New Rogue System - Adapted from World of Warcraft

[Vikingkingq]

Ok, this is a really long post, so if you're not up for reading it, stop now. If you want to make your rogues more interesting to play, read on. Suggestions are both welcome and urgently needed.

BTW - obviously balancing is needed, especially in the area of Hit Points. I could really use some suggestions there. I'm also not sure how to work out the levels and feats required to gain these abilities.

BTW - I'm working on a similar adaptation of warriors.

[Vikingkingq]

Replace Move Silently/Hide with Stealth
Have it be a bit like DC for save v. wizard spells. Rogue level + Dex Bonus + 10, v. their spot + level (only within line of sight and within 15 feet). Once in stealth, rogue is effectively invisible unless spotted, but any damage the rogue incurs (through the environment or area of effect damage or rolling a 1). Similarly, any attack or spell that causes damage over a number of rounds will prevent the rogue from entering stealth. Casting a see invisibility spell or taking a potion to that effect adds +10 to the roll.

Rogues in stealth can only move at ½ base speed. However, rogues can increase that speed with the feat Camouflage.

A standard action or attack action will cause a rogue to drop out of stealth. Once out of stealth, a rogue cannot enter it for 5 rounds. A rogue cannot enter stealth if they have either dealt or received damage in the past 5 rounds.

Create an energy pool.
Similar to the ki used by ninjas and monks, energy represents the rogue’s spiritual and physical life-force, that they have learned to focus, manipulate, and channel. Some scholars theorize that rogue energy is created by linking one’s internal lifeforce to the Shadow plane, literally becoming one with the shadows. Rogues have to go through rigorous training and harrowing rites of passage to become true “flash men,” and never reveal the secret of the brotherhood of thieves even in the midst of torture.

Energy pool is 100 points, and regenerates at the rate of 20 points every other round. At full energy, a rogue appears to be flush with health, younger than their years, and more physically fit than they normally are. As they spend energy, rogues appear to weaken and fatigue, age, and become frail – this is deceptive. Rogues normally live at a peak of physical and mental conditioning far above the human norm; thus, dropping down to the level or ordinary people seems to be withering.

As rogues expend energy, gather charges, and release them, they begin to release a brilliant array of pyrotechnics. Weapons leave trails of brilliant purples, reds, and oranges; fists are enveloped in yellows and blues, special attacks detonate in multicolored explosions of light.

[Vikingkingq]

As part of their training, rogues learn to use the advantage of surprise to unleash devastating attacks upon unsuspecting targets. Each of these attacks is designed for special circumstances – Cheap Shot is used primarily to keep opponents incapacitated, such as a guard during a robbery; Ambush is used to assure a quick death, to allow the rogue to slip back into the shadows; Garrote is reserved for opponents so fierce that a rogue’s only chance of victory is to slowly wear them down through a thousand cuts.

(60 Energy Points) Cheap Shot- from stealth, the rogue can make a sub-dural sneak attack that does no damage. If the attack succeeds, the victim is stunned for x number of rounds (by level or by success of attack?). This stun does not break if the victim is attacked. Each turn, the victim makes a Fort Check v. DC 10 + rogue level to break out of the stun. Requires a melee weapon. Adds two combo points.
(60 EP) Ambush - from stealth, a rogue can make a sneak attack from behind the victim that, if it succeeds, does base damage plus standard sneak attack d6s. Requires a light melee weapon, preferably a piercing weapons (slashing gets ½ normal dice). Adds a combo point.
(50 EP)Garrote - from stealth, a rogue can make a sneak attack from behind the victim, that if it succeeds, does damage over time - 2/4/6/8 points per round for 10 rounds. Adds a combo point.

[Vikingkingq]

(45 EP) Sinister Strike - as a normal attack, the rogue can add their BAB to their damage. This attack is considered a magical weapon, similar to a monk's ki strike. This attack can only be done in front of the opponent, and will not stack with other abilities (I.E, no sinister strike gouge) Requires a melee weapon. Adds a combo point.
(45 EP) Gouge - as a normal attack, a rogue can stun their opponent, similar to a monk's stunning fist, but stunning for 2 rounds or until damaged. This attack can only be done in front of the opponent, will not stack with other abilities, and has a 3 round cooldown. Requires melee weapon. Adds a combo point.
(60 EP) Backstab - if a rogue is behind their opponent, they can attempt to backstab for 150% of their normal attack's damage plus 5/10/15/20 damage. Requires a light melee weapon, preferably a piercing weapons (slashing gets ½ normal bonus). Adds a combo point.

