MechWarrior 5 announced!

[Swordguy]

Oh, Frabjulous day!

Piranha Games, in conjunction with Smith & Tinker (the guys who used to run FASA) announced the upcoming Mechwarrior 5 game today.

Links to the three teaser trailers are Here (http://www.youtube.com/user/BPR1111).

The official IGN article on the story is located Here ( http://pc.ign.com/articles/100/1002275p1.html)


It's been 10 freaking years since the last Mech simulator. I can't wait for this one to be released!

[revolver kobold]

I was just talking about the old Mechwarrior games the other day.

This has made me a very happy person indeed.

[Smight]

meh, they will probobly find a way to screw this up and totaly destroy anything that was fun in previous games,

[Alex Knight]

meh, they will probobly find a way to screw this up and totaly destroy anything that was fun in previous games,

Heretic, you shall be cleansed with PPC fire.

[Gorgondantess]

Heretic, you shall be cleansed with PPC fire.

And then some liberal gauss rifling.
I was just looking on youtube for a link today for the Mech 3 opening (totally badass), and I saw "mechwarrior 5 trailer". I thought "Oh, pfffft, not gonna happen. Mechwarrior's dead."
I am so glad to be proven wrong.:smallbiggrin:

[Smight]

And then some liberal gauss rifling.
I was just looking on youtube for a link today for the Mech 3 opening (totally badass), and I saw "mechwarrior 5 trailer". I thought "Oh, pfffft, not gonna happen. Mechwarrior's dead."
I am so glad to be proven wrong.:smallbiggrin:

I loved the MechWarrior, but after seeing
what they did to Fallout, the butchering of what was once a great RPG into abismal ARPGFPSWTF that is this so called sequal now, i doubt that kids that run the show this days know how to make the worthy sequal to grat games witouth craping over it with some shiny idotic gimick that will totaly ruin the game for old fans.

[JellyPooga]

That. Looks. So. COOL!

Ok ok, it's just the trailer and fancy graphics doesn't neccesarily mean a good game, but after the lacklustre MW3 I was so despondant that I didn't even bother with MW4. Just as I was considering taking a look at MW4 (was it really almost a decade ago that was released?), this. Between the announcement of this and the recent release of the Blood Bowl computer game, I'm very tempted to actually invest in a new computer (for reference, the last time I bought a new PC was...well, I don't actually remember, it was so long ago!)

[Swordguy]

I loved the MechWarrior, but after seeing
what they did to Fallout, the butchering of what was once a great RPG into abismal ARPGFPSWTF that is this so called sequal now, i doubt that kids that run the show this days know how to make the worthy sequal to grat games witouth craping over it with some shiny idotic gimick that will totaly ruin the game for old fans.

... :smallannoyed:

You do know (from reading the linked articles, because nobody on GitP would dare dream of commenting without having read the articles) that the guys who are doing this project are the original creators of BattleTech, right?

That they are, quite possibly, the "oldest fans" of the game in existence? Not to mention that they're on-record as saying they want a very old-school feel to the game - like that of the old Activision MechWarrior 1 game? That this game will have nothing to do with MechAssault gameplay, and will be much more of an old-school straight-up sim, but with co-op and cross-platform multiplayer? That the people who are building this game have nothing to do with Fallout 3, except for using the Unreal 3 engine it premired? You DID get that, right? Of course you did, since it says so, repeatedly, blatantly, and without prevarication in the article itself...RIGHT?

:smallannoyed:

[Skeppio]

I am overwhelmed. MechWarrior 2 & 3 were practically my childhood, and now this new Mechwarrior looks to have the same gameplay style as the classics. This is like my dream come true! Now if only I had a computer good enough to run it. :smallsigh:

But seriously, the trailer looks phenomenal! I can't wait to see the game when it's released!

[Smight]

... :smallannoyed:

You do know (from reading the linked articles, because nobody on GitP would dare dream of commenting without having read the articles) that the guys who are doing this project are the original creators of BattleTech, right?

That they are, quite possibly, the "oldest fans" of the game in existence? Not to mention that they're on-record as saying they want a very old-school feel to the game - like that of the old Activision MechWarrior 1 game? That this game will have nothing to do with MechAssault gameplay, and will be much more of an old-school straight-up sim, but with co-op and cross-platform multiplayer? That the people who are building this game have nothing to do with Fallout 3, except for using the Unreal 3 engine it premired? You DID get that, right? Of course you did, since it says so, repeatedly, blatantly, and without prevarication in the article itself...RIGHT?

:smallannoyed:

All I'm saying is I don't buy the hipe no more, got burned to often, if it turns out fine good for all of us , but i wont hold my breath,
and you DO know fallout was just my for example of crappy revival

[jamroar]

Oh, Frabjulous day!

Piranha Games, in conjunction with Smith & Tinker (the guys who used to run FASA) announced the upcoming Mechwarrior 5 game today.

Links to the three teaser trailers are Here (http://www.youtube.com/user/BPR1111).

The official IGN article on the story is located Here ( http://pc.ign.com/articles/100/1002275p1.html)


It's been 10 freaking years since the last Mech simulator. I can't wait for this one to be released!

3015? Will the (redesigned?) unseen mechs be turning up then?

[Thant]

I loved the MechWarrior, but after seeing
what they did to Fallout, the butchering of what was once a great RPG into abismal ARPGFPSWTF that is this so called sequal now, i doubt that kids that run the show this days know how to make the worthy sequal to grat games witouth craping over it with some shiny idotic gimick that will totaly ruin the game for old fans.

This is so true and this


All I'm saying is I don't buy the hipe no more, got burned to often, if it turns out fine good for all of us , but i wont hold my breath

should be used as an axiom for evaluating teaser trailers and every future game release. These are wise words indeed...and got a respect a fellow X-COM fan :smallsmile:

OT: I too love MW 2&3, spent much of my time in cockpits of the infamous MadCat and Pumas with AC10s and LRMs, jumping all over the place with me trusty jump jets...ahhh, the memories...

Sure hope they will do the right thing and keep in mind that the graphics are not the only perquisite for a good game and epic story/atmosphere.

[Swordguy]

3015? Will the (redesigned?) unseen mechs be turning up again?

If you follow the video links to the main trailer, or the rewind trailer, you'll see a Warhammer as the POV character's ride. And in the IGN Interview with Jordan Weisman, Jordan specifically mentions a Rifleman. Draw your own conclusions. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I should note that the rights to use the ORIGINAL Unseen designs were returned to the BattleTech franchise a few weeks ago. All the unseen are back, in their original forms. And before it's mentioned - those were not stolen. FASA licensed them from a company who said they could provide the license, but actually couldn't (unbeknownst to FASA until they tried to sue Playmates/Harmony Gold for straight-up ripping off the Mad Cat Mech). A judge stripped Harmony Gold's exclusive control of the US distribution rights of the images, and they're essentially public use in the US at this point.

[banthesun]

I haven't played these games as much as I'd like, but I know they're awesome (and I here the Mechwarrior 3 systems check in my head whenever I have lots of switches that need turning on), so I'm definitely excited about this. Just one thing though, in the article I think it said there was only four mechs so far, that seems like quite a number too few. Is this just early in the dev, or are they focusing on a few main chasis? Or I might just be mistaken.

[Mando Knight]

I will now recite my reaction to this announcment.

Ahem.

GIANT EFFING ROBOTS BLOWING STUFF UP.

'Nuff Said.

[SinisterPenguin]

Oh man, this is really really awesome news. I can't wait.

But that's not all. Look at this (http://battletech.catalystgamelabs.com/2009/07/09/mechwarrior-to-be-distributed-free-on-battletech-com/). That's right, they're going to be distributing MechWarrior 4 (and its expansion packs) for free on Battletech.com. Awesome.

[13_CBS]

Another Mechwarrior?

You mean, another game where I can load up a Daishi with nothing but PPCs, turn on cheats, and blow the **** out of bots?

http://img.letssingit.com/members/768730/hellyeah_.jpg

[Kane]

Oh god. I can't wait.

I only played MW 4, but I loved it. I found it, basically the equivalent of flight combat simulators, except you got to do it in a walking, multi-ton juggernaut of steel, armed with whatever you you could fit into it.

And then I kept hearing that 1-3 were BETTER than 4, but, seeing how much trouble I had getting 4 to run, I figured I was doomed to never play them.

And now a reboot...:smallbiggrin:

And, vaguely related, not to insult anime, but I always found the anime mechs with hands/heads/arms and whatnot rather silly (Says the WH40k player. I know.:smallsigh:). One of the reasons I so liked mechwarrior was that the mechs in it were utilitarian, and awesome. The Atlas was the most anthropomorphic mech in the game, and it deserved it, particularly that skull-face, for the sheer terror factor of realizing that you are up against the toughest mech in the game, and you used almost all your gauss rifle ammo earlier on. Simply put, I love their design for gun-toting piloted behemoths, rather than 'giant people' robots. Anyone else like/dislike that part?

[Winterwind]

Ooooh, this sounds awesome. In particular those parts about capturing the feel of piloting a giant warmachine (MM4 felt way too little like a simulator and too much like a generic FPS to me). Definitely one more game to the list of what I'll be getting once I upgrade my computer. :smallbiggrin:

Though the date of 3015 means no Timber Wolves. Just what will I do? :smallfrown:

[Erloas]

Well, although I didn't end up playing the first MechWarrior games much I'm still looking forward to this one a lot.
Having basically discovered Battletech in the table top form 3-4 years ago I really got into it. I tried to go back and play the old games, since my brother had a copy of 3, but it simply would not run correctly on my computer, and they still want too much for 4 considering that its 10 years old.

I read all the information IGN had and it sounds like it could be very good. I'm hoping they make sure to include support, and design for, a joystick and not just the 360 controller and the mouse/keyboard. So many things act like joysticks aren't even an option any more.


As for the number of 'Mechs, well they said they only have 4 in the video, which is rather meaningless in terms of what the end game will have. They also said many times that the scale of the game is going to be directly related to the financial backing they can get from a publisher. They said they plan on having 'Mechs from every different weight class too, and of the 4 'Mechs in the video they were from 3 classes, so you know there has to be a lot more. Considering the modularity of the weapons and equipment in Battletech it would seem like having a very wide range of 'Mechs would simply be a matter of creating the models for them. Since how a lot of the mechanics work the same way across all 'Mechs its not like increasing the number of 'Mechs will require extensive rework and rebalancing.

[Gorgondantess]

If you follow the video links to the main trailer, or the rewind trailer, you'll see a Warhammer as the POV character's ride. And in the IGN Interview with Jordan Weisman, Jordan specifically mentions a Rifleman. Draw your own conclusions. :smallbiggrin:

Wait, wait... as a guy who's only played through MW 2, 3 & 4 (And the expansions thereof) does this mean that there won't be classic madcats and shadowcats and all that goodness? Coz' I've gotsta have my madcats. They're the figurehead of mechwarrior. And the best mechs in the game.:smallbiggrin:

[Kane]

Wait, wait... as a guy who's only played through MW 2, 3 & 4 (And the expansions thereof) does this mean that there won't be classic madcats and shadowcats and all that goodness? Coz' I've gotsta have my madcats. They're the figurehead of mechwarrior. And the best mechs in the game.:smallbiggrin:

My memory is poor, but I was quite certain it was the Fafnir, I think. Or possibly the Gladiator; I'm not sure. I do know that in the rare instances that I could play Mercenaries, I was always sure to do whatever I could to get those two.

[mangosta71]

Will have to look more into this when I get home. But initial impressions: 3015 and references to the Unseen 'Mechs mean pre-Clan Inner Sphere tech and a story set between the Third and Fourth Succession Wars. Not my favorite part of the BattleTech timeline. So the devs already have a challenge there, and if they stay true to MechWarrior 1 there will be no customization of your 'Mech. And the 'Mechs that were in use in the IS during the time period were utter garbage. Poor armor coverage, poor weaponry, poor heat capacity, or two or all three (I'm looking at you, Rifleman) plagued every one of them. Maybe the trailer will make up for some of this, but I don't turn fanboy over a few pretty explosions.

[Gorgondantess]

Ugh. That will suck.
And, actually, looking at the trailer, the things seem to handle like lead semis, so that might just be the case.
But seriously: if they don't give me mah madcats, I'm going to boycott this game. That is truly evil.:smallannoyed:

[13_CBS]

Ugh. That will suck.
And, actually, looking at the trailer, the things seem to handle like lead semis, so that might just be the case.
But seriously: if they don't give me mah madcats, I'm going to boycott this game. That is truly evil.:smallannoyed:

If you're lucky, someone will make a mod for it sooner or later.

[Rustic Dude]

I've only registered because of this. So, hi floks.

Swordguy, a lot of thanks for announcing this announcement(heh), because this is, for me, the most awesome news concerning videogames i could get.

Also, thats the timeline I like moar(Yeah, Inner Sphere!), before those pesky Clanners(Although I'll miss my old ShadowCat), and the news of the free online distribution of MW4 complete fills me with joy: here in Spain, we couldn't get more than the original game.

(Give me a Hunchback or a Centurion, and I'm set)

[Winterwind]

Wait, wait... as a guy who's only played through MW 2, 3 & 4 (And the expansions thereof) does this mean that there won't be classic madcats and shadowcats and all that goodness? Coz' I've gotsta have my madcats. They're the figurehead of mechwarrior. And the best mechs in the game.:smallbiggrin:Timber Wolves (stop with that Inner Sphere "Mad Cat" nonsense! :smalltongue:) are Clan 'Mechs. The Clan invasion occured more than 30 years after the time this game is going to be set in - prior to that, nobody even knew the Clans existed. So, no, most definitely no Timber Wolves, Shadow Cats or any other Clan tech. In fact, even equipment like ER lasers, pulse lasers, double heat sinks, XL reactors, endosteel and ferrofibrit structure/armour, Ultra/LB-X autocannons and modular OmniMechs has not yet been rediscovered in the Inner Sphere (though there might still be some still-working relicts from the time of the Starleague around - extremely, extremely rare and valuable) at that point.

[JellyPooga]

I'm actually looking forward to a game where the Clans don't feature at all...I was never a fan of the Clans from the get-go. One of the things I liked best about MW2:Mercs was that it introduced the Clans and they were the bad guys...even going as far as to get pirates to team up with mercs and the Houses to drive them out. That was all sorts of awesome! Just playing IS sounds good to me...battling to cope with stuff like heat and poor armour is what makes the game a challenge. It's all well and good sitting in a beefy Clan Mech like a Daishi or MadCat and blasting the crap out of everything in sight, but to me it seems a bit too much like hitting GodMode in Doom; it's good for a laugh, but it's not what I'd call fun.

[Winterwind]

My first contact with BattleTech was MechWarrior 2 - the original "31st Century Combat" game, not any of the expansions or stand-alone MechWarrior 2: SOMETHING games. As you may remember, that game's story was the Refusal War - Clan Wolf against Clan Jade Falcon. So, to me, the Clans were what BattleTech was all about. I knew there was something called the Inner Sphere, but it seemed like a fairly unimportant element outside of what the universe was actually focusing on (you can imagine how surprised I was when I learnt the truth :smallbiggrin:).
And it's hardly God Mode when everyone is using those things only. :smallwink:

[13_CBS]

Good news! According to The Escapist, Battletech.com is going to offer FREE downloads of Mechwarrior 4 and its expansions to mark the 25th anniversary of Battletech! :smallbiggrin:




UPDATE: It just keeps getting better. While we wait for Mechwarrior, Smith & Tinker has decided to mark the 25th anniversary of Battletech by giving away Mechwarrior 4 and its expansions. The free game package will be available for download soon at MekTek.net and Battletech.com.

Article here (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/93031-New-Mechwarrior-Confirmed-UPDATED).

[Erloas]

Will have to look more into this when I get home. But initial impressions: 3015 and references to the Unseen 'Mechs mean pre-Clan Inner Sphere tech and a story set between the Third and Fourth Succession Wars. Not my favorite part of the BattleTech timeline. So the devs already have a challenge there, and if they stay true to MechWarrior 1 there will be no customization of your 'Mech. And the 'Mechs that were in use in the IS during the time period were utter garbage. Poor armor coverage, poor weaponry, poor heat capacity, or two or all three (I'm looking at you, Rifleman) plagued every one of them. Maybe the trailer will make up for some of this, but I don't turn fanboy over a few pretty explosions.

Well I don't think what they mean with staying true to MechWarrior 1 is the lack of customization, that was most likely a legacy of technology rather then a part of the design. They talk quite a bit about the limitations that the first games had due to the technology of the time, they also talk about the resource management aspect of salvage and repair, both of which imply changing the 'Mechs.
Of course it is going to mean you don't have the clan OmniMechs, which have a much wider range of customization and can be customized a lot faster. It might mean that where as an OmniMech might be able to be refitted with almost anything and possibly between sub-missions, you will have a more limited amount of customization that will only be done between major breaks in the campaign. Besides, even early on there were often a few different configurations of most 'Mechs.

While I'm more of a fan of Battletech rather then MechWarrior, I've always liked the IS and the earlier tech. Sure the later tech gets more powerful, but it also takes some depth away from the game. Heat management was not nearly as big of a factor in later years when almost every 'Mech had more heat-sinks then they could effectively use at any given range. It also made the stand back and snipe type of 'Mechs more powerful rather then the gritty close range 'Mechs. I think the weaknesses of the designs are a big part of what gave the earlier 'Mechs character. Besides, if everyone has weaker weapons and everyone has weaker armor it balances out and everyone has heat issues then it balances out. Its only when you mix the newer 'Mechs without any of those problems with the old ones that you start to have problems. Its not like 200 armor is bad if 200 armor is the most anyone can get, but if you have a 'Mech of a certain size with 200 armor and someone else of the same size has 400 armor then it is.

[Alex Knight]

Wait, wait... as a guy who's only played through MW 2, 3 & 4 (And the expansions thereof) does this mean that there won't be classic madcats and shadowcats and all that goodness? Coz' I've gotsta have my madcats. They're the figurehead of mechwarrior. And the best mechs in the game.:smallbiggrin:

Whippersnapper.

Marauder and Warhammer. The old-school "bad mamma-jammas"

Those are the real classics. And honestly? The Marauder is the Mad Cat of 3015.

[Winterwind]

Those are the real classics. And honestly? The Marauder is the Mad Cat of 3015.The Inner Sphere calls the Timber Wolf "Mad Cat" only because Anastasius Focht found the Timber Wolf resembled the Inner Sphere Marauder and Catapult 'Mechs the most, after all. :smallcool:

[Alex Knight]

Yeah, but why confuse the lad any more than he is already?

[blackouttwo]

I think they'll be making an expansion pack to the game if it turns out to sell well and get positive feedback: If they do, it'll potentially focus on the Clan Wars, meaning clan-tech and mech customization.

Mmmm, light Clan mechs...I always did like the lighter ones for some reason.

[Winterwind]

Yeah, but why confuse the lad any more than he is already?I guess you're right. :smallbiggrin:


I think they'll be making an expansion pack to the game if it turns out to sell well and get positive feedback: If they do, it'll potentially focus on the Clan Wars, meaning clan-tech and mech customization.

Mmmm, light Clan mechs...I always did like the lighter ones for some reason.I always found Clan technology kinda made light 'Mechs obsolete. I mean, take something like an Ice Ferret. It's a medium 'Mech - that is in every imaginable regard better than almost all light 'Mechs, including mobility.

[mangosta71]

Well, you see, customizing a 'Mech before the advent of OmniMechs required weeks of work and a dedicated factory or equivalent facility. And millions and millions of whatever currency you wish to name. There were no configurations - there were different versions of a number of 'Mechs, but they were each built that way. It would be easier, cheaper, and faster to simply buy another 'Mech than try to switch one to another version.

Even with the technology available at the time, many of the 'Mechs the IS used in 3015 were complete trash. The designers were unforgivably stupid. Particularly the Rifleman. My brother and I performed several performance tests with it in game, and it just got ripped to shreds by 'Mechs half its size. Its array of weaponry is impressive until you realize that it can only use its primary weapons 10 times before it's out of ammo and is reduced to lasers, of which it can only fire one per round unless you want it to explode. I hate on that design more than any other. It's just appalling that anyone would ever think that it was a good idea.


I always found Clan technology kinda made light 'Mechs obsolete. I mean, take something like an Ice Ferret. It's a medium 'Mech - that is in every imaginable regard better than almost all light 'Mechs, including mobility.

Except for the lack of jump jets. Those make a world of difference in rough terrain. The Ice Ferret is fast and all, but only in an open field. A Nova, while slower in the open, is more mobile in most conditions. And let's not ignore the ever-sexy Mist Lynx.

[blackouttwo]

I always found Clan technology kinda made light 'Mechs obsolete. I mean, take something like an Ice Ferret. It's a medium 'Mech - that is in every imaginable regard better than almost all light 'Mechs, including mobility.

Still, with the tweaks they're making to the gameplay, allowing for light 'Mechs in general to have a better overall role in combat than previous MechWarrior games, the possibility is there that each model of light 'Mech could excel in certain ways, meaning even the Ice Ferret wouldn't be able to top them. The Ice Ferret would likely have it's own specialization in some way.


And, vaguely related, not to insult anime, but I always found the anime mechs with hands/heads/arms and whatnot rather silly (Says the WH40k player. I know.). One of the reasons I so liked mechwarrior was that the mechs in it were utilitarian, and awesome *snip* Simply put, I love their design for gun-toting piloted behemoths, rather than 'giant people' robots. Anyone else like/dislike that part?

Personally, I never liked Gundams and whatnot because the mechs shown in those series were too 'graceful' for me, personally. No offense to anime-robot fans here, but big 'plodders' like the ones in BattleTech and MechWarrior are what robots should be. Giant walking tanks.

[Alex Knight]

Even with the technology available at the time, many of the 'Mechs the IS used in 3015 were complete trash. The designers were unforgivably stupid. Particularly the Rifleman. My brother and I performed several performance tests with it in game, and it just got ripped to shreds by 'Mechs half its size. Its array of weaponry is impressive until you realize that it can only use its primary weapons 10 times before it's out of ammo and is reduced to lasers, of which it can only fire one per round unless you want it to explode. I hate on that design more than any other. It's just appalling that anyone would ever think that it was a good idea.


The Rifleman was initially designed to shoot down aerospace fighters, not engage in point-blank combat with enemy 'Mechs. Even then, once it runs out of Autocannon ammunition, "explosion" is something that only occurs in the computer games, and a full laser strike doesn't automatically shut the machine down. Heck, it doesn't even reach the first shutdown check.

[mangosta71]

The Rifleman was initially designed to shoot down aerospace fighters, not engage in point-blank combat with enemy 'Mechs. Even then, once it runs out of Autocannon ammunition, "explosion" is something that only occurs in the computer games, and a full laser strike doesn't automatically shut the machine down. Heck, it doesn't even reach the first shutdown check.

But it's not even good at that. It doesn't hold anywhere near enough ammunition for that kind of role. And if the lasers are intended to be used as supplementary weapons, it needs more heat sinks. And its armor is still paper thin, so one fighter making a strafing run turns it into tiny little Rifleman-shaped bits. It is a BAD design. It's one of the few machines that I can't look at, make a couple tweaks, and turn into something that's not a glorified suicide booth.

[Winterwind]

Except for the lack of jump jets. Those make a world of difference in rough terrain. The Ice Ferret is fast and all, but only in an open field. A Nova, while slower in the open, is more mobile in most conditions. And let's not ignore the ever-sexy Mist Lynx.The Nova is even heavier than the Ice Ferret, and firmly a medium 'Mech, too, though. As for the Mist Lynx, it is admittedly making a brave effort, but if you consider how much more armour and firepower the Ice Ferret has, while running without heat-build-up, I still think the advent of the XL-engine means medium 'Mechs can fulfill the roles usually fulfilled by light 'Mechs, and do so better.


Still, with the tweaks they're making to the gameplay, allowing for light 'Mechs in general to have a better overall role in combat than previous MechWarrior games, the possibility is there that each model of light 'Mech could excel in certain ways, meaning even the Ice Ferret wouldn't be able to top them. The Ice Ferret would likely have it's own specialization in some way.Yes... now note that I specified it's Clan technology (and level-2 technology in general) that renders light 'Mechs obsolete, and the distinct lack of level-2 technology in 3015. Of course light 'Mechs will have a role of their own in this game - the things that render them obsolete have not been invented yet! :smalltongue:

[Alex Knight]

But it's not even good at that. It doesn't hold anywhere near enough ammunition for that kind of role. And if the lasers are intended to be used as supplementary weapons, it needs more heat sinks. And its armor is still paper thin, so one fighter making a strafing run turns it into tiny little Rifleman-shaped bits. It is a BAD design. It's one of the few machines that I can't look at, make a couple tweaks, and turn into something that's not a glorified suicide booth.


seriously? Sad. One tweak eliminates the heat issues by giving it DHS :P

Also, all it needs to do is hit the incoming aircraft once and a.) there's a chance of internal damage and b.) there's a chance that the plane will lawn-dart. Now, it's worth noting that all three of your complaints (not enough ammo, not enough armor, not enough heat sinks) are mentioned in the game's own fluff. It's recognized as a design that tries to do too much with too little. It's *still* not a "glorified suicide booth*. That dubious honor goes to the CGR-1A1 Charger.

[psilontech]

Kotaku article. Awesome video at end.

http://kotaku.com/5310586/new-mechwarrior-game-confirmed-will-reboot-series

[KnightDisciple]

That video is awesome. Especially when the dude totally freaks when he sees the Atlas.

Gotta add my love for the classic Marauder. Especially since some of my first Battletech exposure was the old Grey Death Legion trilogy.

The Rifleman looked nifty; it just didn't deliver on the promise, as it were.

Also, on the "Gundams don't look like walking tanks, I have to answer with my two favorite designs from any Gundam series so far:
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/GundamVirtue1.jpg
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/GundamSeravee1.jpg

[blackouttwo]

That video is awesome. Especially when the dude totally freaks when he sees the Atlas.

Gotta add my love for the classic Marauder. Especially since some of my first Battletech exposure was the old Grey Death Legion trilogy.

The Rifleman looked nifty; it just didn't deliver on the promise, as it were.

Also, on the "Gundams don't look like walking tanks, I have to answer with my two favorite designs from any Gundam series so far:
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/GundamVirtue1.jpg
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/GundamSeravee1.jpg

Well....Those are compelling arguments. :smalleek:

Anyhow, seeing the trailer makes me feel like starting a MechWarrior PbP game again, like the one I ran on GitP a few years ago.

[TheThan]

I have fond memories of the mechwarrior games. I also really enjoyed both the clixs game and classic battletech. So I’m all over this like white on rice.

[13_CBS]

Hee hee, I'm playing through an old copy of Mechwarrior 3 right now, with cheats for great justice.

