The IFCC: devils or demons?

[petersohn]

This last update shows us that they are definitely Chaotic. This explains their association with Sabine, who is apparently a succubus. But then, why do they work with a Lawful devil as Quarr?

[Porthos]

This last update shows us that they are definitely Chaotic. This explains their association with Sabine, who is apparently a succubus. But then, why do they work with a Lawful devil as Quarr?

One is a demon (presumably CE).
One is a devil (presumably LE).
And one is a Yugoloth (presumably NE)*.

Think of them as Infernal Hippies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html) who think that the Blood War is a gigantic waste of time and resources. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) :smallamused:

* No I am not getting into which is which. Enough electrons have already died over that debate, IMO. :smalltongue:

[mistformsquirrl]

The IFCC is representative of all fiends - specifically:

Devils
Demons (Director Lee I believe)
and Daemons

In other words - they represent all 3 evil alignments and the 3 major factions of fiends. (Well ok, Daemons personally only know of from Warhammer; but in this universe they seem to be on-par with the other two)

I'll see if I can find the strip that explains their goals.

*edit*

Ninja'd by a guy with a ninja avatar <O.@>

[derfenrirwolv]

Lee (lawfull evil) Is a devil. I believe he's yellow

Nero is a (neutral evil) Is a daemon. I beleive he's purple

Cedric (Chaotic Evil) is a demon. I beleive he's the orange one.


There's nothing unlawfull about causing your enemies to fight with one another. Its perfectly valid strategy to soften them up so you can kill them latter.

[Murdim]

Lee (lawfull evil) Is a devil. I believe he's yellow

Nero is a (neutral evil) Is a daemon. I beleive he's purple

Cedric (Chaotic Evil) is a demon. I beleive he's the orange one.Isn't Lee the Chaotic one (=> Demon), with the crazy sorcerer soul and the Succubi servants ?

... well, actually nevermind. I don't want to start a new thread on this subject.

[Porthos]

Lee (lawfull evil) Is a devil. I believe he's yellow

Nero is a (neutral evil) Is a daemon. I beleive he's purple

Cedric (Chaotic Evil) is a demon. I beleive he's the orange one.


There's nothing unlawfull about causing your enemies to fight with one another. Its perfectly valid strategy to soften them up so you can kill them latter.

<Didn't want to kill more electrons, but here we go again :smalltongue:>

The Name = Alignment doesn't work out because the Orange Fiend is a Devil (or at least went to Devil School and hung out with Devils when he was in college), but the Yellow Fiend is specifally named as Director Lee.

Worse, the Yellow Fiend controls the very CE Jephton the Unholy, which casts further doubt on the Name = Alignment theory.

Plus the Orange Fiend controlled the LE (at least imo) Ganonron, which leads supporting evidence to the above conclusion about Devil College.

Yes there are work arounds for this. But none of them are simple or elegant.

So I am forced to conclude that the names were a delibrate red herring.

</Didn't want to kill more electrons, but here we go again :smalltongue:>

[Thanatosia]

Is Daemon just another word for Yugoloth or are they pretty much the same thing, or are Yoggoloths just the primary subset of Daemons?

[FeAnPi]

As I remember, daemon is used for yugoloth in unofficial sources because the very word "yugoloth" is intellectual property of the WotC.

And nobody want the lawyers to take one of the IFCC away.

[Cleverdan22]

And nobody want the lawyers to take one of the IFCC away.

Except for maybe V.

However, for OP's question. Different alignments of evil. Devil, demon, daemon.

[Lemarc]

As I remember, daemon is used for yugoloth in unofficial sources because the very word "yugoloth" is intellectual property of the WotC.

And nobody want the lawyers to take one of the IFCC away.

The original terms for the three classes of fiends were devils, demons, and daemons. In second edition, these terms were changed to baatezu, tanar'ri and yugoloths, respectively, possibly because of criticism from the "D&D is Satanism" lobby and to avoid ambiguity. In 3rd edition, devils and daemons were once again referred to that way in the monster manuals, with baatezu and tanar'ri being a subset of each. Yugoloths remained yugoloths, since daemon is a homophone of demon and it would just be confusing.

