The fate of the IFCC is sealed...

[Ancalagon]

... and they did it themselves, they gambled and suddenly they realised the horse they were betting on is doped and cheating...

Vaarsuvius killed the black dragons, which was totally unexpected by the IFCC when they gave Vaarsuvius the splice to be able to control his soul in the right moment.

That brought them in direct conflict with an evil, hateful deity.

They could avert the direct vengeance or some retribution by a) telling Tiamat that what happend was "for the greater Evil" and b) that they will kill five good aligned dragons for every black dragon that died.

Now, if they ARE successful and "achieve their goals" (whatever those might be) gain the upper hand in the conflict between good and evil, they can do that and Tiamat will be pleased.
So, but what happens when they do NOT achieve that goal? Tiamat will take revenge for the not-fullfilled contract and as vengeance. She will destroy the IFCC.

Now, how big are the chances, from a pure out-of-comic-perspective, that the IFCC has ANY chance to actually "win" this (which would mean the absolute victory of the evil forces over the good)? Near zero, I'd say.

It seems they do not know what Vaarsuvius did with slaying the dragon: Suddenly, it is not "one plan" anymore, the entire gate-story suddenly tied their own fate to that "plan".
You could even say, from Tiamat's perspective, that only fullfilling part b) of the above was not enough, since all those black dragons would have died for nothing (= not for the greater Evil).
Ooops. Bye bye, IFCC, I say.

[factotum]

I doubt it. If the worst comes to the worst and their elaborate plan unravels, they just have to go and kill 5 good dragons for each of the black dragons V killed; if just one of the IFCC can survive an up-close and personal anger management session with Tiamat herself, taking down a few dozen bronze dragons shouldn't be beyond them.

[Ancalagon]

I doubt it. If the worst comes to the worst and their elaborate plan unravels, they just have to go and kill 5 good dragons for each of the black dragons V killed; if just one of the IFCC can survive an up-close and personal anger management session with Tiamat herself, taking down a few dozen bronze dragons shouldn't be beyond them.

Just?

If roughly 1/4 of the black-dragon population was killed by that, then the fiends had to eradicate enough dragons to make one kind of chromatic dragons completely vanish.
I doubt even the fiends could do that before the breakfast. It probably would mean war between the good dragons (and who knows what other good creatures they can muster) and the fiends.

And you do not know if Tiamat tried to kill the fiend and he survived or if she was "just" somewhat angry and let him feel it. No, the last word is far from spoken - and the three fiends are the ones who will hear, no speak, it.

[NerfTW]

What makes you think they didn't expect that outcome? They gave V a soul splice with the ability to slaughter an entire bloodline, that was pretty much to be expected.

Nowhere does it say they didn't expect it.

[Ancalagon]

What makes you think they didn't expect that outcome? They gave V a soul splice with the ability to slaughter an entire bloodline, that was pretty much to be expected.

Nowhere does it say they didn't expect it.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

Take a look at the 7th panel and tell me again they 'totally expected' it...

... and even THEY call that deed "horrible" (10th panel; they might not condemn it, but they name it for what it is).

[NerfTW]

I beg to differ. They gave V a soul splice with that ability. While they might have been surprised that it actually worked, they knew it was a possibility and would have planned for it.

You don't give someone an atom bomb and not know what you'll do if they use it.

[Optimystik]

I doubt it. If the worst comes to the worst and their elaborate plan unravels, they just have to go and kill 5 good dragons for each of the black dragons V killed; if just one of the IFCC can survive an up-close and personal anger management session with Tiamat herself, taking down a few dozen bronze dragons shouldn't be beyond them.

I don't think they can do that directly. They'd have to set up some other elaborate scheme to get access to a mortal spellcaster to act through.

There's also the tiny problem of Marduk (Bahamut) still being alive and able to smite the crap out of them if they try anything against his dragons without the Snarl backing them up. Orange needed healing even AFTER he made his Diplomacy check against Tiamat after all; I don't think he can stand up to a deity actually trying to kill him.

[Ancalagon]

I beg to differ. They gave V a soul splice with that ability. While they might have been surprised that it actually worked, they knew it was a possibility and would have planned for it.

You don't give someone an atom bomb and not know what you'll do if they use it.

You might give someone a nuke and expect him to use it on "his arch nemesis". That je suddenly nukes the city where a person who threatened you lived might come as surprise.