9 Large Lasers firing at once + precision aiming garnered from years of playing FPS games + heat management cheats = BOOM LEGSHOT

[DranWork]

"kill the meat save the metal" A quote that has stuck in my head from being a young boy and hearing a grizzled vet say that to my noob arse.

Having played every Mech game made I am more then excited to see this. Its about damn time!!!

Even if i do believe that the mech:merc games where better then the orignal mech games :D

[Gralamin]

Good news! According to The Escapist, Battletech.com is going to offer FREE downloads of Mechwarrior 4 and its expansions to mark the 25th anniversary of Battletech! :smallbiggrin:



Article here (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/93031-New-Mechwarrior-Confirmed-UPDATED).

This is relevant to my interests. As is this thread.

I have sadly only played Mech Warrior 2, but enjoyed the game greatly.

[Hawriel]

Sword Guy thanks for the heads up. I shall look forward to this game.



Edit

I should say after seeing the second links vidio, I almost cried a little. Half a tier. However I must point out that the Atlas should have smeard the hell out of the Warhammer alot faster than it did. Unless its AC 20 was out of ammo.

[ZeroNumerous]

Timber Wolves (stop with that Inner Sphere "Mad Cat" nonsense! :smalltongue:) are Clan 'Mechs.

You clanner scum! :smalltongue:

I've always favored the Inner Sphere over the Clans because of what the Clans are. Elitist jerkwads.

[Rustic Dude]

You clanner scum! :smalltongue:

I've always favored the Inner Sphere over the Clans because of what the Clans are. Elitist jerkwads.

¡I support this affirmation, sir! :smallbiggrin:

In the old times....we hadn't all that fancy omnigizmos...

[JellyPooga]

"kill the meat save the metal"

"Good Morning! How does it feel to be strapped into a walking nuke-reactor at 7am?"

"Shoot me even once and I'll turn that tin-can you call a Mech into scrap"

"I love night-fighting; you can really see a mans fear in thermograph"

...I loved Sergeant Unther :smallbiggrin:

[banthesun]

Hey everyone, this one is just Mechwarrior, they're starting again, so I'm actually expecting a bit of a retcon on their part. Perhaps Dashis and Mad Cats fighting with dodgy technology? Is that too much to ask?

[Swordguy]

Hey everyone, this one is just Mechwarrior, they're starting again, so I'm actually expecting a bit of a retcon on their part. Perhaps Dashis and Mad Cats fighting with dodgy technology? Is that too much to ask?

3015 setting. The Clans don't enter into the picture until 3049. So no Mad Cat/Timber Wolf, and no Daishi/Dire Wolf for anyone.

HOWEVER - they want the multiplayer "conquest" game to advance in the timeline. It'd be an interesting expansion once that advancing timeline hits 3049 to have the Invading Clans become a playable faction in multiplayer and try to conquer the Inner Sphere. :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To be honest, I'm GLAD they don't have Clans there. Clans = easymode. Come on, when Clans were first put out, they were like... win buttons against anything equal tonnage.

I actually LIKE having to do... oh, I dunno... TACTICS... in my tactical game. Walking up and blowing stuff up is not tactics, and that's pretty much what Clan did to Battletech. With DHS and their uber energy weapons, they made all other forms of weapons, except maybe the clan SRM Streaks, obsolete overnight.

I'd like to see some actual challenge in my game, not just someone with 15 DHS and three Clan ERPPC's and Clan Targeting Computer blowing everything up in one round at extreme range with no heat buildup.

I remember my 3025 days fondly. It took a LONG TIME to kill a Mech, because they were that tough. It took group tactics to make a decisive victory that your opponent couldn't simply run from. That was a fun and entertaining game.

The only way I was able to stand Clan was being able to whup up on them using only IS technology (albiet Tech 2 IS tech. Doing it with Tech 1 is... more challenging). That required using my brain for something other than a blunt object.

[Thanatos 51-50]

You know, I still haven't played a Mechwarrior since 2 (I think it was 2).

I still love the Stormcrow. I want me a Stormcrow.

[Malek]

To be honest, I'm GLAD they don't have Clans there. Clans = easymode. Come on, when Clans were first put out, they were like... win buttons against anything equal tonnage.

Interestingly enough I've read recently that from game balance perspective (in Battletech not MW that is) the desing supposedly was to have IS use two lances for every Clan star on the opposite side.


That video is awesome. Especially when the dude totally freaks when he sees the Atlas.
What annoyed me is that the pilod rushed forward like an complete idiot, instead waithing a few seconds to let the dust settle (even more annoying when I realized on second watching that the Atlas actually was visible for a moment a few seconds before Warhammer bumped into it). But still I agree, the video was quite awesome.

[Winterwind]

You clanner scum! :smalltongue:

I've always favored the Inner Sphere over the Clans because of what the Clans are. Elitist jerkwads.I am the first one to admit that, due to MW2 having been my first contact with BattleTech at all, my view of the Clans may be a bit... overly idealistic. :smalltongue:


Hey everyone, this one is just Mechwarrior, they're starting again, so I'm actually expecting a bit of a retcon on their part. Perhaps Dashis and Mad Cats fighting with dodgy technology? Is that too much to ask?That would not be a bit of a retcon, that would be saying "F*** you" to everyone even moderately familiar with the background. Clan 'Mechs are simply a no-go in 3015.


To be honest, I'm GLAD they don't have Clans there. Clans = easymode. Come on, when Clans were first put out, they were like... win buttons against anything equal tonnage.

[...]

The only way I was able to stand Clan was being able to whup up on them using only IS technology (albiet Tech 2 IS tech. Doing it with Tech 1 is... more challenging). That required using my brain for something other than a blunt object.Well, umm, you realize, of course, that tonnage is not meant to be used as equalizer? Even with Tech 1 only, this would imply a Banshee is worth more than an Awesome, and I do not think I need to explain how ridiculous a notion that is?
And that, when one uses BattleValue (you know, that thing that was designed to evaluate a 'Mech's performance in order to come up with balanced battles), it is not unusual at all for Clans to be facing twice as much tonnage on the IS side or more?
Frankly, at least with BV1, I consider it more difficult to win with Clans against a supposedly BV-appropriate IS force than the other way around.

I mean, of course the Clans have it easier when you play with equal tonnage. They are strictly superior in every regard - they were meant to bring in the dynamic of one side having less, but superior 'Mechs against the IS vastly superior numbers. And if you give one side as big an advantage as giving them, practically, twice as much as they actually should have in a battle, it is no surprise they neglect tactics and simply walk up to the enemy to blast them. With such a superiority, such sledgehammer tactics might actually be the most sensible thing to do. But it will not work if one actually uses balanced teams - then, the Clan player will have to use proper tactics just as much as the IS player, if not more so, to have a chance to win.

You complaining the Clans broke BattleTech because you use something as equalizer not meant to be used as equalizer would be akin to me saying that "we always play with equal 'Mech numbers in our group, and assault 'Mechs totally break the game, the player who takes only them just walks up and shoots my light-only 'Mechs to pieces, assault 'Mechs break BattleTech!". Well, d'uh, what else should one expect if one uses a wrong equalizer?

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Wow, great news. Also glad to see some honest to goodness battletech fans on the forum.


Just watched the clip. Mmmm...Jenner...Jager...foot?


Egads, that was phenomal. Finally i'll get to a fedrat again.

[mangosta71]

seriously? Sad. One tweak eliminates the heat issues by giving it DHS :P

DHS are not available in 3015.


Also, all it needs to do is hit the incoming aircraft once and a.) there's a chance of internal damage and b.) there's a chance that the plane will lawn-dart. Now, it's worth noting that all three of your complaints (not enough ammo, not enough armor, not enough heat sinks) are mentioned in the game's own fluff. It's recognized as a design that tries to do too much with too little. It's *still* not a "glorified suicide booth*. That dubious honor goes to the CGR-1A1 Charger.

That's all well and good if there's only one attacking aerospace fighter. The problem is that they tend to attack in flights of four, while a lance of 'Mechs would probably not have more than one of any particular type. Also, if even the fluff admits that the design is trying to do too much with too little, the piece of junk should never have passed any kind of QA testing. Any competent reviewer would have either told the design team to go back to the drawing board or, preferably, had them shot. There is no reason it should have been built. Ever. If they wanted an anti-aircraft platform, they should have used a larger chassis, a smaller engine (can't run from an aerospace fighter anyway, so there's no reason to make it fast, or even average speed), and a different weapons suite. The low-caliber autocannons are too much tonnage for not enough punch, and the larger-caliber autocannons lack the range you need. I'd suggest twin PPCs, with the heat sinks to be able to use them (unlike the Warhammer and Marauder).

[Erloas]

If they wanted an anti-aircraft platform, they should have used a larger chassis, a smaller engine (can't run from an aerospace fighter anyway, so there's no reason to make it fast, or even average speed), and a different weapons suite. The low-caliber autocannons are too much tonnage for not enough punch, and the larger-caliber autocannons lack the range you need. I'd suggest twin PPCs, with the heat sinks to be able to use them (unlike the Warhammer and Marauder).

You have to remember that a lot of these 'Mechs were built based on fluff first and foremost. The time period we are talking about was defined by the lack of resources to do what needs to be done.
When you consider that a PPC is about twice the cost of an AC/5 that adds a lot of price to the 'Mech, and its very possible that it was designed by a company that didn't have easy access to PPCs. Thats not the sort of stuff that comes up in gameplay, C-bills are something tracked but never actually done, same with manufacturers, etc. but is very important to the universe itself. Its also not like bumping up the chassis is a practical idea either, that increases costs and increases the amount of resources needed by a lot, and not something the houses of that era could easily support.

As far as running hot, almost every 'Mech of that era ran hot, it was just how things were. However, at least with 2 AC/5s it could shoot them a lot without having heat issues, even if it couldn't use the LLs much.
Also if my memory serves me correctly ACs have a bonus to hitting aircrafts(or at least used to, I don't know if this is the case any more, I know the LB-X ones with the scatter shot have the bonus still), where as energy weapons do not get that bonus. So if you wanted an anti-aircraft 'Mech you would naturally put ACs on it instead of energy weapons.

Almost all tech level 1/early era 'Mechs had issues like that. They were very much based on fluff rather then on being the statistically most powerful they could be. In fact it is that non-optimized aspect of the early eras that make it more interesting and more appealing to some players. Its not like the Clan eras where it was getting the biggest most powerful 'Mechs you could find without any drawbacks at all and act like armored turrets.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am the first one to admit that, due to MW2 having been my first contact with BattleTech at all, my view of the Clans may be a bit... overly idealistic. :smalltongue:

That would not be a bit of a retcon, that would be saying "F*** you" to everyone even moderately familiar with the background. Clan 'Mechs are simply a no-go in 3015.

Well, umm, you realize, of course, that tonnage is not meant to be used as equalizer? Even with Tech 1 only, this would imply a Banshee is worth more than an Awesome, and I do not think I need to explain how ridiculous a notion that is?
And that, when one uses BattleValue (you know, that thing that was designed to evaluate a 'Mech's performance in order to come up with balanced battles), it is not unusual at all for Clans to be facing twice as much tonnage on the IS side or more?
Frankly, at least with BV1, I consider it more difficult to win with Clans against a supposedly BV-appropriate IS force than the other way around.

I mean, of course the Clans have it easier when you play with equal tonnage. They are strictly superior in every regard - they were meant to bring in the dynamic of one side having less, but superior 'Mechs against the IS vastly superior numbers. And if you give one side as big an advantage as giving them, practically, twice as much as they actually should have in a battle, it is no surprise they neglect tactics and simply walk up to the enemy to blast them. With such a superiority, such sledgehammer tactics might actually be the most sensible thing to do. But it will not work if one actually uses balanced teams - then, the Clan player will have to use proper tactics just as much as the IS player, if not more so, to have a chance to win.

You complaining the Clans broke BattleTech because you use something as equalizer not meant to be used as equalizer would be akin to me saying that "we always play with equal 'Mech numbers in our group, and assault 'Mechs totally break the game, the player who takes only them just walks up and shoots my light-only 'Mechs to pieces, assault 'Mechs break BattleTech!". Well, d'uh, what else should one expect if one uses a wrong equalizer?

Even if you use the PB system, Clan still usually stomps IS into the ground unless IS specifically is set up to counter Clan tactics (like standing outside your effective range and pummel you with ERPPC's at no heat buildup until you either come out and face them or they get lucky with a headshot).

Clan Tech is what breaks the game. It removes any and all problems with Energy weapons with DHS, which is probably the single most game-breaking item ever put forth. Every weapon system was supposed to have a 'downside' to it. Ballsitics were tonnage heavy and had ammo limits, but were very low heat compared to energy. Energy was very heat-intensive, but lightweight and unlimited ammo. Missiles were to be somewhere between the two, but have accuracy problems.

With Clan Tech, that all changed. Suddenly, you CAN have 3 ERPPC's in a mech and STILL not draw significant heat with an alpha strike. Suddenly, with SRM Streak systems, you negated the problem with only some missiles hitting your target, and made their ammo problem even easier since they didn't fire unless they got a lock-on. Ballistics were limited to either the 20AC (either Ultra or LBX) or Gauss. Everything else became obsolete overnight.

Suddenly, you had mechs who had no drawbacks. They didn't have ANY problems, and were nigh unstoppable unless you ALSO had 'perfect' mechs, or you had a stupid tonnage advantage.

I don't want a world with 'perfect' mechs. If I wanted that, I'd go watch Gundam or Areotech or whatever anime flavor of the week. I want a down and dirty gritty system where you are in a post-apocalyptic setting, where the mechs have flaws, and you have to learn how to compensate for them. Being flawless is... boring.

[Thanatos 51-50]

As a disclaimer, I've only played two Mechwarrior games:
Mechwarrior 3050 (The SNES game where you were forced into the Mad Cat and had an Isometric view of the battlefield)
Mechwarrior 2

I'm not big on the lore, because, let's face it, I wasn't the big into lore when I was that young, and not much lore was actually introducedd in the games.
The graphics on the trailer look absolutely gorgeous, and the game looks fun to play (the gameplay looks like it's begging for a team deathmatch mode, too). I sincerely hope that there is some of the lore packaged into the game this time, so newbies (like myself) into the franchise can get a better introduction that I did (Pick the heavy lasers, go to town.)

I'm a little bit upset that it's too early in the timeline ofr my beloved Storm Crow, but it seems like I'm the only one who cared about that 'Mech in the first place.
I look foward, as a realative newbie to the whole BattleTech 'verse, to this game.
And sincerly hope that it come sout on the '360, because there is no way in the nine hells my computer can handle those graphics without lagging to the point of unplayability.

[revolver kobold]

To all you BattleTech veterans out there, how would you recommend going about getting into the tabletop versions of the game? Any particular editions stand out above others?

My experience I've had with the games is limited to Mechwarrior 2, Ghost Bears Legacy and Merchwarrior 2: Mercenaries.

[Alex Knight]

Unlike 40k, there's basically only ONE version of Battletech, and it's remained more or less the same for 25 years.

www.classicbattletech.com is the main website for the game, and you can download the quick strike rules for free and start playing with Introductory-level 'Mechs right away.

for rules levels there's the following:

Introductory -- Basic Inner Sphere stuff, no Double Heat Sinks, or Pulse Lasers, or Gauss Rifles

Tournament -- All the fun toys you remember from Mechwarrior 2. Clan and Inner Sphere Gauss Rifles and the like.

Advanced -- "Every wanted to fight on the deck of a sinking aircraft carrier in the middle of a hurricane? Yeah, we got rules for that." Not only is Advanced play full of planetary conditions and nutty rules (throwing battle armor, always a plus), it has artillery and experimental technology, like Null Signature Systems, eXtended Pulse Lasers, Hyper-Velocity Autocannons and the like.

After getting your feet wet with the quick strike rules, I reccomend the Battletech Boxed set and TRO 3039. Those will give you a great grasp of the Introductory tech rules.

Follow that up with Total Warfare for tournament-level rules.

Tactical Operations and Strategic Operations have the really advanced stuff.

[Swordguy]

OK - a Brief Guide on Getting Into BattleTech:

No purchase necessary, first, go here and explore... A brief history of the Inner Sphere (http://www.classicbattletech.com/index.php?action=text&page=Game_Universe) - this is your initial burst of fluff about how the BT universe came to be and what it's like.

Your first purchase should DEFINITELY be the The Classic BattleTech Introductory Boxed Set (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_176_178&products_id=1971). It's specifically designed for new players, and is an incredibly good value. For $40 US, it contains:

* 24 unpainted, instantly ready-to-play plastic BattleMech miniatures (!! if you got these in metal, it'd be about $240 for the box RIGHT THERE !!)
* One 12-page full-color quick-start rulebook will have you into the action in minutes
* One 32-page book of pre-generated BattleMech Record Sheets (make Xeroxes of these)
* One 80-page full-color rulebook
* Inner Sphere at a Glance, a 48-page full-color book containing universe background and BattleMech technical data
* One 16-page full-color Painting and Tactics Guide (I can't state enough how valuable this is - it's a guide on making tactics work within the confines of the rules, not just giving you a bunch of random tactical principles from a dead guy and saying "have fun")
* Two heavy-duty cards of compiled tables (cheat sheets)
* Two 22" x 27" full-color mapsheets, with two different maps printed on either side (kinda flimsy, to be fair, but useful)
* Two six-sided dice
* One full-color, poster-sized map of the Inner Sphere circa 3067

I also highly recommend picking up Technical Readout:3039 (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_176_181&products_id=2039) - this'll give you a whole BUNCH of units to play with.

This is everything you need to play in the period at which the new video game will be set (the Succession Wars era - from 2800-3049).


............................................

If you'd like to move on in the timeline (say, into the Clan Invasion Period), then you'll want to pick up:

Technical Readout: 3050 Upgrade (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_176_181&products_id=1916), which introduces the Mechs of the Clans and the technical upgrade kits the Inner Sphere powers use to combat them. However, the rules for such (and all other tech past 3049) are contained in...

BattleTech: Total Warfare (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_176_178&products_id=1734)! A big, full-color, hardback book containing all the tournament-level rules (meaning this is what's used at cons - not that there's a not of Warhammer-esque competitive tournaments for BattleTech) for the game. This is THE rulebook.

Finally, if you want to build your own Mechs, I suggest TechManual (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_176_178&products_id=1876) - an entire book on how to build every sort of tournament-legal machine in the game. The giant spacefaring WarShips are not found in this book (or in tournament-level rules) - they'll be in the upcoming book, Interstellar Operations, which is due out next year.

.................................................. .......

There's a LOT of stuff, and it's frankly as intimidating as hell for a new player. Grab the boxed set and decide if you like the basic game, THEN commit to the rest of it. At worst, you're out $40, so you and your girl see one less movie that month. :smallwink:

Finally, if you have any questions, there's the official BattleTech forum (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php), where some 2000 players actively post and hang out (with another 7000+ lurkers), where you can ask questions directly to The Powers the Be (and get timely answers too!). Come and join the fun!



EDIT
*Waves to Alex* It's Darrian Wolffe from CBT! Sup? Didn't know you were over here! You're gonna be there at GenCon this year, yeah?

[Alex Knight]

EDIT
*Waves to Alex* It's Darrian Wolffe from CBT! Sup? Didn't know you were over here! You're gonna be there at GenCon this year, yeah?

Eh, if I can get someone to share m'room with me, then probably.

[Swordguy]

Eh, if I can get someone to share m'room with me, then probably.

I know what you mean, we're splitting a hotel room and travel costs 5 ways. :smalleek:


Anyway, we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. :smallwink:

[revolver kobold]

Thanks Swordguy, that is amazingly useful. I'll have to investigate down at my local hobby shop and see what they have in stock.

[Timberwolf]

I'm pretty damn excited. My old Mechwarrior 4 team's boards just sprang back to life with people who haven't been seen in ages. Major zombie invasion type of coming back from the dead.

So I'll say just one thing to the makers of this game,

Please, please, please make it good. Take your time, iron out the bugs, make it awesome.

((While all my favourite mechs are Clan, well, the Clan invasion and after has been done in the games. It'll be a nice change to see a bit earlier in the timeline. I'm all for this. Perhaps they will, as someone said, introduce the Clans when that in game timeline hits 3049. It'll be interesting to see if they do do that with later models of Spheroid mechs as well.))

[revolver kobold]

My only worry is that they butcher the controls to make it work a bit better for a console.

If you are not using every key on your keyboard, its not Mechwarrior.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Hey, I for one won't mind slightly simplified gameplay on my console.

Just, please, for the Love of God, don't make it a stylized FPS.

[Istari]

They better have the Zeus, it was my favorite mech ever and I was extremely sad when it wasn't included in MW4 except in that one expansion pack

[The Glyphstone]

"Good Morning! How does it feel to be strapped into a walking nuke-reactor at 7am?"

"Shoot me even once and I'll turn that tin-can you call a Mech into scrap"

"I love night-fighting; you can really see a mans fear in thermograph"

...I loved Sergeant Unther :smallbiggrin:

I can still hear those lines in the original voice-actor's sounds.....thanks for the memories....:smallcool:

[Mo_the_Hawked]

They better have the Zeus, it was my favorite mech ever and I was extremely sad when it wasn't included in MW4 except in that one expansion pack

You can probably expect the Zues. It's the standard Assault of the Stieners.


Also Gencon...Mmmm...barrel mech parts...I want to go to Gencon just to blow a 100 bucks on the barrel-o-parts. And just see what I get. Although down side probably a bunch uggo post 67s.

[13_CBS]

For anyone who plays/played Mechwarrior 4: Vengeance...

What is the absolute maximum firepower you can bring to bear? Forget about heat requirements, armor weigt, or ammo concerns, I just want the combination of mech and weaponry required for absolute, "Almost Enough Dakka" level firepower. I'm going to turn all the cheats on, so feel free to strip the mech of all armor, heat sinks, and extra equipment.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For anyone who plays/played Mechwarrior 4: Vengeance...

What is the absolute maximum firepower you can bring to bear? Forget about heat requirements, armor weigt, or ammo concerns, I just want the combination of mech and weaponry required for absolute, "Almost Enough Dakka" level firepower. I'm going to turn all the cheats on, so feel free to strip the mech of all armor, heat sinks, and extra equipment.

With those cheats, it doesn't MATTER how much dakka you have in your mech, you will win anyways.

Having said that, Gauss for long-distance punishment, SRM6Streaks for up-close, and Clan ERPPC's for all-round damage. Oh, and if you want something to suppliment the SRM6's... UAC/20.

I'd probably put a UAC/20 in one arm, the Gauss in the other, SRM6 Streak + PPC in each side torso. That would be... pretty obnoxious damage.

[13_CBS]

With those cheats, it doesn't MATTER how much dakka you have in your mech, you will win anyways.

Having said that, Gauss for long-distance punishment, SRM6Streaks for up-close, and Clan ERPPC's for all-round damage. Oh, and if you want something to suppliment the SRM6's... UAC/20.

I'd probably put a UAC/20 in one arm, the Gauss in the other, SRM6 Streak + PPC in each side torso. That would be... pretty obnoxious damage.

Hmm...how does that loadout compare to 6 ER Large Lasers and two Clan Gauss Rifles on a Daishi? If all the shots are placed on the center torso, I can two shot any mech, though the recycling rate is pretty slow.

[Erloas]

Zeus can probably be expected, since it was one of the primary assault 'Mechs of the early eras. However its not a guarentee since it was primarily a Steiner 'Mech and the game is focusing on a conflict between the house Davion and Draconis Combine and neither of those houses tended to use the Zues.

Since I happened to have a faction list for Battletech I went ahead and sorted it by Davion and Draconis and by tech level 1, ie early eras, to see what type of 'Mechs we can expect to see

Draconis Combine

{table]'Mech|weight
Wasp WSP-1K | 20
Mongoose MON-67 | 25
Hussar HSR-300-D | 30
Spider SDR-5K | 30
Spider SDR-5V | 30
Jenner JR7-D | 35
Jenner JR7-F | 35
Panther PNT-9R | 35
Clint CLNT-2-4T | 40
Hermes III HER-4K | 40
Phoenix Hawk PXH-1K | 45
Wyvern WVE-6N | 45
Crab CRB-20 | 50
Trebuchet TBT-7K | 50
Shadow Hawk SHD-2K | 55
Wolverine WVR-6K | 55
Dragon DRG-1C | 60
Dragon DRG-1N | 60
Grand Dragon DRG-1G | 60
Lancelot LNC25-02 | 60
Catapult CPLT-C1 | 65
Catapult CPLT-K2 | 65
Crusader CRD-3K | 65
JagerMech JM6-S | 65
Archer ARC-2K | 70
Warhammer WHM-6K | 70
Charger CGR-1A9 | 80
Thug THG-10E | 80
[/table]

Federated Sun (Davion)

{table]'Mech|weight
Hornet HNT-151 | 20
Locust LCT-1M | 20
Wasp WSP-1D | 20
Commando COM-2D | 25
Dart DRT-4S | 25
Falcon FLC-4N | 30
Javelin JVN-10F | 30
Spider SDR-5D | 30
Valkyrie VLK-QA | 30
Valkyrie VLK-QF | 30
Jenner JR7-D | 35
Wolfhound WLF-1 | 35
Assassin ASN-101 | 40
Clint CLNT-2-4T | 40
Blackjack BJ-1 | 45
Blackjack BJ-1DB | 45
Blackjack BJ-1DC | 45
Hatchetman HCT-3F | 45
Phoenix Hawk PXH-1D | 45
Enforcer ENF-4R | 50
Trebuchet TBT-7K | 50
Shadow Hawk SHD-2D | 55
Rifleman RFL-3C | 60
Rifleman RFL-4D | 60
Catapult CPLT-C1 | 65
Catapult CPLT-C4 | 65
Crusader CRD-3D | 65
Exterminator EXT-4A | 65
JagerMech JM6-A | 65
JagerMech JM6-S | 65
Cataphract CTF-1X | 70
Warhammer WHM-6D | 70
Warhammer WHM-6K | 70
Marauder MAD-3D | 75
BattleMaster BLR-1D | 85
Banshee BNC-3S | 95
King Crab KGC-0000 | 100
[/table]

Note that this is of course no guarentee as to what they are going to have. For instance they don't have an Atlas listed and we saw one of those in the video. This is just a list of the generally most available 'Mechs to a given faction, its not all inclusive.

And just to be all inclusive these are the 'Mechs that are common to the Inner Sphere in general for the time period. Which of course is where we see the Atlas.

