that doesn't REQUIRE cooperation? That doesn't chain the three souls to the tactical clumsiness of somebody lower-level than themselves? That wouldn't even require any of the three, with the possible exception of Sabine, to agree to participate, or even have a clue what's coming?

Of course, they wouldn't use another Soul Splice. Been there, done that. But if Roy's taught us anything in the last several months, it's that there's more than one way a soul could potentially be a participant in the story.

[lothos]

While I totally agree with you about the core reasons for this particular turn... it also occurs to me that this situation with the uneven distribution of time (in control of V's soul) between the three members of the fiendish consortium could lead to some interesting plot architecture.

Could we see a break in the solidarity amongst the fiends at the crucial moment of their nefarious plans? could the fiend with the short duration slice of the V-soul-pie get shafted when he can't exert control? Will the fiends be able to maintain their unprecedented cooperation right to the end or will it all fall apart, as usual, because of their inability to pass up an opportunity to stick the knife in their erstwhile comrades back?

dun dun DUHN!

Very good point, I've been thinking the same sort of thing. It does seem likely that eventually their alliance will fall apart. These are inherently evil creatures who usually behave in very selfish ways. While they are working together for now, I'd expect them to turn on each other if it suited them and they thought they had a way to gain greater advantage.

So I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see a critical point where it looks like the IFCC is going to succeed in controlling the gate, only for infighting to hand the good guys victory. I'm hoping that these events will also feature some opportunity for V to redeem him/her self. Not only saving his/her soul but also being pivotal in thwarting the IFCC's plans.

[Undead Prince]

So I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see a critical point where it looks like the IFCC is going to succeed in controlling the gate, only for infighting to hand the good guys victory. I'm hoping that these events will also feature some opportunity for V to redeem him/her self. Not only saving his/her soul but also being pivotal in thwarting the IFCC's plans.

That would defeat the entire IFCC schtick. And though it would certainly be ironic, we've seen this irony a million times already - the IFCC was conceived to subvert the stale trope of evil defeating itself, it would be a grave disappointment if the fiends would eventually succumb to the boring tradition.

A much more interesting turn of events, in my mind, is for the fiends' alliance to hold fast. After all, Xykon and Redcloak's falling out is basically set in stone, and with all evil players fighting each other, the finale would degenerate into a cakewalk sweep for the good guys.

[Souhiro]

Eleven Days, since the Little Three Friends said their lines...

Do you think that Celia will be a regular character, maybe a new PC?

[Kaytara]

Very good point, I've been thinking the same sort of thing. It does seem likely that eventually their alliance will fall apart. These are inherently evil creatures who usually behave in very selfish ways. While they are working together for now, I'd expect them to turn on each other if it suited them and they thought they had a way to gain greater advantage.

So I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see a critical point where it looks like the IFCC is going to succeed in controlling the gate, only for infighting to hand the good guys victory. I'm hoping that these events will also feature some opportunity for V to redeem him/her self. Not only saving his/her soul but also being pivotal in thwarting the IFCC's plans.

I would actually bet against that. Rich is big on "Emotional Responses" (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html), alignment not being a straitjacket and people not being completely logical, and all that. He illustrates his point with the example of a pair of evil overlords who were cooperating to take over the world and were not planning or intending to betray each other at all, simply because they were childhood friends and just loyal to each other. The IFCC seem to be the truly perfect opportunity to show that in-comic.

Besides which, the "villains cooperate to defeat everyone only to be undone by their own selfishness in the end" cliche is SO overdone that it's not even funny. There's no way Rich can play it straight on this one, not with such a major plot point.

Although, on that note.... Wouldn't fiends be beings of Pure X and Evil?

[Selene]

Eleven Days, since the Little Three Friends said their lines...

Do you think that Celia will be a regular character, maybe a new PC?

Do you mean since this comic went up? It's only been seven. Check the Giant's initial post. Anticipation of continued awesomeness just makes it feel like it's been longer. :smallsmile:

I really like Celia, so I'd be fine with her staying around.

Who else do we need to check on before the the end-of-book splash page?