They expected Vaarsuvius to "do nasty stuff", they surely expected him to attack Xykon and they did not mind a few things/beings might break while Vaarsuvius was rescuing his family or attacking Xykon - but they surely did not expect him to slaughter 1/4 of the black dragons. How could they have, I ask you?

Also, did you look at their eyes? I posted you a comic as proof of my statement, you just claimed "nope". Give a reason that is supported by the comic of by some quote of the giant or, at least!, give some other reason.
Stating a pure opinion is next to worthless: neither will you convince me you have a point nor can I address what you said to support my claim against your new reasons.

[NerfTW]

I stated my view of the comic. They are "surprised" only in that they weren't quite 100% sure that V would use that spell on the black dragon. Nowhere in the comic does it say "We totally didn't plan for that", just like it doesn't say "We totally planned that."

I didn't say "nope", I simply said that my interpretation of that panel is different from yours.

Further, the necromancer was supposed to solve "certain shortcomings" in V's abilities. That is the only necromancer spell V used besides create greater undead. There was simply no purpose to giving V the necromancer splice unless they planned on her spells being used.

Therefore, I don't think it was completely unplanned that the familicide spell would be used against the initial threat whose motive was avenging a family member.

[Moff Chumley]

I'm with NerfTW. The entire reason they gave V the soul splice (from V's point of view) was to defend her family and kill the dragon. What with their obvious knowledge of V's nature (the "Pre-Faustian Report") and the power they were bestowing him/her with, I think that that result was entirely to be expected.

[Ancalagon]

When Tiamat is done killing the IFCC I'll point at you and say: I told you so! ;)

[Pronounceable]

if just one of the IFCC can survive an up-close and personal anger management session with Tiamat herself

I'd say it's just Tiamat chewing him up a bit on the phone. Not an actual personal meeting with her.

[Moff Chumley]

Well, that's probably what's going to happen. Eventually. But it won't be as strait-forward as that. We still need a few more bits of info to figure the IFCC out.

[Ancalagon]

Well, that's probably what's going to happen. Eventually. But it won't be as strait-forward as that. We still need a few more bits of info to figure the IFCC out.

I think it might even happen in some sort of epilogue...

[dps]

they surely did not expect him to slaughter 1/4 of the black dragons. How could they have, I ask you?

How could they? By knowing the capabilities of the casters whose souls they spliced to V. Surely they didn't expect the elf to use the familicide spell against Xykon.

[derfenrirwolv]

I doubt it. If the worst comes to the worst and their elaborate plan unravels, they just have to go and kill 5 good dragons for each of the black dragons V killed; if just one of the IFCC can survive an up-close and personal anger management session with Tiamat herself, taking down a few dozen bronze dragons shouldn't be beyond them.

The problem is that the IFCC can't interfere in the prime material plane directly. They need to work through agents... and the best they have is Nale and Co. If they had better, they'd put THEM on the whole universe devouring god killing monstrosity.

[slayerx]

The problem is that the IFCC can't interfere in the prime material plane directly. They need to work through agents... and the best they have is Nale and Co. If they had better, they'd put THEM on the whole universe devouring god killing monstrosity.

I don't think they can do that directly. They'd have to set up some other elaborate scheme to get access to a mortal spellcaster to act through.

There's also the tiny problem of Marduk (Bahamut) still being alive and able to smite the crap out of them if they try anything against his dragons without the Snarl backing them up. Orange needed healing even AFTER he made his Diplomacy check against Tiamat after all; I don't think he can stand up to a deity actually trying to kill him.


Thing to keep in mind... Tiamat never did give them a due date on those good dragons. They got lots of time to find a new pawn... and hell it should not be hard for them to find another caster, such as an evil one, that they can tempt into doing their bidding... i mean a temporary boost to epic level can be quite tempting especially if you don't have to pay much of a price... hell instead of the "rent a soul" deal they could just say that the price is using familicide against a good aligned dragon, that's 20% of the job done right there, and no actual lose for the caster; and evil caster would not hesitate much to jump on a deal like that


as for Marduk... doubt the IFCC would have too much to worry about him... just as Tiamat blamed the IFCC instead of V, Marduk would likely blame Tiamat for the death of the good dragons

[Optimystik]

As for Marduk... doubt the IFCC would have too much to worry about him... just as Tiamat blamed the IFCC instead of V, Marduk would likely blame Tiamat for the death of the good dragons

Tiamat likely didn't go after V because she can't interfere with the mortal world directly any more than they can. Going after the IFCC is a different matter, because they're not in the mortal world. So we don't know if them launching a strike against the good dragons would attract his attention in a bad way or not.