[FeAnPi]

Ah, allright.

But as I remember in some Green Ronin works I found the word "daemon" used for yugoloths.
So it is still used as the name of the NE fiends.

[yanmaodao]

Is Daemon just another word for Yugoloth or are they pretty much the same thing, or are Yoggoloths just the primary subset of Daemons?

Daemon = Yugoloth. When 2nd edition came out, the creature types "devils", "demons", and "daemons" were taken out and replaced with longer, goofier names, and your ability to play traditionally evil races as a PC (drow, orc, etc.) was curtailed. This was done to appease the usual ignorant rubes who started a moral panic about the supposed promulgation of Satanism, witchcraft, the occult, yada yada yada in D&D.

In 3rd edition, all the old names and races were brought back, but "daemons" remained "yugoloths", perhaps because the writers felt "daemon" sounded too close to "demon". Personally, I don't like either name.

EDIT: ninjitsu'd

[DaveMcW]

So I am forced to conclude that the names were a delibrate red herring.

A couple alternate explanations:

1. Rich made a mistake, and Orange should be talking about Cedrick in #637.

2. The fiends were given ironic names before the IFCC was formed. What would Lee's chaotic associates call a hippie who is willing to work with devils to end the blood war? "Lawful Evil" of course!

[thepsyker]

One is a demon (presumably CE).
One is a devil (presumably LE).
And one is a Yugoloth (presumably NE)*.

Think of them as Infernal Hippies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html) who think that the Blood War is a gigantic waste of time and resources. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) :smallamused:

* No I am not getting into which is which. Enough electrons have already died over that debate, IMO. :smalltongue:You know, looking at those links I just got that "What is the Blood Wars good for?" the "Good gods" joke. I mean I caught the reference when I first read the strip, but not the joke behind it. God, I feel dense.

[Forbiddenwar]

You know, looking at those links I just got that "What is the Blood Wars good for?" the "Good gods" joke. I mean I caught the reference when I first read the strip, but not the joke behind it. God, I feel dense.

And to think, it only took me the third time reading the strip to get the joke.:smallsigh:

[Zevox]

You know, looking at those links I just got that "What is the Blood Wars good for?" the "Good gods" joke. I mean I caught the reference when I first read the strip, but not the joke behind it. God, I feel dense.
Care to explain it, then? I never thought there was some specific reference or joke to it, it just seemed a general statement that the Blood War is benefiting only the good-aligned, not the fiends involved in it...

Zevox

[thepsyker]

Care to explain it, then? I never thought there was some specific reference or joke to it, it just seemed a general statement that the Blood War is benefiting only the good-aligned, not the fiends involved in it...

ZevoxIts a reference to the song "War" a, I believe, Vietnam era protest song. It includes the lyrics "War what is it good for?" and "Good god, y'all," which are what is being referenced. What I just caught as the joke was the bit you mentioned.

[Zevox]

Its a reference to the song "War" a, I believe, Vietnam era protest song. It includes the lyrics "War what is it good for?" and "Good god, y'all," which are what is being referenced. What I just caught as the joke was the bit you mentioned.
Well, that certainly explains why I didn't get the reference. I can count the number of Vietnam era protest songs I've heard on one hand. Without moving any fingers. Guess it only seems like a joke if you get the reference, then.

Zevox

[Morquard]

Well I got the reference to the song back then, but I always assumed the "Good gods" from purple guy was simply an equivalent to "Oh, great god, I thought we had buried that stupid idea"

[Rhydeble]

Its a reference to the song "War" a, I believe, Vietnam era protest song. It includes the lyrics "War what is it good for?" and "Good god, y'all," which are what is being referenced. What I just caught as the joke was the bit you mentioned.

the reference is to the song, while the joke is, that the blood war is kind of a pretty neat deal for all the good gods (because it stops the fiends from building angelblood watercoolers)

[thepsyker]

the reference is to the song, while the joke is, that the blood war is kind of a pretty neat deal for all the good gods (because it stops the fiends from building angelblood watercoolers)Yeah, that the second line was a reference to the Good gods benefiting from the Blood Wars was the bit I just got.

[slayerx]

Well, that certainly explains why I didn't get the reference. I can count the number of Vietnam era protest songs I've heard on one hand. Without moving any fingers. Guess it only seems like a joke if you get the reference, then.

Zevox

Well i think this is the Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX7V6FAoTLc)
It's a pretty famous song that your likely to have heard somewhere at some point even if you did not recognize it as a vietnam song

[thepsyker]

Well i think this is the Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX7V6FAoTLc)
It's a pretty famous song that your likely to have heard somewhere at some point even if you did not recognize it as a vietnam songYeah, that's the song.

[Porthos]

It's a pretty famous song that your likely to have heard somewhere at some point even if you did not recognize it as a vietnam song

According to Jackie Chan*, everybody knows War (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-bA9FYB8HY&feature=related). :smalltongue:

(Good God, y'all!)

* specifically @ 1:12 of the clip :smallwink:

[Nimrod's Son]

I can't believe that anyone could reach adulthood without hearing "War" at least a hundred times. It's one of the most famous songs of all time.

[Morquard]

I'm pretty sure most people heard it, but might not realise its a Vietnam protest song. (They maybe don't know the title, I certainly did not know what it was called. Maybe not even when they read that line. But they'd recognize it when they hear the song "Ah yeah thats the one you meant?!".)
Most people in US might know or understand that, but... how to say it... not everyone in the world assosiates such stuff automatically with the US vietnam trauma :)

[Elder Tsofu]

I can't believe that anyone could reach adulthood without hearing "War" at least a hundred times. It's one of the most famous songs of all time.

Never heard it before in my life. As above poster says its probably just one of the most famous songs of all time in USA.

[Nimrod's Son]

Never heard it before in my life. As above poster says its probably just one of the most famous songs of all time in USA.
That's not what he said at all. He said if you're not American you might not necessarily associate it with Vietnam. He also said most people would probably recognise it if they heard it, and he's right. In terms of popular music (in the English-speaking world at least, and certainly in many other countries too), it's about as famous and often-played as you can possibly get.

[Zevox]

Well i think this is the Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX7V6FAoTLc)
It's a pretty famous song that your likely to have heard somewhere at some point even if you did not recognize it as a vietnam song
Nope, I can honestly say that I have never heard that song before in my 22 years of life. And I live in the US, so Elder Tsofu's explanation does not apply to me.

Zevox

[MrPig]

That is odd, considering the song makes it's way into some fairly popular movies as well as having a guest appearance in Seinfeld. Not to mention having numerous covers made by other very popular artists.

War, what is it good for? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_(Edwin_Starr_song))

[Zevox]

That is odd, considering the song makes it's way into some fairly popular movies as well as having a guest appearance in Seinfeld. Not to mention having numerous covers made by other very popular artists.
Not odd at all if those are the places you'd expect to hear it. I don't watch many movies - ever since I stopped going to see cartoon ones aimed at kids I've basically only gone to see a small handful of ones that appeal to geeks, such as the Star Wars prequels, Transformers, X-Men, Iron Man, and the like; plus a few comedies like the Shrek movies. And I never watched Seinfeld. And I don't really listen to any particular musical artists/bands/whatever else you might want to call them.

Zevox

[jogiff]

Considering that their stated aim is "Destructive, unnecessary, conflict," I don't think that they're actually trying to end the blood war. That was probably just a lie they told Vaarsuvius because their real goals are even more terrifying. They all want conflict, so they might all be chaotic evil, not LE at all.

[Morquard]

They mean "unnecessary, destructive conflict between the other guys, while we wait and then kill them all after they spend all their spells for today. After that we can go back to the unnecessary, destructive conflict of the blood war to decide which evil allignment will finally triumph and rule the universe".

