Hilgya scratched out of the Linear Guild [Archive]

Mythlor

2009-07-09, 08:00 AM

The IFCC may of scratched Hilgya out in crayon, and this fact states their perspective that she is no longer their pawn or in the Linear Guild.

However, Hilgya is probably not dead (speculation based on her high-level clerical abilities and leaving the dungeon before it's destruction) and could be a bad assumption by the IFCC that she is not a contributing factor to the balance of power in favor of OOTS.

Belkar, in his newly obtained wisdom (LOL!), also helped another cleric of Loki to survive the thieves’ guild attack. This could also be a future contributing factor from the worshipers of Loki.

Very interesting...

Bracket

2009-07-09, 08:13 AM

They probably just figure she isn't likely to rejoin.

Of course, it's possible we may never see Hilgya again.

pflare

2009-07-09, 08:23 AM

Hilgya's scratched out because she is no longer part of the Linear Guild not because she's dead. Also she left the guild before they leaned about the gates, all she knew was the Nale wanted to defeat Elan. If she does come back it'll probably be as Durkon's love interest agian... but then again the Giant has said that when people guess the sotry he like's to change it so she probably will never be seen again.

NerfTW

2009-07-09, 08:28 AM

Zditr... zzz.... zdiramus.. Zidit... That dark elf guy:smallmad:.

That dark elf guy isn't dead either, he was hauled off by lawyers, remember?

Only YakYak is dead.

Optimystik

2009-07-09, 09:22 AM

That dark elf guy isn't dead either, he was hauled off by lawyers, remember?

A fate worse than death. :smallfrown:

Hilgya's 'scratching' simply indicates she isn't their pawn anymore. (Technically she never was; she joined the LG under Loki's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html) and was never beholden to Nale. But if anyone can fool the IFCC, it's the God of Trickery.)

I think we'll see her again. Ironically, she's a much deeper character than Durkon despite her extremely brief appearance.

Kaytara

2009-07-09, 09:26 AM

Zditr... zzz.... zdiramus.. Zidit... That dark elf guy:smallmad:.

That dark elf guy isn't dead either, he was hauled off by lawyers, remember?

Hauled off by lawyers? Truly, a fate worse than death.

EDIT: *twitch* That was the scariest ninja-ing I've ever been subjected to. :smalleek:

Optimystik

2009-07-09, 09:28 AM

EDIT: *twitch* That was the scariest ninja-ing I've ever been subjected to. :smalleek:

Boo. :smallwink:

*flexes fingers*

Scarlet Knight

2009-07-09, 09:59 AM

Poor Hilgya. Unable to live without Durkon, she leapt from a wind blown , flumpfless cliff. Or she ate one of her sandwiches by mistake...:smallamused:

Ichneumon

2009-07-09, 11:04 AM

She's not dead. I think. She said she hated Nale and left the Linear Guild. I think she will turn up later in the story again and help the OotS when they go to the dwarven lands.

rewinn

2009-07-09, 01:13 PM

...
I think we'll see her again. Ironically, she's a much deeper character than Durkon despite her extremely brief appearance.

Yep. Durkon is the only OOTS'r who hasn't undergone noticeable character growth. A comely lass of the bad-girl pursuasion might be just tha spark.

Ichneumon

2009-07-09, 01:16 PM

I think the fake character develop of Durkon in #667 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) is almost shameful.

Kaytara

2009-07-09, 01:31 PM

I think the fake character develop of Durkon in #667 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) is almost shameful.

Why do you call it fake? :smallconfused:

Surfing HalfOrc

2009-07-09, 02:57 PM

She's not dead. I think. She said she hated Nale and left the Linear Guild. I think she will turn up later in the story again and help the OotS when they go to the dwarven lands.

Help? Her boyfriend dumped her, right after getting some nookie! And you think she's gonna HELP the OotS? YIKES! :smalleek:

I think she'll be back, and possibly with a baby in tow...