{table]'Mech|weight
Wasp WSP-1A | 20
Mercury MCY-98 | 20
Stinger STG-3G | 20
Stinger STG-3R | 20
Locust LCT-1E | 20
Locust LCT-3V | 20
Locust LCT-1V | 20
Javelin JVN-10N | 30
UrbanMech UM-R60 | 30
Firestarter FS9-H | 35
Ostscout OTT-7J | 35
Cicada CDA-3C | 40
Clint CLNT-2-3T | 40
Vulcan VL-5T | 40
Assassin ASN-21 | 40
Whitworth WTH-1S | 40
Vulcan VL-2T | 40
Cicada CDA-2A | 40
Cicada CDA-2B | 40
Whitworth WTH-1 | 40
Phoenix Hawk PXH-1 | 45
Hunchback HBK-4N | 50
Hunchback HBK-4P | 50
Hunchback HBK-4SP | 50
Hunchback HBK-4H | 50
Hunchback HBK-4G | 50
Hunchback HBK-4J | 50
Trebuchet TBT-5N | 50
Centurion CN9-AH | 50
Chameleon CLN-7V | 50
Centurion CN9-A | 50
Wolverine WVR-6R | 55
Lineholder KW1-LH2 | 55
Kintaro KTO-18 | 55
Scorpion SCP-1N | 55
Shadow Hawk SHD-2H | 55
Dervish DV-6M | 55
Griffin GRF-1N | 55
Ostsol OTL-4D | 60
Ostroc OSR-2C | 60
Quickdraw QKD-4H | 60
Ostsol OTL-4F | 60
Quickdraw QKD-4G | 60
Ostroc OSR-3C | 60
Ostroc OSR-2L | 60
Champion CHP-2N | 60
Rifleman RFL-3N | 60
Quickdraw QKD-5A | 60
Crusader CRD-3R | 65
Thunderbolt TDR-5S | 65
Warhammer WHM-6R | 70
Archer ARC-2R | 70
Grasshopper GHR-5H | 70
Grasshopper GHR-5N | 70
Guillotine GLT-4L | 70
Orion ON1-K | 75
Marauder MAD-3R | 75
Awesome AWS-8R | 80
Victor VTR-9A1 | 80
Victor VTR-9A | 80
Awesome AWS-8Q | 80
Awesome AWS-8T | 80
Awesome AWS-8V | 80
Victor VTR-9B | 80
Charger CGR-1A1 | 80
Goliath GOL-1H | 80
Crockett CRK-5003-0 | 85
Stalker STK-3F | 85
Longbow LGB-7Q | 85
Longbow LGB-OW | 85
BattleMaster BLR-1G | 85
Stalker STK-4N | 85
Stalker STK-3H | 85
Cyclops CP-10-Q | 90
Cyclops CP-10-Z | 90
Banshee BNC-3E | 95
Atlas AS7-D | 100
[/table]

*edit: and for the most Dakka with cheats, I don't know MechWarrior 4, but I do have the Tech Manual here and I don't think the mechanics have changes that much. Pretty much the ER Large Lasers are the best for weapon damage versus tons and crit slots required. Filling out with more medium lasers for the last balancing. For instance you can fit 3 ER LL for the weight of 1 Gauss or UAC/20. PPCs come out a little closer, being 3LLs = 2 PPCs, though thats 3 crit slots vs 4 (depending if crit slots or tonnage is a more limiting factor) and at least in TT that is 3x10 damage vs 2x15 damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmm...how does that loadout compare to 6 ER Large Lasers and two Clan Gauss Rifles on a Daishi? If all the shots are placed on the center torso, I can two shot any mech, though the recycling rate is pretty slow.

ER Large Lasers are not as efficent as ER PPC's, although they are smaller. The two ER PPC's are probably as damaging as 3x ER Large Lasers. You've got two Gauss Rifles, my build only has one. However, it's got an UAC/20 which does more damage than BOTH of your Gauss rifles COMBINED. The SRM/6 Streaks each do 12 damage, which is more than an ER Laser does (which is 10)

So on the whole, my build has more damage output, but requires closer range to use it's higher damage output. At longer ranges, your build will out-damage mine, as the UAC/20 and the SRM6 Streaks won't be able to fire.

Depends on if you want to be a sniper or a close and crush fighter.

[13_CBS]

However, it's got an UAC/20 which does more damage than BOTH of your Gauss rifles COMBINED. The SRM/6 Streaks each do 12 damage, which is more than an ER Laser does (which is 10)

So on the whole, my build has more damage output, but requires closer range to use it's higher damage output. At longer ranges, your build will out-damage mine, as the UAC/20 and the SRM6 Streaks won't be able to fire.

Depends on if you want to be a sniper or a close and crush fighter.

Interesting ideas, but...

1) In Mechwarrior 4 Vengeance, there aren't any Ultra AC 20's :smallconfused: I guess they're in one of the expansions?

2) I just checked, and Clan Streak 6 missiles do 7.2 damage, while ER Large Lasers do 8. Furthermore, in my experience missiles actually tend to do LESS damage than lasers in combat since missile damage tends to be spread out more over the target mech.


What about the LBX shotgun weapons? Are they any good?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Interesting ideas, but...

1) In Mechwarrior 4 Vengeance, there aren't any Ultra AC 20's :smallconfused: I guess they're in one of the expansions?

2) I just checked, and Clan Streak 6 missiles do 7.2 damage, while ER Large Lasers do 8. Furthermore, in my experience missiles actually tend to do LESS damage than lasers in combat since missile damage tends to be spread out more over the target mech.


What about the LBX shotgun weapons? Are they any good?

LBX shotguns have the same problems Missiles have with being a 'sandblaster' and not hitting the same location. A regular Autocannon/20, however, still does more damage than any other weapon in the game.

SRM Streak + Targeting Computer = all missiles hit the same location.

I guess the game altered the SRM's from 'core' to keep them from being as effective. They should still be smaller than Large Lasers, though, which should make their tonnage to damage ratio better.

Also, how does a weapon do 7.2 damage? Seriously, that doesn't make any sense at ALL, unless it's trying to average... but you don't average with Streaks because ALL six missiles hit for 2 damage each... either there's a typo, or some really screwy number crunching going on...

[Rockphed]

On the first page, people mentioned the Unseen Mechs. What are they?

[Alex Knight]

On the first page, people mentioned the Unseen Mechs. What are they?

Let me 'splain.

...no, is to much, let me sum up.

Several classical Battletech designs, such as the Warhammer, Marauder, Rifleman, Locust, Crusader, and Phoenix Hawk had their images taken from various Japanese animes (most notably Robotech). FASA (the original owners of Battletech) thought they acquired the images legally. After a legal snafu a few years ago, they stopped showing any images of these 'Mechs in any form. The 'Mechs were still legal, and they still existed in the fluff, but there was no new art for them, and their miniatures were no longer sold. Thus, the "Unseen".

VERY recently, as in this month, that's all changed again. Battletech can once again use the images of the old designs.

[Hawriel]

Thanks Swordguy, that is amazingly useful. I'll have to investigate down at my local hobby shop and see what they have in stock.

When it comes to Battletech (or shadowrun) do what Sword Guy sais.

I got that box set about a year ago, at a boarders no less. It's as good as SG sais. Now if I can only get my friends back in the game.


EDit
On the Unseen anime desines.

Yes they had to drop the artwork for thoughs mechs. However when the game was picked up by another company (Fanpro?) and renamed "Classic" Battletech they made new artwork for thoughs mechs that looked very close to the original. I think alot of them are to skiny. Particularly the Battlemaster and the waists on the warhammer and riflemen.

[HandofShadows]

A judge stripped Harmony Gold's exclusive control of the US distribution rights of the images, and they're essentially public use in the US at this point.

I don't know who told you THAT story, but it's very inaccurate. The court case between Harmony GOld and FASA was settled out of court. The Judge never made a final rulling in the case.

[jamroar]

I don't know who told you THAT story, but it's very inaccurate. The court case between Harmony GOld and FASA was settled out of court. The Judge never made a final rulling in the case.

Is this related to the Tatsunoko/Studio Nue case ruling in Japan some time back? If so, shouldn't Harmony Gold have no exclusive rights whatsoever to the "Robotech" mechanical designs (via Tatsunoko) since those have been reinstated to the original creators (presumably S&T has some kind of arrangement with them)?

[revolver kobold]

When it comes to Battletech (or shadowrun) do what Sword Guy sais.

I got that box set about a year ago, at a boarders no less. It's as good as SG sais. Now if I can only get my friends back in the game.



I found an online store in Australia that stocks the starter box, as my local hobby store, while they have the rest of the rule books and minis, don't have it.

[stabbybelkar]

I am overwhelmed. MechWarrior 2 & 3 were practically my childhood, and now this new Mechwarrior looks to have the same gameplay style as the classics. This is like my dream come true! Now if only I had a computer good enough to run it. :smallsigh:

But seriously, the trailer looks phenomenal! I can't wait to see the game when it's released!

Amen to that man! MW2 was one of the first games I ever played as a kid (although I admit to never playing MW3) and MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries is one of my favorete games to dte. Those trailers brought me a serious Mechfanboy sqee from me!

[Timberwolf]

For anyone who plays/played Mechwarrior 4: Vengeance...

What is the absolute maximum firepower you can bring to bear? Forget about heat requirements, armor weigt, or ammo concerns, I just want the combination of mech and weaponry required for absolute, "Almost Enough Dakka" level firepower. I'm going to turn all the cheats on, so feel free to strip the mech of all armor, heat sinks, and extra equipment.

Ok, after some playing around I have come up with the following.



Both of these are for the Daishi.

They're a bit of a cheat really as they use arty strikes and they ramp up the raw damage without being monstrously efeective as the enemy has to be shut down for them to work. However, that's what the flamers that I included are for.

Config 1 - as I am a lucky lucky boy who has the Inner Sphere mech pack and therefore can include the heavy Gauss Rifle

2 x Flamer
2 x CLBX 10
2x CLBX 20
1 x HGR
2 x Arty strike

for a total, if everything hits right, 184 damage

Config 2 - for those without the HGR

2 x flamer
2 x CLBX 10
3 x CLBX 20
3 x Arty Strike

For a total raw damage of 220 but that's a sight less reliable as it really relys on the arty strike.



And on topic...

There's so many mechs there that I'm looking forward to trying out. Especially the Crusader. mediocre design maybe, but I always loved the look.

[HandofShadows]

Is this related to the Tatsunoko/Studio Nue case ruling in Japan some time back? If so, shouldn't Harmony Gold have no exclusive rights whatsoever to the "Robotech" mechanical designs (via Tatsunoko) since those have been reinstated to the original creators (presumably S&T has some kind of arrangement with them)?

The Japanese court case only covered Japan. International rights where not changed in any way. While the Japanes companies may own the images, they don't have merchandising rights. And stuff like games (computer and board), minatures and the like would all be merchandise. How Catalyst brought the mechs back, I don't know. If they want to tell us they will. But I think it's best to just be happy they are back and keep going from there. :) sm

[Swordguy]

I don't know who told you THAT story, but it's very inaccurate. The court case between Harmony GOld and FASA was settled out of court. The Judge never made a final rulling in the case.

Sorry - I wasn't clear. In discussing the Unseen situation with a friend who IS an IP lawyer (whilst I am most definitively not), that is his reckoning on the only possible way in which Catalyst could have gotten the ability to bring the Unseens back. A Japanese Judge somewhere would have had to rule that HG does not have the exclusive rights to the images internationally, or that Studio Nue wasn't able to give an "exclusive" license in the first place.

Thus, the statement "a judge stripped Harmony Gold's..." is in reference to the very recent ability of CGL to get the Unseen back, not in reference to the 1995 FASA v Harmony Gold case. And if nobody CAN license them for international distribution (Studio Nue only holds the exclusive rights in Japan) then by definition they're "public use" when NOT in Japan.

In my defense, look at the time stamp on the post. 6am is a difficult time at which to speak clearly for me. My bad. :smalltongue:

[EleventhHour]

For anyone who plays/played Mechwarrior 4: Vengeance...

What is the absolute maximum firepower you can bring to bear? Forget about heat requirements, armor weigt, or ammo concerns, I just want the combination of mech and weaponry required for absolute, "Almost Enough Dakka" level firepower. I'm going to turn all the cheats on, so feel free to strip the mech of all armor, heat sinks, and extra equipment.

Actually, you can manage a fairly heavy armoured, well heat-sink'd, though ammo dependant heavy hitter without removing everything. (Aside from the engine to min, if you'd like.)

Using a Longbow :
6 CLRM 20's (+ a clan medium pulse laser or a pair of ER C Medium Lasers)
The Clan LRM20 has the best Damage-to-wieght ratio, though the missles don't all hit in the same place negating the main objective. (The SSRM6 might actually be better, but come on, 36 short range missles, or 120 missles with maximum range?)

Using a Sunder (More direct-damage oriented)
4 Clan ER PPC's
+ 1 Missle weapon (Varies by how many heat sinks your willing to remove, the Arrow IV would be best to keep with the DD theme.)

Note : These aren't the best-possible-builds, just a pair that I like for damage output. :smallsmile:

[13_CBS]

Well, I just played some Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries, so I now have access to some other weapons like the Ultra AC 20.

So far, I've found that 6 ER Large Lasers and 2 AC 20's on a Daishi can one shot pretty much anything lighter than a heavily armored Heavy, and two shot anything else (assuming that all shots connect with the center torso).

[Timberwolf]

Lots of very useful config advice

Tell ya what, shall we move this over to another thread ? Leave this one for MW5 and discuss builds for MW 4 till our hearts are content here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6486248#post6486248)

[HandofShadows]

Sorry - I wasn't clear. In discussing the Unseen situation with a friend who IS an IP lawyer (whilst I am most definitively not), that is his reckoning on the only possible way in which Catalyst could have gotten the ability to bring the Unseens back. A Japanese Judge somewhere would have had to rule that HG does not have the exclusive rights to the images internationally, or that Studio Nue wasn't able to give an "exclusive" license in the first place.

Didn't happen that way though. I have read a translation of the papers and Tatsunoko's (and HG's) international rights were solidly confirmed in it.



Thus, the statement "a judge stripped Harmony Gold's..." is in reference to the very recent ability of CGL to get the Unseen back, not in reference to the 1995 FASA v Harmony Gold case. And if nobody CAN license them for international distribution (Studio Nue only holds the exclusive rights in Japan) then by definition they're "public use" when NOT in Japan.

I think your friend missed a possibility. That there was some sort of deal between HG and Catalyst. But if there was a deal, no one is talking about it, as is their right.

[Jonzac]

Just dug out my original BT, City Tech and AeroTech boxes and man that was a trip down memory lane. I also found my ORIGINAL TRO 3025 and the Zeus was in it.

I'm looking forward to fighting in the Unseen, I miss them. I was just reading "Mercenary Star" by William Keith again and it was full of Riflemen, Shadow Hawks, Wasps, Stinger and other goodness. It also reminded me of the fluff on why things were so inaccurate....cobbled together computers that were 200 years old and stuff like that....I'm hoping that is the flavor we get from this game and that it picks up a publisher looking for that type of game as well.

[mangosta71]

For anyone who plays/played Mechwarrior 4: Vengeance...

What is the absolute maximum firepower you can bring to bear? Forget about heat requirements, armor weigt, or ammo concerns, I just want the combination of mech and weaponry required for absolute, "Almost Enough Dakka" level firepower. I'm going to turn all the cheats on, so feel free to strip the mech of all armor, heat sinks, and extra equipment.

Or you could go with a Warhawk (Masakari among heretics) and switch out the ERPPCs for Large Pulse Lasers. Targeting computer so your shots always land on the mark, enough damage in a volley to 2-shot anything, and no heat buildup. (In the boardgame, this configuration smokes the Prime because it doesn't have heat issues and its weapons are more accurate. This is the "sniper Mech" that people talk about in fear and awe.)


OK - a Brief Guide on Getting Into BattleTech:

No purchase necessary, first, go here and explore... A brief history of the Inner Sphere (http://www.classicbattletech.com/index.php?action=text&page=Game_Universe) - this is your initial burst of fluff about how the BT universe came to be and what it's like.

Finally finished reading through this, and I saw something that started nagging me while I was actually reading the books until I finally put them down. Victor has become the Mary Sue of the BT universe.

[Erloas]

I'm not sure if I know all the looks of the original Unseen. But in at least some cases I like the look of the re-sculpts more then the originals. I think the new Marauder looks a lot better.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that checks CamoSpecs.com every week to see all the new models people have painted up. I would almost say they inspire me to do more interesting things with my 'Mechs, but unfortunately I can't since I never get around to painting them. They are on the list just after my Eldar army, because I'm actually getting a chance to play 40k.

Although one thing I like about Battletech is that is possible to paint lots of completely different looks for each 'Mech and still be usable. Doesn't exactly come across as a dedicated unit, but it doesn't stand out as much as it would in something like Warhammer/40k. It gives a lot of room for experimentation with schemes.

I wonder when we will get more information on the free release of MechWarrior 4 since I'm looking forward to giving that a try soon. By the way, how much does the 'Mech customization in 4 compare to the table top game? Does it use all the same components and build mechanics or does it use its own system? I.e. is it possible to build any variation that is legal in the TT game in MW4 as well?

[Rustic Dude]

Are the Unseen Mechs the mechs that appear in the final pages of the first three books?

(You know, the trilogy that takes place before the Clan Invasion)

[Matthew]

Looking forward to this, but I have to admit that I was always a bigger fan of Mech Commander than Mech Warrior.

[Erloas]

Are the Unseen Mechs the mechs that appear in the final pages of the first three books?

(You know, the trilogy that takes place before the Clan Invasion)

The unseen 'Mechs are some specific 'Mechs that looked too much like 'Mechs from things with giant robots. Not all of the early 'Mechs were unseen, and it wasn't the names or anything like that, it was simply the visual design. It made no difference to the novels, unless they happened to have some pictures of the specific 'Mechs. The big thing was all of the 'Mech construction books that had pictures of all of the 'Mechs. All printed media that they had that included images of the 'Mechs could no longer be printed and were no longer official.

In most cases they simply redesigned the look of the 'Mech and keep everything else about them exactly the same.

The specific 'Mechs that are unseen are the original versions of the following 'Mechs:
Locust
VF-1 Valkyrie
Stinger
Stinger LAM - LAM model of above, illustrated in LAM or Hybrid mode
Wasp
Wasp LAM - LAM model of above illustrated in LAM or Hybrid mode
Valkyrie
Phoenix Hawk - VF-1S with FAST Packs
Phoenix Hawk LAM - LAM model of above illustrated in LAM or Hybrid mode
Crusader - Armored VF-1A
Ostroc
Ostsol
Ostscout
Archer
Warhammer
Rifleman
Longbow
Marauder
Marauder II
Shadow Hawk
Griffin
Scorpion
Wolverine
Thunderbolt
Goliath
Battlemaster

[mangosta71]

A number of the books even featured units that possessed the "Unseen" 'Mechs getting rid of them. Or the 'Mechs getting destroyed and not being salvaged. I refer you to Main Event and D.R.T. by James Long.

[Philistine]

In fairness, the protagonist's mercenary unit was pretty thoroughly trashed at the end of each of those books, Unseen 'Mechs or not. I refer you to the demolition of the protagonist's Charger in Main Event, and the Timber Wolf death ride in D.R.T. :smalltongue:

[Recaiden]

My first contact with BattleTech was MechWarrior 2 - the original "31st Century Combat" game, not any of the expansions or stand-alone MechWarrior 2: SOMETHING games. As you may remember, that game's story was the Refusal War - Clan Wolf against Clan Jade Falcon. So, to me, the Clans were what BattleTech was all about. I knew there was something called the Inner Sphere, but it seemed like a fairly unimportant element outside of what the universe was actually focusing on (you can imagine how surprised I was when I learnt the truth :smallbiggrin:).
And it's hardly God Mode when everyone is using those things only. :smallwink:

I can only agree completely with this.
Although maybe now I'll get something more recent than Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries.

[Rustic Dude]

The unseen 'Mechs are some specific 'Mechs that looked too much like 'Mechs from things with giant robots. Not all of the early 'Mechs were unseen, and it wasn't the names or anything like that, it was simply the visual design. It made no difference to the novels, unless they happened to have some pictures of the specific 'Mechs. The big thing was all of the 'Mech construction books that had pictures of all of the 'Mechs. All printed media that they had that included images of the 'Mechs could no longer be printed and were no longer official.

In most cases they simply redesigned the look of the 'Mech and keep everything else about them exactly the same.

The specific 'Mechs that are unseen are the original versions of the following 'Mechs:
Locust
VF-1 Valkyrie
Stinger
Stinger LAM - LAM model of above, illustrated in LAM or Hybrid mode
Wasp
Wasp LAM - LAM model of above illustrated in LAM or Hybrid mode
Valkyrie
Phoenix Hawk - VF-1S with FAST Packs
Phoenix Hawk LAM - LAM model of above illustrated in LAM or Hybrid mode
Crusader - Armored VF-1A
Ostroc
Ostsol
Ostscout
Archer
Warhammer
Rifleman
Longbow
Marauder
Marauder II
Shadow Hawk
Griffin
Scorpion
Wolverine
Thunderbolt
Goliath
Battlemaster

Thanks.

Those are the mechs I was refering to(The books they were in, are more than 10 years old). The Warhammer and the Valkyrie looked pretty awesome.

Fine pictures, by the way.

[blackouttwo]

I can only agree completely with this.
Although maybe now I'll get something more recent than Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries.


Get MW3 and MW3: Pirate's Moon. Gameplay is brilliant, and I think it's the most faithful installment of the series. Graphics are better than MW2, as well.

Now, MW4...Meeeeh. Take it or leave it.

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Draconis Combine

{table]'Mech|weight
Wasp WSP-1K | 20
Mongoose MON-67 | 25
Hussar HSR-300-D | 30
Spider SDR-5K | 30
Spider SDR-5V | 30
Jenner JR7-D | 35
Jenner JR7-F | 35
Panther PNT-9R | 35
Clint CLNT-2-4T | 40
Hermes III HER-4K | 40
Phoenix Hawk PXH-1K | 45
Wyvern WVE-6N | 45
Crab CRB-20 | 50
Trebuchet TBT-7K | 50
Shadow Hawk SHD-2K | 55
Wolverine WVR-6K | 55
Dragon DRG-1C | 60
Dragon DRG-1N | 60
Grand Dragon DRG-1G | 60
Lancelot LNC25-02 | 60
Catapult CPLT-C1 | 65
Catapult CPLT-K2 | 65
Crusader CRD-3K | 65
JagerMech JM6-S | 65
Archer ARC-2K | 70
Warhammer WHM-6K | 70
Charger CGR-1A9 | 80
Thug THG-10E | 80
[/table]


You have some the 3039 war mechs in there. Those are the down graded comstar models.


Warhawk...Targeting computer so your shots always land on the mark, enough damage in a volley to 2-shot anything, and no heat buildup....This is the "sniper Mech" that people talk about in fear and awe.)

No thats what we call the Munchmech :P

[Hawriel]

Get MW3 and MW3: Pirate's Moon. Gameplay is brilliant, and I think it's the most faithful installment of the series. Graphics are better than MW2, as well.

Now, MW4...Meeeeh. Take it or leave it.

My thoughts exactly.

[mangosta71]

Something that looked nice in the trailer was the PPC fire. I haven't played MW 3 or 4, but I remember in 2 PPCs shot big slow-moving blue balls that were easy to dodge. The trailer showed them like they're described in the books - bolts of blue lightning.

[Kane]

Uh... question? I've only played MW4, and as my post earlier in this thread indicate, I like the non-anthropomorphic walking juggernauts of gun-related death. (As opposed to stuff like gundams or evas or whatever.)

Now, I was bored and found the Battletech/mechwarrior wiki. (don't remember what it was called) and a lot of the older designs seem to be successively more 'anime'-ish.

Is this like, design evolution? (Or de-evolution since I'm looking back) or are some of the mechs (that evidently weren't in MW4) actually like that, and most of all, what designs should I be expecting for MW5?

[mangosta71]

All of the Unseen 'Mechs are taken directly from anime series, which is why they got in trouble for using those designs. You can figure that most, if not all of them will appear. The major difference is that in anime they're incredibly fast, graceful machines. In BT, and thus MW, they'll be big, slow, and clumsy.

If the story progresses through a significant amount of time, you'll see the less-humanoid designs appear more often. But these anime-based 'Mechs will be very common. Erloas posted a pretty good list of what kinds of machines you can expect to see in Reboot.

[revolver kobold]

Well, just got my Battletech Starter Box in the mail (Thanks to Swordguy and Alex Knight for pointing me in the right direction).

I'll give it a whirl over the weekend and let you all know how it went!

I suspect most of my Saturday will be spent furiously painting Mechs.

[Swordguy]

Well, just got my Battletech Starter Box in the mail (Thanks to Swordguy and Alex Knight for pointing me in the right direction).

I'll give it a whirl over the weekend and let you all know how it went!

I suspect most of my Saturday will be spent furiously painting Mechs.

A hint - since I don't know how much minis experience you have. I you feel like cleaning the mold lines off the plastic minis...use a brand-new Xacto knife. An older blade will cause the plastic to shred, instead of removing the excess cleanly. It's a function of the softness of the plastic as compared to, say, GW.

Have fun!

[Erloas]

I found the quality of the models in the starter box lacking. They weren't bad but they weren't good either. They are great to play with but I probably wouldn't spend a lot of time doing a really neat paint job on them, save that for the metals.
They are the only plastic models that they make. All of the metal models are of very high quality, although they do cost a lot more you also don't need a huge amount of them.

[Erloas]

Well I can't get my copy of Heavy Metal Pro to work off my old computer and don't have the disc any more to do a normal install so I'm going to look for a free 'Mech design program that can print character sheets. I'm wondering what everyone else uses.

I would also like to have one that includes all of the book 'Mechs from various eras so I can print them without having to rebuild each of them on my own. A good way to sort and print multiple 'Mechs at once would also be good. I will most likely just re-buy HMP at some point, but probably not until he finally gets around to finishing 6. Sure that could be another few years, because 6 has been in the works for that long already, but I'm just going to wait anyway.

[Swordguy]

Well I can't get my copy of Heavy Metal Pro to work off my old computer and don't have the disc any more to do a normal install so I'm going to look for a free 'Mech design program that can print character sheets. I'm wondering what everyone else uses.

I would also like to have one that includes all of the book 'Mechs from various eras so I can print them without having to rebuild each of them on my own. A good way to sort and print multiple 'Mechs at once would also be good. I will most likely just re-buy HMP at some point, but probably not until he finally gets around to finishing 6. Sure that could be another few years, because 6 has been in the works for that long already, but I'm just going to wait anyway.

http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/

Enjoy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well I can't get my copy of Heavy Metal Pro to work off my old computer and don't have the disc any more to do a normal install so I'm going to look for a free 'Mech design program that can print character sheets. I'm wondering what everyone else uses.