[Vikingkingq]

No combo points can be shared or saved when executing a finishing move. A rogue selects 1 finishing move and immediately spends as many combo points as they have generated.
(25 EP) Expose Armor - the rogue has learned to direct their strikes in such a way as to damage their opponents armor, cutting straps, opening gaps, etc. For every combo point generated, a rogue can decrease the armor bonus to AC of their opponent by 1 – i.e, 1/2/3/4/5. Requires melee weapon.
(25 EP) Rupture - the rogue has learned to open bleeding wounds in their opponent that continue to damage them long after the attack. For each combo point generated, the rogue causes 1/2/3/4/5 points of damage per round for the next 10 rounds. Stacks with garrote. Requires a melee weapon.
(25 EP) Kidney Shot - the rogue has learned how to perform an attack to the victim's "voolnerables" that is so painful that the opponent is stunned for 2/3/4/5/6 rounds, with the normal fort saves to snap out. Damage does not break the stun. Requires a melee weapon.
(35 EP) Eviscerate - the rogue has learned how to gather the momentum gained from their previous attacks into a powerful thrust that damages their opponent's insides, causing a burst of damage. 1/2/3/4/5 d of damage (alters by level, say start at d3 and move up to d6?).
(25 EP) Slice and Dice - momentum breeds momentum, and a rogue has learned to use successful attacks to boost their attack speed. Rogue gains an extra (attack? standard action?) for the next 1/2/3/4/5 rounds.

[Vikingkingq]

In addition to their roles as assassins and the skills they have learned to become specialized assassins, rogues have always clung to their traditional pastime of theft and larceny. Just as the shadows can conceal a knife, so can they conceal a lock pick…
(65 EP) Sap – while a Cheap Shot keeps a victim from acting, it leaves them very much awake and ready to kill the thief who turns his back too long. Thus, rogues have learned how to strike their opponent with a sap in such a way that it sends them into a state of unconsciousness on their feet. If the attack is successful, the target falls into a sleep for 5/7/9 rounds – any damage will bring the target out of his/her slumber. This attack only works against humans and humanoid creatures, given the limitations of physiognomy. Requires a sap.
(30 EP) Distraction – even the sneakiest rogue finds himself in a situation where the guards are too close for him to sneak by without some help. That’s where the Distracto-Magick 2000 comes in. Thanks to a bulk purchase agreement with a truly deranged gnome illusionist/enchanter, rogues have gotten their hands on a magical device that mesmerizes all targets within 30 feet to look at the Distracto-Magic, a small, ball- like object. Has a circular area of affect. If they fail v. a will check of DC 15, they must do nothing but stare at the ball for 2 rounds.
(0 EP) Vanish – 5 times per day, a rogue can automatically slip into stealth even in the middle of combat by throwing down a smoke bomb and hiding in the confusion. This move qualifies as a free action, and requires the expenditure of Flash Powder. For 2 rounds, the rogue’s stealth level is increased by 10, but any damage over time or area of attack can still bring him out of stealth.
(0 EP) Trapfinding – as SRD.
(0 EP) Blind – 5 times per day. As Master Kang says, “the hands can’t hit what the eyes can’t see.” A smart rogue values being unseen, and seeks to remain so. Thus, when the tide of battle turn against the rogue, he reserves this move as a desperation retreat. Using Blinding Powder, which is created through a secret recipe using the rare herb Fadeleaf, the rogue executes a special attack, which if it lands, causes the victim to be blinded for two rounds, or if struck, whichever comes first.
(0 EP) Sprint – 5 times a day, a rogue can boost his movement speed to 45/48/51 ft per round for 3 rounds.

[Vikingkingq]

While rogues can be of any race, nationality, and alignment, they are almost entirely individualistic in nature. Lone wolves by habit and inclination, some take to roguery out of economic necessity, others out of greed, others out of desire for adventure. Some come to the craft as self-taught amateurs who felt something within them make a connection to a larger spirit, some were trained by a family member or guardian, others were inducted by other rogues.

However, the necessities of war, the state, and increasingly sophisticated economy and technology have caused rogues to band together in ever increasingly complicated organizations. From the simple band of thugs, to the neighborhood gang, to the formal thieves’ guild, there has arrived upon the scene national and trans-nation organization of rogues, each devoted to different means and ends. Some are well-known, some are not; here are some of the most prominent:
The Defias Brotherhood
SI:7
The Ravenholdt League

[Vikingkingq]

Defias Brotherhood – formed initially by the Stonemason’s Guild of Stormwind, the Defias began as a resistance movement dedicated to overthrowing the kingdom of Azeroth. A young and growing organization, the Defias has operations in Northshire, Goldshire, Duskwood, and Westfall, and extensive connections with other criminal and non-criminal organizations, such as the Bloodsail Pirates, and the Venture Company.

The strength of the Defias is in daring and pugnacity: they’ll go anywhere and fight anyone to hang on to even the slightest of toeholds. As such, members of the Defias are better close-combat fighters than any others, skilled at the art of ambush and raid.

At the moment, the Defias stand at a crossroads: even as they gain in power and come closer to being able to accomplish their goal, their original strength of purpose is in danger of being lost. Once a band of idealistic rebels, many of the Defias’ inner circle have bargained away their souls to higher powers, as the injustice they suffered turns into hatred and spite. Which way will you push the Defias, towards freedom or domination?