And THAT will cause some character development in Durkon!

Salty

2009-07-09, 03:24 PM

*snip*

Only YakYak is dead.

Yakyak? Must be Yikyik's talkative wife! Or teenage daughter...or something. :smallamused:

Ichneumon

2009-07-09, 03:40 PM

Why do you call it fake? :smallconfused:

Because it feels forced?

Optimystik

2009-07-09, 04:06 PM

Because it feels forced?

"I was wrong, I should have helped you instead of wasting time criticizing you." While it does ring hollow (How could Durkon have helped locate Haley anyway? Commune?) it is at least sincere.

Ichneumon

2009-07-09, 04:14 PM

"I was wrong, I should have helped you instead of wasting time criticizing you." While it does ring hollow (How could Durkon have helped locate Haley anyway? Commune?) it is at least sincere.

I know, but there was no leading up towards it. He just suddenly changed his mind. I call that forced.

Janmorel

2009-07-09, 04:25 PM

Help? Her boyfriend dumped her, right after getting some nookie! And you think she's gonna HELP the OotS? YIKES! :smalleek:

I think she'll be back, and possibly with a baby in tow...

And THAT will cause some character development in Durkon!

TWO babies in tow, twins named Death and Destruction (Hilgya did not take the breakup well). Durkon the traditionalist would obviously want to bring the little ankle-biters to the land of their forebears. Hilarity ensues!

Seriously, trying to outsmart prophecies never works out as planned.

Random832

2009-07-09, 04:26 PM

(How could Durkon have helped locate Haley anyway? Commune?)

Uh... yeah. "Is Haley Starshine Alive?" yes. "Is Haley Starshine still in Azure City?" if not, work through locations in order of distance from AC. They've got Epic InsideTM, they can break through Cloister (might teach V some respect for divine magic)

Bibliomancer

2009-07-09, 04:29 PM

I know, but there was no leading up towards it. He just suddenly changed his mind. I call that forced.

People have been known to do that when lost friends show up with epic-level power in tow and solve a lot of problems. It could be quite shocking if you were actually living through it.

Optimystik

2009-07-09, 08:06 PM

theinsulabot

2009-07-09, 08:12 PM

Uh... yeah. "Is Haley Starshine Alive?" yes. "Is Haley Starshine still in Azure City?" if not, work through locations in order of distance from AC. They've got Epic InsideTM, they can break through Cloister (might teach V some respect for divine magic)

yeah but this is thor we are talking about here

:durkon: is haley alive?

thor: is haley a voluptuous Valkyrie woman i have yet to charm?

:durkon: no

thor: is haley a terrible monster i should slay for honor, glory, and a little personal amusement?

:durkon: no

thor: is haley a flavor of mead or ale i have yet to sample?

:durkon: no

thor: then i guess i couldn't care less about that person. now call me when you need a CSW or thor's might

:durkon: isn't commune suppose to be like, yes or no only?

thor: i am a god, screw the rules. now beat it

Haven

2009-07-09, 08:28 PM

Optimystik

2009-07-09, 08:42 PM

Surfing HalfOrc

2009-07-10, 11:40 AM

As much as the lack of focus on Durkon saddens me (he's NOT just a generic dwarf--even if Haley doesn't remember things like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0205.html)--and he should have more chances to prove it), I would be glad to continue in that direction forever if the alternative is a Hilgya pregnancy plot. :smallyuk:

Why would you be opposed to a pregnancy plot? If anything will change a man, it's knowing he is responsible for the health and well being of a few rugrats! (I should know, having two of the little buggers myself. Quit the job I loved (teaching) for a job that paid the bills (Quality Assurance))

Plus Hilgya has been gone long enough to have had a baby (or twins!), so showing up now would be a real Maury Povich moment!

Moogleking

2009-07-10, 01:12 PM

TWO babies in tow, twins named Death and Destruction (Hilgya did not take the breakup well). Durkon the traditionalist would obviously want to bring the little ankle-biters to the land of their forebears. Hilarity ensues!

