5 Good Dragon gods for every Black Dragon?!

[bue52]

How many Dragon gods that are good are there?!
In comic we have seen only Dragon from the Zodiac, though with Tiamat's presence, we can assume that Bahamut is probably in the Oots universe too, but that only makes 2 good dragon gods, and even then we don't know Dragon's true alignment. So where would the other gods come from?

[Porthos]

How many Dragon gods that are good are there?!
In comic we have seen only Dragon from the Zodiac, though with Tiamat's presence, we can assume that Bahamut is probably in the Oots universe too, but that only makes 2 good dragon gods, and even then we don't know Dragon's true alignment. So where would the other gods come from?

I think you misread the quote.

It's "Good Dragons" not "Good Dragon Gods". :smallwink:

[Ancalagon]

I think you misread the quote.

It's "Good Dragons" not "Good Dragon Gods". :smallwink:

In addition: Not a single black dragon god died (and even is no such thing that could die in the first place).

[Borris]

Still, if we assume that only the dragons from the Monster Manual exist, and that each of the ten types of chromatic or metallic dragon had a equal population... Well, five times 20% of one type of chromatic dragon is equal to 20% of the total population of metallic dragons. Either that or the entire population of one type of metallic dragon. Not likely to happen. But if the world erupts into destructive unecessary conflict...

[Random832]

though with Tiamat's presence, we can assume that Bahamut is probably in the Oots universe too

In the scribble-flashback bits, we see a selection of each pantheon's gods, which includes Marduk (who is, in Forgotten Realms, an aspect of Bahamut), so yeah probably.

[rewinn]

Still, if we assume that only the dragons from the Monster Manual exist, and that each of the ten types of chromatic or metallic dragon had a equal population... Well, five times 20% of one type of chromatic dragon is equal to 20% of the total population of metallic dragons. Either that or the entire population of one type of metallic dragon. Not likely to happen. But if the world erupts into destructive unecessary conflict...

If the IFCC's plans go thru, 100% death of all dragons plus-or-minus Tiamat is not inconceivable.

And if they don't follow thru on the promise BUT control the gates and/or Snarl, what's Tiamat gonna do?

[Kaytara]

Actually, now that I think about it... why dragons? Does Tiamat have some sort of special grudge against her good-aligned relatives? I mean, it makes sense, from a practical perspective, since the good dragons are the ones her kind is actively in competition with. But from the perspective of poetic justice, I would have expected her to demand the deaths of five elves for every black dragon, instead. Or in addition to.

[SadisticFishing]

I think she blames the IFCC, not the elf, for good reason.

They had to placate her, and that was a good offer.

[Dark Faun]

Actually, now that I think about it... why dragons? Does Tiamat have some sort of special grudge against her good-aligned relatives? I mean, it makes sense, from a practical perspective, since the good dragons are the ones her kind is actively in competition with. But from the perspective of poetic justice, I would have expected her to demand the deaths of five elves for every black dragon, instead. Or in addition to.
I think it was to avoid to make it too personal for Vaarsuvius, in addition to the reason given by SadisticFishing.

[Kaytara]

Senselessly killing those juicy elves may be a bad idea for other reasons, as well. :smalltongue:

[Jaltum]

FR not withstanding, it's probably reasonable to believe that Dragon had something to do with the existence of dragons, neh? The Giant's Marduk seems to be more in line with the mythological Marduk--four-armed warrior dude.

OTOH, we do see Dragon complaining about the idea of non-fire breath weapons, during the creation of the world, so... who knows. (Particularly odd because Asian dragons aren't necessarily fire-breathing.)

[Optimystik]

FR not withstanding, it's probably reasonable to believe that Dragon had something to do with the existence of dragons, neh? The Giant's Marduk seems to be more in line with the mythological Marduk--four-armed warrior dude.

Mythological Marduk fights Tiamat too though, so either way he's likely to be either the Metallics' patron, or interested in protecting them.

[Klivian]

If the IFCC's plans go thru, 100% death of all dragons plus-or-minus Tiamat is not inconceivable.

And if they don't follow thru on the promise BUT control the gates and/or Snarl, what's Tiamat gonna do?

Actually, it was Lee on the phone with Tiamat who made the deal, and since he's LE (Lee is LE, get it?), he won't just ignore the deal. Sure, Tiamat might get creamed too, but he won't welsh on it just because his other plans pan out

[Keshay]

But from the perspective of poetic justice, I would have expected her to demand the deaths of five elves for every black dragon, instead. Or in addition to.

That would be like offering 5 Pintos in order to replace your wrecked Maserati. The two are not of remotely equivalent value (least not in the estimation of Tiamat, or the PTB that determines average xp, CR, HD or any other number of relevant stats.)

[Porthos]

Actually, it was Lee on the phone with Tiamat who made the deal, and since he's LE (Lee is LE, get it?), he won't just ignore the deal. Sure, Tiamat might get creamed too, but he won't welsh on it just because his other plans pan out

But Lee isn't LE. :smalltongue:

NOTE: My previous post on the subject, which shows reasoning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6462057&postcount=6).

[NerfTW]

Actually, now that I think about it... why dragons? Does Tiamat have some sort of special grudge against her good-aligned relatives? I mean, it makes sense, from a practical perspective, since the good dragons are the ones her kind is actively in competition with. But from the perspective of poetic justice, I would have expected her to demand the deaths of five elves for every black dragon, instead. Or in addition to.

Probably because that would have just dragged the Elven gods into the squabble, instead of just the other Dragon gods, who we assume are already in conflict with Tiamat.

Remember that there's still the as yet unseen gods that the Elves raised, according to the Crayons of Time segment.

[Mando Knight]

Does Tiamat have some sort of special grudge against her good-aligned relatives?

Yes. She has always hated the good ones. And she always will.

[Bibliomancer]

But Lee isn't LE. :smalltongue:

NOTE: My previous post on the subject, which shows reasoning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6462057&postcount=6).

Interesting logic. However, this comic seems to contradict it:

Tiamat (LE) blames yellow guy (assumed to be Lee) for the deaths of the dragons. A LE god would not have any scope to punish anyone besides a LE devil, who lives on the same plane.Therefore Lee=LE and the sorcerer was loopy or borrowed from someone else.

[Almaseti]

I don't think this was so much Tiamat wanting justice as Lee promising her something to mollify her. Lee probably made the offer, is what I'm thinking, and he probably figured she hated Good Dragons more than Elves. Besides, I kinda think V might be more neutral than good, especially after the whole Soul Splice arc.

[Timberboar]

Interesting logic. However, this comic seems to contradict it:

Tiamat (LE) blames yellow guy (assumed to be Lee) for the deaths of the dragons. A LE god would not have any scope to punish anyone besides a LE devil, who lives on the same plane.Therefore Lee=LE and the sorcerer was loopy or borrowed from someone else.

I'm not following that logic.

Lee is the director/head of the IFCC -- she's going to make her displeasure known to the leader, regardless of alignment.

And besides, we don't know if Tiamat is Lawful Evil in this incarnation. I'm thinking she can punish whoever she darn well wants to punish.

[Kreistor]

Good dragons start dying like this and there will be war. They'll need to be very quiet about killing these dragons.

[Mando Knight]

Good dragons start dying like this and there will be war.

That's exactly what they want.

[Snails]

Good dragons start dying like this and there will be war. They'll need to be very quiet about killing these dragons.

If things go well for IFCC, think of the Good Dragons as Alderaan.

[Thanatosia]

I think the evidence for Lee being Chaotic Evil far exceeds the LE Evidence - He was clearly in charge of the CE Sorceror, and the Succubus (who are CE) directly reported to him, and Orange is clearly presented as the LE one (The university and control over what is clearly the LE soul). Why do people think he's the guy in charge of the IFCC tho? I always thought it looked more like an equal partnership, I know he's been refered to as Director Lee, but the business cards they gave V indicate they all have the Director title.

I think he took the call to Tiamat and negotiated with her simply because he happened to be the closest at hand when the Secretary brought the phone - he was standing the futhest right with the other two talking to each other to the left while the secretary came in from the right edge of the panel. An alternative explanation is that the secretary looks to be a Succubus as well, wich would also place her under the direct command of the CE director.

[rewinn]

Actually, it was Lee on the phone with Tiamat who made the deal, and since he's LE (Lee is LE, get it?), he won't just ignore the deal. Sure, Tiamat might get creamed too, but he won't welsh on it just because his other plans pan out

Good point; whichever one of the IFCC is Lawful (I can't keep them straight), that one would seek to fulfill the bargain, at least as to the letter of the bargain. Tiamat, knowing this, might well prefer to negotiate with the LE Director.

By mollifying Tiamat, the IFCC may've let the Order off the hook with respect to Tiamat's revenge. I suppose it would've been excessive to expect them to fight her as well as Xykon, although opportunities for merriment would ensue.

[Secris]

If Tiamat had been over-anazlying alignment and knew which director was which, sure, she probably would have wanted to deal with the Lawful one. But I imagine she's so angry right now she's not really thinking "Well, that one's a devil, and that one's a Demon, so blah blah blah" and more thinking "They killed my dragons and they will pay!"

[[TS] Shadow]

In addition: Not a single black dragon god died (and even is no such thing that could die in the first place).

You forget how the Greek Gods ended up.

[Callista]

Actually, now that I think about it... why dragons? Does Tiamat have some sort of special grudge against her good-aligned relatives? I mean, it makes sense, from a practical perspective, since the good dragons are the ones her kind is actively in competition with. But from the perspective of poetic justice, I would have expected her to demand the deaths of five elves for every black dragon, instead. Or in addition to.Yes. Tiamat has a HUGE grudge against the good dragons, especially against Bahamut. Considering that (adventurers aside) the good dragons tend to be the ones that take out the evil dragons when they start snacking on villagers, Tiamat is not very happy with them at all.

[UltimatheChosen]

Shadow;6467920']You forget how the Greek Gods ended up.
He's not saying that they COULDN'T die, only that there are no black dragon gods (Tiamat doesn't really count, being five different kinds of dragon rolled into one).

[SinsI]

Actually, now that I think about it... why dragons? Does Tiamat have some sort of special grudge against her good-aligned relatives? I mean, it makes sense, from a practical perspective, since the good dragons are the ones her kind is actively in competition with. But from the perspective of poetic justice, I would have expected her to demand the deaths of five elves for every black dragon, instead. Or in addition to.
About three hundred dead elves? One dragon can kill that much in a day...

[Souhiro]

If ALL dragons die, Tiamat will lose most of her worshippers.

If Tiamat lose most of her worshippers, she will lose a lot of her goddess power, if not all.

It Tiamat lose all her powers, and becomes a normal five-headed polychromatic dragon, the oracle would become a normal and puny kobold.

If the oracle become a normal and puny kobold, his profecies won't be worth a crap, Belkar will live, and will be able to kill the oracle again, and again, and again!!!

[Optimystik]

If Tiamat lose most of her worshippers, she will lose a lot of her goddess power, if not all.

Pause there... we know that new gods need worshippers to get established (thanks to Banjo), but not that existing gods need to keep their faithful a la Faerun. After all, they kept their powers even after there were ZERO worshippers (i.e. when the Snarl ate everything.)

[pendell]

Hmm .. I'm surprised Tiamat isn't more interested in getting metallic dragons to fall to evil. We've talked earlier about the possibility of redeeming evil dragons -- is it not possible for good dragons to fall? If a good dragon falls, does Tiamat become it's matron goddess? If an evil dragon is redeemed, does Mardok become its patron?

Then why is Tiamat more concerned with killing good dragons rather than seducing them to the dark side? I would think that would be a better strategy; killing metal dragons makes Marduk weak. Capture or conversion adds strength to Tiamat to the same degree it subtracts from Marduk, so it's effectively a double kill.

Or are dragons so hard-wired into their alignment it's not a concern?

How exactly did dragons get color-coded for our alignment convenience, anyway? Is it magic -- good dragons magically choose those colors -- or is this just discrimination on the basis of color of their scales?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

-- Who is hoping against hope this won't turn into another 28+ page thread. -- BDP.

[hamishspence]

there are several origin stories. One, in dragon magazine Ecology of the Draconian, had the chromatics as corrupted metallics.

in Faerun, both types established great empires with humanoid subjects, then warred on each other a lot.

[Olorin Maia]

If ALL dragons die, Tiamat will lose most of her worshippers.

If Tiamat lose most of her worshippers, she will lose a lot of her goddess power, if not all.

It Tiamat lose all her powers, and becomes a normal five-headed polychromatic dragon, the oracle would become a normal and puny kobold.

If the oracle become a normal and puny kobold, his profecies won't be worth a crap, Belkar will live, and will be able to kill the oracle again, and again, and again!!!

Unfortunately for our murderous friend. Without his oracle powers, he would not know when Belkar kills him next, and thus cannot be resurrected. Also, there would be no need for him to be brought back, as he cannot tell the future any more.

[Steward]

Wait, so if you're an oracle and you make a prediction, and then the God who gives you that power dies, all of the predictions you've already made become worthless? Is that the way of it? Doesn't that imply that Tiamat is the one who makes the Oracle's predictions come true? If that's so, how do we know that?

[Olorin Maia]

Wait, so if you're an oracle and you make a prediction, and then the God who gives you that power dies, all of the predictions you've already made become worthless? Is that the way of it? Doesn't that imply that Tiamat is the one who makes the Oracle's predictions come true? If that's so, how do we know that?

Hmmm...good point, he would still know every time he died. Okay, they would have no reason to resurrect him, and thus Belkar could only kill him once.

[Jaltum]

Then why is Tiamat more concerned with killing good dragons rather than seducing them to the dark side? I would think that would be a better strategy; killing metal dragons makes Marduk weak. Capture or conversion adds strength to Tiamat to the same degree it subtracts from Marduk, so it's effectively a double kill.

Killing them is more achievable, though, especially in those quantities.

Also: There's no evidence that having fewer worshippers makes a god weak. We know that worship can raise ordinary souls or even puppets to the level of gods, but there's no information one way or another about how it works in reverse, or if it applies to the original gods.

We also don't have any information about a connection between OotS-Marduk and dragons. These are both popular fanon, but not supported (or contradicted) by the comic.

[SadisticFishing]

Hmm .. I'm surprised Tiamat isn't more interested in getting metallic dragons to fall to evil. We've talked earlier about the possibility of redeeming evil dragons -- is it not possible for good dragons to fall? If a good dragon falls, does Tiamat become it's matron goddess? If an evil dragon is redeemed, does Mardok become its patron?

Then why is Tiamat more concerned with killing good dragons rather than seducing them to the dark side? I would think that would be a better strategy; killing metal dragons makes Marduk weak. Capture or conversion adds strength to Tiamat to the same degree it subtracts from Marduk, so it's effectively a double kill.

Or are dragons so hard-wired into their alignment it's not a concern?

How exactly did dragons get color-coded for our alignment convenience, anyway? Is it magic -- good dragons magically choose those colors -- or is this just discrimination on the basis of color of their scales?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

-- Who is hoping against hope this won't turn into another 28+ page thread. -- BDP.

Because they're inherently good. They almost never fall, and evil dragons almost never rise.

It's how the world works - think about it as different kinds of birds. Blue Jays are a completely different thing than Cardinals, and different colour - just in this world, their race forces them to be a certain alignment.

Yay magic.

[rewinn]

Because they're inherently good. They almost never fall, and evil dragons almost never rise.

It's how the world works - think about it as different kinds of birds. Blue Jays are a completely different thing than Cardinals, and different colour - just in this world, their race forces them to be a certain alignment.

Yay magic.
Perhaps because Copper, Gold, Silver and Platinum are Noble Metals, nobility is hard-wired into the dragons who are imbued with them (or, if their brains are like ours, hard-synapsed into them).

Mercury is also a noble metal but I don't think there are Mercury dragons .... or do they exist but are just too slippery to locate?

[grolim]

Plus since they are demons and good at "tweaking" a deal who knows how many dragon they actually have to kill to make good on the deal? Does Dragon mean ANY dragon blood? They could easily say sorry half-dragon isnt dragon, and if Tiamat says it is then their deal is resolved also by killing any half good dragons since that would count. Do the eggs count? If not hatched are they dragons? Familicide killed what I construed as BEINGS directly related to that one particular dragon...but does not necessarily mean every being that died was a dragon so their deal may be far less killing then it seems. So if dragon means only full dragons sure the fights are tough but are far fewer than it seems, or if any dragon's blood at all means it is counted then they have to kill far more, but they can also go after far weaker targets. Been a long time since I played, back in 2.0 but are fairy dragons good? and would they count? If so far easier than big mamma gold. IMO Tiamat may find that even a goddess isn't going to win in a deal with the IFCC.

[thepsyker]

Perhaps because Copper, Gold, Silver and Platinum are Noble Metals, nobility is hard-wired into the dragons who are imbued with them (or, if their brains are like ours, hard-synapsed into them).

Mercury is also a noble metal but I don't think there are Mercury dragons .... or do they exist but are just too slippery to locate?I thought that the Metallic dragons were Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold and Silver. I don't remember Platinum being on the list, although Bahamut was referred to as the Platinum Dragon at times wasn't he? Anyway I can't see Brass and Bronze being considered Noble metals, as important as they were historically.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Perhaps because Copper, Gold, Silver and Platinum are Noble Metals, nobility is hard-wired into the dragons who are imbued with them (or, if their brains are like ours, hard-synapsed into them).

Mercury is also a noble metal but I don't think there are Mercury dragons .... or do they exist but are just too slippery to locate?

There were definitely mercury dragons in 2nd ed. I forgot whether they had a build in 3rd ed or not (if they do, it's most likely to be found in Dragons of Faerun.)

[hamishspence]

there are. There are also steel dragons. Both in Dragons of Faerun.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

And as Redcloak can tell you there are actually many other metallic dragons. Here's just a few...

Lithium dragon...very relaxed mood

Calcium dragon...great smile

Zinc dragon...antioxidant breath weapon

Ununbium dragon...a IUPAD systematic dragon name, used until the dragon gets a proper name