As such, experienced members of the Defias gain access to the following feats:

(40 EP) Low Blow – A dirty fighter lives to be an old fighter – Defias learn to aim for tendons, nerve clusters, how to twist their blades to open wounds wider. Low Blow acts like Sinister Strike in its requirements, and does not stack with other special moves, but does 150% weapon damage and slows the target's movement speed by 30% for 2 rounds. Adds a combo point.
(10 EP) Leap Kick - The rogue executes a flying kick, effectively allowing him a single, improved unarmed (d6) attack from within his full movement range, effectively closing the distance between the rogue and his target with a single blow. However, a miss causes the rogue to take falling damage and go prone.
(10 EP) Sweep Kick – The rogue knocks his enemy off his feet with a swift kick to the back of the knee, effectively stunning him for 2 rounds.
(60 EP) Wall of Blades – the rogue erupts in a flurry of parries, feints, making it virtually impossible to hit him. Adds +4 AC to a parry attempt.

Special Defias Items:
Defias Mask – although all Defias wear a scarlet mask, the careful observer can tell a Defias’ rank by the quality and material of their masks. The ranks go as follows: burlap, linen, cotton, silk, magecloth, runecloth, felcloth, and mooncloth.
Defias Rapier – Rapier of Speed +2, + 1 to agility. These rapiers are rare, and given only as rewards for some great feat of bravery.
Thief’s Blade – Keen Rapier +2, allows rogue to reroll all 1s on ambush and eviscerate die. These rapiers are even rarer, and only given for a Defias who kills an officer of the crown.
Cruel Barb – Wounding Falchion +3, personal blade of Edwin VanCleef. If a rogue carries the blade, it provides the benefit of one of the following: Weapon Finesse (Falchion), Weapon Focus (Falchion), Weapon Specialization (Falchion), or a Greater version of the above, depending on what feats the rogue does not have.
Defias Leathers – Studded Leather +3, this set of inky-black leathers is given out, piece-by-piece as a reward for saving the life of a fellow Defias. Each item acts like a +1 (stacking) set of Studded Leather, but in combination and worn by a rogue, the set provides the following benefits: Spell Resistance 15, +2 to all attack rolls made with daggers, and +1 to all damage rolls.

Most-Wanted Defias:
Klaven Mortwake – Klaven started out as a proud member of the Defias, liaison between the Brotherhood and their strange allies in the Venture Merchant Venture Company. However, after a few months of working with mysterious shipments from Stranglethorn Vale, Klaven went mad and withdrew within an abandoned watch tower in a remote corner of Westfall, to continue whatever perverse machinations the Venture Co. has in mind.
Edwin VanCleef – One of the most controversial figures in Azeroth, VanCleef began his career as head of the Stonemason’s Guild of Stormwind. Called upon to rebuild the city, VanCleef was outraged when the king refused to pay what he had promised. After harshly criticizing the king, VanCleef and many members of the Guild were forced to flee the city to avoid arrest. In a small clearing in the woods, these ordinary artisans vowed to overthrow the corrupt monarchy and establish a just society for all humans. Since then, VanCleef has brought his Brotherhood of the Defiant to the heights of power – but his methods have grown more and more cruel. Dispossessing the farmers of Westfall, allying with the Venture Co. and the Bloodsail Pirates – to VanCleef, these are necessary evils to be borne until the day of victory. What that day will bring may well depend on how well this unlikely revolutionary holds to his ideals and his conscience.
Captain Greenskin – Greenskin is unusual for a goblin in that he’s more interested in mayhem than money. He was one of the most talented “fixers” the Venture Co. ever employed to disrupt their financial rival’s operations, but too much of a loose cannon to suit the Board of Directors. They dispatched him to the backwaters of the Azeroth smuggling ring, and did him more of a favor than they thought. Greenskin isn’t the most ideologically pure Defias there is, but he’s probably the most enthusiastic – especially when he gets a chance to blow things up.
Mr. Smite– not many Tauren become rogues. They live in nomadic, pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer camps, and there’s not much to steal. Mr. Smite left the family hunting grounds to seek his fortune in Ratchet. Big and strong, he found steady work as a dockworker – until alcohol overwhelmed his common sense. Unused to heady brew, Mr. Smite became a mean drunk, and remained so until he woke up in an ally covered in the blood of a man he’d killed. Smite jumped on board a Defias smuggling ship the same day, and has sought death in battle ever since.
Cookie – GRGLLLRGRRRRGRGRLLLLL!

[Dhavaer]

It's interesting, I'll give you that.
It just doesn't seem balanced, though.
If you want to do it like this, it would be best to redo the other class in the same way.

[Vikingkingq]

Stormwind Intelligence 7 (SI:7) – “Good morning, Agent 21. This mission, should you chose to accept it, is of the utmost importance and secrecy. Should you be discovered, SI:7 will disavow all knowledge of your existence.” Some heroes get statues, some get legends – the men and women of SI:7 get a badge, a number, and a mission – protect the Kingdom of Azeroth from all enemies internal and external. Live, and you get a government pension and obscure retirement; die, and you get an anonymous star on the wall.

Outfitted with the best technology that human, dwarven, and gnomish minds and workshops can create, the field agents of SI:7 live on the cutting edge of stealth. If you see an SI:7 agent, that means they wanted you to see them. SI:7 agents operate wherever their government needs them to, in the home shires, behind enemy lines, or under the very noses of the Horde. They do the dirty work that keeps Azeroth’s citizens and soldiers safe at night, and they’re proud to do it.