Seriously, trying to outsmart prophecies never works out as planned.

If this is correct, you may have a whole internet full of cookies :smallamused:

Bibliomancer

2009-07-10, 01:37 PM

yeah but this is thor we are talking about here

:durkon: is haley alive?

thor: is haley a voluptuous Valkyrie woman i have yet to charm?

:durkon: no

thor: is haley a terrible monster i should slay for honor, glory, and a little personal amusement?

:durkon: no

thor: is haley a flavor of mead or ale i have yet to sample?

:durkon: no

thor: then i guess i couldn't care less about that person. now call me when you need a CSW or thor's might

:durkon: isn't commune suppose to be like, yes or no only?

thor: i am a god, screw the rules. now beat it

Or Durkon could develop some back bone and lie to his god on the first one. What could possibly go wrong? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)

Scarlet Knight

2009-07-10, 02:15 PM

I know, but there was no leading up towards it. He just suddenly changed his mind. I call that forced.

He changed his mind suddenly because the evidence came suddenly.

V suddenly appeared, transported the fleet across the ocean, turned into a pink dragon, then popped out to Azure City.

Durkon is clever enough to see that V gained power beyond what Durkon thought he could, wise enough to realize he might have been wrong, and kindly enough to make amends.

Kaytara

2009-07-10, 04:09 PM

I know, but there was no leading up towards it. He just suddenly changed his mind. I call that forced.

While I agree with Scarlet Knight that his change of opinion happened suddenly because the events that caused it happened suddenly, I also agree that some more focus on his character would have been good. Changes of opinion are more convincing if fertile ground for them is established beforehand. But we don't really SEE him being afraid to make the wrong decisions, for example, we just see him trying to get V and Elan to budge, failing and then sitting tight for months for no apparent reason. It's important to show and not tell and I'm afraid Rich neglected Durkon on this one. I'm just holding out for bonus strips to fill in that gap.

Uh... yeah. "Is Haley Starshine Alive?" yes. "Is Haley Starshine still in Azure City?" if not, work through locations in order of distance from AC. They've got Epic InsideTM, they can break through Cloister (might teach V some respect for divine magic)

You know, I'd bet you ten gold that Rich houseruled the Commune spell out of the setting (either that, or we'll see a bonus strip with an attempt at Commune failing hilariously). Story-wise, anything that can hand out free plot-critical information is horribly broken. The closest thing to free information that we have in the story is the Oracle and see how complicated THAT service is. Same meta-reason V can't teleport. It would make things too easy for the heroes.

Linkavitch

2009-07-10, 04:34 PM

Poor Hilgya. Unable to live without Durkon, she leapt from a wind blown , flumpfless cliff. Or she ate one of her sandwiches by mistake...:smallamused:

You know, you'd think the husband would have noticed the big bottle of poison in his sandwich. Either when she served it to him, or when he chewed it and swallowed it down.

theinsulabot

2009-07-10, 04:59 PM

You know, you'd think the husband would have noticed the big bottle of poison in his sandwich. Either when she served it to him, or when he chewed it and swallowed it down.

he was drunk

Morgan Wick

2009-07-11, 07:08 PM

I know, but there was no leading up towards it. He just suddenly changed his mind. I call that forced.

I don't think it was character development at all, only backdrop to V's character development, and serving as a way for V to get a "There, there" from Durkon.

Forbiddenwar

2009-07-11, 07:23 PM

I know, but there was no leading up towards it. He just suddenly changed his mind. I call that forced.

Durkon's character development, (everyone say, "what development?":smalltongue:) in this specific case and in general:

1) Occurs slowly as he is a slow and careful thinker, not someone who reacts rashly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html). As a dwarf is expected to live hundreds of years, slow character development is probably in his genes. We maight have to wait awhile to see "fast" development, like 50 years or so. V development has been from exterior forces acting on her, which is why it is not as slow as durkon's.