I would also like to have one that includes all of the book 'Mechs from various eras so I can print them without having to rebuild each of them on my own. A good way to sort and print multiple 'Mechs at once would also be good. I will most likely just re-buy HMP at some point, but probably not until he finally gets around to finishing 6. Sure that could be another few years, because 6 has been in the works for that long already, but I'm just going to wait anyway.

I use The Drawing Board (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/weirdozone/wargames/battletech/drawingboard.html) which can print out mech sheets either in text only, or the original full scale sheets complete with correctly applied armor and Internal Structure bubbles and crit hits tables.

It even lists mech designs sorted by the 'year' they came out. So all of your 3025 mechs are in the 3025 folder...

[HandofShadows]

To bad TDB is no longer supported anymore that I know of. :(

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To bad TDB is no longer supported anymore that I know of. :(

Works just fine for me...

[Swordguy]

Works just fine for me...

I believe the point is that TDB does not support BV2, for any of the new weapons from Total Warfare (plasma weapons, MMLs, etc). Thus, as long as you're playing a pre-3063 game, it's fine. If you're planning on playing after that, you need something else.

That's why I recommend Solaris SkunkWerks. It's up-to-date and has everything so far published. Heavy Metal Pro is having horrible issues, because BV2 is fundamentally borked, and CGL is trying to get it to work right. Until they figure it out, the HMP guys can't update their program. Nobody know how long this will go on (it's been an issue for 2-3 years now).

[jmbrown]

I enjoy the BattleTech setting and play with a 20+ year long club in the area but as a fan of video games I'm tired of the first person "cockpit sims." I'm more of a strategy gamer than an action gamer and personally I loved the MechCommander series. If someone releases a turn based game similar to the table top version (I like to think of the Front Mission series) or even an RPG that takes place mostly out of the cockpit it'd be a fresh change of pace.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I believe the point is that TDB does not support BV2, for any of the new weapons from Total Warfare (plasma weapons, MMLs, etc). Thus, as long as you're playing a pre-3063 game, it's fine. If you're planning on playing after that, you need something else.

That's why I recommend Solaris SkunkWerks. It's up-to-date and has everything so far published. Heavy Metal Pro is having horrible issues, because BV2 is fundamentally borked, and CGL is trying to get it to work right. Until they figure it out, the HMP guys can't update their program. Nobody know how long this will go on (it's been an issue for 2-3 years now).

Yes you can. MML's are IS tech only, but are available via Tech 2. The others, I believe, are Tech Level 3. You can adjust the tech level of your mech as desired.

[Winterwind]

If someone releases a turn based game similar to the table top version [...]Well, somebody did (http://megamek.sourceforge.net/idx.php?pg=main). For free, too. :smallwink:

[jmbrown]

Well, somebody did (http://megamek.sourceforge.net/idx.php?pg=main). For free, too. :smallwink:


Network or hotseat play for 2 or more players
A somewhat cunning AI opponent for offline play
Choice of ground, atmosphere, or space combat, using Total Warfare rules
Many of the optional rules and technology from Tactical Operations, including advanced terrain and planetary conditions
Map board selection and editing
Map boards based off official map packs included
Mech selection and support for some mech editors
Most official mech designs included
Color graphics

Whelp. Gonna need a fresh pair of pants. Excuse me...

[Erloas]

Well I've been using Solaris SkunkWerks for a little bit now and I like it well enough. I tried the Drawing Board some too but it just didn't fit right for me.

The only issue I have with Solaris SkunkWerks right now is the fact that when you do a 'Mech search it still shows all the BV as BV1 and not as BV2, so if you are doing a search based on BV it won't be right. Of course once you open up the file it converts to the correct BV2 values (I have an official list with a number of the standard 'Mechs BV2 values and I checked them against the program), and once you save them again then it shows up right in the search.

So a question, is there any way to update all of the 'Mech files with BV2 in the search section without having to open up and save each and every 'Mech file?

[Matthew]

Well, somebody did (http://megamek.sourceforge.net/idx.php?pg=main). For free, too. :smallwink:

Now that is worth knowing! :smallbiggrin:

[Erloas]

Well I say we just turn this into a Battletech in general thread. Since the previous threads on various aspects of Battletech have died, if we keep it all in one thread we can hopefully keep it alive.



So I'm looking to run a set of scenarios or maybe arena matches for my brother. I told him to pick out a few 'Mechs (he picked 3, rather then a full lance) and I would set up some encounters. He is still looking over what he is going to take, so I'm not sure exactly yet. He was thinking one assault 'Mech then the last two being light or medium (maybe a low end heavy). He was thinking about the King Crab for the assault. All the pilots start out at 4/5 and I gave him a total of -4/-5 points to distribute among his 3 pilots as he sees fit.

The plan at least for now is to run a gauntlet. Send wave after wave of 'Mechs and see how long he can last. I'm not sure if I should give him a chance to reload and make minor repairs between fights or just go right from one to the next. If he gets to repair it would be a question of how much repair between rounds, 1-2 crit slots and 4/5 armor/structure or some such.

I'll have to see exactly what 'Mechs he chooses to know what I need for a challenge. Not sure if I want to do a few medium and small 'Mechs or a single Assault or some other combination and I'm not sure how quickly I want to ramp up their power.
I doubt he'll be using any ECM, or C3 units, but I would expect to see quite a few of the top end weapons and builds. Not sure if he is going to go IS or Clan, or maybe a mix (and just call them Mercenaries), but all time periods are open.

[mangosta71]

If he picks a standard King Crab and you want to kill him, send waves with no chance to repair and reload between. He'll be out of ammo after the first encounter. The problem with those big ACs is that, for any kind of prolonged combat, you need 3-4 tons of ammunition (double that if you're packing an ultra), and the game designers rarely give them more than one. He would be better off sticking primarily to energy weapons if there's a question on maintenance time between bouts. Or, if he goes with IS tech and wants Solaris style and full customization is allowed, take a 100-ton chassis with a 400XL engine, triple strength myomer, maximum armor, a pair of claws and a whole lot of medium lasers. Even a 30-ton 'Mech with TSM can rip off anything's head with a claw if it's running at the right temperature. But you're asking what you should do...

It really depends. Do you want to rip him to shreds right off the bat? Close terrain, as in a city, with 'Mechs with claws. Let him take the trophy? Put him up against a lance of Riflemans. Make it a fairly even matchup? Well, then, as you say, it depends on what he picks.

[blackseven]

Oooh, coming late to the thread but this brings back memories.

My first real introduction to the BT-verse was via the cartoon. It's painful to watch now but it was awesome when I was... 12-ish.

I never played the TT game, but I did read through the 3rd Ed. rulebook (the compilation) multiple times, so I think I would have been able to play a demo or two. I bought a lot of Faction Books, like the Warden Clans book and the ComStar book. And of course I bought the 1st Somerset Strikers sourcebook.

I've read a ton of the novels, and played the TCG very enthusiastically. I was sad it never really caught on.

Is MW: Dark Age pretty much ignored by most of your guys? I had lost interest in the verse when they were moving towards the timeskip... about the time Sun-tzu crushed St. Ives is when I stopped caring.

[Erloas]

Is MW: Dark Age pretty much ignored by most of your guys? I had lost interest in the verse when they were moving towards the timeskip... about the time Sun-tzu crushed St. Ives is when I stopped caring.

It is my understanding that Dark Age was never really part of Classic Battletech. Which is kind of why Classic Battletech was "Classic" Battletech. I think it was the direction Wizkids tried to take the game after they made their Clix version of the game. It was sort of its own off-shoot of the Battletech universe and wasn't really part of the traditional Battletech, which is why they started calling the original Classic. Of course they recently dropped the classic part. A quick wikipedia search on MW Dark Age hints at the same.

[Philistine]

Actually, if he picks a standard King Crab you can rock his world pretty easily with your first wave. Think Archer. Think Catapult. Trebuchet. Longbow. Bombardier. The stock KGC has very little long-range firepower, and it's slow enough to make closing the range on an uncooperative target difficult. Instead of close terrain, you want a wide-open area with long sightlines. Set up on a canyon map, with a Catapult lance on the high ground... (Obviously this doesn't apply if he goes for the "modernized" KGC with the Gauss Rifles; then hiding in terrain and mugging him at point-blank range probably is your best bet. Lostech makes the KGC a whole lot nastier.)

And in practice, I've generally found that 1-2 tons of AC/20 ammo per gun really is plenty, given the short ranges at which they're effective. Sure you can shoot out to 9 hexes, but unless you're a god of gunnery, or the target is stationary (or better yet, shut down), your odds of actually hitting anything fall off dramatically as your target moves out to each successive range bracket. And given that the AC/20 generates almost as much heat as a large laser, it wouldn't be the ideal choice for spamming low-percentage shots even if it weren't limited by ammunition. You have to strike a balance, because carrying too much ammunition is wasteful, inefficient, and dangerous.

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Philistine quit being evil.

How about a good degree of weight of marginal mechs. I.E. the Quickdraw, Exterminater, Hopilite(yea I can't spell), Banshee (Any other than the S Models) Ostanything.

And Blackseven I loved the cartoon as well. And the TCG, both where pretty awful. Heck besides the unpseakable(Dark Age, ughh even typing it makes me feel dirty) I have enjoyed every incarnation of Battletech.

One of the things that i find funny is that people in gaming 'clans' Have no idea why they are called clans.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, if he picks a standard King Crab you can rock his world pretty easily with your first wave. Think Archer. Think Catapult. Trebuchet. Longbow. Bombardier. The stock KGC has very little long-range firepower, and it's slow enough to make closing the range on an uncooperative target difficult. Instead of close terrain, you want a wide-open area with long sightlines. Set up on a canyon map, with a Catapult lance on the high ground... (Obviously this doesn't apply if he goes for the "modernized" KGC with the Gauss Rifles; then hiding in terrain and mugging him at point-blank range probably is your best bet. Lostech makes the KGC a whole lot nastier.)

And in practice, I've generally found that 1-2 tons of AC/20 ammo per gun really is plenty, given the short ranges at which they're effective. Sure you can shoot out to 9 hexes, but unless you're a god of gunnery, or the target is stationary (or better yet, shut down), your odds of actually hitting anything fall off dramatically as your target moves out to each successive range bracket. And given that the AC/20 generates almost as much heat as a large laser, it wouldn't be the ideal choice for spamming low-percentage shots even if it weren't limited by ammunition. You have to strike a balance, because carrying too much ammunition is wasteful, inefficient, and dangerous.

Yea, the 3025 King Crab sports a single large laser as his only weapon which has ANY chance of hitting past 9 hexes, and anything that can hit *reliabally* outside of 6 hexes. Also, the King Crab has problems with trying to close, since it is a 3/5/0. To counter this, keep your distance with something like a Trebuchet. It's faster, but more importantly, it's got jump jets, which gives it much more maneuverability. An Archer, quite bluntly, has one chance to beat a King Crab: Kill it before it closes. A Trebuchet has a good chance of being able to set up sweet shots while it bounces around.

Heck, I took out a King Crab with a Hussar once, just by running around behind it and popping it with my laser, then running off like heck. Since I was moving so fast, it was bloody impossible to hit me with the AC/20's, and nearly so with the laser.

Also, worst mech ever: Urbanmech. Try doing anything useful with the R2D2 clone...

[Inhuman Bot]

I've finally gotten around to playing mechwarrior for the first time in ages, and am suddenly very happy to hear this. :smallbiggrin:

[Comet]

MechWarrior? With shiny graphics?
Oh me. Oh my.
This is going to be fun.

[Erloas]

Well he picked the King Crab KGC-000, the Whitworth WTH-2, and the Spider SDR-8M.
So not highly optimized 'Mechs, nothing too fancy for sure. As for what he had to choose from, it was the 'Mechs that came with the starter box as well as a hand full of other 'Mechs I had put together, King Crab, Warhammer, Timber Wolf, Marauder, Rifleman, and Pouncer. He choose to go IS rather then Clan so that removed two of those and changed some of the available builds. I have some other models too, but I didn't have the sheets made up for them, and rather then using one of the programs to look through everything he just picked from what I had printed. Which was all those 'Mechs in tech level 2-3 and IS, and then every other one, because the list was 212 pages already so I just told it to print every odd page to get a wide range of 'Mechs while not having to print too many*.

*I printed them at work last weekend when I was called in. For whatever reason PDFs take forever to print here, so printing those 106 sheets still took about 80 minutes or so. Which is also why I didn't print the clan 'Mechs and didn't print all the versions of the IS ones.


The point of the gauntlet was to play something other then a basic game. I'm not looking to just beat him down and I'm not looking to let him win. I am trying to force him to play a bit more conservatively though. Right now he is a bit to simplistically aggressive, and as such I tend to beat him a lot with even forces. I was trying to build a scenario where being more conservative is an obvious advantage, and giving him a good opportunity to get some good kills in even if he doesn't make it all the way.

I'm thinking maybe 3 waves, first 2 lights, then 2 mediums, then 1 heavy, and last 1 assault. But I'm not sure on that. The lights will probably be one of the harder things because they are going to be hard to hit, where as the assault has a better chance of tearing him up early, the lights have a better chance of simply making the fight annoying, which isn't what I want.

[Mo_the_Hawked]

The WTH-2A Is one of my favorites. 4 Streak 4s and couple of meduim lasers, with a standard engine, yes please!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One of the things a lot of people forget about XL Engines is that if you loose a shoulder, your mech shuts down (if IS), or gains another 10 heat per round and will shut down if an XL engine slot gets popped on the other side (if Clan), making the mech a lot more fragile.

For a mech which will take a beating and keep on going, even with all the tonnage it will free up, a standard engine is a very, very beautiful thing.

[Philistine]

Philistine quit being evil.
Evil? Me? Well, okay. Yes. Sometimes. (I know I should give it up, but it's just so much FUN!)

I'm not sure what part of my above post would have drawn such a reaction, though. The KGC-000 does have a huge, obvious design flaw which is easily exploited evenespecially by much smaller 'Mechs; is it evil to point that out?

But while I'm thinking about it - I'm pretty sure the 3025 King Crab has an LRM-15 with one ton of reloads in addition to the large laser. So it's slightly better off than the 3025 Atlas, but only slightly.


How about a good degree of weight of marginal mechs. I.E. the Quickdraw, Exterminater, Hopilite(yea I can't spell), Banshee (Any other than the S Models) Ostanything.
Well, he certainly shouldn't bring in Clan tech against the team his brother chose. Egad. :smallamused:

[Deliverance]

Nice.

I first encountered BattleTech back in the late eighties in the CRPG "The Crescent Hawk's Inception" and have been a semi-fan ever since. While I didn't like the MechWarrior series of games all that much as I am more of a strategy games fan (and feel that twitchy gameplay is most inappropriate to handling giant robots), they did have style.

Now, if only somebody would take up the Mech Commander idea again. Proper Mech combat shouldn't be 1v1, it should be group vs group.... and it should have modern up to date controls as well as missions every bit as hard as those faced in Mech Commander 1. The biggest mistake in Mech Commander 2 was eschewing strategic challenges in favour of turning the game into a turkey shoot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nice.

I first encountered BattleTech back in the late eighties in the CRPG "The Crescent Hawk's Inception" and have been a semi-fan ever since. While I didn't like the MechWarrior series of games all that much as I am more of a strategy games fan (and feel that twitchy gameplay is most inappropriate to handling giant robots), they did have style.

Now, if only somebody would take up the Mech Commander idea again. Proper Mech combat shouldn't be 1v1, it should be group vs group.... and it should have modern up to date controls as well as missions every bit as hard as those faced in Mech Commander 1. The biggest mistake in Mech Commander 2 was eschewing strategic challenges in favour of turning the game into a turkey shoot.

I agree. In any IS vs Clan fight, the IS's primary advantage is numbers and C3 to maximize numerical advantage. Even in 3025, you almost *never* had single mechs running around, unless you were stripped and running your scouts in singletons on overlapping patrols rather than sending them out with wingmates on a more restrictive patroling path.

[Erloas]

Well the MW reboot is aiming for a lance to be the default design for the game. From single player with AI lancemates to co-op campaign with 3 other friends to the versus multiplayer.

They want to make each weight class viable, so you can get really good at a class of 'Mech and not just move up to the biggest 'Mechs. In doing so they seem to be planning on making information a much more important aspect of the game, because that is the sort of thing light 'Mechs excel at.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well the MW reboot is aiming for a lance to be the default design for the game. From single player with AI lancemates to co-op campaign with 3 other friends to the versus multiplayer.

They want to make each weight class viable, so you can get really good at a class of 'Mech and not just move up to the biggest 'Mechs. In doing so they seem to be planning on making information a much more important aspect of the game, because that is the sort of thing light 'Mechs excel at.

Light 'Mechs, traditionally, were the workhorses of any force, because it was what they had the most of. Less than 5% of all mechs were assault, I believe, with fewer than 10% being Heavy. Light mechs, on the other hand, generally were somewhere between 50% and 65% of their force.

This was also economics. It costs MUCH less to produce two 30 ton mechs, than to produce one 60 ton mech. It is also a lot faster, by an order of magnitude. So you get LOTS of little mechs, with the occasional Medium mechs, and if you see a Heavy or an Assault, run like hell and tell someone!

[Philistine]

Light 'Mechs, traditionally, were the workhorses of any force, because it was what they had the most of. Less than 5% of all mechs were assault, I believe, with fewer than 10% being Heavy. Light mechs, on the other hand, generally were somewhere between 50% and 65% of their force.

This was also economics. It costs MUCH less to produce two 30 ton mechs, than to produce one 60 ton mech. It is also a lot faster, by an order of magnitude. So you get LOTS of little mechs, with the occasional Medium mechs, and if you see a Heavy or an Assault, run like hell and tell someone!

Ah... Not only does that contradict the setting fluff (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleMech#Classifications), but per the 3025 Random Unit Tables, even Periphery States and Bandit Kingdoms can regularly field forces including 15-20% Assault-class 'Mechs*; most of the Great Houses skew even heavier. Lights and Mediums combined make up 45-60% of all 'Mechs in service in 3025, with the number of Mediums at worst equal to the number of Lights (but often significantly greater).


* The Taurian Concordat and the Capellan Confederation are the only exceptions: TC forces run to 24% Light, 39% Medium, 30% Heavy, and 7% Assault 'Mechs, while the CC field roughly 25% Light, 34% Medium, 24% Heavy, and 12% Assault 'Mechs (including the "Special" table with WD 'Mechs). The other major players in the Inner Sphere all field at least 15% Assaults.

[Erloas]

Light 'Mechs, traditionally, were the workhorses of any force, because it was what they had the most of. Less than 5% of all mechs were assault, I believe, with fewer than 10% being Heavy. Light mechs, on the other hand, generally were somewhere between 50% and 65% of their force.

This was also economics. It costs MUCH less to produce two 30 ton mechs, than to produce one 60 ton mech. It is also a lot faster, by an order of magnitude. So you get LOTS of little mechs, with the occasional Medium mechs, and if you see a Heavy or an Assault, run like hell and tell someone!

Well Total Warfare says that Mediums are the workhorses of the IS. Lights being mostly for reconnaissence. Although I think it depends on the era, the heavies take a much more prominent role on the field in the later eras because the mediums just can't stand up to them for the most part. Mostly a case of an arms race.
Most of the fluff I've read (which isn't a huge amount at this point) generally has the lance commander in a heavy with 2 mediums for support and a light for recon. At least for your standard lances, they do have specific recon lances and specific heavy lances and the make-up of those are different.

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Although it would seem after the clan invasion heavies became the new meduims. Given the large amount built and designed. 20 tonners are becoming rarer, except for reseens.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Although it would seem after the clan invasion heavies became the new meduims. Given the large amount built and designed. 20 tonners are becoming rarer, except for reseens.

Mostly because heavies and assaults are about the only things ABLE to stand up to a Clan mech of any reasonable size. Heck, Clan Light mechs can generally take down a Medium, and there are Clan Medium mechs which can take on Heavies if done right, or even weaker assaults (Charger, I'm lookin' at YOU).

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Not the Charger 1A5, 4/6, AC20, 2SRM6s and Quartet of Medium lasers. Nor the 1A9, 5/8/5, 4 Meduim Pulse and a LRM20.

I kinda have a soft spot for the poor maligned Charger, and the Banshee for that matter.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not the Charger 1A5, 4/6, AC20, 2SRM6s and Quartet of Medium lasers. Nor the 1A9, 5/8/5, 4 Meduim Pulse and a LRM20.

I kinda have a soft spot for the poor maligned Charger, and the Banshee for that matter.

The Charger 1A5 would be eaten alive by almost any Medium Clan Mech with (Clan) Large Pulse Lasers or Clan PPC because he would never be able to close. For that matter, Clan Medium Pulse Lasers + Targeting Computer and the Charger would go down because he couldn't range effectively and the smaller mech almost cannot miss.

The 1A9 would be nastier due to the long-range punch of the LRM/20, and a clan Medium mech would probably disengage and call in a Madcat to deal with it.

[Philistine]

The 1A9 would be nastier due to the long-range punch of the LRM/20, and a clan Medium mech would probably disengage and call in a Madcat to deal with it.

Maybe, maybe not. The Stormcrow, for example, is faster than the Charger (though without jump capability), and carries more armor, and most configurations outgun the Charger at all ranges besides. Granted that's toward the heavy end of the medium classification, but still - the Charger's only advantages over the Stormcrow are jump capability and melee damage, and that's not much of a foundation to build on. Heck, there are Light Clan 'Mechs I'd pick over the Charger in a 1v1; the Charger just isn't an efficient design.

[Erloas]

I'm sure you guys know... but don't seem to acknowledge the fact that 'Mechs are not balanced simply by weight class, they never really have been as far as I know. Some designs, especially Clan designs, especially with the newer technology are inherently better then IS designs. This was never a question. Its why the Charger, even at 80T, is worth between 800-1500 BV and something like the Stormcrow at 55T starts off at 1800 BV and goes up to about 2400BV.

They were never designed to go one on one. The fact is that any fight that is even supposed to be remotely fair is going to have another 'Mech running with the Charger to balance out with the Stormcrow.

And if you want to look at cost for a faction to build (ie fluff) the charger is about 7-8 million where as the Stormcrow is about 15-16 million.

Complaining about them not being balanced is basically ignoring the fact that the designers never said they were supposed to be balanced and in fact specifically state that they are not.

[Winterwind]

Speaking of which... a friend of mine and I have had a couple of 10,000 BV1 matches via MegaMek, and I seem to have a really hard time beating him.

My list was
Timber Wolf Prime (2/3)
Stormcrow Prime (3/4)
Stormcrow B (3/4)
Ice Ferret D (3/3)
Mad Dog Prime (4/4)
and he had seven tech level 2 IS heavy and assault 'mechs, as well as some big artillery tank with multiple Arrow IV launchers - he had a fair bit more than twice as much tonnage as I did total.

Now, the games were pretty close, so I probably shouldn't complain, but the thing that frustrates me is that, by my impression, I outmanoeuvered him a fair bit in each of these games - I managed to seperate his forces, tricking him into drawing considerable amounts of 'mechs to one end of the map and then using my superior mobility to concentrate my entire star quickly on the other end, rendering half of his army useless while I fought the other, I predicted where he would shoot his artillery well enough to avoid its impacts most of the time, while he made a couple of strategical errors (like using incendiary Arrow IV ammo to create smoke in areas where it was definitely more benefitial for me than for him). And still, I lost.

So I've been wondering... is my star composition flawed? Is there any tactical advice you might give me? Or does BV1 just generally grant IS an advantage over Clans?
(one thing I have to admit - while I was trying to have different roles covered, I pretty much simply picked the 'Mechs I like the most and tried to adhere to fluff with regards to the 'Mech number, selection, weight and pilot skill, while he spent hours going through the entire MegaMek database of 'Mechs, picking only the most effective ones, with no regard to their origin or anything else - that it ended up being two lances was pure coincidence, and I don't think there was even one 'Mech in there below Heavy classification. Maybe that was the reason for my losses...)

[Swordguy]

Post his exact list and the gunnery/piloting scores. If his G/P are equal to yours, and he's running Level 2 equipment, he's illegal - no question. His heavies/assaults need to be 4/5s or worse, really. Taking artillery in a friendly game is also generally frowned on, and the canon artillery tanks are pretty damned expensive.

What it sounds like is that you're running a fluff list against a power list. That's usually a recipie for a loss without good luck, even if the BV scores do all check out.


That said...are you using zell? If you are, then it's STRONGLY recommended by the designers that you receive a 'free' +1/+1 to your scores at no further BV cost (which brings your BV down quite a bit). It's not in the "tournament" ruleset because they can't control the scene that closely, and because people will deliberately take the bonus and then ignore zell. Further, HMP has you at 9,361 BV before piloting mods, so double-check your own math; with all 3/4s and a 2/3 you're actually in the 11,900 region.

[Winterwind]

Post his exact list and the gunnery/piloting scores. I will, as soon as I get it.


If his G/P are equal to yours, and he's running Level 2 equipment, he's illegal - no question. His heavies/assaults need to be 4/5s or worse, really.They were lower than mine. In fact, I think he took a few instances of really weird stats like 4/7 or so in order to be able to squeeze the most into his list. I think there was maybe one or two better pilots there, the rest were 4/5 or worse.


Taking artillery in a friendly game is also generally frowned on, and the canon artillery tanks are pretty damned expensive.Oh? Why, what's the problem with artillery?


What it sounds like is that you're running a fluff list against a power list. That's usually a recipie for a loss without good luck, even if the BV scores do all check out.Hrm. Was afraid of that.


That said...are you using zell? If you are, then it's STRONGLY recommended by the designers that you receive a 'free' +1/+1 to your scores at no further BV cost (which brings your BV down quite a bit). It's not in the "tournament" ruleset because they can't control the scene that closely, and because people will deliberately take the bonus and then ignore zell.No, no zell. I offered him to use it, but he declined, on the reasoning that if the BVs check out, I'd be at a disadvantage then.


Further, HMP has you at 9,361 BV before piloting mods, so double-check your own math; with all 3/4s and a 2/3 you're actually in the 11,900 region.Oh... maybe we were playing with 12,000 BV, then. It's been a while since these games.

[Erloas]

Well I put those 'Mechs in with those pilots and it came up to BV 16272, of course that was with BV2 as well. Of course with BV2 they also have a force multiplication table, so the person with fewer 'Mechs get a bonus to BV, because in most cases 2 1000BV 'Mechs will actually fair better in most situations then 1 2000BG 'Mech. I forget the conversion now and I'm not able to quickly find it right now.