As SI:7 is stretched further and further in keeping up with the war effort, its rogues are beginning to lose sight of the home front. The common people of Azeroth are unhappy with the monarchy, and they feel as if the government doesn’t care about their suffering – be it the hordes of kobolds in Northshire and Goldshire, the drought and famine in Westfall, or the spider infestation in Duskwood. Many ordinary field operatives can see this, but they don’t know which way to turn: defend the nation from the Horde and the Scourge, or make the nation worth defending?

The following feats are available to trusted operatives:
(30 EP) Silence Bomb - Throws a bomb that emits a muffling aura, causing an area of silence for 10 seconds that prevents all sounds from being heard, including all warrior attacks, sonic spells or spell-like abilities.. Can only be used 5/day.
(30 EP) Darkness Bomb - Throws a bomb that creates an area of darkness for 2 rounds. Within that area, the rogue can see with night-vision, whereas all others are affected as per the spell. Can only be used 5/day.
(50 EP) Now You See Me, Now You Don’t - Creates 2 split images of rogue on either side for 4 rounds, anyone attempting to hit the rogue with any non-area of effect spell or ability or attack must succeed in an intelligence/wisdom check v. DC 10 + rogue’s level. (0 EP) Shadow-Soul - this rogue is so attuned to the shadows that he/she has become partially one of them, giving them a 15% chance to blink when hit.

Special SI:7 Equipment
SI: 7 Badge – shaped like a shield and emblazoned with the blue and gold crest of Azeroth, this enamel and brass badge can be clipped to a lapel or belt or worn about the neck. The badge entitles the wearer to call upon local constabularies, militias, and military units for assistance, conduct searches of private premises, begin and conclude official inquiries, and make arrests.
Catseye Goggles – when slipped over the eyes, these mystical lenses allow the operative greatly increased abilities of perception, crucial to the art of infiltration. Provides the operative with: darkvision 60ft, see invisibility, spot +4, search +4.
Blades of Cunning– vorpal shortsword +2. this matched set of shortswords, when worn by a rogue, provide +2 to agility.
SI:7 Infiltration Suit – studded leather of improved shadow, silent moves, slick +2.This suit of leather is so light and flexible, that far from impairing a rogue’s abilities, it enhances them, making the rogue harder to see or hear, and allowing him to wiggle free of the tightest of bonds.

SI:7 Operatives:
Mathias Shaw – head of SI:7. Mathias is an old man by SI:7 standards, pushing into his late 60’s. Mathias started as a runner boy back in the first Great War, and was one of the few who survived the fall of Stormwind and fled to Lordaeron with Lothar. Mathias founded SI:7, back then known as Alliance Military Intelligence, and was responsible for several major coups – ferreting out new of the defection of Gul’dan, guiding the Alliance forces through secret passageways into Blackrock Spire, and learning of the Dark Portal’s whereabouts. Since then, Mathias has presided over the re-establishment of Stormwind, and the expansion of a vast network of operatives, paralleling the keep-and-tower system of Stormwind’s military. As time went on, Mathias became less and less influential in court, as policies he opposed (the internment of the Orcs, stiffing the Stonemasons, Azeroth’s leaving the Alliance) lead to failures he became blamed for. Despite calls for him to retire, Mathias clings to his post, for only he can see how tenuous the reborn Stormwind really is – and the gathering presence of the Defias, the rash of monstrous infiltrations, the disappearance of the king, and the Orcish presence in Redridge all seem part of some grand conspiracy.
Resnik “The Shiv”– one of the strangest figures in SI:7, Resnik is one of the few ex-Horde members to find acceptance within the ranks of the Alliance. His parents were Horde conscripts who were interned after the War, and Resnik war born in one of the camps. Resnik was recruited by SI:7 as part of a new program to hire horde-race operatives capable of infiltrating the enemy. When the merchant princes of Undermine successfully threw off the chains of oppression and began their economic expansion, Resnik became a naturally important figure in dealing with one of the most important forces on either continent. Rising to the position of second-in-command, Resnik’s duties include the recruitment of all non-human operatives into SI:7, from gnomes and dwarves to Night Elves. Resnik is ambitious, loyal, and a sarcastic son of a bitch. He’s not as focused on the big picture as his boss, but it’s Resnik who know what’s going on the ground, which operatives are where, and how they’re getting on.
Tony Montano - as far as the ordinary people of Duskwood is concerned, Tony Montano’s dead; after all, they saw him die. Hung by the neck to within an inch of his life, Tony was cut down and whisked away in the middle of the night. He found himself in a dark room with Mathias Shaw. Master Shaw told Tony about second chances, and how the most important thing is that you only get one. Since then, Tony has been the secret head of SI:7’s Informants Division – if you’re a double agent, a snitch, or a sleeper, you answer to M. If you don’t, you wind up in a shallow grave.
Osborne the Night Man - Obsorne the Night Man is just a legend. No one by that name realty exists. And you certainly didn’t see him lounging around the slums of Stormwind. Move along.

[Vikingkingq]

Ravenholdt League – located in the remote hills of Hillsbrad, the mysterious Manor of the Baron Ravenholdt opens its doors to a select few rogues who are deemed to show the ability, and more importantly, the panache of a true thief. What Defias do for freedom and SI:7 does for love of country, Ravenholdt Assassins do it out of the pure love of an artist for his art. Secluded from the affairs of the world, Ravenholdt pursues the craft of the shadows with a single-minded zeal.

A Ravenholdt assassin is a feared and prized commodity: desired by kings, warlords, mafia chieftains, and merchant barons alike. Their price is non-negotiable, and they never fail to accomplish their mission. Most Ravenholdts like in the Manor itself, or in the secret underground village dug into the foothills of the Arathi Mountains, and trouble themselves little with the outside world.

Lately, however, the outside world has become difficult to ignore: the fall of Lordaeron shattered many of Ravenholdt’s more lucrative operations, the Horde prowl openly through the hills and dales of their homeland, and the two-legged vermin that call themselves the Syndicate befoul their very doorstep. But which way to turn – the Horde or the Alliance? Or is there a kernel of a future peace to be defended in the idea of thieves sticking with thieves, no matter the color of their skin?

The following feats are available to those rogues who follow the path of Ravenholdt:
(40 EP)Vulnerable Positioning - Stuns target for 1 round and makes them spin 180 degrees. Causes no damage, but doubles crit range on next attack. Awards no combo points.
(45 EP)Strangle: requires the rogue to be within melee range and in front of the victim. The rogue chokes his opponent, causing the victim to be stunned and to take 1 Con damage every round. Target has a chance to break the stun v. a contested strength roll.
(10 EP)Twist the Knife – once per day, following a successful sneak attack, the rogue can open up the wound he has just left, preventing the victim from being healed for 24 hours.
(O EP)Life’s Blood – true devotees of the assassin's art learn to push the boundaries of their craft to its extreme. With this feat, a rogue learns to add a 6th combat point to his finishing moves.

Trade Secrets of Ravenholdt :

Ebon Mask – the use of the mask as a symbol of belonging to a brotherhood of thieves might be popularized by the Defias Brotherhood and the Syndicate, but it began with the Ravenholdt League. Unlike their parvenu counterparts, members of Ravenholdt do not wear their masks in broad daylight; rather, they only don them during the execution of a contract, to signify that it is not the individual who kills but Ravenholdt itself. Hence, the sight of a black mask is truly terrifying to all those who know of the infamous reputation of Ravenholdt. Anyone who sees the Ebon Mask who is a native or long-time resident of the Eastern Kingdoms must roll Will v. DC 17 or become shaken.
Ravenholdt Stiletto– shortsword + 3 frost burst. +2 to agility. Upon a successful ambush or backstab, the Ravenholdt Stiletto causes the victim to be fatigued, unless they succeed in a Fort. Save v. DC 17.
Cat’s Claws – tigers claws +2. These retractable tigers claws do 1d6 damage, more than regular claws. They provide a +2 bonus to all Grapple checks, and a +1 bonus to Climb.
Ravenholdt Hauberk– glamered studded leather of etherealness +3. This suit of armor can appear to be anything, from workman’s clothes to a fine suit to robes of state – but always black. At a moments notice, the suit can allow the rogue to pass through walls unseen to strike his target down.

Ravenholdt’s Roll of Infamy:

Fahrad, Grandmaster of the Academy – Before the war, Fahrad was just another rogue in the vast, sprawling metropolis of Dalaran. You needed to be a good rogue to survive in a city ruled by men with power and intellect beyond mortal ken, and he was a good thief indeed. When the Scourge came, when civilization itself fell apart around him, Fahrad was not one of those many who fled to the safety of the South. Fahrad stayed, and something inside him changed, as he lived in the Scourge-infested ruins of Dalaran – he was as a blade tempered in the hottest fire in existence, and sharpened to beyond a razor’s edge. Defias infiltrators looking for valuables came across Fahrad – lying across a mound of gold, surrounded by a vast tangle of evicerated Scourge. Jorach knew talent when he saw it, and Fahrad rose quickly through the ranks – helping to rebuild the Ravenholdt League, and train a new generation of Defias. Fahrad is higher now than he was, but there is a look in his eyes, a fierceness that shows part of him is still living in the ruins of Dalaran.
Lord Jorach Ravenholdt, Lord of Ravenholdt Manor– Jorach is an old man, old enough to remember the First Great War. Kings have come and gone, Alliances have come and gone, nations have come and gone, whole peoples have come and gone, but Ravenholdt endures, in no small part because Lord Jorach is one of the most vicious, cunning men ever to draw breath – when the Horde came to Hillsbrad, whole regiments of scouts went missing in his hills; when the Scourge came to Lordaeron, their legions of undead were forced to flow around the little pocket of safety he created for the people of Hillsbrad. Jorach feels the aches in his bones more than he used to, but he is like an old wolf – as long as there are teeth in his mouth, he will bite.
Master Kang – Kang was, many years ago, a Blademaster of the Burning Blade Clan. He served with honor and with pride, never seeing the red veil in front of his eyes. One day it lifted, as he stood over the corpse of a youthful conscript he had cut down for sport. Revulsion rose up in him, and he fled the battlefield in a daze. Despite Thrall’s call to form a new Horde, Kang swore an oath never to lift a blade again in anger against any living creature. He traveled to Ravenholdt Manor and offered to teach the pupils of the Manor the art of bare-handed self-defense, so that there would be no more dead young men. Kang is a fierce instructor, bu a kind one.
Wulf the Wolf – Wulf is the business manager of the League. Every contract is approved and assigned by him, all loot is fenced through him, and all gear is requisitioned through him (although the creepy gnome and dwarf in the basement are the one making the stuff). But how loyal is a man who sees the world as so many gold and silver?