One thing it would do is tip their hand - so they'd have to make sure they have the Snarl under wraps before doing so.

[slayerx]

Tiamat likely didn't go after V because she can't interfere with the mortal world directly any more than they can. Going after the IFCC is a different matter, because they're not in the mortal world. So we don't know if them launching a strike against the good dragons would attract his attention in a bad way or not.

One thing it would do is tip their hand - so they'd have to make sure they have the Snarl under wraps before doing so.

I doubt it would have been hard for Tiamat to seek vengeance by proxy... such as getting her clerics or another ancient dragon to target V... problem is though, V alone would not have been enough to pay for the dragons lost, and when it comes down to it, Tiamat would rather see good dragon blood instead of elven blood as payment

If i recall, Marduk is lawful good and therefore would take revenge by a lawful approach... and when it comes down to it, the IFCC pretty much was forced to kill the good dragons after being blamed for the slaughter evil dragons... when it comes down to it, the death of the good dragons comes down from threats from Tiamat, and not their own choice. Essentially, Tiamat is having those dragons kill via proxy... why should Marduk lay down the blame upon the IFCC when they were acting under force by Tiamat

Furtharmore, considering how IFCC represents all three of the fiendish races, i might expect them to have powerful backers amongst the evil deities that would protect them from direct attacks by the good deities... it's one thing if lessor forces kill them, but i don't think the evil deities would much like good deities walking into lower planes and start killing fiends... and visa versa for the upper planes

[Raenir Salazar]

I doubt it would have been hard for Tiamat to seek vengeance by proxy... such as getting her clerics or another ancient dragon to target V... problem is though, V alone would not have been enough to pay for the dragons lost, and when it comes down to it, Tiamat would rather see good dragon blood instead of elven blood as payment

If i recall, Marduk is lawful good and therefore would take revenge by a lawful approach... and when it comes down to it, the IFCC pretty much was forced to kill the good dragons after being blamed for the slaughter evil dragons... when it comes down to it, the death of the good dragons comes down from threats from Tiamat, and not their own choice. Essentially, Tiamat is having those dragons kill via proxy... why should Marduk lay down the blame upon the IFCC when they were acting under force by Tiamat

Furtharmore, considering how IFCC represents all three of the fiendish races, i might expect them to have powerful backers amongst the evil deities that would protect them from direct attacks by the good deities... it's one thing if lessor forces kill them, but i don't think the evil deities would much like good deities walking into lower planes and start killing fiends... and visa versa for the upper planes

lawful doesnt override grief.

[slayerx]

lawful doesnt override grief.

Technically it kinda does... to be truly lawful, one must set aside personal grievances, as one must judge by the will of law and not emotion or opinion. To lash out based on emotion would be doing something chaotic.

granted though, if Marduk is not a being a PURE lawful good, then it does mean he does have the ability to make non-lawful actions such as acting out emotionally...

[Thanatosia]

You might give someone a nuke and expect him to use it on "his arch nemesis". That je suddenly nukes the city where a person who threatened you lived might come as surprise.
I beg to differ. They knew 100% that V was about to go smackdown the Dragon.... the fact that V would go after Xykon was something they were unsure of. Your analogy is backwards..... by directly threatening his family the Dragon was V's Arch Nemesis, Xykon never did anything to V to elicit hatred on that scale - as Xykon himself deduced, there is little personal animosity between V and Xykon, Xykon just represented the 'Mount Everest' of obsticles for arcane might to overcome, V's main incentive for defeating Xykon is 'because he was there'.

[hamishspence]

According to Fiendish Codex 2, Devils can, and do, lash out based on emotion- and they are Lawful subtype outsiders.

If "a creature of law" is quite capable of lashing out, then a god is, since in Deities and Demigods, it stresses a god's alignment is a measure of its general outlook- despite subtypes, evil gods sometimes act benevolently, and good gods sometimes do evil things.

[Optimystik]

despite subtypes, evil gods sometimes act benevolently, and good gods sometimes do evil things.

Correct. Malar will occasionally send game to a starving village for the commoners to hunt and feed themselves, Beshaba will occasionally save lives on a whim, Loviatar creates DR items... the list goes on.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...one kind of chromatic dragons completely vanish...

Err...wouldn't that make T MORE angry?
:tongue: