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Pulsecode
2009-07-09, 06:17 PM
Hey everyone - I've not attempted an epic build before, so this is a fairly monstrous task. It's quite scary how things start to add up at those levels, especially Base Attack Bonus on a frontline melee class!

Ideally, I'd like someone more experienced to go over this build. It's entirely likely I've done something wrong, and I'd also like advice on where to go next.

Some background... this is for a Forgotten Realms game at level 25, with a 40 point buy on stats. There's going to be a lot of skullduggery, and the the group will contain all alignments and a lot of cross purposes, with a common aim the Gods will not approve of.

So naturally, I decided to play a Paladin. :smallamused:

A straight Paladin would fall more or less immediately, of course, which is why I've gone Paladin 10 / Gray Guard 10. The concept is a servant of justice who has come to decide after many years long service that the divine are all unjust for their support of the Wall of the Faithless - an ultimate cosmic injustice. He'll have to be extraordinarily careful, and frankly even his sullied, tarnished personal code will likely be at breaking point by the end.

I've also taken one level of Master of Masks - it seems a strange choice at first, but Gray Guards get Bluff and Disguise as class skills, so it wasn't actually that hard a thing to reach. One level lets him use the Faceless and Demon masks, effectively giving him two alignment disguises. He can go without a mask to be a blinding torch of Lawful Good, wear the Faceless mask to appear as True Neutral, or wear the Demon mask to appear Chaotic Evil. With the diplomatic manoeuvring he's going to have to do in the future, I think this will come in quite useful. They also provide something approaching alternate identities, and he will be using different names under each mask.

Including for the fact that he's Aasimar, this takes up 22 out of the 25 available levels, but I'm not sure what to do with the rest. Gray Guard is effectively maxed out, and advancing as Paladin is out now that I've taken other levels. More levels of Master of Masks really doesn't seem to be useful, I'm seeing that as just a one level dip.

My original puzzling over the character concept is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6459369&postcount=352), if anyone is interested, and the character sheet is here. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=138368)

I've also not yet sorted out spells, although with a high Wisdom and 15 effective Paladin levels that'll be something to consider. I've also not yet spent more than a few pennies of the obscene starting wealth for a level 25 character, so that's all to come as well.

The feats are drawn from all around, though mostly from fairly common core 3.5 books. Players Handbook, Epic Handbook and Complete Divine, mostly.

If anyone has any comments or advice on the character concept, the mechanics I've worked out so far or what I should do next, it's hugely appreciated. Thank you!
:smallredface:

Malacode
2009-07-09, 06:28 PM
I must say, I like the concept from that original post. If I was statting up such a character, I'd really highlight the contrast between what he once was and now is, and as such, I'd probably stick a few levels of a sickeningly goody-two-shoes class before Grey Guard. With that, the immediate thought is of BoED, assuming you have acess to it. Maybe the Sword of Righteousness class? It's only 3 levels long and nets you three bonus feats, though they have to be Exalted... Still, two good saves and full BAB, so it's not a bad tradeoff.

If not, perhaps the Saint or Fire Souled template? Or both, for a final LA of +5 (Including Aasimar). You get some hefty stat bonuses, as well as a special ability that makes bards pretty much useless.

Pulsecode
2009-07-09, 06:57 PM
Thank you, I'll look into them. I have a stack of borrowed books, but I'm not that familiar with all of them just yet - can you point out where I can find those templates?

quick_comment
2009-07-09, 07:15 PM
You can never go wrong with ToB levels. Three levels of crusader after 22 other levels would give you initiator level 14, enough for 7th level maneuvers.

You could also go for Soldier of Light 1(deities and demigods)/Pious Templar 1/??? 1.

Soldier of light gets you cha to your saves again, and pious templar grants you mettle.


Another route would be divine emissary 3. Its an epic prc, in the srd. At level 3, it gets greater planar ally 1/day, as well as advancing your mount and spellcasting, giving you extra smites, an extra domain and a minor luck bonus.

Legendary Dreadnaught 3 isnt the most powerful, but it lets you brute force through a wall of force. Also, +20 to a save once per day, and some other stuff. Also in the epic srd.

If you see yourself hunting people often, agent retreiver (yet another epic prc) lets you find people easily, and also gives plane shift and a better version of resiliant sphere.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-09, 07:17 PM
From Complete Divine, you could get Hospitaler. Fighter BAB and I think 2 spell casting levels in the first 3 levels.

From Complete Warrior, Justicar or Hunter of the Dead might fit (and depending on your background so might Kensai or Knight protector).

Or you could just go fighter and gain two more feats.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-09, 07:36 PM
First of all, see if you can buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) your level adjustment, which with a +1 LA would put you only 3,000 xp behind, rather than always an entire level behind. If you can't do that, then I'd recommend using the +0 LA Aasimar (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), and just never spend a level (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) to gain the +1 LA and other abilities.

Secondly,

In origin, a Paladin. Ideally devoted to justice and righteousness, rather than a particular deity, although being a member of a specific religious order might work too, at least to start with. The Players Guide is fairly specific in stating that "Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity - devotion to righteousness is enough", though.

That is in the PHB, but the following is in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, on page 25 under the Paladin heading:

All paladins of Faerun are devoted to a patron deity, chosen at the start of their career as paladins.
If you don't want to worship any deity, maybe worship a dead deity such as Amaunator and take the feat Servant of the Fallen from Lost Empires of Faerun. There could even be secretive organizations which still serve his ideals, thus fulfilling the flavor of Gray Guard.

Consider using Cleric with Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin), as like most nonspellcasters and partial spellcasters the PHB Paladin is extremely weak in the epic levels. Something like Fighter 1/ Cleric 4/ Prestige Paladin 3/ Gray Guard 10, then continue with any prestige class(es) that would fit which grant full spellcasting advancement. If you choose to worship Amaunator you could take Sunmaster, also in Lost Empires of Faerun. Contemplative is another good choice for anyone who can qualify.

quick_comment
2009-07-09, 07:52 PM
You could also just go cleric and call yourself a paladin, like the "samurai" miko.

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-09, 08:09 PM
Well, given that you already went the path of Gray Guard, BoED is definitely out.

Given that you're already on epic levels, you'd do well to revisit those prestige classes that grant lousy BAB/saves/bad spellcasting, since those weaknesses are superseded by the fixed Epic saves and attack bonus progression. Add to what the Paladin may be missing: perhaps some more spells (unless you're ignoring the spell progression, which seems to be your case since Gray guard gives only half spellcasting progression, meaning caster level 5 and roughly 2nd level spells), or maneuvers as mentioned earlier.

You could ask the DM if he allows you to buy-off the LA. You'd probably begin at 24th level, but you'd be gaining more XP and suddenly catching up with the party.

I'd get off a few levels of Paladin and replace with Favored Soul or Cleric, your choice. That way, you'd be getting up to 3rd level Cleric spells, which are better than the amount of Paladin spells. These have to be before your conversion to Gray Guard, so that the end result is that you progress your spellcasting with the Gray Guard levels. You can get this around 4th level, which would net you up to 11th level (and thus, 7th level spells) As well, you can attempt to get Battle Blessing and do as much as you can with the few spells that you got (unless you went straight to Holy Warrior and thus have no spells)

Human Paragon 3
2009-07-09, 09:14 PM
Shadowbane Inquisitor and Shadowbane Stalker from Complete Adventurer may be good fits since you are going into the dark to right cosmic wrongs. Stalker gets better abilities and advances spellcasting, but Inquisitor is full BAB and still gives you a few neat perks.

Pulsecode
2009-07-10, 05:56 AM
Hrm. Amaunator would be pretty good, actually. A lawful neutral divine would have less issue with a servant pursuing justice through shady means than a lawful good one. Plus, Amaunator wouldn't voice any objection or intervene on behalf of the Wall of the Faithless, because Amaunatar is dead. Being an Aasimar also gives good incentive to follow a dead divine - if the celestial heritage came from that area, he'd feel the call even though the order is defunct. And by sheer coincidence, this character shares a few physical traits with Amaunator.

Good suggestion, thanks for that. I'll look into Cleric/Prestige Paladin too.

I'm a bit wary of dipping wildly between half a dozen prestige classes, and the Paladin flavour is fairly important to the character. I do tend to prioritise flavour above optimisation - as long as the build is competitive, I don't mind if it's not a world-beater. Critically, it seems the DM of this game thinks the same way - he's shot down or added caveats to a few cheese-heavy builds already.

kamikasei
2009-07-10, 06:00 AM
Oh good, someone else from that game is looking for advice!

*gets popcorn*

(Mostly, I'm just wondering how people suggest spending your wealth at those levels.)

quick_comment
2009-07-10, 11:28 AM
(Mostly, I'm just wondering how people suggest spending your wealth at those levels.)

+6 to all your primary states, +5 inherent to them. Nice sword, nice armor, all the magic items you can get as spell trigger or command word.

kamikasei
2009-07-10, 12:15 PM
As far as sword and armor, is it necessary/advisable to bump them up above the epic mark?

quick_comment
2009-07-10, 12:33 PM
As far as sword and armor, is it necessary/advisable to bump them up above the epic mark?

No, and its highly unadvisable to do so in low epic because that sticks a x10 price modifier on it.

The only epic item worth looking at is the mantle of epic spell resistance

kamikasei
2009-07-10, 12:38 PM
Thanks, that should be a big help.

Pulsecode
2009-07-10, 01:24 PM
The Mantle had caught my eye, even on a brief skim through the epic items chapter. Well worth the money.

Also, the fact that followers of a dead god are treated as faithless when they die is just perfect. Amaunator it is.

Telonius
2009-07-10, 01:30 PM
Away from my books at the moment, but iirc the "Knight Training" feat from the Eberron campaign setting allows paladins to multiclass in a single other class - in your case, Master of Masks - if you want. It is Eberron, though, so you'd definitely have to clear it with your DM. But I don't think there was anything campaign-specific about that particular feat.

Keld Denar
2009-07-10, 01:32 PM
I'm a bit wary of dipping wildly between half a dozen prestige classes, and the Paladin flavour is fairly important to the character. I do tend to prioritise flavour above optimisation - as long as the build is competitive, I don't mind if it's not a world-beater. Critically, it seems the DM of this game thinks the same way - he's shot down or added caveats to a few cheese-heavy builds already.

Flavor is something YOU bring to the table, not something you distill from class levels and feat selection. You play the character, with all of the traits you choose. Mechanics are almost completely irrelevant to roleplay. Your character is whatever he says he is, pretty much regardless of mechanics. You can be a paladin without having any levels in paladin.

Pulsecode
2009-07-10, 01:48 PM
Well, consider me put in my place. But I'll put it much more simply - I want there to be some Paladin in there. Mechanically. If nothing else, Lay On Hands is a pre-requisite for Gray Guard, and the transition doesn't seem to me to have a much impact without it.

I'll look into Knight Training though, thanks. :)

Keld Denar
2009-07-10, 04:25 PM
Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) does grant Lay on Hands at 2nd level. Most builds recommend taking at least 3 levels of it.

Pulsecode
2009-07-10, 05:37 PM
Prestige Paladin I am quite interested in, actually. Going to run through some numbers with Prestige Paladin on top of Cleric, moving into Gray Guard. Thanks for the advice - I'll probably think of new questions soon.

Especially when it comes to spending gold!

Mr.Moron
2009-07-10, 05:49 PM
The Holy Mount feat (Dragon 325 if you can use it) will let you retain your mount progression while going off who-knows where.

tonberrian
2009-07-10, 06:27 PM
I'm just throwing this out there, but the tentative character creation is gestalt, so you might consider what to have on the other side, as well.


All right, just so that people can begin working out character concepts, I'm going to tentatively set character generation as the following:

Gestlalt, level 25, 40 point-buy or 4d6b3, roll 7 times and drop the lowest. You may pick point buy afterwards if you prefer. HP max at first level, roll afterwards.

So yes, I'm going with gestalt. But be warned - if I see powergaming or minmaxing - which includes taking levels in classes that don't match your character - you're going to have a hard time getting in. And if I see widespread abuse of Gestalt, I'll take it away. Just a friendly warning. Note that this doesn't mean I'm recruiting now - this is just for people to be able to work on characters and get crunch and fluff sorted out. I'd prefer to avoid crunch altogether at this point, but I concede that they generally inform each other, and having both is helpful for working out a character.

And as a side note, I wouldn't worry too much about Lord Ao. He's quite literally the incarnation of Deus Ex Machina in the Forgotten Realms, and if he didn't want you to do something, it just wouldn't happen.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-11, 01:16 AM
Human
1. (Cloistered) Cleric 1/ Fighter 1, Weapon Focus, Servant of the Fallen, Extend Spell
2. (Cloistered) Cleric 2/ Fighter 2, Mounted Combat
3. (Cloistered) Cleric 3/ Fighter 3, Persistent Spell
4. (Cloistered) Cleric 4/ Fighter 4, Weapon Specialization
5. Prestige Paladin 1/ Fighter 5
6. Prestige Paladin 2/ (Cloistered) Cleric 5, DMM: Persistent
7. Prestige Paladin 3/ Fighter 6, Power Attack
8. Gray Guard 1/ (Cloistered) Cleric 6
9. Gray Guard 2/ Fighter 7, [feat]
10. Gray Guard 3/ (Cloistered) Cleric 7
11. Gray Guard 4/ Fighter 8, Melee Weapon Mastery
12. Gray Guard 5/ (Cloistered) Cleric 8, [feat]
13. Gray Guard 6/ Fighter 9
14. Gray Guard 7/ (Cloistered) Cleric 9
15. Gray Guard 8/ Fighter 10, Greater Weapon Focus, [feat]
16. Gray Guard 9/ (Cloistered) Cleric 10
17. Gray Guard 10/ Fighter 11
18. Sunmaster 1/ Fighter 12, Greater Weapon Specialization, [feat]
19. Sunmaster 2/ Fighter 13
20. Sunmaster 3/ Fighter 14, [fighter feat]
21. Sunmaster 4/ Fighter 15, [epic feat]
22. Sunmaster 5/ Fighter 16, [fighter feat]
23. Sunmaster 6/ Fighter 17
24. Sunmaster 7/ Fighter 18, Weapon Supremacy, [epic feat]

That gets full Cleric spellcasting along with the best melee feat in the entire game. Maybe consider replacing four Sunmaster levels with Heirophant 4 along with Practiced Spellcaster, and add Practiced Spellcaster first to have a caster level of 24, then add your Heirophant level for a caster level of 28 without items. There are a lot of open feats in the build, but you should definitely get DMM: Persistent with a lot of Night Sticks.

If you want super cheese, get DMM: Heighten Spell, Earth Spell (RoS), and the epic feat Improved Heighten Spell, which will allow you to cast Holy Word with a bonus to the caster level equal to one fewer than the number of turning attempts spent. With enough Night Sticks that can kill any nongood creature in the game except a Horizon Walker and creatures immune to magic.

Your items should probably include a Belt of Magnificense +6 from the Miniatures Handbook. For 200,000 gp it adds a +6 Enhancement bonus to all of your ability scores. A Cowl of Warding from Magic of Faerun is also almost necessary at this level, especially in a FR game. Also get a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification in the Draconomicon, and hire an NPC spellcaster to use Limited Wish to embed it for you (the standard fee would be 2410 gp). For cheese, get a Thought Bottle, spend 500 xp to store your xp total, use Miracle to put a +5 Inherent bonus on one of your ability scores, and then put your XP back to what the Thought Bottle has stored. Getting +5 to all of your ability scores costs only 3000 xp.

For your epic feats, the obvious choice would be Epic Spellcasting, and maybe get Multispell or even Bonus Domain if you can get the Destiny domain in Races of Destiny, to use DMM: Persist with Choose Destiny each day. Amaunator has Destiny written all over him, with domains like Nobility, Time, and Planning, so I don't see any reason to not add that domain to what he could grant.

Pulsecode
2009-07-11, 03:55 AM
..wow

You know, I'd say these forums are amongst the most helpful I've come across.

Thank you - very much. An awful lot to think about there, and some good suggestions. I think I'll be dropping the bigger 'for cheese:' suggestions, scary as they are, but the basic level-by-level structure is very tempting, especially since it's already all laid out!

I notice it's human - how integral is that? There's the extra feat, obviously, but there seem to be a good few empty feat slots lying around. Aasimar isn't integral to the character concept, though I'd like it. I'm happy to go with Human if needs be, though, an alternate version of the very early character background has already sprung to mind which patches over the difference. I also notice it goes up to level 24 - I still have one level to play with? I hope so, as I'd still like to slip Master of Masks in there somewhere.

Thank you very much indeed. :smallsmile:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-11, 04:19 AM
I'd completely forgotten what race you were planning on using, I'm just in the habit of presenting a build as Human if I can't remember a preference. Aasimar isn't worth the +1 LA unless you can buy it off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), or the +0 LA version (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) is decent, or maybe even go with the Lesser version from the back of PGtF, which gets everything except the Outsider creature type for no LA.

I don't know why I stopped at 24, I thought for some reason that's what level you were starting at. Sunmaster isn't really worth taking more than seven levels of, maybe even fewer. I'd probably switch to Sunmaster 1-4/ Master of Masks 1-4// Fighter 12-18/ (Cloistered) Cleric 11th at levels 18-25, with Practiced Spellcaster as one of your pre-epic feats.