[Selene]

Not odd at all if those are the places you'd expect to hear it. I don't watch many movies - ever since I stopped going to see cartoon ones aimed at kids I've basically only gone to see a small handful of ones that appeal to geeks, such as the Star Wars prequels, Transformers, X-Men, Iron Man, and the like; plus a few comedies like the Shrek movies. And I never watched Seinfeld. And I don't really listen to any particular musical artists/bands/whatever else you might want to call them.

Zevox

You say you're 22? Did you see Small Soldiers? (Kirsten Dunst, Tommy Lee Jones & Dennis Leary were in it.) War was played in one of the fight scenes.

My 17 year old son knows the song and got the joke.

[Demonicbunny]

They mean "unnecessary, destructive conflict between the other guys, while we wait and then kill them all after they spend all their spells for today. After that we can go back to the unnecessary, destructive conflict of the blood war to decide which evil allignment will finally triumph and rule the universe".

Being for unnecessary, destructive conflict doesn't mean you have to be pro-bloodwar.
The bloodwar is pretty much meaningless violence, nobody is going to win.
Now the IFCC wants a bit more meaningful violence, given that they have a plan (and it involves the gates).
To sum it up "unnecessary, destructive but meaningful conflict".

[Nimrod's Son]

Not odd at all if those are the places you'd expect to hear it.
Not owning a copy of the song yourself is perfectly understandable. But what about radio, movies, television shows, television commercials, jukeboxes, even passing cars... seriously, the fact that you've never heard it at all is a little odd.

[Kish]

Considering that their stated aim is "Destructive, unnecessary, conflict," I don't think that they're actually trying to end the blood war. That was probably just a lie they told Vaarsuvius because their real goals are even more terrifying. They all want conflict, so they might all be chaotic evil, not LE at all.
They want meaningless, destructive, unnecessary conflict for their enemies specifically because, after millennia of the Blood War, they're concluded that meaningless, destructive, unnecessary conflict is the worst thing possible.

[Porthos]

Not owning a copy of the song yourself is perfectly understandable. But what about radio, movies, television shows, television commercials, jukeboxes, even passing cars... seriously, the fact that you've never heard it at all is a little odd.

On the other hand, the near ubiquity of the song did mean that he did find out about it eventually. :smallwink: This is a case of something being so universal that no matter how unique your tastes and hobbies, sooner or later, your going to run into the reference.

So just consider this an example of The Power of the Meme. :smallcool:

[Zevox]

You say you're 22? Did you see Small Soldiers? (Kirsten Dunst, Tommy Lee Jones & Dennis Leary were in it.) War was played in one of the fight scenes.
Nope, never saw it. As I said, not a prolific movie watcher. (And don't bother tossing out the names of actors with me - there are all of two I actually know, because I frankly don't care in the least about them.)


Not owning a copy of the song yourself is perfectly understandable. But what about radio,
I don't use the radio. The only time I could have heard it off that is when my parents had the radio on in the car when I was younger. And it doesn't seem like the channels they listened to would play that song.


movies,
As noted previously, I'm not a prolific movie watcher. The last time I watched a movie was when I went to see Iron Man over a year ago, and that's not an uncommon amount of time for me to go between movies (there aren't any coming out in the near future I intend to go see, either, so it may end up being a good two years between movies for me this time). If it doesn't show up in one of a few geeky or comedy films, I won't be aware of it.


television shows,
Haven't watched many of those since I stopped watching cartoons regularly. Never heard the thing on any cartoons, or on any of the three shows I currently watch regularly (The Daily Show, The Colbert Report, Mythbusters).


television commercials,
Don't pay much attention to those. Though even given that, I still don't think I've heard that song on any.


jukeboxes,
Can't remember the last time I even saw one of those. And I've certainly never used one myself.


even passing cars...
The only music that ever seems to come out of passing cars around here is rap. Which, as it is the form of music I most detest, I do my best not to listen to.


seriously, the fact that you've never heard it at all is a little odd.
I'll have to take your word for it.

Zevox

[Haarkla]

A couple alternate explanations:

1. Rich made a mistake, and Orange should be talking about Cedrick in #637.

2. The fiends were given ironic names before the IFCC was formed. What would Lee's chaotic associates call a hippie who is willing to work with devils to end the blood war? "Lawful Evil" of course!
Phrapse Director Lee is speaking about himself in the 3rd person?