I'm also wondering why you choose to use BV1 instead of BV2. BV2 has been out quite a while now and while not perfect it does fix a lot of issues with the previous version.

As for Pilots like 3/7, they are just cheesey. They are someone trying to work the system, pure and simple. Because you will be taking advantage of that 3 a lot more then you will be penalized by that 7. Since you shoot many times a round, and generally by the time you are taking too many PSRs you are already almost done for. I know the guy that runs games down in Phoenix where I started (I know he gets some of the playtesting material before its released) doesn't let anyone take pilots with the gunnery/pilot more then 1-2 points off from eachother.

[Winterwind]

Well I put those 'Mechs in with those pilots and it came up to BV 16272, of course that was with BV2 as well. Of course with BV2 they also have a force multiplication table, so the person with fewer 'Mechs get a bonus to BV, because in most cases 2 1000BV 'Mechs will actually fair better in most situations then 1 2000BG 'Mech. I forget the conversion now and I'm not able to quickly find it right now.I think BV2 results in quite different values than BV1 - I just checked in the new version of MegaMek (after the old one wouldn't start), which seems to be using BV2, and the BV of a Timber Wolf Prime is given as 2737, while formerly it used to be 2252.


I'm also wondering why you choose to use BV1 instead of BV2. BV2 has been out quite a while now and while not perfect it does fix a lot of issues with the previous version.Firstly, neither of us had (or has) any rule book that features BV2, secondly, BV1 was what MegaMek supported at the time. :smallwink:


As for Pilots like 3/7, they are just cheesey. They are someone trying to work the system, pure and simple. Because you will be taking advantage of that 3 a lot more then you will be penalized by that 7. Since you shoot many times a round, and generally by the time you are taking too many PSRs you are already almost done for. I know the guy that runs games down in Phoenix where I started (I know he gets some of the playtesting material before its released) doesn't let anyone take pilots with the gunnery/pilot more then 1-2 points off from eachother.Well, in some other game, where he wanted to try out infantry, he used some unarmed VTOL transports - and gave them 7/0 pilots...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To be honest, he horridly misused his artillery. He should have had a TAG-equipped mech able to call in shots on you as an on-board action which are effectively LRM/20 hits in which all twenty shots hit you (because it does 20 damage in groups of 5 damage). Three or four of them TAGged in from a single mech, and you've got massively unbalanced damage output for the BV rating.

[Frogwarrior]

:smalleek:
People who actually know how to play BattleTech???

Man, I so want to learn some time!

Also, did anyone get MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries (the music was SO lame compared to Vengeance :smallfrown:) and install the MekTek expansions? I gotta say, it takes a lot of dedication to make an expansion mod that adds about three times as many 'Mechs as came with the game, and a sizable array of new weapons to boot.

[Winterwind]

To be honest, he horridly misused his artillery. He should have had a TAG-equipped mech able to call in shots on you as an on-board action which are effectively LRM/20 hits in which all twenty shots hit you (because it does 20 damage in groups of 5 damage). Three or four of them TAGged in from a single mech, and you've got massively unbalanced damage output for the BV rating.Yeah; I think he figured the additional BV costs for having TAG and Arrow IV launchers would be too much, almost certainly a bad call considering the damage output of those things.
The biggest benefit he had from those things was that I couldn't remain too long in woods and other strategically worthwhile locations, though I think I managed to offset that mostly by predicting where he might be firing at any given time and taking advantage of my mobility and range.


:smalleek:
People who actually know how to play BattleTech???

Man, I so want to learn some time!It's very, very worth it, if you ask me. :smallsmile:

[jmbrown]

I'd figure this be the best place to pimp it but I'm trying to gather a Classic BattleTech RPG (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119594) game going. It'll combine aspects of the RPG with the war game.

[Erloas]

Are there any BT design programs for the various non 'Mech units in the game other then the Heavy Metal versions? Mostly looking for tanks/vehicles right now, but I also have some VTOLs and infantry I don't have any specs for (although I think the infantry would be easy enough to do by hand with the Tech Manual, which I have). Aerospace and protomechs might be nice to have too, but I don't currently have any models of them (almost no place carries protomechs)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Are there any BT design programs for the various non 'Mech units in the game other then the Heavy Metal versions? Mostly looking for tanks/vehicles right now, but I also have some VTOLs and infantry I don't have any specs for (although I think the infantry would be easy enough to do by hand with the Tech Manual, which I have). Aerospace and protomechs might be nice to have too, but I don't currently have any models of them (almost no place carries protomechs)

You are looking for Vehicle Factory 3 (http://www.pryderockindustries.com/dl_vehicle.php) (scroll down to the bottom of linked page to find it). I don't think it has rules for protomechs, but it's got all vehicles, hovercraft, vtols, and aerospace.

[mangosta71]

Protomechs only appeared in one, maybe two, of the Twilight of the Clans books. To my knowledge, they were a Smoke Jaguar experiment and never caught on anywhere else. Of course, I also stopped reading about the time that little series was finished. There was a Technical Readout that contained the ones that had been designed, along with the rules for designing your own, though. I forget exactly which, but it was in the 3060s.

I know that there are rules elsewhere for designing vehicles and ships, because I've also done both of those and never had this Vehicle Factory thing. Using 'Mech weaponry instead of the "naval" guns allowed me to design something of frigate size that was capable of annihilating one of the core heavy battleships in a salvo. As for my heavy battleships...

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that the Aerotech box set includes rules for designing fighters, as well as a full suite of combat rules and a number of core designs for you to use. :smallwink:

[Trodon]

MechWarrior 5 Looks amazing!

[Erloas]

I liked the concept of protomechs, though I haven't read anything with them yet. There were only about 5-6 models, I happened to like some of the models a lot though, just wanted to find a reason to get them and use them.

I have the Tech Manual for making everything, its just a lot to go through to fine tune a build to get the most use out of your tonnage and crit slots. The programs just make it so much easier. Also the programs usually have the book designs, and right now I like using the book designs for the character they give to units. I like the fact that everything isn't as powerful and well designed as it could be.

Since things like infantry don't have too many options they should be pretty easy to build from scratch, they also don't have a huge amount to optimize. Vehicles I know are simpler than 'Mechs, but I don't know how long it would take to design one by hand.

I've got the new 3050 book in the mail (the place I was ordering from was out of the 3025 book) but I'm not sure if it has anything but 'Mechs in it.

[mangosta71]

I don't know how much simpler vehicles are to design than Mechs. They have a number of different factors to consider, but it's not really easier. Things like no maximum amount of armor, ballistic and missile weapons not generating heat, and each item you add only taking one item slot (so those huge artillery pieces can be mounted) might make it seem to be, but the biggest difference is in the engines. Vehicle engines are quite a bit more complicated.

But even without a limit to the armor, there's not a lot of point putting a whole lot on most of them. A VTOL will go down in flames the first time its rotor takes a hit - all loading it up with armor does is give the pilot a chance to survive the crash. Other types of vehicles have similar vulnerabilities - it's the main reason Mechs took over battlefields. Doesn't take much luck to knock a wheel/tread off, or freeze the turret in place, and then it's just a sitting duck.

[Philistine]

It's been a while and I'm kind of fuzzy now, but... weren't Protomechs found to be ridiculously OP in actual play? I don't recall what the actual issue was, if there was one, all I've retained is a general impression of disdain for the little buggers.


EDIT: Maybe the problem was difficulty in hitting them? Like I said, it's been a while.

[Erloas]

Well I'm trying to use Vehicle Factory 3 and it requires the VB5 base to be installed first. However, for whatever reason, my computer doesn't like something about the zip. It will open/copy every file except setup1.ex_ whenever I try to copy that file it gives me an unexpected error. I even tried redownloading the file but it didn't help. I'm wondering if maybe the zip got corrupted or something.

[mangosta71]

It's been a while and I'm kind of fuzzy now, but... weren't Protomechs found to be ridiculously OP in actual play? I don't recall what the actual issue was, if there was one, all I've retained is a general impression of disdain for the little buggers.


EDIT: Maybe the problem was difficulty in hitting them? Like I said, it's been a while.

One of the major issues was that two of the hit locations on the table were misses.

From a RP standpoint, an issue for the Clans (but they're the ones who built them after all) was the line between Elementals and MechWarriors - similar to the line between MechWarriors and aerospace pilots that kept them from using LAMs.

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Also I can't stand clan pulse lasers, I really like IS pulse lasers. The Large most of all. It makes sense, sense that the Clan large doesn't. I has a longer range than the IS Extended Large.

[Matthew]

Really enjoyed playing the Somerset Strikers campaign using Mega Mek. The computer AI is not aware that clan forces in the series only engage in one on one combat, though, which made the Dustball scenario quite the challenge! I assume these are conversions derived from the 1st Somerset Strikers source book FASA put out; can anybody confirm or deny?

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Yea, it does, I have the book and they are in there exactly.

[Matthew]

Yea, it does, I have the book and they are in there exactly.

Good to know! Thanks!

Played a good game tonight against a mate online; randomly generated force list was:

Trebuchet TBT-5NR-UK
Archer ARC-7S
Thunderbolt TDR-9S
Lao Hu LHU-3B

versus

Warlord BLR-2D
Von Rohis VON 4RH-5
Lightning LGN-1A-UK
Men Shen MS1-OC

The Warlord and Thunderbolt went toe to toe in the opening turns, supported by their fellows, whilst the Lao Hu held off the Von Rohis. A lucky hit took out one of the warlord's legs and it went sprawling, resulting in a pilot black out. The Thunderbolt was under heavy fire from several directions and went down a couple of turns later. Meanwhile the Men Shen was using some sort of system to prevent missile locks, and forcing the Trebuchet towards the hillside from which the Archer and Lao Hu were firing. The pilot of the Warlord woke up and managed to turn his mech far enough to lend supporting fire. The Trebuchet went down in the same turn as the Men Shen took a fatal hit (engine explosion I think). It wasn't destroyed, but well out of the fight, didn't seem to be sinking any heat and eventually shut down.

It was looking pretty bad for the Lao Hu and Archer, especially when the Von Rohis came up over the hillside behind them, but the fates are unpredictable. No sooner had the Rohis come into firing position than did the combined fire of the Archer and Lao Hu score a lucky critical on his ammunition and down he went in flames. Pilot managed to eject, though, as did the Trebuchet pilot. The Lao Hu closed on the prone Warlord and the Archer scored another lucky long range hit on the Lightning that brought that speedy mech down as well. At that point the enemy forces capitulated, it would have only been a matter of time.

Great fun!

[Erloas]

Must have had some non-standard 'Mechs. I don't see the lightning listed anywhere, except as an aerospace fighter and a light vehicle. I don't see that version of the Men Shen either. I saw one version with an ECM suit, but that wouldn't effect missiles unless they were using Artimis, and I didn't see anyone equiped with them. I think the thunderbolt had an anti-missile system, but that was it.

There must have been a lot of luck to take the leg out of a warlord very quickly.

I really like the model of the Men Shen, but I can't find it anywhere. Well I can find it at the manufacturer site, but no where else.



My brother and I started the gauntlet match last weekend. He almost lost the Spider, its as good as dead, its just not there yet. Standing on 1 leg with no armor left on any front torso section and only 2 points internal left in the center. I probably could have focused on both the smaller ones and taken them out but I didn't want to do that to him yet. Although I probably almost could have taken the both out really early if I hadn't missed lots and lots of 7/8+ shots.
I had choose to send in the 2 medium 'Mechs first, the Blackjack BJ2-O A, and Lightray LGH-6W.
Next week its the lights, Firefly FFL-4B, and Locust LCT-5M. I would have actually done the lights first but I wanted to use the Locust and I was still gluing him together at the time.
The last (assuming we get that far) is the Rifleman RFL-8D.

I could probably take him out with the lights if I wanted to, but I don't know if it would be any fun for him to watch me run circles around him for 30 turns while I plink the King Crab away.

[Matthew]

Here is the information on the Men Shen:



Men Shen MS1-OC
55 tons IS TW non-box set

Movement: 6/9(12)
Engine: 330 XL
Heat Sinks: 11 [22]

Internal: 91 (Endo Steel)
Armor: 176/185
HD: 3 9
CT: 18 26 ( 7)
RT: 13 20 ( 6)
LT: 13 20 ( 6)
RA: 9 17
LA: 9 17
RL: 13 24
LL: 13 24

Large Pulse Laser [LA] 10 Heat
Large Pulse Laser [RA] 10 Heat
ER Small Laser [HD] 2 Heat

MASC [LT]
Guardian ECM Suite [RT]
Beagle Active Probe [CT]

Carrying Capacity:
One battle armor squad


BV: 1,435 Cost: 16,613,578 Cbills

and the Lightning, which looks as though it might be a computer error of some sort:



Lightning LGN-1A-UK
25 tons IS TW non-box set

Movement: 10/15(20)
Engine: 250 XL
Heat Sinks: 10 [20]

Internal: 43 (Endo Steel)
Armor: 89/89 (Ferro-Fibrous)
HD: 3 9
CT: 8 12 ( 4)
RT: 6 10 ( 2)
LT: 6 10 ( 2)
RA: 4 8
LA: 4 8
RL: 6 12
LL: 6 12

Medium Laser [LT] 3 Heat
Medium Laser [RT] 3 Heat
Medium Laser [CT] 3 Heat
Medium Laser [CT] 3 Heat
Medium Laser [HD] 3 Heat

MASC [LT]

BV: 1,166 Cost: 4,494,583 Cbills

Unless its like a Robotech fighter thing. :smallbiggrin:

[Erloas]

Whats wrong with the lightning? I built it with those specs and it works out fine.

Ah, I found the Men Shen. Just the C version, with the way it writes the omnimech designation it drops of the model part, looked like it was an MS1-OC rather then omni version C. Some 'Mechs have normal versions and Omni version and when they write the omni version they leave off the model suffix.

[Matthew]

What is wrong with the lightning? I built it with those specs and it works out fine.

It uses the same symbol as for the lightning aerospace fighter version; nothing wrong with the actual statistics.

[mangosta71]

Well, unless someone built a factory capable of constructing LAMs, there aren't any more of those. And never will be again. The last one with that capability was in the Ghost Bear invasion corridor, and they retooled it. So I'm betting that the Lightning isn't a LAM (ie "Robotech thing"). Actually, I know it isn't, because it doesn't have jump jets.

[Swordguy]

The Lightning (Mech) is a MechForce UK unit. It's not part of the canon universe. MFUK was a fan group headed by Bob Nichols that had their own fanzine, in which they "expanded" the BattleTech universe to their specifications. They published several mech designs that were later cast into minis by Ral Partha Europe (Gauntlet, Tree Frog, Lightning, etc).

Bob died about the turn of the century, and MFUK folded after his passing.

[Winterwind]

Weren't those the same people who came up with such ridiculous stuff as Rotary/20 ACs (:smalleek:)? Or was that the German MechForce equivalent?

[mangosta71]

The Lightning (Mech) is a MechForce UK unit. It's not part of the canon universe.

I thought it looked a bit too-optimized...

[Matthew]

The Lightning (Mech) is a MechForce UK unit. It's not part of the canon universe. MFUK was a fan group headed by Bob Nichols that had their own fanzine, in which they "expanded" the BattleTech universe to their specifications. They published several mech designs that were later cast into minis by Ral Partha Europe (Gauntlet, Tree Frog, Lightning, etc).

Bob died about the turn of the century, and MFUK folded after his passing.
Aha, that explains it! I think next time I will limit the random selection to 3025 designs.



I thought it looked a bit too-optimized...

All the better that such a mech should be defeated! :smallbiggrin:

[Storm Bringer]

Right, time to ask a question to you guys about getting into this game.

what would you recommend for a new player to buy, books wise? I mean, what do feel are on the 'need' list, and what's on the 'nice' list?

[Erloas]

Right, time to ask a question to you guys about getting into this game.

what would you recommend for a new player to buy, books wise? I mean, what do feel are on the 'need' list, and what's on the 'nice' list?

Well, it depends if you are just getting started or not.
If you are just getting started the "Classic Battletech Introductory Box Set" is a good place to start. It has all the basic rules, 24 plastic models, a set of record sheets for those 'Mechs, several small books about fluff and 2 map sheets. The box can be found at Amazon.com and probably a lot of other places.

However, all of the quick start rules and the record sheets and some of the fluff can be found at their website http://classicbattletech.com/index.php for free.
The plastic models are ok, some are better then others, but they aren't as good as the normal metal models you can buy, however they are a lot cheaper.

If you already know the game some and are just looking for some more, then Total Warfare is the book to get, it has all of the tournement level rules, all the more advanced weapons, and all of the different unit types. However it is a big book with a lot of information and if you start there without knowing the basics of the game it will make things seem a lot more complicated then they are. There is a decent amount of fluff mixed in too.

From there you can get all the record sheets you could need by downloading a 'Mech building program and using that to print them. Heavy Metal Pro is the offical program, but they charge for it. Solaris Skunk Werks (http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/downloads) is a free programs to do the same thing.

Of course you can use the programs to get datasheets without having the Total Warfare book, but if you do pretty much every 'Mech newer then 3025 is going to have weapons that you don't have the rules for in the starter set rules.

As for other books, the Tech Manual has all of the rules for building all your own custom units, which is nice but fairly complicated to do by hand, especially compared to being able to do it with one of the programs. However, I haven't found a good free program to build anything but 'Mechs, so if you wanted to do infantry, vehicles, water units or aerospace then you kind of need the Tech Manual for that. Heavy Metal has some other modules for building those types of units, you just have to pay for them. There is a fair amount of fluff on the design and use of the weapons and various equipement in the book too, nothing necessary to play, but would be if you really get into the story side of things.

Tactical Operations has a lot of advanced rules, its not necessary, but I couldn't say too much about it yet because my copy showed up on Friday and I haven't got a chance to look through it much yet.

All of the rest of the books are fluff and scenario information. There might be a few unique weapons or 'Mech builds in some of them, but not a lot. Scenarios are nice for running campaigns and for doing more varied game types if you don't want to design your own scenarios. However thats probably not something you are going to do just starting out.

The Technical Readout books have fluff and specs on all the different 'Mechs and vehicles of whatever era they are for (3039, 3050, and 3075 have all been updated, the designs of the other books are still usable, they just don't have the new BV system numbers). They don't have usable record sheets with them, but they give all of the information needed to write the 'Mech/vehicle on a blank record sheet. Which I feel is too much trouble considering how easy it is to do with the aformentioned programs. They are a great source of fluff about the units though.


I would also recommend checking out Camospecs.com and seeing a lot of differnent models that people are making with canon paint schemes. I bought most of the models I have just by visiting random pictures and writing down the names of 'Mechs I really liked the look of. Its a great place to get pictures of most 'Mechs and some vehicles/Vtols/BA/infantry/Aerospace.

I also found buying a good hex matt for playing on made things a lot nicer. Its a lot better then the little maps in the started box. Drawing a hex matt by hand turned out to be a lot more work then I expected and it was really hard to keep from getting off on a sheet of any reasonable size (4 poster boards taped together). Not a first purchase type thing, but after you get Total Warfare and some more 'Mechs I would look into it.

Summary, start with the introductory box until you get familiar with the game. Alternatively download the starter rules and proxy. Then get Total Warfare and start buying some other 'Mechs.

[Matthew]

I need some better strategies. So the key to my success has been concentrating all fire on the biggest baddest mech in sight until it blows up and then moving onto the next one. Anybody have any insights into how best to use a combined arms force?

[Breltar]

Erloas, you might want to check out this company for your hex grids...

http://www.litkoaero.com/page/LAI/CTGY/GGT

Those are their spraypaint stencils for hexes, but they also sell balsa wood huge hexes, with smaller mech sized hexes on them for modular play tables. They also make a ton of plastic counters for a variety of games and also a space corridor system I am thinking about using for a redux of spacehulk.

[Erloas]

As for mats, I got mine from hotzmats.com/ (http://www.hotzmats.com/). It works well and seemed reasonably priced. The hexes weren't 100% perfect, but it was only noticable on very large pieces of terrain and even then it wasn't off by much.


I need some better strategies. So the key to my success has been concentrating all fire on the biggest baddest mech in sight until it blows up and then moving onto the next one. Anybody have any insights into how best to use a combined arms force?

I'm not all that great yet... It really depends what you have to work with and what you are facing. Sometimes its best to go for targets of opportunity. A lot of times it depends on their range vs your range. If they have weapons with a minimum range and you don't then if you can stay close do. If you outrange them then take those long range shots, you might not hit much but they can't hit at all.
Of course thats all fairly obvious.

Depending on what you are facing too, sometimes very light mechs have their uses. If you aren't facing 2-3 gunnery pilots and/or pulse lasers and tracking computers. I did great last weekend with a 20 ton locust of about 600BV because I could easily get a 5 mod and they couldn't hit me. Of course when they did roll those 12s it only took 3 shots to kill it (well 2, but both happened to be PPCs to CT). With a 12/18 movement it was almost impossible to not get behind some 'Mech... if only he had managed to hit he could have taken out a lot. Of course even a 20t 'Mech can kick another 'Mech over if it happens to have a broken leg, gyro, shut down, or unconsious pilot.

Target priority has a lot more to do with what they have then what size it is. Sometimes its best to take out the smallest ones first. They might not carry as much firepower but you can take them out so much faster then a big 'Mech that you reduce their movement options and firepower a lot quicker that way. If they are using a smaller spotter mech for targetting for LRMs and that sort of thing then it should probably be taken out quickly.

Often a big 'Mech is slow so it is easy to get behind and easy to stay outside its effective range and inside yours. However if they have other smaller 'Mechs supporting then they will probably take you out even if the big ones can't if you are ignoring them to focus on the biggest ones.
In my last game it was a 40T Cicada that was by far the most productive and dangerous 'Mech on the table. It didn't have the shear firepower of the Warhammer, but with a 8/12/8 move and an ER PPC it always had a good defensive mod and it had enough firepower to tear through the rear armor of even the biggest 'Mechs, and it had the speed to get there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I need some better strategies. So the key to my success has been concentrating all fire on the biggest baddest mech in sight until it blows up and then moving onto the next one. Anybody have any insights into how best to use a combined arms force?

The Gang-Bang works perfectly well, as long as you keep some things in mind:

1) If your opponent is Clan, it is entirely to your advantage to close as quickly as possible.

2) If you are IS, it is entirely to your advantage to use C3. Seriously. Let your missile mechs hang back at around 20 hexes, let your big boys close, then missile-storm them at effective close range. TAG can be used for targeting LRM Indirect Fire.

3) If you are going to gang-bang, come at them from different angles. With three mechs, you should be able to find his back with at least one of them.

4) Size Matters. If he has a heavy, and all you have are mediums, you're in deep trouble. If he has an assault and you have nothing heavier than a medium, unless it is a Charger or perhaps a Banshee, you need to retreat.

Or, as a friend of mine once said:

* If your opponent is dumb enough to present his back, be smart enough to hit him in it

* Cheesy is not an insult, it is a job description

* If we're alive, and they're dead, it worked

* If the other side puts up their pieces, cursing your name, you did something right

* If you are in a fair fight, you already screwed up

[Armonis]

Ah, the good old days of Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries, using the inane tactics of smashing my cockpit against another mech and then firing everything I had until one of us died.

Brings a tear to my eye.

[Matthew]

Good stuff, thanks folks. We have been experimenting with lighter mechs to outmanoeuvre the assault types. Risky business, but it can pay dividends.

[Pilum]

Just a quick word to say thanks for the discussion about the image rights before; as a long-lapsed player, I often wondered where the good old Warhammer suddenly disappeared to, seeing as it was my 'face' of BattleTech, being on the box after all :smallsmile: The Mad Cat may have become the official 'face' of BT, but even now it's not what immediately comes to my mind when I think of 'mechs. Wish I knew where that box was... (I suspect the bin, sadly)

Personally I have two thoughts over this; firstly, great, a new mech game! Secondly, how much I'm going to cry when they release the minimum spec :smallfrown:

And as we seem to have deviated onto 'fluff', I didn't think the Warhammer pilot was too bad... He just made the typical Assault pilot mistake of assuming he's always the biggest fish in the pond :smallbiggrin:

[Rockphed]

And as we seem to have deviated onto 'fluff', I didn't think the Warhammer pilot was too bad... He just made the typical Assault pilot mistake of assuming he's always the biggest fish in the pond :smallbiggrin:

He hit with his PPC twice. On the other hand, he did get the Atlas down to about 30% before being taken out.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He hit with his PPC twice. On the other hand, he did get the Atlas down to about 30% before being taken out.

Atlases are nasty customers, lethal at every range, and more armor to boot. Best way to beat an Atlas is to retreat and catch him in an ambush.

[mangosta71]

Or call for a strafing run/artillery.

[Philistine]

More true of the 3050 Atlas than the 3025 Atlas. The 3025 Atlas has only a single LRM-20 able to engage targets more than 9 hexes away - not a lovetap by any means, but it's definitely more of a "softening-up" weapon than a real killer. It's perfectly possible to kill an Atlas with a medium 'Mech by using long-range fire and kiting - assuming you have sufficiet space and time to play around in, of course, which in a "real" battle you likely wouldn't.

[Rockphed]

More true of the 3050 Atlas than the 3025 Atlas. The 3025 Atlas has only a single LRM-20 able to engage targets more than 9 hexes away - not a lovetap by any means, but it's definitely more of a "softening-up" weapon than a real killer. It's perfectly possible to kill an Atlas with a medium 'Mech by using long-range fire and kiting - assuming you have sufficiet space and time to play around in, of course, which in a "real" battle you likely wouldn't.

A well used Atlas would probably have flankers to drive enemies into its kill zone, yes? Operating alone is suicide for big, slow critters, as shown by the Heavy Cruiser in Homeworld.

[Philistine]

A well used Atlas would probably have flankers to drive enemies into its kill zone, yes? Operating alone is suicide for big, slow critters, as shown by the Heavy Cruiser in Homeworld.

Both sides would probably have additional help on call. Also, at least one side would probably have other objectives which would limit the amount of time the medium could spend dancing around with the Atlas. The point is, if a Griffin driver (or another Medium with long-range energy weapons and decent mobility) plays to his strengths, there's nothing the Atlas driver can do except hope he gets lucky on the hit locations with an LRM salvo or two. If the LRM ammo runs out before the Griffin is at least crippled, well... tough luck, Atlas.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

More true of the 3050 Atlas than the 3025 Atlas. The 3025 Atlas has only a single LRM-20 able to engage targets more than 9 hexes away - not a lovetap by any means, but it's definitely more of a "softening-up" weapon than a real killer. It's perfectly possible to kill an Atlas with a medium 'Mech by using long-range fire and kiting - assuming you have sufficiet space and time to play around in, of course, which in a "real" battle you likely wouldn't.

An Atlas would not get drawn into such a fight. Even in a relatively flat playing field, he could use his Medium Lasers to start fires to block LoS, forcing the lighter mech to either close or evade.

I think the 3025 version was built more for rough terrain and urban settings, where you pop around the corner and your opponent is six hexes away. The LRM/20 is mostly to cover a potentially vital weakness, and for 'alley shots'. It also is good for softening up targets, due to the 'sandblast' effect.

[Swordguy]

The Atlas is an assault Mech. You do one of two things with it, you either use it to assault a fixed position or fortification, or you defend a fixed position or fortification with it. Note the use of the word "fixed", as in "a specific place, where the enemy HAS to be at some point".

You do not take an Atlas, by choice, into a rolling open field battle. You use it to attack or defend a city, or a factory, or command post, or similar. You drive your Atlas as close as possible to the target and you park it there. You force your opponent to deal with it at short range, because he HAS to engage the Atlas to take the objective. This completely negates the Atlas's relative immobility and short range. If you can park it out of Line of Sight until the enemy gets right on top of it, so much the better (the LRM can fire indirectly). Or you use it in a slow, plodding advance on a fixed position the enemy can't leave. They might be able to open effective fire from long range, but to reliably drop the Atlas they won't be able to shoot at the rest of your assault force at all, and not shooting at the Atlas guarantees an AC/20 and sundry support weapons at uncomfortable ranges at some point.

The Atlas is not a "take all comers" assault Mech like the Marauder II or the Imp. It's designed to assault things, or keep them from being assaulted, not win a field engagement. Use it incorrectly at your peril.

[mangosta71]

An Atlas would not get drawn into such a fight. Even in a relatively flat playing field, he could use his Medium Lasers to start fires to block LoS, forcing the lighter mech to either close or evade.

Except that the medium lasers, again, only have a range of 9 hexes (270 meters). The hypothetical Griffin never has to get that close unless it's immobilized. And even if he did, it's hard enough to start a fire with lasers in a wooded area. In a wide open field, where there's nothing flammable...


The Atlas is an assault Mech. You do one of two things with it, you either use it to assault a fixed position or fortification, or you defend a fixed position or fortification with it. Note the use of the word "fixed", as in "a specific place, where the enemy HAS to be at some point".

You do not take an Atlas, by choice, into a rolling open field battle. You use it to attack or defend a city, or a factory, or command post, or similar. You drive your Atlas as close as possible to the target and you park it there. You force your opponent to deal with it at short range, because he HAS to engage the Atlas to take the objective. This completely negates the Atlas's relative immobility and short range. If you can park it out of Line of Sight until the enemy gets right on top of it, so much the better (the LRM can fire indirectly). Or you use it in a slow, plodding advance on a fixed position the enemy can't leave. They might be able to open effective fire from long range, but to reliably drop the Atlas they won't be able to shoot at the rest of your assault force at all, and not shooting at the Atlas guarantees an AC/20 and sundry support weapons at uncomfortable ranges at some point.

The Atlas is not a "take all comers" assault Mech like the Marauder II or the Imp. It's designed to assault things, or keep them from being assaulted, not win a field engagement. Use it incorrectly at your peril.

The difficulty with using an Atlas defensively is that the attacker has no obligation to close if he can take it out at range. A Warhammer[i] could probably beat it. An [i]Archer certainly could. So the Atlas pilot is left with a dilemma. He can sit there and hope the other guy is stupid enough to close. Or he can run around and hide behind something, leaving the target vulnerable. He can attempt to pursue the enemy (who is faster than he is), again leaving the target vulnerable, and not having any guarantee that he'll be able to get close enough to use his weapons while the lighter Mech whittles him down. Don't forget that a PPC is a lot more likely to get that one lucky shot that kills the pilot than a missile salvo.

The Atlas can certainly be used effectively in an open field battle. You just have to use it like many other Mechs. Use any available cover and screening fire from your other forces while it closes. Oddly enough, that's how you use it effectively with a fixed objective, too. If it's alone in any situation, it's easy pickings. Even in the trailer, the reason the Atlas was able to get so close to the Warhammer is that the Warhammer was busy engaging the Jenner.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Except that the medium lasers, again, only have a range of 9 hexes (270 meters). The hypothetical Griffin never has to get that close unless it's immobilized. And even if he did, it's hard enough to start a fire with lasers in a wooded area. In a wide open field, where there's nothing flammable... You've never heard of a plain's fire, then? Cigarette butts account for a few million acres of destroyed property in Texas... per year. Granted, it would be easier with a Flamer, but with six medium lasers, I'm sure you can get a fire going.




The difficulty with using an Atlas defensively is that the attacker has no obligation to close if he can take it out at range. A Warhammer[i] could probably beat it. An [i]Archer certainly could. So the Atlas pilot is left with a dilemma. He can sit there and hope the other guy is stupid enough to close. Or he can run around and hide behind something, leaving the target vulnerable. He can attempt to pursue the enemy (who is faster than he is), again leaving the target vulnerable, and not having any guarantee that he'll be able to get close enough to use his weapons while the lighter Mech whittles him down. Don't forget that a PPC is a lot more likely to get that one lucky shot that kills the pilot than a missile salvo. Not precisely true. If you are defending a walled city, for example, you just duck behind the wall. If he wants what is behind that wall, he *HAS* to close. Period. So you pound a hole in the wall. Good for you, he's got all those buildings to hide behind. Now you're in close-quarters urban setting vs an Atlas. Good luck with that.

And an Archer does NOT want to get into a missile duel with an Atlas, because an Atlas can run forward faster than the Archer can walk backwards, meaning sooner or later, it's gonna get caught (there's only a 1 move difference). Either it has to turn tale and run, receiving LRM rounds to the rear armor while it slowly gains distance, or the Atlas is going to close to maximum effective range, and the Archer will be a smoking crater.

A Warhammer will be a nastier customer, of course, but it has heat problems if it wants to keep up the pressure. So again, Atlas running vs Warhammer walking backwards. Yes, the Atlas is gonna get hurt a lot more than the sandblasting it would get from the Archer, but once he closes... that Warhammer ain't gonna be feeling pretty.

Sure, the Atlas is going to get hurt, but that's the price of piloting a 'mech. The Archer is going to be scrap when everything is done.


The Atlas can certainly be used effectively in an open field battle. You just have to use it like many other Mechs. Use any available cover and screening fire from your other forces while it closes. Oddly enough, that's how you use it effectively with a fixed objective, too. If it's alone in any situation, it's easy pickings. Even in the trailer, the reason the Atlas was able to get so close to the Warhammer is that the Warhammer was busy engaging the Jenner.

This is absolutely true. An Atlas *NEVER* goes out solo. They're too expensive, too valuable. Just like you never send a Battleship out alone without a screening element, or a Carrier without consort, you never send an Atlas out solo.

[Seonor]

Bad news for the Unseen. Aparently they couldn't get all the rights... Link (http://www.mektek.net/index.php?ind=news&op=news_show_single&ide=1083).

[Swordguy]

Bad news for the Unseen. Aparently they couldn't get all the rights... Link (http://www.mektek.net/index.php?ind=news&op=news_show_single&ide=1083).

Before anybody goes all panik-y, read this.

We've been discussing this...heatedly...over at CBT.com. The consensus from reading that article (and a few other developer comments) is that FASA entered into an agreement with a "Mysterious Company" (MC hereafter) regarding the usage of the Macross images.

So what has happened is the MC basically called up Catalyst and said "we've got this confidential agreement regarding these images - we need to renegotiate with you to keep lawyers out of it." Therefore, the guys at CGL have put the plans for the 12 Unseen that were directly derived from Macross on hold until this can be sorted out. With GenCon starting essentially now, this means that they can't get ANYTHING done until next week at the earliest.

Why didn't CGL know about this? Fairly simple answer, actually...FASA kept horrible records. FanPro/CGL basically got boxes and boxes of loose papers from FASA, in no specific order. Many more boxes were lost. Thus, knowing that CGL is incredibly gun-shy about dealing with lawyers and copyright (for good reason), they would never have released the press release about getting the Unseen back if they had any inkling about this. They could literally NOT have known - it's a confidential decision, remember? It's only open to view by the parties involved (FASA and the MC)...and Catalyst is NOT legally FASA. Thus they could not have known without FASA keeping good records. Blaming CGL is futile.


Further, you can bet the Powers that Be at CGL are incredibly livid about this. They had their Crowning Moment of Awesome blow up in their face from a time bomb left from a completely different company run by a completely different group of people. I'd be furious too.


Now, the conclusion to all this is the following:

EVERY OTHER UNSEEN except those 12 images listed (Archer, Longbow, Rifleman, Warhammer, Wasp, Stinger, Phoenix Hawk, Crusader, Marauder, Stinger LAM, Wasp LAM and Phoenix Hawk LAM) are still coming back. This includes the Dougram stuff, the Crusher Joe stuff, the Victor Musical Industries Clan IIC Mechs, and so on. it's just those 12 we don't have yet.

Further, this is not a statement of "these mechs are gone for good". It's a statement of "we ran into a legal issue we had no way of knowing even existed and we're trying to work things out - bear with us". Do NOT write off these designs just yet, folks!

EDIT: Here's the best summation I've seen:

Some of the Unseen are back, free and clear, others we just found out were subject to a secret settlement we didn't know about in a lawsuit we weren't a party to, which requires additional negotiations in order to secure the rights to them."

[Erloas]

So they have posted the Quick Start rules for "A Time of War: The Battletech RPG"

I haven't got a chance to read it yet, but I'm going to start here shortly. It sounds like they are trying to make the RPG work seemlessly with the rest of the Battletech game. So while it has a lot more RPG focus the combat isn't divorsed from the normal game and its not like they are re-inventing a combat system to use with the RPG. At least that is what I got from the overview page. I'll know more once I read it.

http://battletech.catalystgamelabs.com/2009/08/08/catalyst-to-publish-a-time-of-war-the-battletech-rpg/

[mangosta71]

You've never heard of a plain's fire, then? Cigarette butts account for a few million acres of destroyed property in Texas... per year. Granted, it would be easier with a Flamer, but with six medium lasers, I'm sure you can get a fire going.

But again, the hypothetical Griffin never has to get close enough for the medium lasers to set fire to the ground he's standing on, and he's mobile enough to avoid any preexisting fires.


Not precisely true. If you are defending a walled city, for example, you just duck behind the wall. If he wants what is behind that wall, he *HAS* to close. Period. So you pound a hole in the wall. Good for you, he's got all those buildings to hide behind. Now you're in close-quarters urban setting vs an Atlas. Good luck with that.

What's to stop any attackers from firing missiles over the wall if the Atlas is hiding? Even in an urban environment, a faster Mech can hide behind buildings too, so never actually has to face the Atlas. Just run circles around both and take potshots.


And an Archer does NOT want to get into a missile duel with an Atlas, because an Atlas can run forward faster than the Archer can walk backwards, meaning sooner or later, it's gonna get caught (there's only a 1 move difference). Either it has to turn tale and run, receiving LRM rounds to the rear armor while it slowly gains distance, or the Atlas is going to close to maximum effective range, and the Archer will be a smoking crater.

A Warhammer will be a nastier customer, of course, but it has heat problems if it wants to keep up the pressure. So again, Atlas running vs Warhammer walking backwards. Yes, the Atlas is gonna get hurt a lot more than the sandblasting it would get from the Archer, but once he closes... that Warhammer ain't gonna be feeling pretty.

How much ammo does the Atlas carry for that missile launcher? I think it only has one ton (6 shots) but I don't really remember and don't have access to my books here. If that's the case, he'll run dry long before the Archer does, at which point the Archer can turn its back for a few rounds to open the distance back up.

Same story with the Warhammer, except he can actually be facing away, twist, and fire one of his PPCs into his rear arc, so even while he's running away the Atlas is taking fire.

[Philistine]

The Atlas is an assault Mech. You do one of two things with it, you either use it to assault a fixed position or fortification, or you defend a fixed position or fortification with it. Note the use of the word "fixed", as in "a specific place, where the enemy HAS to be at some point".

I don't disagree with this. In fact, this would fall under the "other objectives" which I stated would prevent the Medium pilot having things all his own way. I never said the Atlas was useless, but it does have a notable vulnerability which can be exploited by certain types of opponents under certain circumstances, however artificial those circumstances might be.
__________________________________________________ _____

You've never heard of a plain's fire, then? Cigarette butts account for a few million acres of destroyed property in Texas... per year. Granted, it would be easier with a Flamer, but with six medium lasers, I'm sure you can get a fire going.
There are a couple of problems with this. First is the difficulty of igniting a Clear hex using medium lasers - it takes a pretty high roll, enough so that you're not guaranteed to get it even with 6 lasers firing. The larger problem is: even if you do succeed, what do you do then? Advance through the fire, building up your own internal heat without inflicting damage on the enemy? Or sit around waiting for the fire to burn out, leaving you in the same position as when you started but with Rough (IIRC) terrain all around, limiting your mobility even further? Again, if the Medium driver has all the time and space he needs, he just waits for the fires to burn out and goes in once the ground cover is gone. Yes, the postulated situation is highly artificial - something which I have acknowledged right along, even in my initial response to your statement that the Atlas is "lethal at every range."


And an Archer does NOT want to get into a missile duel with an Atlas, because an Atlas can run forward faster than the Archer can walk backwards, meaning sooner or later, it's gonna get caught (there's only a 1 move difference). Either it has to turn tale and run, receiving LRM rounds to the rear armor while it slowly gains distance, or the Atlas is going to close to maximum effective range, and the Archer will be a smoking crater.
Well, let's see. LRM max range = 21, AC/20 and medium laser max range = 9, and 21-9 = 12; hence 12 is the number of hexes the Atlas needs to close, under fire from the Archer's primary weapons, in order to bring its own main battery into play. The Atlas can close the range by one hex per turn, meaning the Archer has 12 turns to fire before the Atlas can even start bringing its primary weapons to bear. Both the Archer and the Atlas carry enough LRM ammunition to fire for 12 turns before running dry... So on the infinite featureless plain (speaking of bizarre artificial circumstances), the Atlas will never quite get within firing range of the Archer, as the Archer will turn tail and run when both sides run out of missiles - which will happen on the turn before the Atlas reaches maximum range for its big guns.


A Warhammer will be a nastier customer, of course, but it has heat problems if it wants to keep up the pressure. So again, Atlas running vs Warhammer walking backwards. Yes, the Atlas is gonna get hurt a lot more than the sandblasting it would get from the Archer, but once he closes... that Warhammer ain't gonna be feeling pretty.

Sure, the Atlas is going to get hurt, but that's the price of piloting a 'mech. The Archer is going to be scrap when everything is done.
Actually, the Warhammer's arm-mounted primary armament gives its pilot the means to control the range to target and his own heat issues, as well as presenting a constantly-changing aspect to the Atlas's missiles. I do agree that this matchup would be worse for the Atlas than the Archer fight; the Whammer's PPCs won't run out of ammo, and their more flexible mounting increases the Whammer driver's mobility options.


This is absolutely true. An Atlas *NEVER* goes out solo. They're too expensive, too valuable. Just like you never send a Battleship out alone without a screening element, or a Carrier without consort, you never send an Atlas out solo.
Now THIS I absolutely agree with. An Atlas would not, and should not, operate alone. Not ever. No, not even then. As beastly as the Atlas is at close range, far too many possible opponents beat it on both mobility and long-range firepower.

[Alex Knight]

The AS7-D Atlas carries two tons of ammo for its LRM-20 launcher.

A point you need to consider is that the ARC-2R Archer will overheat if it fires both of its LRM-20 racks, even if it stands still.

Assuming it backs up while the Atlas closes, after the second salvo it will have the same speed as the Atlas. After the third salvo it will be slower.

This is not a good equation for the Archer.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There are a couple of problems with this. First is the difficulty of igniting a Clear hex using medium lasers - it takes a pretty high roll, enough so that you're not guaranteed to get it even with 6 lasers firing. The larger problem is: even if you do succeed, what do you do then? Advance through the fire, building up your own internal heat without inflicting damage on the enemy? Or sit around waiting for the fire to burn out, leaving you in the same position as when you started but with Rough (IIRC) terrain all around, limiting your mobility even further? Again, if the Medium driver has all the time and space he needs, he just waits for the fires to burn out and goes in once the ground cover is gone. Yes, the postulated situation is highly artificial - something which I have acknowledged right along, even in my initial response to your statement that the Atlas is "lethal at every range." Actually, you start backing up. Outside of the medium mech with longer range's effective range. And you keep doing it. Until you are back somewhere that has a tactical advantage for you. This is, of course, assuming the same artificial settings.

For example, you start a fire in the hex directly in front of you, which starts producing smoke to block LoS. You back up 3 hexes. Then another 3. Then you sit at 6 hexes. Either he closes, or he doesn't. If he closes, you blow him away.

Now, where is he? Is he hovering around 20 hexes and take pot-shots at me from long range? Fine. Archer only has a couple tons of ammo himself. If he wants to waste ammo on a nat 12 shot, go on ahead. Because when your run out of LRM ammo, buddy? All you got left is 4 medium lasers. I got them too, and an AC/20 and an SRM/6 to back them up. Does he want to hang around 12 hexes? Medum range for him, but out of range for the Atlas. Fine, start up more fires next to you again. Repeat ad infinitum. Atlas isn't blowing any resources, and is effectively denying the archer any targets.

Even if the archer wants to hover just outside the fire, at the 7 hex 'sweet spot', he's got problems. Sure, he's shooting at close range. But the Atlas has at least a chance to hit you with 4 medum lasers, an SRM/6, and (if he wants to blow the ammo, personally I wouldn't) the AC/20. Now here's the other thing to consider: An Atlas has 19 tons of armor. An Archer? Around half that. Question is: Do you feel lucky punk?


Well, let's see. LRM max range = 21, AC/20 and medium laser max range = 9, and 21-9 = 12; hence 12 is the number of hexes the Atlas needs to close, under fire from the Archer's primary weapons, in order to bring its own main battery into play. The Atlas can close the range by one hex per turn, meaning the Archer has 12 turns to fire before the Atlas can even start bringing its primary weapons to bear. Both the Archer and the Atlas carry enough LRM ammunition to fire for 12 turns before running dry... So on the infinite featureless plain (speaking of bizarre artificial circumstances), the Atlas will never quite get within firing range of the Archer, as the Archer will turn tail and run when both sides run out of missiles - which will happen on the turn before the Atlas reaches maximum range for its big guns. Interesting math, and I commend you for it.

Were I in the Atlas? I wouldn't be firing until I got into Medium range with the LRM/20. With my running and his movement of 4 hexes, I wouldn't be hitting anyways. So yes, at maximum range, I am willing to accept shots from the Archer. His odds of hitting me? Negligable. I'm moving 5 hexes, and he's walking backwards. Unless he's got hella gunnery skill, he ain't gonna be hitting me. If he wants to waste ammo? Fine, be my guest. Even if he does get lucky with a shot, I've got 19 tons of armor. He's not going to do more than scratch the paint job.

So, actual effective range is an LRM's medum range. So we're starting firing at 14 hexes, not 21. Unless the Archer is dumb enough to be blowing through his ammo for a 'lucky shot', in which case, be my guest, you'll run out sooner. Which means the Atlas will be able to close to maximum firing range on his Medium Lasers (and vice versa, but does the Archer really want that kind of heat buildup?) in 5 turns.

At that point, either the Archer runs, or is blown away, because three turns later, you're in Medium range of my Medium Lasers, my SRM/6, and my AC/20. Which is to say, scrap metal.

Even without the other weapons, an Archer doesn't have all that good armor for a Heavy. He could very well already have an armor location or two very dangerously close to being breached. In which case, the SRM/6, with a similar sandblast spread, has a lot of chances to do a couple damage to internal structure, which means a roll to see if I do a critical or not. And with your ammo, that is something you do not want me to start doing with any kind of reliability. That's why I don't bother with the big gun in this fight. 4x Medium Lasers + 1x SRM/6 is plenty big heat generation for me, I'm just needing a couple of crits and you're scrap. Either I start disabling weapon systems, I hit your ammo bin (in which case, you are a fireworks display), or I hit something nasty like cockpit or gyro or actuator, in which case you are buggered.

Either way, the Atlas is considered the victor, because he either defeats or chases off the invading Archer with negligible damage sustained.


Actually, the Warhammer's arm-mounted primary armament gives its pilot the means to control the range to target and his own heat issues, as well as presenting a constantly-changing aspect to the Atlas's missiles. I do agree that this matchup would be worse for the Atlas than the Archer fight; the Warhammer's PPCs won't run out of ammo, and their more flexible mounting increases the Warhmmer driver's mobility options. Also the PPC's minimum range being much shorter means his shots only get more accurate as the Atlas closes into it's optimal firing range of 3-6 hexes, which means he goes rapid-fire on both PPC's, trying to punch through the Atlas's armor, already weakened by the previous pot-shots, and score a critical damage before getting pounded himself, which is entirely possible. And yes, because he can alternate fire, and change the armor location being fired at, the Warhammer is a much more serious long-range threat. At that point, the Atlas continues making blocking fires while retreating to a more strategically advantagous location. If the Warhammer runs through the smoke, the Atlas is close enough to hammer him hard. Either way, he's negated the Warhammer's range advantage, although he does technically 'loose' the engagement on a perfectly flat plain because he is forced to retreat.

[mangosta71]

Actually, you start backing up. Outside of the medium mech with longer range's effective range. And you keep doing it. Until you are back somewhere that has a tactical advantage for you. This is, of course, assuming the same artificial settings.

For example, you start a fire in the hex directly in front of you, which starts producing smoke to block LoS. You back up 3 hexes. Then another 3. Then you sit at 6 hexes. Either he closes, or he doesn't. If he closes, you blow him away.

Or the medium Mech takes one step to the side and has a clear shot again until you manage to start another fire along his new vector.


Now, where is he? Is he hovering around 20 hexes and take pot-shots at me from long range? Fine. Archer only has a couple tons of ammo himself. If he wants to waste ammo on a nat 12 shot, go on ahead. Because when your run out of LRM ammo, buddy? All you got left is 4 medium lasers. I got them too, and an AC/20 and an SRM/6 to back them up. Does he want to hang around 12 hexes? Medum range for him, but out of range for the Atlas. Fine, start up more fires next to you again. Repeat ad infinitum. Atlas isn't blowing any resources, and is effectively denying the archer any targets.

Even if the archer wants to hover just outside the fire, at the 7 hex 'sweet spot', he's got problems. Sure, he's shooting at close range. But the Atlas has at least a chance to hit you with 4 medum lasers, an SRM/6, and (if he wants to blow the ammo, personally I wouldn't) the AC/20. Now here's the other thing to consider: An Atlas has 19 tons of armor. An Archer? Around half that. Question is: Do you feel lucky punk?

Interesting math, and I commend you for it.

Were I in the Atlas? I wouldn't be firing until I got into Medium range with the LRM/20. With my running and his movement of 4 hexes, I wouldn't be hitting anyways. So yes, at maximum range, I am willing to accept shots from the Archer. His odds of hitting me? Negligable. I'm moving 5 hexes, and he's walking backwards. Unless he's got hella gunnery skill, he ain't gonna be hitting me. If he wants to waste ammo? Fine, be my guest. Even if he does get lucky with a shot, I've got 19 tons of armor. He's not going to do more than scratch the paint job.

So, actual effective range is an LRM's medum range. So we're starting firing at 14 hexes, not 21. Unless the Archer is dumb enough to be blowing through his ammo for a 'lucky shot', in which case, be my guest, you'll run out sooner. Which means the Atlas will be able to close to maximum firing range on his Medium Lasers (and vice versa, but does the Archer really want that kind of heat buildup?) in 5 turns.

At that point, either the Archer runs, or is blown away, because three turns later, you're in Medium range of my Medium Lasers, my SRM/6, and my AC/20. Which is to say, scrap metal.

Even without the other weapons, an Archer doesn't have all that good armor for a Heavy. He could very well already have an armor location or two very dangerously close to being breached. In which case, the SRM/6, with a similar sandblast spread, has a lot of chances to do a couple damage to internal structure, which means a roll to see if I do a critical or not. And with your ammo, that is something you do not want me to start doing with any kind of reliability. That's why I don't bother with the big gun in this fight. 4x Medium Lasers + 1x SRM/6 is plenty big heat generation for me, I'm just needing a couple of crits and you're scrap. Either I start disabling weapon systems, I hit your ammo bin (in which case, you are a fireworks display), or I hit something nasty like cockpit or gyro or actuator, in which case you are buggered.

As I recall, the Archer carries pretty close to the maximum amount of armor allowed for a 70 ton Mech, so 13 tons or so. Well over half of 19. I know it carries more armor than a Warhammer (who comes in at 11 iirc).

On the plus side, at least you're acknowledging the Atlas's heat issues instead of handwaving them away while saying that the Archer will overheat.

Now, let's say the Archer is packing a ton of Thunder ammo. Now he's shooting at the ground underneath the Atlas, which puts his effective range back up to his maximum. The Atlas can pretty safely ignore 40 damage from moving out of the minefield the first time. The second time puts him in a quandary, because unless the damage is perfectly evenly distributed he's gonna take internal damage, but it's move out of it or be immobile. He can't even turn in his space without setting them off. Assuming he moves out of the second minefield, the Archer puts a third under him. This one is almost guaranteed to take a leg off. Either he moves or not, and either way the Atlas is immobilized and the Archer has 3 more tons of ammo. And when he runs out of that, he can walk around behind the Atlas and shoot into his back at his leisure.


Also the PPC's minimum range being much shorter means his shots only get more accurate as the Atlas closes into it's optimal firing range of 3-6 hexes, which means he goes rapid-fire on both PPC's, trying to punch through the Atlas's armor, already weakened by the previous pot-shots, and score a critical damage before getting pounded himself, which is entirely possible. And yes, because he can alternate fire, and change the armor location being fired at, the Warhammer is a much more serious long-range threat. At that point, the Atlas continues making blocking fires while retreating to a more strategically advantagous location. If the Warhammer runs through the smoke, the Atlas is close enough to hammer him hard. Either way, he's negated the Warhammer's range advantage, although he does technically 'loose' the engagement on a perfectly flat plain because he is forced to retreat.

Given the medium range for weapons being the maximum effective range condition, why would the Warhammer ever close to even the Atlas's maximum firing range? Given a fire in an intervening hex, why would he charge straight through it instead of running to the side? He might get out of effective range for a turn, but he once again has a clear shot. As Philistine commented, starting a fire in a clear hex isn't reliable enough for you to say that you'll be able to start one every turn, and even then the smoke screen is stationary. Yes, you can move around it too in an attempt to keep it between the two Mechs, but the first time the Atlas loses the initiative roll the other Mech runs in the same direction he does and the smoke isn't in the line between them any more. It's even easier for the other Mech if the Atlas is moving straight back or not moving at all.

In the end, yes, the Atlas is a powerful design, and surprisingly well-optimized for its role for a stock design, but it has a weakness that a smart pilot in a long-range Mech can exploit to defeat it fairly easily in a one-on-one. As you said, it carries a lot of armor, so it will be a slow kill, but it's still easy.

[Erloas]

It might help if you defined which version of a 'Mech you were talking about. The Atlas only has 1 3025 config, but the Warhammer and Archer both have 4. The Warhammer has 3 at 10 and 1 at 14 tons of armor, and I think the 14 ton is the "standard" Warhammer, the 6D with 2xPPCs, 2xML, and 2xSL.
The Archer has 1 at 10 tons (2xLRM-20, 2xSRM-4, 2xML), 2 at 13 ton [2xLRM-20, 2xML, 2xML(R) and second 2xLRM-15, 2xML, 2xML(R), and 2xSRM-4) and 1 at 11 tons (2xLL, 2xLRM-15).

It would be interesting to see what chance an Archer actually has of taking out an Atlas before running out of ammo. If you consider that the average LRM-20 hit will do 12 points of damage (slightly more, maybe 13-14, I don't want to calculate it all out with the bell curve, the straight average is 12.8) and you have 24 shots you will do 288 points of damage if you hit every single shot and roll average for missile hits. The 19 tons of armor on the Atlas is 304 points worth of ammo. With the spread of missile fire you are likely going to take out pieces of armor in a lot of places before going internal. The left/right torsos are the weakest with 32 points each, the center has 47. It would take almost 3 full missile groups concentrated on a single torso location to go internal, 4 for the center. The 2 MLs are the only things not located in a torso location, so the loss of an arm is minimal.

Considering that statistically you aren't going to be hitting more then half your LRM shots (and even that is iffy without a great gunnery and managing to stay in medium range for them the whole time) I think the Atlas simply has too much armor for the Archer to be able to reliably take it down even if it can stay at range.

The Archers armor on the other hand, even with 13 tons, means only the center torso can take more then a single AC20 shot and ML will go internal on everything but the center torso and leg (which would have 1 point left from 1AC and 1 ML).

Against the Warhammer, any of the 10 ton armor ones, a single AC 20 shot will go internal on everything but the CT (2 armor left) and arms (0 armor left).

Keeping the Atlas at long range will mean it isn't going to hit much, but just 1 lucky hit with the AC20 (which it has 10 rounds for) will hurt bad.

edit: So even with a decent pilot in the Archer, say 3/4 and our average movements (walk back for the archer, run for Atlas) and staying in medium range that means the Archer is hitting on 8s without any other terrain features to get in the way. So he hits a bit less then half his missiles. Which means when he runs out of ammo the Atlas still has about half of his armor left. Then his choice is either to "close in for the kill" with 2xML or run. Even with only half his armor left the Atlas is going to win a close and kill fight because he only has to stack 2 hits to go internal, unless the Archer managed to stack enough hits on the RT to take out the AC20, or either LT or RT and hit ammo. And given the way missiles hit and the expected hit rate that isn't likely. Given that the Atlas would also likely have hit about half his LRM20 shots too the Archer would be down about 30-40% armor and an AC20 hit would likely go internal on the first hit.

The Warhammer has the advantage of not running out of ammo, but it has heat problems too.

[mangosta71]

I'm assuming the second configuration for the Archer, as it's the one included in the original box set. The standard Warhammer (again, assuming the one in the box set is standard) carries 2 PPCs, 2 medium lasers, and an SRM-6. Think it also carries a pair of small lasers and machine guns. It's certainly not the variant with 14 tons of armor.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If I may?

As I pointed out, the Archer has only 8 rounds in which it has an advantage. From Medium range of the LRM's to the Medium range of the AC/20/SRM/ML's. Actually, it's around 5 turns, because then the Atlas can open up with some of of his ML's, so unless the Archer wants to make ammo explosion and shutdown checks like crazy, he's not going to want to match that. 4x ML's effectively have the same 'spread' as an LRM/20.

So the question is: Can an Archer take out an Atlas with 8 rounds of constant fire?

The answer is: No.

In the first place, he'd be slowly gaining heat, around 3 per turn. 2x LRM/20's = 12 heat, plus 1 for walking. So after 5 rounds, he's got 15 heat, unless he's turned off one LRM/20 twice somewhere.

However, here's the problem with that line of reasoning:

After two turns, the Archer slows down to a 3/5 due to heat build up, unless he only fires with one LRM/20. The Atlas, on the other hand, is only firing one LRM/20 and running, for a total buildup of 8, which is completely negated by his heat sinks. So during this phase of the fight, the Atlas is not concerned with heat.

Let's look at a phase-by-phase breakdown of the fight:

Phase 1: Range = 14-9 hexes

Option 1: Archer alternates between firing two and one LRM per round, and maintains his speed at a somewhat reduced rate of fire. This optimizes distance. In this case, in 5 rounds, he shoots 8 shots (2 on 1st, 1 on 2nd, 2 on 3rd, 1 on 4th, 2 on 5th).

At Medium Range (base 6), Walking (+1), with Opponent moving 5 squares (+2) he's got 9's to hit. Not very good odds, but worth shooting with. Odds of rolling a 9+ on 2d6... I can't calculate right now, but is significantly less than half. More like a third, or even a quarter.

Now then, let's throw the Archer a bone, and for the sake of this calculation, assume that he is lucky and 4 of the shots hit (50%). So an average of... let's say 13 damage (again, highballing it, but trying to be utmost fair to the Archer) a hit gives you 52 damage. Spread out in 5 point increments. Barring getting two headshots for 5 damage each (highly unlikely, but theoretically possible), this is merely scratching the paint to the Atlas, who has a total of 304 armor. The odds of any one location being worn down to internal structure is... minimal.

Option 2: Archer wants to 'burn him down', maxing out his damage output per turn, and accepts the heat buildup for firing both LRM/20's every round while walking.

Turn 1: Fires both and moves normally.
Turn 2: Fires both, gains enough heat that he is at a -1 to move next turn
Turn 3: Fires both, Atlas gains 2 squares on him this round, reducing total time to 4 rounds
Turn 4: Fires both again, and Atlas is now at 9 hexes.

In other words, he shoots the same number of times, but Option 2 gives him less time in following phases of the fight, so we'll assume he is smart and goes with Option 1.

The atlas simply fires and runs every round. This gives him 5 shots, which we assume 2 hit (because it's a lot less than 50/50 likely, we will round down) for a total of 26 damage to the Archer. Also scratching the paint job.

Phase 2: Range = 8-6 hexes

This is only a three-turn phase, but will be where the deciding hits probably land, at least in the Archer's favor.

Assuming we use Option 1 before, which is in every way advantagous to the Archer, as Option 2 makes this a single round

Option 1: Fires 1 shot at 8, then 2 at 7, then 1 at 6

The shots at 7 are at Close Range, with an attack roll of 4+2+1= 7. Slam, bam. Still got truly even odds of hitting, though, as 7 is the mean number on 2d6. Now, at range 6, he actually has a -1 on his attack roll, making it up to an 8.

4 shots fired, assuming 2 hit, that's another 26 damage.

Option 2: HOLY CRAP HE'S GETTING CLOSE! FULL BURN!!

Fires 2 shots at 8. But because he fired 2 shots at 9, this reduces his speed the next turn. So he doesn't get a 'sweet spot' shot at 7. Fires 2 at 6.

In other words, 4 shots fired, at crappier attack rolls.

Option 3: Hold fire at 8, then full attack with both at 7 and 6 hexes.

This provides best firing solutions for him at this phase, as the attack rolls at 6 is better than those at 8. Doesn't really change our numbers, as I was giving the Archer a LOT of slack in his attack rolls earlier.

Any option which includes ML's will likely cause massive overheat, but the ML's have an attack of 11+ at this range.

The atlas has a lot more options now, but has a problem with Heat, and the range gives his other attacks a to-hit roll of 11's. He's going to be opening up with two of his ML's, still with no heat buildup. He could open up with 3 of his 4 ML's and only gain 1 heat per round, while still firing his LRM/20. So let's look at the Atlas's options.

Option 1: Keeping it Cool

Every round he fires with his LRM/20, that much is a given. In this case, we will also be firing 2 ML's. This will result in 1-2 hits, for another 13-26 damage. Stastically speaking, the two lasers won't have much of an impact, but it is worth firing for the 'golden bee-bee' shot. In this case, we will figure on 1 hit from six attacks during this phase for 5 damage.

Option 2: Rapid Fire

Now he will be firing with 3 of his lasers, for a total of 9 attacks. This will likely net him with another hit, for an extra 5 damage, but while he isn't slowing down yet, he will be soon.

So let's go with Option 1.

So the Atlas is peppered pretty hard, but no crits opened yet, and the Archer is likewise sandblasted, although not as much.

Phase 3: 5-0 hexes.

Let's break this down a bit further, hex by hex, why don't we?

At 5 hexes, the Archer has 9's or better on his LRM's again, and his Lasers also have 9's. Likewise, the Atlas has 9's on everything.

So, let's compare what we can do:

Archer:
Option 1: ALPHA STRIKE! all four ML's and both LRM's. This generates 32 heat, which practically shuts the mech down, since he was already sporting some heat from previous rounds. This might do 10 from the lasers, plus 13 from the LRM's. Depending on the situation, this may or may not start breaching, but the Atlas is pretty sandblasted if it doesn't. However, this means next round, the Atlas can close to melee range, shoot with his AC/20, SRM/6, a couple of lasers/ and PUNCH. At close range. With opponent not moving, he's got 6's. Not smart for the Archer.

Option 2: 2ML's. No heat buildup is good. an average of 5 damage is not.

Option 3: 2 LRM/20's. Average 13 damage. Heat buildup. With Option 1 from previous round, he's not worried about it, but will have to turn back the damage output next round or be slowing down. With Option 2 from the previous round, he is hot enough that he slows down next turn.

Now let's look at the Atlas's options:

The LRM/20 is now unused. It has served the purpose it was intended for. It won't be used in successive rounds.

Option 1: The AC/20 costs 9 heat to shoot. That gives him 10 left to play with. That's either 2 ML's or 1 ML and the SRM/6. Let's go with the AC/20, SRM/6, and 1 ML. For a total of 1 heat buildup per round. At this rate, it will take him 4 rounds to start slowing down.

Option 2: Alpha Strike.

AC/20 + 4x ML's + SRM/6. Now here's the fun. Let's say that every location, other than the CT, has been sandblasted down below 20 due to the 52 average damage from the LRM's up to this point. So the AC/20 hitting anything but the CT is going to be very bad news. The 4 ML's are going to score two hits at this point, and the SRM/6 might bring another 6-8 points. However, this costs a crapton of heat. 9 from the AC, 20 from the ML's, 4 from the SRM, and 2 from running. That's 36 heat. 19 heat sinks drop that to 17. Still not a happy place to be.

Option 3: AC/20 + 2ML's + SRM/6. Generates 5 heat, and slows him down for next turn.

I would go with Option 1. Closing only gets better for him right now.

4 hexes: If the Archer is slowing down, this is actually 3 hexes, and the ML's and everything the Atlas has is now at close range. Sorry, but the Archer is not going to survive that. The AC/20 hitting anywhere but the CT now penetrates armor, wheras it will still take several hits from the ML's to penetrate the Atlas's armor now. This is the Archer's crippling disadvantage.

From here, he can shoot 2 ML's. Sure. More than that, and he slows down and the Atlas catches him. Weight of fire shifts to the Atlas's favor. Heavily.

Even if it didn't slow down, the LRM's are at 10+ to hit, so he's either shooting 2 ML's or 4 ML's and slowing down. This isn't enough to penetrate the Atlas's sandblasted armor, save for a lucky headshot.

Under 3 hexes, the Archer is scrap metal. The Atlas has had 2-3 turns with his AC/20, at least one is going to hit. ML and LRM/6 will be sandblasting as well, which will cause more vulnerabilities. Let's face it, the AC/20 is going to be the finishing weapon.

Is the Atlas hurt? Yes. Almost a third of the armor is sandblasted off, but probably doesn't have any structure showing yet. Is it dead? Not unless he got an unlucky pair of headshots.

This is taking into consideration very generous attack solutions, which favors the Archer. If you take a 9 to mean only 1 in 3 or even 1 in 4 shots hit, the Atlas emerges almost unscathed.

To make a long post short: Atlas eats an Archer.

[Rockphed]

This is taking into consideration very generous attack solutions, which favors the Archer. If you take a 9 to mean only 1 in 3 or even 1 in 4 shots hit, the Atlas emerges almost unscathed.

To make a long post short: Atlas eats an Archer.

Needing a 9 or more to hit has about a 28% chance of hitting. Needing a 7 or more means a 21/36, or about a 58% chance of hitting. Somebody better at calculating chances could probably tell you the odds of hitting with a certain number of shots during any of these parts.

[Erloas]

Well for to-hit references, the chance of hitting a on 7+ is 58.3%, 8+ is 41.7%, 9+ is 27.8%, 10+ is 16.7%.

LRM20 comes in 12 rounds per ton of ammo and all the archers I saw had 2 tons. Although even with 24 rounds, at a 9+ that is only about 7 hits.

The chance of hitting a center torso possible crit is 1 in 36, ie 2.8%. Which is the same chance of hitting a head.
Even with an average of 12 missiles hitting (well above statistic average) for ~13 points (ie 3 clusters) that is 36 hit locations. If we assume he gets standard distribution that is going to be one head hit and one center torso possible crit. The head hit really isn't an issue until you get 2, and if one of them happened to be a smaller cluster (not 5) it means even the second one isn't going to cause a crit either. It might make it more likely for someone to fall unconscious, but not likely (also the same 2.8% chance on the first hit).
The center torso possible crit could really be the deciding factor, with a 41.7% chance of getting that 8+ needed for a crit, since the Atlas only has 2 good places to take a crit in the center torso (the 2 MLs facing rear).

One thing ShneekeytheLost missed is that 2 of the 4 MLs on the Atlas are rear facing so don't really come into play. Also the Archer -2R also has 2 rear facing MLs, along with the 2 LRM20s and 2front facing MLs. The Archer -2W (the only other 3025 Archer with LRM20s) has 2 MLs and 2 SRM-4s.
I don't think either change would really make any difference in the outcome. It just takes way too many missiles to take down an Atlas, more missiles then any Archer has (there was a single 3070 Archer with 36 rounds, but still not really enough, I don't think the 24 rounds of Artimis would change things either, but of course a lot of those other designs have other secondary weapons too)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well for to-hit references, the chance of hitting a on 7+ is 58.3%, 8+ is 41.7%, 9+ is 27.8%, 10+ is 16.7%.

LRM20 comes in 12 rounds per ton of ammo and all the archers I saw had 2 tons. Although even with 24 rounds, at a 9+ that is only about 7 hits.

The chance of hitting a center torso possible crit is 1 in 36, ie 2.8%. Which is the same chance of hitting a head.
Even with an average of 12 missiles hitting (well above statistic average) for ~13 points (ie 3 clusters) that is 36 hit locations. If we assume he gets standard distribution that is going to be one head hit and one center torso possible crit. The head hit really isn't an issue until you get 2, and if one of them happened to be a smaller cluster (not 5) it means even the second one isn't going to cause a crit either. It might make it more likely for someone to fall unconscious, but not likely (also the same 2.8% chance on the first hit).
The center torso possible crit could really be the deciding factor, with a 41.7% chance of getting that 8+ needed for a crit, since the Atlas only has 2 good places to take a crit in the center torso (the 2 MLs facing rear).

One thing ShneekeytheLost missed is that 2 of the 4 MLs on the Atlas are rear facing so don't really come into play. Also the Archer -2R also has 2 rear facing MLs, along with the 2 LRM20s and 2front facing MLs. The Archer -2W (the only other 3025 Archer with LRM20s) has 2 MLs and 2 SRM-4s.
I don't think either change would really make any difference in the outcome. It just takes way too many missiles to take down an Atlas, more missiles then any Archer has (there was a single 3070 Archer with 36 rounds, but still not really enough, I don't think the 24 rounds of Artimis would change things either, but of course a lot of those other designs have other secondary weapons too)

My friends and I allow a houserule where any rear-facing weapons are turned to the front at pilot's option, I've just done it for so long that I forget that two of the lasers on either side are rear-facing. It doesn't really change anything, as neither one really wants to fire all four anyways, simply because it starts slowing them both down too badly. This is a stern-chase, speed is crucial, for the Archer to keep the Atlas at range where it has the advantage the longest, and the Atlas to close with the Archer as quickly as possible.

At a 25% chance of hitting on 9+, the Archer only hits twice during phase 1, and the Atlas hits once. Both will hit once during phase 2 with their missiles, and the Atlas might hit once with his medium laser. During Phase 3, assuming the Archer didn't run by then, it gets turned into scrap when he starts taking hits from the AC/20. More than one in any given location = dead location. Possibly one hit in any location might mean dead location, depending on the sandblasting from the LRM's in Phase 1 and 2, and the SRM/6. Of course, if the Archer is stupid enough to allow the Atlas into melee range, one kick and the Archer can't move anymore...

With a total of 3 group clusters per LRM hit, there will be a total of 3 hits for 9 damage rolls on the Atlas while it closes. Odds are 1 in 4 against that he gets either one headshot or one golden bee-bee. The Archer's only hope in hell is that he gets lucky on a torso crit and blows an engine hit for 5 heat generated per turn, which limits the Atlas's firing options if he wishes to remain moving at full speed. Even then, the Atlas will still come out ahead, it'll just be more inconvenient for him. Gyro hit won't really affect him, as he's not making any piloting checks. If one of the ML's goes out, he just uses the other one plus the SRM/6 in addition to his AC/20.

In other words, Archer is scrap metal and Atlas has a scratched paint job.

Now a Hussar might have a better chance at doing hit-and-run tactics on an Atlas. However, one shot and the Hussar is scrap. His best bet is to make strafing runs at a full 14 move, turning around outside Atlas's effective range, then repeating. Even then, all it takes is ONE lucky hit to kill the Hussar, while the Hussar needs a *LOT* of hits to hurt the Atlas.

[Alex Knight]

In all seriousness, you want to know what to take to kill an Atlas in 3025?

AWS-8Q Awesome. And boy howdy, does it live up to the name.

3 PPCs and 28 heat sinks for sustained fire (3/3/2 pattern), 3/5 movement, and armored like a cast-iron brick.

[Winterwind]

I'm pretty sure it's the best designed 'Mech in 3025.

Truth be told, I've grown a tad disillusioned with BattleTech, 3025 tech only in particular, due to how effective it is to simply put an Awesome into some heavy forest and keep shooting from there. That's also a reason why I welcome all the tech available in 3050 and thereafter - at least 'Mechs become fast enough for movement and tactics to actually have a chance to be superior to just putting assault 'Mechs into places with good cover and leaving them there for the rest of the game...

[mangosta71]

What about the scenario I lined out? Archer sporting a ton of Thunder ammunition. At maximum range, even if he walks backwards, he's hitting his target (the ground underneath the Atlas) on a 5 (that's 83.3% accuracy) assuming a gunnery skill of 4. If his skill is 3, he has a 91.7% chance to hit. Skill 3 and not moving puts it up to anything but snakeeyes hitting. The Atlas doesn't take any damage until it moves, but then he's guaranteed to take 40 to his legs (unless the rules for mines have changed since I last played with them).

Say the Archer does this at a range of 21 hexes. The Atlas shrugs the damage off the first time. Archer doesn't move, Atlas continues to charge. Range is now 16, the Atlas has another 40 point minefield at its feet. Atlas pilot prays for perfectly even distribution of damage, because if he doesn't roll each leg the exact same number of times his armor is breached and he's in danger of a critical slowing him down. Say he gets it, so he's not slowed. Range is now 11. Another 40 point minefield, and the Atlas can't bring its primary weaponry to bear yet. If he moves out of the minefield again, or even turns inside it, a perfectly even distribution of damage leaves him with 3 spots of internal structure left per leg, and really dismal chances of not losing at least an actuator. The Archer hasn't moved or done anything but fire its missiles, so it's up to 6 points of heat. Atlas is still nice and frosty. And almost certainly immobile. And if he does lose a leg, which is almost a certainty, he sets the mines off again when he crashes down on top of them.

Let's assume that he still has both legs, at 3 points of structure each, and no critical damage, and continues to close. He brings the range down to 6. The Archer pilot charges, weathering the fire for one round, and kicks. Atlas is on the ground and at the Archer's mercy. So, let's give him a more favorable assumption. He has taken actuator damage, reducing his speed to 2/3. Now the Archer can't close to kicking distance in one turn. But he can back up and follow the tactics you assume for him. The Atlas cannot close the distance to less than 11 hexes unless the Archer wills it so, and keeping him there negates his chance to get a lucky shot with the AC. And a single cluster of missiles hitting either leg (at a result of 5 or 9, there's a 44.4% chance per roll) will knock it down. And once the Atlas is on the ground, the Archer can charge in and stomp on him until he submits.

[Erloas]

I'm pretty sure it's the best designed 'Mech in 3025.

Truth be told, I've grown a tad disillusioned with BattleTech, 3025 tech only in particular, due to how effective it is to simply put an Awesome into some heavy forest and keep shooting from there. That's also a reason why I welcome all the tech available in 3050 and thereafter - at least 'Mechs become fast enough for movement and tactics to actually have a chance to be superior to just putting assault 'Mechs into places with good cover and leaving them there for the rest of the game...

Eh... I'm starting to move away from 3025 more too. I like most of the later options, but it really does a lot to escalate all the 'Mechs to heavy or assault.
At this point I'm still mostly teaching other people how to play, I haven't got anyone else that knows the rules that well, so adding in a lot of new things really slows things down and makes a lot more work for me and trips to the rulebooks. I haven't even mentioned things like charging, and I really haven't used anything other then 'Mechs and the very rare tank.

The problem with the later periods is that there are too many designs that basically make light and a good portion of medium 'Mechs a waste. At least in 3025 if something big parks you can stay behind it and work through its rear armor fairly quickly and use speed to keep the smaller 'Mechs alive. However when you get a 'Mech with <10 armor on most locations the only thing keeping them alive is being faster then their opponents, but when you run into things with tracking computers, a lot of big weapons with great ranges and the heatsinks to fire them a lot, and pulse weapons the movement mods just aren't enough to keep those small 'Mechs alive.
There are just so many weapons that can cripple those small fast 'Mechs in a single hit.

Its really nice having big 'Mechs with the speed to actually do something to keep people moving and make it less practical to just park and snipe. But the speed of the small 'Mechs doesn't scale up quite so well, because a high end heavy or assault going 5/8/5 is a lot more of an upgrade then a light going from 10/15 to 12/18 because the change from a +4 to a +5 is huge.

The best games I've had so far have all been with mostly randomly picked 'Mechs mostly focusing on mediums with some heavies and lights mixed in. If people simply don't have the option to take an assault 'Mech and park it somewhere then things stay more interesting. Less options of high powered and very long range weapons also makes sniping much less practical. When someone needs to move to get reasonable ranges with their big weapons they do. Its not like you have a lot of people sniping with the various types of AC2s and 5s, even LRMs aren't hugely successful snipers because of the clustering. You still have PPCs, but thats about it and most things don't have the HSs to sustain fire with them (and very few have more then 1 or 2). With things like gauss rifles, HAGs, ER PPCs, ER LLs, clan energy weapons in general, it makes the effective range of big 'Mechs too good for those smaller 'Mechs to have a chance at actually dictating range. The loss of the biggest drawback of LRMs, the minimum range, is also gone on clan 'Mechs.


In short, at least for the time being, so long as the people I'm playing with don't know the game inside and out, I'm going to just be giving everyone 'Mechs that have issues (heat, range, or speed) and just ignore all those super high powered builds. And not really let people take those super pilots or 2/5 pilots.

[Winterwind]

@mangosta71: I don't have my rule books with me, haven't read the relevant passages for a while and am not too familiar with the rules for mines in the first place, but I'm pretty sure that if the mines are shot into the hex where the Atlas is already standing, the Atlas can move out without suffering damage (the justification being that its pilot can see where the mines impact).



@Erloas: Yes, I realize the issue with better tech making light 'Mechs kinda obsolete. I'm not satisfied with that, too, but it still beats something like an Awesome being flat out the best choice under all circumstances.

The problem with a fast 'Mech trying to get get into the rear of a parked Awesome is that the fast 'Mech still needs to keep moving, or it is instantly turned into scrap metal, which also increases its own To Hit modifiers. The Awesome is standing still, and doing so in heavy forests, where it gives any attackers a flat +2 modifier anyway. It isn't all that easy to hit, either, and if it sets its mind to it, that lighter 'Mech won't last long.

And yes, assigning sub-optimal 'Mechs would likely go a long way to solve this issue.

[Erloas]

What about the scenario I lined out? Archer sporting a ton of Thunder ammunition. At maximum range, even if he walks backwards, he's hitting his target (the ground underneath the Atlas) on a 5 (that's 83.3% accuracy) assuming a gunnery skill of 4. If his skill is 3, he has a 91.7% chance to hit. Skill 3 and not moving puts it up to anything but snakeeyes hitting. The Atlas doesn't take any damage until it moves, but then he's guaranteed to take 40 to his legs (unless the rules for mines have changed since I last played with them).

Well then you have just changed the scenario completely and everything would need to be redefined. Since thunder ammo isn't available in 3025 you are also going to upgrade the Atlas to a newer model too. As a side, I didn't see any base Archer that had thunder ammo on them. I also don't yet use much of the specialty ammo to know their rules and restrictions.
When you upgrade the Atlas out of 3025 you have Atlases with ER LLs, Gauss Rifles and a few other things that completely negate the range advantage the Archer has. Depending on the rules for mines they shouldn't be that hard to avoid, and I know they can be removed with fire. Sure forcing the Atlas to avoid them means the Archer can dictate range a bit more, but like I mentioned, the Archer also looses the range advantage with newer model Atlases.

[mangosta71]

Nothing comes standard with Thunder ammunition. But since it's just switching the ammunition, it can easily be loaded without modifying the Archer. The other specialty types of ammunition such as armor piercing SRMs and (my favorite) Swarm LRMs aren't available until later, but I'm pretty sure Thunder LRMs are available with 3025 tech.

[Erloas]

I'm not really sure on availability date on Thunder ammo. The Sarna.net wiki says they were first used in 2621, but it is very possible it was one of those "lost" advancements that disappeared during the succession wars that reappeared after the clan invasion.