2)Tends to occur off panel:
What was said in 667 has been brewing in his mind since 591 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), or even earlier. the development we see was not on panel and in the strip because it would have detracted from Haley's and V's Arc. But it was still there.

Kaytara

2009-07-11, 08:17 PM

As a dwarf is expected to live hundreds of years,
Gah! Really?! :smalleek: Are you sure? My impression of DnD dwarves was always that their life span was just slightly longer than the humans'... Hundreds of years is probably pushing it. It's what elves are for.

2)Tends to occur off panel:
What was said in 667 has been brewing in his mind since 591 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), or even earlier. the development we see was not on panel and in the strip because it would have detracted from Haley's and V's Arc. But it was still there.
Character development occurring off-panel is in effect the same thing as no character development at all - we don't see it happen, so it doesn't register with us. Therefore, such a rapid change of opinion can feel forced. I do not think that it feels forced in this case, because for me it seems that Durkon is the type to deal with a problem just by mulling it over and coming to a conclusion, even if that conclusion is "I was wrong". But I do think his exact stance on these events - that he was afraid of doing the wrong thing, for example - should have been made clear in previous strips rather than only retroactively introduced as part of his apologetic monologue.

We can't appreciate character development if we don't see exactly what has changed, and for that we need to know how things were before and how things are now and why it's all such a big deal. If a character just says out of the blue what they've been feeling the entire time and how they feel now, it can be rather unsatisfying. And here, Durkon's little bit of development is nice, but not as nice as it would have been had we not been forced to take it in all at once. It was a bit of a "Gah! Durkon was experiencing doubt this whole time? Who'd have thought!" moment.

Jagos

2009-07-11, 08:53 PM

Well, he is the wisest one. To "magically" come to this conclusion that makes the most sense is within his nature.

Though I do agree more should have happened on panel so we could understand Durkon better. He really needs more screen time so we can feel him out a little better.

Kaytara

2009-07-11, 09:29 PM

Well, he is the wisest one. To "magically" come to this conclusion that makes the most sense is within his nature.

..Which is exactly what I meant when I said that he seems like the type to do that. :smalltongue:

Optimystik

2009-07-11, 10:30 PM

Gah! Really?! :smalleek: Are you sure? My impression of DnD dwarves was always that their life span was just slightly longer than the humans'... Hundreds of years is probably pushing it. It's what elves are for.

While not as long-lived as elves, dwarves still have pretty long lifespans. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm)

This is in fact the largest bone of contention between the two races, according to Races of Stone. Dwarves see Elves as behaving irresponsibly with the use of their long lifespans - that they could accomplish so much more if they weren't spending all their time frolicking under trees etc.

We can't appreciate character development if we don't see exactly what has changed, and for that we need to know how things were before and how things are now and why it's all such a big deal. If a character just says out of the blue what they've been feeling the entire time and how they feel now, it can be rather unsatisfying.

I was just reminded of Robot Devil from Futurama (berating Fry about his play): "You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!" :smalltongue:

I agree with you 100%, of course.

Rotipher

2009-07-11, 10:36 PM

Jagos

2009-07-11, 10:40 PM

mmmm...

We don't really know his background. He's what... 52? And it seems for the longest time, he was sheltered in the caverns of his homeland (fighting trees no doubt. Oy...)

Out of experience, I'd have to give it to Hilgya more than Durkon. Durkon is apt to be quiet and learn something. But at least Hilgya seems to have experienced more.

Kaytara

2009-07-12, 06:33 AM

Fantastic racial profiling aside, I think Durkon's steadiness of character isn't necessarily just a parody of All Dwarves Are Alike. The simple truth is that he's a guy with a high Wisdom, which suggests that he's already done a lot of the life-lesson-learning which character development in this comic tends to consist of. He's always been more grown-up than the other Order members, which makes it harder to come up with learning experiences which are suited to Durkon.

Well, didn't the high priest call him a "young" dwarf in Origins, and NCftPB lists his age as... 39. (Which is interesting given that dwarves apparently reach adulthood at 40 years, and Durkon was exiled years earlier, apparently as a teenager. Heh.)

I don't really see room for a lot of lesson-learning there. We know that he became really disillusioned and grumpy with humans for their foolish ways until he met Roy, who restored his faith in humanity. That's... all. I'd attribute Durkon's maturity simply to high WIS, which means he has fewer lessons to learn in the first place, rather than much real life experience.

I mean, some people ARE more or less stable from the beginning. It's rare in fiction, but that's the way it is. :smalltongue:

Jagos

2009-07-12, 08:28 AM

Actually I believe the Giant changed his age afterwards...

Simply because his 30s was too young for Durkon to be out.

Weimann

2009-07-12, 10:21 AM

Yep. Durkon is the only OOTS'r who hasn't undergone noticeable character growth. A comely lass of the bad-girl pursuasion might be just tha spark.
I think she'll be back, and possibly with a baby in tow...I personally hope the lady will show up in her original "bad girl" style. It would be interesting to see Durkon's reaction to seeing her again. He could use a helping of indulgance, the poor dwarf.

Also, it would be interesting to see the battle of wills: would Hilgya sway Durkon's devotion, or would he stubbornly rebuff her? Provided, or course that the lady is still interested in him, which there is no garantee for.

Hm, thinking about it, I'm not certain which outcome I'd rather see...

Needle

2009-07-12, 01:46 PM

She's pregnant, or had a baby. For sure. And will probably come on her bad girl style, but saying something like...

"All this year that passed I was alone, I came looking for some of that responsability you told me at Dorukan's"

Tough the Oracle said Durkon would not be able to return Dwarven Lands alive, this is a real possibility since Durkon could be slained before reaching it, or well, I don't remember well if Durkon asked about "Dwarven Lands" or "Home Town", and that is a GREAT difference :smalltongue:

Just spicing up :smallredface: I hope to see Hilgya again :smallbiggrin:

nybbler

2009-07-13, 10:25 AM

Or Durkon could develop some back bone and lie to his god on the first one. What could possibly go wrong? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)

He could answer "well, close enough". It's not like Thor would feel cheated once he checked.

However, more importantly, Thor probably couldn't peek in on Azure City because Tiger is still ticked at him.

Optimystik

2009-07-13, 10:47 AM

Well, didn't the high priest call him a "young" dwarf in Origins, and NCftPB lists his age as... 39. (Which is interesting given that dwarves apparently reach adulthood at 40 years, and Durkon was exiled years earlier, apparently as a teenager. Heh.)

"Young" is a relative term. The same age guidelines list human adulthood at 15, yet we would consider that a very young age to be slashing monsters and hunting for treasure. In addition, we don't know how old the high priest is - he may easily be twice Durkon's age or more, which would make his use of "young" more than appropriate.

She's pregnant, or had a baby. For sure. And will probably come on her bad girl style, but saying something like...

"All this year that passed I was alone, I came looking for some of that responsability you told me at Dorukan's"

Tough the Oracle said Durkon would not be able to return Dwarven Lands alive, this is a real possibility since Durkon could be slained before reaching it, or well, I don't remember well if Durkon asked about "Dwarven Lands" or "Home Town", and that is a GREAT difference :smalltongue:

Just spicing up :smallredface: I hope to see Hilgya again :smallbiggrin:

He said "dwarven homelands" (#331) but if Hilgya will truly be back, it's unlikely she would be inside the dwarven homelands either. Not only does she hate it there, her husband is still alive and they would likely try to shackle her down to family life again. Dwarves are extremely family-oriented (Races of Stone) and it appears that OotS dwarves share this trait from Durkon's rant. Hilgya is an exception.

Thus, she can meet him again without violating the prophecy - he just has to run into her before going home.