[Nimrod's Son]

I don't use the radio.
But shops do. Or restaurants. Or, like, everywhere.


The only music that ever seems to come out of passing cars around here is rap. Which, as it is the form of music I most detest, I do my best not to listen to.
:smallamused: Fair enough, a good point well made as far as I'm concerned.



I'll have to take your word for it.
Hey, I'm not having a go at you. :smallsmile: But music is my "thing", y'know (everyone's got one), and to me your reasons for not ever hearing of a bonafide classic (and by that I mean not one that's merely part of the "canon", but a mind-bogglingly awesome tune to boot) is a bit like, say, hearing someone try to justify never having heard of The Lord of the Rings by saying, "Well, I never visit libraries".


Phrapse Director Lee is speaking about himself in the 3rd person?
...But then the yellow fiend immediately replies, "She has been keeping me abreast...". Also, it is the yellow fiend that gives Sabine her orders way back in #380 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). So, assuming that Rich didn't type in entirely the wrong name in #637, then the yellow fiend has to be Director Lee.

[Zevox]

But shops do. Or restaurants. Or, like, everywhere.
All of which are usually played soft enough for me to ignore. Even then, though, I still don't think I ever heard the song at such a place. I know for certain it is never played at the grocery store I work at (I have heard every song ever played on whatever station they tune into there more times than I care to remember, and most of them are annoying as hell to me...).


But music is my "thing", y'know
It's not mine, not by a long shot. Until recently I didn't even listen to any music for enjoyment purposes, and even now it's mostly music from video games and a few songs that make me nostalgic (like "Dare" and "The Touch" from the old cartoon Transformers movie). I don't even have genres of music I like, just a select few pieces.


and to me your reasons for not ever hearing of a bonafide classic (and by that I mean not one that's merely part of the "canon", but a mind-bogglingly awesome tune to boot) is a bit like, say, hearing someone try to justify never having heard of The Lord of the Rings by saying, "Well, I never visit libraries".
The main reason people nowadays have heard of The Lord of the Rings is because of the movies. Before they came out, I'd wager you could find plenty of people who had never heard of it. I was one of them, once, even though I've since become a complete Tolkien geek (to the point where I count The Silmarillion as one of my favorite books and have read it something like a half dozen times).

Zevox

[Nimrod's Son]

I don't even have genres of music I like, just a select few pieces.
That's the best way to be, I'd say. Well, except for the "select few" part. Without wanting to sound like a pretentious tit, music to me is as fundamental as breathing - and I correlate this with the way that it's essentially been around since cavemen started to bang on things with a big chunk of bone, or whatever. It's so startlingly broad I refuse to believe there's anyone who's ever existed who couldn't find plenty of music that just flat-out makes them feel good to be alive. If nostalgic cartoon themes are your thing, then cool... but I heartily recommend that you branch out. :smallsmile:



The main reason people nowadays have heard of The Lord of the Rings is because of the movies. Before they came out, I'd wager you could find plenty of people who had never heard of it.
Okay, substitute LOTR for, ooh, I don't know, Nineteen Eighty-Four then. I'm sure you see my point.

[Crazeemeel]

This last update shows us that they are definitely Chaotic. This explains their association with Sabine, who is apparently a succubus. But then, why do they work with a Lawful devil as Quarr?

Does it really matter that much. They are evil and have a goal in mind whether they be demon or devil.

[Zevox]

Without wanting to sound like a pretentious tit, music to me is as fundamental as breathing
It isn't to me. Like I said, I only recently (within the past year or two) started listening to any for pleasure at all. And even now I don't do it much.


Okay, substitute LOTR for, ooh, I don't know, Nineteen Eighty-Four then. I'm sure you see my point.
Not really, considering I only know what that is because a co-worker of mine mentioned it in a conversation at work a couple years ago.

Honestly, I doubt there are that many individual songs/books that it's truly impossible for someone not to learn about during their life when they're not contemporary. Popular contemporary music and books get talked about all the time by huge numbers of people, so I'd buy that they're truly impossible to have never heard of - think of things like Harry Potter, or Eminem, for instance. But most such things that were old even when an individual was young won't be talked about all that much anymore as he or she is growing up, so unless something revives it - like, say, the Star Wars remakes and prequel trilogy, or the Lord of the Rings movies - it won't be that hard to go without hearing about it.

Zevox

[Nimrod's Son]

Not really, considering I only know what that is because a co-worker of mine mentioned it in a conversation at work a couple years ago.
No offence, but you're starting to sound like you've had a pretty sheltered life. :smalltongue:


think of things like Harry Potter
Who? :smallwink:

[herrhauptmann]

Gah! Guys, leave him alone about the song! He doesn't need to defend himself, or his music and movie preferences. Almost a whole page of nothing but that.
Personally I had heard snippets of the song, but never the title. As stated, something where people hear it and go "OH! That song!" (Pinball wizard's another one like that for me)

ANYWAY...

Blood war is good for the Good Gods, because it ensures the various evil fiendish races stalemate themselves in a destructive unnecessary conflict.

Now the IFCC wants teh same for Order of the stick, Xykon, Saphire guard etc. The huge fight over the gates (what gates? :smalltongue:) will keep the various sides weak. Leaving the IFCC room to maneuver while the various powers that be focus on the OOTS vs Xykon.

And when one finally does triumph, there's a good chance the victor will be exhausted and weakened. Weak enough for the IFCC (or its agents) to easily swoop in there and take control of the gates. Which then puts them in possession of 2 powerful McGuffins which should allow them to finally defeat the forces of good.


The joke i don't get, and I'm sure it's been explained, what was the reference when V's familiar said "It's so beautiful, but I don't understand." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html)

[Raging Gene Ray]

The joke i don't get, and I'm sure it's been explained, what was the reference when V's familiar said "It's so beautiful, but I don't understand." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html)

That was a reference? I thought it was just to show that the Snarl was hypnotically beautiful.

Anyway, to reiterate the answer to the OP's question...the entire point of the IFCC is to get Devils, Demons, and whatever you want to call the embodiments of Neutral Evil to work together. They're a mix of all three.

Qarr doesn't work for them, either, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time to get invited to their inner-sanctum.

[Zevox]

No offence, but you're starting to sound like you've had a pretty sheltered life. :smalltongue:
*shrugs* If you say so. Though I see you didn't respond to any of the points I was trying to make in that post.


Qarr doesn't work for them, either, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time to get invited to their inner-sanctum.
Actually, he does work for them now. Or soon will. They offered him a job, remember?

Zevox

[herrhauptmann]

I figured it was a reference to something, but maybe I'm just reading too far into this.

The previous panel with Xykon flying at the raven could almost be a shot from a Superman movie: Red cape, 1 arm forward, one arm back. The more dynamic looking superman flight pose. As opposed to both arms forward, hands balled into fists, which was more common in the OLD black'n'white nick at night Superman show.

[thepsyker]

The joke i don't get, and I'm sure it's been explained, what was the reference when V's familiar said "It's so beautiful, but I don't understand." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html)I thought it was a reference of some sort to 2001, but its been a while since I've seen that movie. It might just be that the idea of staring into the snarl and seeing something beautiful strikes me as similar to the bit at the end of the movie where Dave is staring into the monolith.

[Nimrod's Son]

*shrugs* If you say so. Though I see you didn't respond to any of the points I was trying to make in that post.
And that's because, as I've already said, your reasons are fair enough. I didn't really have much more to add. I've already told you I wasn't mocking you and I've kept my tone light and even peppered my posts with smilies for good measure. There's no need to get sulky about it. :smalltongue:

If you want me to address your point directly, though, then okay: I don't think whether or not things are "contemporary" or not is relevant. You mentioned earlier that you're aged 22; so am I (very nearly 23, but hey). I've been familiar with "War" and The Lord of the Rings since I was ten at the latest and Nineteen Eighty-Four since about fourteen or so.

And, hey, I wasn't around in the days of Mahatma Gandhi (or even living in the same country) but I could still tell you a fair bit about him. :smallwink:


Gah! Guys, leave him alone about the song! He doesn't need to defend himself, or his music and movie preferences.
Sure, I quite clearly said that myself a little while back. The fact that he chooses to keep defending himself about it is puzzling, though.

I mean, to push my earlier analogy into particularly silly territory, if someone had posted that they'd never heard of mice, and everyone else was saying, "Seriously? But mice are everywhere!", then I'd expect that person to respond along the lines of, "Oh, okay. Weird how I hadn't noticed," and not, "Well, how was I supposed to know that? I don't go to Mouse Club or wherever it is that people go to see and talk about mice".

And with that, I've gone far too far and I'm going to stop. Ahem. As you were. :smallbiggrin:


That was a reference? I thought it was just to show that the Snarl was hypnotically beautiful.
I think you're right. If it was a reference, then a) I didn't catch it and b) I haven't seen anyone else mention it either.

[Zevox]

And that's because, as I've already said, those points are fair enough. I didn't really have much more to add. I've already told you I wasn't mocking you and I've kept my tone light and even peppered my posts with smilies for good measure. There's no need to get sulky about it. :smalltongue:
I wasn't getting sulky about it - I was just curious why you hadn't said anything about my last post. You didn't actually say my points there were "fair enough" - that was just to my comment about rap music from passing cars.

(Perhaps I should use more smileys myself to prevent you from thinking I'm taking this personally or anything, because I never have, but that's twice now you've implied that I've come across as such... hm...)


If you want me to address your point directly, though, then okay: I don't think whether or not things are "contemporary" or not is relevant. You mentioned earlier that you're aged 22; so am I (very nearly 23, but hey). I've been familiar with "War" and The Lord of the Rings since I was ten at the latest and Nineteen Eighty-Four since about fourteen or so.
It seems relevant to me. Like I said, I learned about The Lord of the Rings because of the first movie (which, incidentally, was also what first got me into the fantasy genre, so it's ultimately also the reason I'm here). I learned about 1984 maybe a year or two ago because of an offhand comment a co-worked made about new surveillance cameras in our store, and "War" just now.


And, hey, I wasn't around in the days of Mahatma Gandhi (or even living in the same country) but I could still tell you a fair bit about him. :smallwink:
He's kind of a major political/historical figure. That's quite a significant difference from any given song or most books. You'd likely learn at least a little about him simply in school. Not so with "War" or The Lord of the Rings (or at least, not likely with LotR).


Sure, I quite clearly said that myself a little while back. The fact that he chooses to keep defending himself about it is puzzling, though.
I'm the curious type when it comes to forum discussions. When a conversation involving me gets started like this, I tend to want to keep talking about it as long as I think there's still something of any interest to talk about. I'm not "defending" myself so much as continuing the conversation. Heck, even earlier, I tend to think of comments like I was making as simply explaining myself, not defending myself.

Zevox

[Selene]

Nope, never saw it. As I said, not a prolific movie watcher. (And don't bother tossing out the names of actors with me - there are all of two I actually know, because I frankly don't care in the least about them.)

Um yeah, ok. You don't have to get snarky about it. I was just trying to help. Sheez.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm the curious type when it comes to forum discussions. When a conversation involving me gets started like this, I tend to want to keep talking about it as long as I think there's still something of any interest to talk about.
I think we're on the same page here. We're probably driving the "Stay on topic" guys nuts, though. Manly handshake?

[Zevox]

Um yeah, ok. You don't have to get snarky about it. I was just trying to help. Sheez.
I wasn't trying to be snarky, just explain myself.... I seem to be making mistakes with presenting myself in this conversation. Guess my posts thus far don't have the constant neutral tone when read by others that they do in my head.


I think we're on the same page here. We're probably driving the "Stay on topic" guys nuts, though. Manly handshake?
I'll resist the urge to make another comment here that might spawn another off-topic discussion and just agree to let the topic go. :smallwink:

Zevox