I pretty much define 3025 as the basic rules, and all of the advanced rules after that. I don't know if that is entirely accurate though. All of the specialty ammo is in the advanced (tournament) rules. I know there are some options from pre-Succession wars that never seem to show up in 3025. So the question of thunder ammo in 3025 is unclear to me. I won't be home for 5-6 hours to consult my books and the Solaris program doesn't have the option for Thunder ammo though it does have some other ammo types, all of which are not available in 3025.

Either way though I think the biggest issue with Thunder ammo is that it requires the Atlas to go through specific hexes to be of any use. If the Archer lacks any real direct threat to the Atlas, because none of his missile are direct fire, then he does nothing to force the Atlas to close range. The Atlas still has his LRM-15, which isn't going to kill the Archer for sure, but it will put some dents in it. Once the Archer runs out of Thunder ammo he has to close with the Atlas, something he clearly can't do. Even if he splits normal ammo and Thunder ammo, its clear he simply doesn't have the firepower to bring down the Atlas with LRMs alone. If only half of the ammo is thunder and the other half is normal the Atlas is going to be in good shape by the time the Archer is out of normal ammo. The Atlas can then take its time to clear the mine fields of the Thunder rounds before closing. It gives the Archer plenty of time to run, but it also means the Archer can never win.

The Atlas drive would have to be a fool to simply run through hex after hex of Thunder ammo trying to catch the Archer. It simple doesn't make sense for the Atlas to do that when the Archer doesn't have the direct fire needed to force him too.
If you had a 'Mech with thunder ammo and some PPCs or maybe LLs to force the Atlas to not be able to stay back and run them out of ammo then it is possible.

[mangosta71]

I'm almost positive that moving out of the hex triggers them if they landed in the hex during the previous turn. And since we were discussing the Atlas driver using his lasers to start fires for a smokescreen, I assume that other optional rules are allowed.

[Winterwind]

I'm at home now, so I looked it up. The rules for Thunder ammo (p.150, though my rule book is German, so it might vary for you) state that a unit which is in a hex in the same round when the attack with Thunder ammo on that hex occurs can not be damaged when leaving that hex, because the pilot (or crew) of that unit can precisely observe where the missile deploys the mines, so he can evade this area easily.

[Erloas]

I'm almost positive that moving out of the hex triggers them if they landed in the hex during the previous turn. And since we were discussing the Atlas driver using his lasers to start fires for a smokescreen, I assume that other optional rules are allowed.

Well for the first part, like I said, I would have to check my rulebook on how they work, but that doesn't sound right to me. Because if that were the case it would basically be meaning that thunder ammo causes the weapon to treat all targets as if they had no movement mod and were also immobile. It would also mean that all hits are focused on just 1 of 2 hit locations. Why would you ever get any other type of ammo if Thunder could be used to hit on pretty much a 1-2 since targeting a hex gets the -4 immobile target mod and of course a hex doesn't move.

You would always be able to shoot the hex and they would have no option but to trigger the mines, it just doesn't seem like a reasonable way for the ammo to work to me.

As for the second part, using alternative rules like starting fires is different then having weapons in an era where they weren't available. None of the tables on the battletech site happen to have the thunder availability dates on them, though they are listed as very rare in terms of availability in general.

[Krrth]

I've been checking the web, but the only t hing I could find on Thunder ammo lists them as being Lostech in 3015 (http://www.mektek.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=140443).


Make of it what you will.

[Swordguy]

Thunder mines go off when a unit enters the hex. Under no circumstances do they go off when a unit leaves a mined hex (which would happen if you dropped Thunders into the hex the target was standing in that fire phase). However, if you drop Thunder-Augmented missiles into the hex in which the target is standing, all six hexes around that hex are ALSO mined. Meaning that as soon as the Mech walks or runs into any adjacent hex, it'll take mine damage.

Which is yet ANOTHER great use for Jump Jets...

[mangosta71]

However, if you drop Thunder-Augmented missiles into the hex in which the target is standing, all six hexes around that hex are ALSO mined. Meaning that as soon as the Mech walks or runs into any adjacent hex, it'll take mine damage.

Ah, those must be what I was thinking of. It's been a long time since I played the board game.

[Winterwind]

However, if you drop Thunder-Augmented missiles into the hex in which the target is standing, all six hexes around that hex are ALSO mined. Meaning that as soon as the Mech walks or runs into any adjacent hex, it'll take mine damage.Those are not in the core rulebook though, are they? At least, I cannot find any mention of them here... :smallconfused:

[Swordguy]

Those are not in the core rulebook though, are they? At least, I cannot find any mention of them here... :smallconfused:

No minelaying implements or devices are in the BT Total Warfare Tournament-level Rules Set. Not preset mines, not Thunder missiles, not T-Augs. If you're using mines, you're automatically using Tactical Operations Rules - which means that if you're using Thunders, you can always use T-Augs.

[Winterwind]

No minelaying implements or devices are in the BT Total Warfare Tournament-level Rules Set. Not preset mines, not Thunder missiles, not T-Augs. If you're using mines, you're automatically using Tactical Operations Rules - which means that if you're using Thunders, you can always use T-Augs....so where do the rulebooks sold with that Classic BattleTech starter set that came out about five years ago fit in? Because those most definitely do contain Thunder missiles (no T-Augs, as far as I can tell though).

[Erloas]

The Total Warfare rules are the standard tournament level rules. The starter set rules are a basic subset of those rules, pretty much just without any equipment past 3025. It also doesn't have rules for anything except 'Mechs, I don't think it has vehicles and I'm virtually positive it doesn't have VTOLs, infantry, aerospace, etc.

Tactical Operations is an advanced level rule book. All advanced level rule book rules are optional at the discretion of the players.

[Winterwind]

Must be a different starter set we are talking about, because this rule book (which comes from a starter set) contains infantry, tanks, VTOLs, Clan tech and plenty of new IS tech (ca. 3060, I think).

[Erloas]

Must be a different starter set we are talking about, because this rule book (which comes from a starter set) contains infantry, tanks, VTOLs, Clan tech and plenty of new IS tech (ca. 3060, I think).

It must be, because as I was thinking back on your first comment I remembered that you said it was on page 150. The introductory rulebook only has 65 pages total.

I'm wondering, do you have the normal Introductory Box Set which contained some background, the intro rules, a few small map sheets and 24 plastic 'Mechs?
It sounds like you have Total Warfare (though I'm not sure how the name may have changed in translation) which doesn't come in the starter box. The only box set they sell in the USA is the Introductory Box Set, it could be you got a box set someone else compiled to sell as a starter box.

Total Warfare came out in 2006 and the Intro Box came out in 2007. So depending on the time frame you got it it could have been an older box, I don't know if they had a different started box at one point.

[Winterwind]

The box I got came out in 2004 (in Germany, so maybe 2003 already overseas), so that's neither of them.

It featured two map sheets, a 184 page core rule book (that covered everything that was considered Tech Level 2 at the time, as far as I can tell), a second, smaller one with quick start rules and some background, but no plastic 'Mechs, just cardboard tokens.

If I remember correctly, it was pretty much considered a revival of Classic BattleTech when it was printed, after CBT's future had looked somewhat dim for quite some time.

[Swordguy]

The box I got came out in 2004 (in Germany, so maybe 2003 already overseas), so that's neither of them.

It featured two map sheets, a 184 page core rule book (that covered everything that was considered Tech Level 2 at the time, as far as I can tell), a second, smaller one with quick start rules and some background, but no plastic 'Mechs, just cardboard tokens.

If I remember correctly, it was pretty much considered a revival of Classic BattleTech when it was printed, after CBT's future had looked somewhat dim for quite some time.


I'll bet it's the 4th edition Boxed Set. Does it have an Atlas on the cover?

[Fax Celestis]

OH GOD I JUST SAW THIS THREAD

SOMEONE

ANYONE

http://cache1.bigcartel.com/product_images/2655797/sci-five-tshirt1.jpg

DON'T LEAVE ME HANGIN'

[Winterwind]

I'll bet it's the 4th edition Boxed Set. Does it have an Atlas on the cover?A Mad Cat on the left side, an Atlas on the right side, standing against each other (gee, what kind of stupid Mad Cat pilot gets into that kind of situation?), and some lighter humanoid 'Mech I can't quite identify (Commando, maybe? Doesn't look quite right...).
Also, I misremembered, the quick start rules and the background info are actually two seperate booklets.

Googled for the picture, here it is (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51157EPY3ML._SL500_AA240_.jpg).

EDIT: Sci-five, Fax! :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

With Thunder LRM's, you halve your regular ammo, which rather negates the purpose of the mining, which is to keep the Atlas from closing, because you'll run out of ammo on your regular LRM's long before the Atlas's armor is more than scratched.

Furthermore, you can simply start firing into the hexes in front of you to destroy the mines, then walk safely, thus negating any damage taken from said mines.

In other words, you simply screw yourself harder.

[Erloas]

I just checked the new rules for Thunder, they are in Tactical Operations and not Total Warfare so they no longer exist in normal tournement play. Even if you wanted to use them, the rule Winterwind used is still correct, you don't take damage for leaving a minefield, you only take damage for entering it.

Also a mine field delievered via missle has a max strength of 20, so you can't stack more then that in any hex. Also a minefield doesn't automatically go off, for a 20 point minefield it goes off on an 8+ (so about 42% of the time).

Although it isn't 100% clear it also seems like thunder ammo uses the same damage distribution as normal missiles, ie roll on the cluster table and assign 5 point blocks. If that is the case the Atlas can actually run through a fair number of minefields before it starts going internal on the legs, since they have 41 points of armor each. With a 40% chance of a minefield going off and an average of about 8 points to a leg a trip it would be about 12 minefields before it goes internal on the legs.

Also, I looked up the availability on them and while they were introduced in 2620 they were lost to the IS in 2840 and didn't reappear until 3052. So they aren't even on option for 3025.

[Erloas]

Eh... its a double post but its been most of a day since the last post anyway.

If we gave the Archer Thunder ammo for his LRMs (which it seems isn't really a highly effective option anyway, and not available for our time period) we could also do the same for the Atlas. At which point he can shoot it a hex behind the Archer so if the Archer walks straight back to keep his distance he hits a minefield too. So then the Archer either takes his changes with the minefield or lets the Atlas catch up a lot faster. The Archer has about half the armor on its legs that the Atlas does so the Archer couldn't take nearly as many trips through the field before going internal on a leg.

[mangosta71]

Since I was remembering a number of things about the mines incorrectly, it's not really relevant, but...

Given my earlier assumptions about mines, and the configurations of the Mechs I was using, the Archer would have taken half as much damage as the Atlas from mines. Assume the Archer is backing away. Round 1, range is 21 hexes, both lay minefields. Round 2, Atlas takes 40, Archer takes 20. Range is 20 hexes. Round 3, Atlas takes another 40, Archer takes 20, bringing totals to 80 and 40. At this point, the Atlas, having 41 points or armor per leg, is far more likely to have taken internal damage to one of his legs than the Archer (I forget exactly how much armor it carries, but it's either the maximum for its tonnage or close to it. If not 28 points per leg, it's not less than 25). Combat round, more mines, range is 19 (assuming neither Mech has been slowed). Round 4, Atlas either stands still or takes 40 more damage and loses a leg. Either way, it's not moving. Archer takes another 20, which breaches his armor on one or both legs. If his speed isn't reduced by 2 or more, the range opens up to 22 hexes. He can now circle around the outside of LRM range until he's shooting at the Atlas from behind. As the LRM launcher is mounted in the torso, the Atlas has to turn to bring it to bear, and turning in the hex triggers the mines, putting him on the ground helpless. Feel free to correct me if necessary, but I seem to recall that the mines laid by Thunders, unlike other mines, remain active even after detonating. The Atlas falling would set them off a second time.

Anyhoo, that was my line of reasoning. I also don't remember anything about Thunder LRMs only getting half as many shots per ton of ammo.


A Mad Cat on the left side, an Atlas on the right side, standing against each other (gee, what kind of stupid Mad Cat pilot gets into that kind of situation?), and some lighter humanoid 'Mech I can't quite identify (Commando, maybe? Doesn't look quite right...).

Considering that a Timber Wolf outguns an Atlas at all ranges, and doesn't have a minimum range for his missiles? It's hard to tell in that picture as it gets grainy when I try to magnify it, but it looks like the 3050 version of the Atlas, so his Gauss rifle has a minimum range as well. A Timber Wolf has the armor to soak the punishment an Atlas can dish out for quite a while. And if it's the Timber Wolf D (I think, the one with ERPPCs and lots of Streak SRMs), he'll rip the Atlas apart at point-blank.

[Erloas]

Since I was remembering a number of things about the mines incorrectly, it's not really relevant, but...

...

Anyhoo, that was my line of reasoning. I also don't remember anything about Thunder LRMs only getting half as many shots per ton of ammo.

Its only the advanced thunder rounds that give half ammo, not the regulars. I'm not 100% sure on the damage from minefields yet, so the Atlas might be taking more from them then I assumed. What is clear, and was the case in the previous edition as well as the new (as Winterwind told us) is that you can leave a hex without setting them off. Which only makes sense from a balance standpoint otherwise you basically make them way too powerful because they would be guaranteed to almost always hit regardless of anything at all the opponent did.
With that being the case, even if a minefield could do 40 damage to a leg (or both legs) on an Atlas it wouldn't make a difference because the Archer doesn't have the firepower to force the Atlas to pursue it though the minefields. Because the Atlas can take all the remaining LRM fire from the Archer (especially since he had to give up half or at least a quarter of his ammo for those thunders) without really going below half armor, in which case the Archer either has to close into the Atlas's primary range (they have the same range at that point) or run.



Considering that a Timber Wolf outguns an Atlas at all ranges, and doesn't have a minimum range for his missiles? It's hard to tell in that picture as it gets grainy when I try to magnify it, but it looks like the 3050 version of the Atlas, so his Gauss rifle has a minimum range as well. A Timber Wolf has the armor to soak the punishment an Atlas can dish out for quite a while. And if it's the Timber Wolf D (I think, the one with ERPPCs and lots of Streak SRMs), he'll rip the Atlas apart at point-blank.

I would be up for another theory run if we wanted to pick some specific 'Mechs. But I think thats a fight thats going to be limped away from even by the victor.

Sure the Timber Wolf has the speed advantage, but the Atlas can take 2 PPCs to any location with a few points left before going internal (3 for CT). The Timber Wolf can't take 2 gauss shots to anything but the CT, and the arms and R/L Torso can't take an AC20 and a 5 point cluster before its internal/out of armor (depending which Atlas we are talking about). Of course if it were the AC/20 Atlas the Timber Wolf could easily stay out of his effective range, then it would depend entirely on where they started, because if they started toe to toe the Timber Wolf would be hurting before he put much distance between them. I'm going with the D Timber Wolf you mentioned and the K Atlas.

The Timber Wolf will also heat up any turn it moves and fires both PPCs, not even counter any other weapon. Being inside minimum of the Gauss is going to be hard since its min is 2 and that will come down to initiative every round, and if they are toe to toe the Atlas pilot will have no qualms about kicking a let off the Timber Wolf, a clan pilot wouldn't resort to that sort of thing.
With them both having XL engines and both having ammo to hit things are probably going to end quickly once the armor is low.

Both have heat issues, but the Timber Wolf has to give up one of his primary weapons to keep his heat down, the Atlas can use a Gauss and an ERLL or LRM20 every turn without problems. With only 2 of the 4 Streak-SRM6s facing forward the Timber Wolf is going to have a very hard time breaking through the Atlas with that, hes going to have to hope for CT(crit) or head shots) Once the armor is down they work great, but hes going to have to land an average of 8 PPC shots before he stacks 2 to a single location before those streaks can start breaking through armor. Of course how bad that will be for the Atlas will depend on which location that is. Hits to the arms aren't going to be taking much away from the Atlas, but they will be for the Timber Wolf. Both are equally at risk for shots legs and CT. The Timber Wolf has the advantage to shots to the R/L torso, but there is still ammo to hit there.

There is a 16.7% chance to hit CT, a 13.9% chance to hit R/L T, 11.1% chance to hit R/L leg, and a 13.9% chance to hit R/L arm, and of course the same 2.8% chance of hitting Head or CT(possible crit). So its going to take a fair amount of shooting to stack a huge amount on one location. The Atlas takes much higher percentages of the Timber Wolf out with each shot so he can stack different types of weapons to get through the Timber Wolf, where as the SRMs take a lot more stacking before they start to really do much. The Atlas also has an anti-missile system.

In theory (based on BV) the Timber Wolf should win most of the time, having about a 25% higher BV. Its going to be a bloody battle either way though.

[mangosta71]

With them both having XL engines and both having ammo to hit things are probably going to end quickly once the armor is low.

Yes, but the essential difference here is that the Timber Wolf can survive an ammo explosion. I completely agree that it will get bloody if they both charge into melee range. But, assuming that armor is breached at the same time on both Mechs, the Atlas will go down first. The Timber Wolf packs more firepower, the Atlas has a bit more armor, so it's not an unreasonable assumption. Of course, any standard configuration of Timber Wolf also outranges the Atlas and he can walk backwards as fast as the Atlas can run forward. Using a D, the range difference is only 1 hex, but the Timber Wolf can maintain that indefinitely and doesn't have to worry about running out of ammunition. He'll generate 1 point of heat if he fires both PPCs, so it comes out as a 4-1 cycle to avoid losing speed to heat.

You also mentioned the difference in tactics that the pilots would find acceptable, which is a valid point. I would mention that the average Clan pilot has better gunnery and piloting skills than the average IS pilot (3/4 and 4/5 respectively). At maximum range, the Timber Wolf is hitting on a 10 or higher, so 1 out of 6 shots will hit. Slow kill, but guaranteed and he walks away without a scratch.

[Erloas]

Actually the Timber Wolf would not survive an ammo explosion either, sure with a clan XL it only has 2 slots in the side torso but it doesn't have CASE so its a moot point.

The biggest difference is that a gauss rifle has 7 locations to hit with a critical in one torso and 3 ammo in the other. The Timber Wolf only has 1 in one torso and 2 in the other.

The thing about the range difference between the ERPPC and the gauss is that it is fairly minor because its not a big enough difference to really stay in that 1 hex. Any time the Atlas wins initiative he can either back out of range of the Timber Wolf or make sure he is in range of his weapons too.
Also so long as we are talking about a real battleground there is going to be turning needed so its not like you can always hold that same distance, as well as hills and trees. It would be easy enough for either pilot to find someplace that they can't be shot at (or at least not without shooting through 2 woods) to either force the other to close distance or end up in a stalemate.

The clan pilot not using physical combat might be a point just to ignore because other then that I was assuming equally skilled pilots. Because putting a noticeable better pilot into two identical 'Mechs will skew the results a lot, let alone two vastly different 'Mechs.

I really didn't have too much doubt about the Timber Wolf winning, I just didn't think it would be a pretty win. Like I had said, it takes 8 hits with the PPCs on average before you start staking locations to break through armor, but 8 shots is only about 6-8 rounds. At which point the Streak SRM-6s can start doing their thing.

I had decided to test this in MegaMek yesterday. Bots aren't exactly the best players but at least they were equally bad. I ran 19 games, but I would toss out one because I forgot to set the pilots the same. For most of the matches I used two "battletech" maps side by side (they have a little water and a spread of hills and trees, nothing fancy but some cover to use). There were some games they ran straight at each other and some others were they snipped for the first 8-10 rounds. I didn't think to start any where they were right beside each other.

I used 4/5 pilots for about 12 of the matches and 3/4 pilots for the last 7ish.
I would also throw out 3-4 matches that ended in turn 1-2 from the very first roll being a head shot for 15 points. There were I think 6 rounds that ended in head shots, the Timber Wolf got all but 1, 5 of them were rounds 1-5, one of them didn't happen until round 23 (and surprisingly neither of the 'Mechs had taken much damage prior to that either).
Of course with 2 weapons that can do a head shot compared to 1, you would expect the Timber Wolf to end up with about twice as many but it ended up with closer to 4-5 times as many.

The Atlas only ended up winning 1-2 non head shot matches. It was fairly surprising that one of the matches it had taken very little damage total, I don't think any location was less then 17 points of armor. Almost every match lasted between 12-14 rounds (with the exception of the aforementioned head shots, and one where the two bots got stuck and neither would move for 40 rounds before I had to kill the program, I didn't count that one in the 19)

There were a few cases where the Timber Wolf came out without taking too much damage, with no locations less then 10. Most matches the Timber Wolf lost at least 1 arm, and was usually internal on one torso. Neither 'Mech every lost a leg, but a few matches they were close. One time the Timber Wolf managed to win with all 3 torso locations internal and a hit gyro.
The Atlas was really bad at rolling crits, even when it got internal in the torso of the Timber Wolf it almost never hit any crits. The Atlas fell to a gauss rifle explosion about 4-5 times.

I was a bit surprised by the results. I figured the Timber Wolf would win more often then not, but some of them were a lot more decisive then I would have expected. I didn't look through the log files all that close, just the end results and maybe the last 1-2 rounds. Of course bots aren't the best judge for this sort of thing because I don't think they ever really pushed either 'Mech in terms of heat and I saw more then a few times where they would run around back and forth not improving their defensive mod but running anyway (running back and forth between 2 wooded hexes). I don't know if that would have benefited one 'Mech design over another, but it very well could have.

As a side note, I was looking through the TRO:3050 at the Atlas and I noticed the name of one of the "Notable MechWarriors" and it was the name of the guy I first started playing Battletech with down in Phoenix. He is also a playtester for them, his name is in the front of credits for all of the main rulebooks.

[Winterwind]

Actually the Timber Wolf would not survive an ammo explosion either, sure with a clan XL it only has 2 slots in the side torso but it doesn't have CASE so its a moot point.It does. Clan 'Mechs automatically have CASE in any location carrying ammo, without any tonnage or crit slot cost.

[mangosta71]

It does. Clan 'Mechs automatically have CASE in any location carrying ammo, without any tonnage or crit slot cost.

Yeah, it's pretty hot. Especially since that also applies to arm locations, where IS Mechs can't even carry CASE.


The biggest difference is that a gauss rifle has 7 locations to hit with a critical in one torso and 3 ammo in the other. The Timber Wolf only has 1 in one torso and 2 in the other.

The thing about the range difference between the ERPPC and the gauss is that it is fairly minor because its not a big enough difference to really stay in that 1 hex. Any time the Atlas wins initiative he can either back out of range of the Timber Wolf or make sure he is in range of his weapons too.
Also so long as we are talking about a real battleground there is going to be turning needed so its not like you can always hold that same distance, as well as hills and trees. It would be easy enough for either pilot to find someplace that they can't be shot at (or at least not without shooting through 2 woods) to either force the other to close distance or end up in a stalemate.

I was assuming a flat featureless plain so neither side would have a cover advantage, as we did for the Atlas vs Archer experiment. And in that case, any time the Timber Wolf loses initiative he can slide to a spot that's out of range of the Atlas even if he closes at maximum speed. Sure, he's under no obligation to do so, and it would be foolish to just charge straight ahead. But he also needs to not get too far away if he wants to have any hope of ever returning fire. So as soon as the Timber Wolf wins initiative he can close to his maximum range again. Best case scenario, the Atlas retreats before taking too much damage.


I was assuming equally skilled pilots. Because putting a noticeable better pilot into two identical 'Mechs will skew the results a lot, let alone two vastly different 'Mechs.

I'm very aware of that. However, the reality of the BT universe is that Clan pilots, by and large, have superior skill compared to their IS counterparts. The difference widens if you use one of the early optional rules that allows you to improve one score by one point for each four kills a pilot gets, as the Clan pilot will tend to get more kills more quickly by virtue of starting with superior skills, driving a superior machine, and having more targets.


I really didn't have too much doubt about the Timber Wolf winning, I just didn't think it would be a pretty win. Like I had said, it takes 8 hits with the PPCs on average before you start staking locations to break through armor, but 8 shots is only about 6-8 rounds. At which point the Streak SRM-6s can start doing their thing.

I had decided to test this in MegaMek yesterday. Bots aren't exactly the best players but at least they were equally bad. I ran 19 games, but I would toss out one because I forgot to set the pilots the same. For most of the matches I used two "battletech" maps side by side (they have a little water and a spread of hills and trees, nothing fancy but some cover to use). There were some games they ran straight at each other and some others were they snipped for the first 8-10 rounds. I didn't think to start any where they were right beside each other.

I used 4/5 pilots for about 12 of the matches and 3/4 pilots for the last 7ish.
I would also throw out 3-4 matches that ended in turn 1-2 from the very first roll being a head shot for 15 points. There were I think 6 rounds that ended in head shots, the Timber Wolf got all but 1, 5 of them were rounds 1-5, one of them didn't happen until round 23 (and surprisingly neither of the 'Mechs had taken much damage prior to that either).
Of course with 2 weapons that can do a head shot compared to 1, you would expect the Timber Wolf to end up with about twice as many but it ended up with closer to 4-5 times as many.

The Atlas only ended up winning 1-2 non head shot matches. It was fairly surprising that one of the matches it had taken very little damage total, I don't think any location was less then 17 points of armor. Almost every match lasted between 12-14 rounds (with the exception of the aforementioned head shots, and one where the two bots got stuck and neither would move for 40 rounds before I had to kill the program, I didn't count that one in the 19)

There were a few cases where the Timber Wolf came out without taking too much damage, with no locations less then 10. Most matches the Timber Wolf lost at least 1 arm, and was usually internal on one torso. Neither 'Mech every lost a leg, but a few matches they were close. One time the Timber Wolf managed to win with all 3 torso locations internal and a hit gyro.
The Atlas was really bad at rolling crits, even when it got internal in the torso of the Timber Wolf it almost never hit any crits. The Atlas fell to a gauss rifle explosion about 4-5 times.

I was a bit surprised by the results. I figured the Timber Wolf would win more often then not, but some of them were a lot more decisive then I would have expected. I didn't look through the log files all that close, just the end results and maybe the last 1-2 rounds. Of course bots aren't the best judge for this sort of thing because I don't think they ever really pushed either 'Mech in terms of heat and I saw more then a few times where they would run around back and forth not improving their defensive mod but running anyway (running back and forth between 2 wooded hexes). I don't know if that would have benefited one 'Mech design over another, but it very well could have.

I can't say that I find your results surprising. The Timber Wolf is one of the best designs in the universe, and the D configuration has always been my personal favorite. Only Mech I'd take over it is a Warhawk with the ERPPCs swapped out for large pulse lasers. So I was probably biased going in. :smalltongue:


As a side note, I was looking through the TRO:3050 at the Atlas and I noticed the name of one of the "Notable MechWarriors" and it was the name of the guy I first started playing Battletech with down in Phoenix. He is also a playtester for them, his name is in the front of credits for all of the main rulebooks.

Cool.