[Thomas]

A commendable amount of work put into it, but for D&D 3.5, this would be a step BACKWARD.

The idea in D&D was to remove all the arbitrary and mechanically different special abilities of the various classes, and use a few basic mechanics that they all share (feats, spellcasting, skills). AD&D had various special abilities for each class, all with different mechanics, something like this here.

Also, yes, to make any sense, you'd have to re-work every single class, and balancing out that sort of work can't be done on an amateur or volunteer basis.

[Vikingkingq]

I get your point, but on the other hand, I think we've gone too far in that direction. While spellcasters have a diverse array of things to do, I feel that melee classes are often generic as hell - rogues get into flanking and sneak attack, warriors just charge, maybe sunder or disarm or trip or grapple, etc. but it's all rote and it's all generic. And you do the same damn thing each round, more or less. This way, you have different maneuvers, different strategies.

This way, playing a rogue actually feels distinctive.

[Sciurusaurus]

I get your point, but on the other hand, I think we've gone too far in that direction. While spellcasters have a diverse array of things to do, I feel that melee classes are often generic as hell - rogues get into flanking and sneak attack, warriors just charge, maybe sunder or disarm or trip or grapple, etc. but it's all rote and it's all generic. And you do the same damn thing each round, more or less. This way, you have different maneuvers, different strategies.

This way, playing a rogue actually feels distinctive.

Umm... rogue isn't a melee class. It does have certain combat abilities, but if you are to reduce the focus of rogue to one word, I'd say "skill class" would be far more correct.

Of course, this is also dependent on how you play the game.

Except in campaigns where several people have taken rogue levels, I've not come across the problem with lack of distinctiveness for the rogue.

If it's combat you're looking for, rogue should not be your first choice. The you should focus on the warriors. Between Fighter, Paladin, Ranger and (if you play with psionics) Psychic Warrior, there are a lot of different options and possible strategies. Throw in prestige classes, and warriors (melee or ranged) are a far cry from only "charge, sunder, disarm and trip".

Rogues can do combat (perhaps a bit too well if they are good at getting into flanking positions), but that is NOT the focus of the class.

To comment more directly on your changes :

I find them to be very far from "D&D" rules both mechanically and thematically. The energy pool and spiritual source of a rogue's power is very dissimilar to the "mundane" rogue in D&D. This would be doubly true if the warrior is built on the same basic philosophy.

That said, I can see both the potential in your ideas, and the amount of work you have put in it. But I wonder if you would be better off with a D20 variant that is clearly not D&D than trying to make it seem like D&D when it is clearly different from D&D.

I think it could be cool to play. But I also think it would be more fair both to the game and to the players (who will go into the game with certain expectations) to talk about it as a D20 system, not D&D.

[Jerthanis]

Having lots of abilities is not the same as having lots of strategies. In World of Warcraft, you'd fight often enough that a pattern would emerge in your skill usage, you'd discover which abilities work and which don't work so well. I sorta figure the same sort of thing would happen from having so many unique special, almost supernatual, abilities to choose from. Certain abilities would stand out over time and a rogue would begin to preform those abilities in a certain order by rote, just like how it is now, but with more numbers and complications.

If you like warcraft so much, why not play using the Warcraft setting manual? If it's more about emulating world of warcraft, why not just play World of Warcraft instead? If you fill your non WoW time with games you play with friends, but still can't get enough WoW, pick op the CCG. I appreciate how much work you probably put into this, and I think such enthusiasm is good, but it might be less work with a better reward just to play D&D like D&D, and play WoW like WoW, and not try to bleed one into the other.

Still, since you're already finished, you may as well have fun giving it a few test runs. Good luck

[Jothki]

Bear in mind that you are translating back into D&D a class that was of necessity poorly translated into MMORPG form. Since it is hard to apply a rogue's utility to a MMORPG but most designers (<3 Guild Wars) felt obligated to make a rogue class anyway, they were converted to pure dps (which also forced fighters to be gimped in damage dealing, annoyingly). If you want a melee damage dealer in D&D, just use a real melee class.

[idksocrates]

If you want to make a Wow variant of the rogue, I would just take a few of the abilities of the rogue and make them special abilities of the rogue. You can also make it that they can only be used once every other round or so, only because a Ki pool doesn't fit with dungeons and dragons. Spells and abilities in dnd is usually based on a day-by-day basis, not the ability to completely recharge all abilities in 1 minute.

And, many of the abilities you proposed are almost exactly what the rogue has. If you make movesilently a will save, your effectively giving the rogue free ranks for move silenlty, and skill mastery. A rogue who specializes in move silently is invisible anyway. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I also noticed that you keep saying "must be in front of your opponent"/"must be in back of your opponent". This concept is fine in Wow, but it doesn't work in Dnd. In Dnd combat, characters are constantly dodging and weaving in combat. Unless your using the face variant from unearthed arcana, it doesn't work that way. the closest definition to "back" in Dnd is when an opponent is flat-footed, or flanked, which is exactly when a normal sneak attack can be performed.

[Vikingkingq]

Umm... rogue isn't a melee class. It does have certain combat abilities, but if you are to reduce the focus of rogue to one word, I'd say "skill class" would be far more correct.

Of course, this is also dependent on how you play the game.

Except in campaigns where several people have taken rogue levels, I've not come across the problem with lack of distinctiveness for the rogue.

If it's combat you're looking for, rogue should not be your first choice. The you should focus on the warriors. Between Fighter, Paladin, Ranger and (if you play with psionics) Psychic Warrior, there are a lot of different options and possible strategies. Throw in prestige classes, and warriors (melee or ranged) are a far cry from only "charge, sunder, disarm and trip".

Rogues can do combat (perhaps a bit too well if they are good at getting into flanking positions), but that is NOT the focus of the class.

To comment more directly on your changes :

I find them to be very far from "D&D" rules both mechanically and thematically. The energy pool and spiritual source of a rogue's power is very dissimilar to the "mundane" rogue in D&D. This would be doubly true if the warrior is built on the same basic philosophy.

That said, I can see both the potential in your ideas, and the amount of work you have put in it. But I wonder if you would be better off with a D20 variant that is clearly not D&D than trying to make it seem like D&D when it is clearly different from D&D.

I think it could be cool to play. But I also think it would be more fair both to the game and to the players (who will go into the game with certain expectations) to talk about it as a D20 system, not D&D.

Ok, I get what you're saying ; maybe it's just that, while I love playing rogues, I feel that their gameplay in combat gets rather monotonous - every sneak attack is the same as the last. Mages get lots of different things they can do, but rogues (and to a lesser extent, fighters) are limited to attacking.

As for these rules, you don't have to use them for regular D&D. There is a Warcraft and a World of Warcraft d20 system, it's just not as distinctive as I would have liked.
Using this just for those settings would be fine for me.

[Vikingkingq]

Having lots of abilities is not the same as having lots of strategies. In World of Warcraft, you'd fight often enough that a pattern would emerge in your skill usage, you'd discover which abilities work and which don't work so well. I sorta figure the same sort of thing would happen from having so many unique special, almost supernatual, abilities to choose from. Certain abilities would stand out over time and a rogue would begin to preform those abilities in a certain order by rote, just like how it is now, but with more numbers and complications.

If you like warcraft so much, why not play using the Warcraft setting manual? If it's more about emulating world of warcraft, why not just play World of Warcraft instead? If you fill your non WoW time with games you play with friends, but still can't get enough WoW, pick op the CCG. I appreciate how much work you probably put into this, and I think such enthusiasm is good, but it might be less work with a better reward just to play D&D like D&D, and play WoW like WoW, and not try to bleed one into the other.

Still, since you're already finished, you may as well have fun giving it a few test runs. Good luck

While it's true that certain abilities would stand out over time, the same thing is true of sneak attack - any variety has to be better than just one option.

I've checked out the WoW setting manual, and I didn't think it was that different from regular D&D - that's why I did this, to give a more flavorful option.

[Thomas]

Hamstring and similar feats (Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer) give plenty of variety to sneak attack.

[Thomas]

As for fighters, check out Complete Warrior again. Tactical feats, combat style feats, and the various other feats make for infinite variety. A fighter can rush into combat (for a huge damage bonus and AC penalty), sundering weapons and shields and cleaving into their unfortunate owners upon success; or knock opponents down with a double blow from hammer and axe; or disarm opponents with a successful double blow from sword and dagger; or ride over opponents on a mighty charger; or pin enemies into trees and walls with arrows; or disarm them with throwing daggers...

Boring? Er, sure. Right.

[Vikingkingq]

If you want to make a Wow variant of the rogue, I would just take a few of the abilities of the rogue and make them special abilities of the rogue. You can also make it that they can only be used once every other round or so, only because a Ki pool doesn't fit with dungeons and dragons. Spells and abilities in dnd is usually based on a day-by-day basis, not the ability to completely recharge all abilities in 1 minute.

And, many of the abilities you proposed are almost exactly what the rogue has. If you make movesilently a will save, your effectively giving the rogue free ranks for move silenlty, and skill mastery. A rogue who specializes in move silently is invisible anyway. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I also noticed that you keep saying "must be in front of your opponent"/"must be in back of your opponent". This concept is fine in Wow, but it doesn't work in Dnd. In Dnd combat, characters are constantly dodging and weaving in combat. Unless your using the face variant from unearthed arcana, it doesn't work that way. the closest definition to "back" in Dnd is when an opponent is flat-footed, or flanked, which is exactly when a normal sneak attack can be performed.

Good points. First off, what do you think about a ki pool system similar to that of ninjas? Theirs' is more x/day than this is, but do you think that version would work.

As for the move silently thing - I don't want to give free ranks in move silently; one option would be to make the rogue level bonus be contingent on having as many ranks in Steatlh skill as their level/max. they can have for their level?

Especially if you're using miniatures, but even if you're not, I don't think facing rules are too hard. Crimminy, you already have to figure facing out when gaze attacks come into play, so why not formulize them.

Also, even if you just stick with flanking, at least you know have more options than the 1.

[Vikingkingq]

As for fighters, check out Complete Warrior again. Tactical feats, combat style feats, and the various other feats make for infinite variety. A fighter can rush into combat (for a huge damage bonus and AC penalty), sundering weapons and shields and cleaving into their unfortunate owners upon success; or knock opponents down with a double blow from hammer and axe; or disarm opponents with a successful double blow from sword and dagger; or ride over opponents on a mighty charger; or pin enemies into trees and walls with arrows; or disarm them with throwing daggers...

Boring? Er, sure. Right.

Don't get me wrong, the options are there. It just annoys me that it's not really built into the class, and I've played with a lot of fighters who just stuck with the big honking sword, weapon feats, and cleave.

The Warrior version of this treatment focuses on stances, and certain abilities requiring certain stances, and warriors having to switch between stances frequently in the course of a battle.

In my opinion, this provides something of a more trained aspect to the fighter, something that shows they're not just barbarians, they have specialized training in defined schools of combat.

[Thomas]

Crimminy, you already have to figure facing out when gaze attacks come into play, so why not formulize them.

Incorrect. They affect everyone within range and not behind a wall or other visual obstruction. There is never any facing in D&D combat.

[Thomas]

In my opinion, this provides something of a more trained aspect to the fighter, something that shows they're not just barbarians, they have specialized training in defined schools of combat.

But that's exactly what the feats do. Really, you must check out Complete Warrior. Feats are the way you personalize your characters in D&D - that was the whole point. (They kept going on and on about it before the release.)

[Vikingkingq]

Hamstring and similar feats (Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer) give plenty of variety to sneak attack.

You're right, they are there, but again, they're not intrinsic to the rogue class (Hell, move silently, hide, open locks, slieght of hand - all of these things can be done by any other class, turning them into a virtual thief).

[Vikingkingq]

Incorrect. They affect everyone within range and not behind a wall or other visual obstruction. There is never any facing in D&D combat.

That doesn't really make sense. If I'm standing behind a gorgon, I'm still affected by her gaze? For one thing, gaze attacks allow you to close your eyes, and look away from the
eyes, suggesting that there's some line of sight thing going on. So again, isn't facing important there? Unless I know which way she's facing, how do I know what direction I can look away?

[Thomas]

You're right, they are there, but again, they're not intrinsic to the rogue class (Hell, move silently, hide, open locks, slieght of hand - all of these things can be done by any other class, turning them into a virtual thief).

Yes, that's the idea of the skill system. One, single mechanic for all of it, to simplify and streamline things. Now you don't have to remember a ridiculous amount of special rules. (Move Silently 85%, Hide in Shadow 60%... elves have 5/6 chance to surprise if no non-elves are in the party... et cetera ad nauseam!)

The real issue here is that this system is totally useless until you recreate EVERY SINGLE CLASS with it. Then you have to look over the prestige classes, and probably discard them (because they would likely be useless and obsolete).

(Never mind that the whole system's flavor makes it entirely incompatible not only with specific settings, but with many styles of play.)

Looking over the abilities...

Are they feats? If they are, they are entirely unbalanced, every single one. You'd have to scrap all feats and replace them with similar abilities specific for every class. This is an entirely inordinate amount of work (you'd be better off creating a game system from scrap). With a party, using most of these abilities would result in the immediate death of a relatively helpless single (big or important) opponent - this seems to entirely unbalance the combat system.

Another issue are NPCs and monsters. All these abilities would bog down play unbearably when NPCs with class levels get involved. Monsters and their abilities would be relatively underpowered.




That doesn't really make sense. If I'm standing behind a gorgon, I'm still affected by her gaze? For one thing, gaze attacks allow you to close your eyes, and look away from the
eyes, suggesting that there's some line of sight thing going on. So again, isn't facing important there? Unless I know which way she's facing, how do I know what direction I can look away?

There is no LOS involved. Read the rules for gaze attacks (and the game in general). There is no facing in the game. Creatures are assumed to turn their head enough to have 360 degrees fields of vision in combat.

[Vikingkingq]

But that's exactly what the feats do. Really, you must check out Complete Warrior. Feats are the way you personalize your characters in D&D - that was the whole point. (They kept going on and on about it before the release.)

I've read it. I get the idea. What I'm saying is that, outside of proficiencies, there's no sense of a collective training process. You can cobble together a fighting style eventually, through feats, but a beginning fighter doesn't have those - he/she doesn't have any sign that they've attended a school of combat.

[Thomas]

I've read it. I get the idea. What I'm saying is that, outside of proficiencies, there's no sense of a collective training process. You can cobble together a fighting style eventually, through feats, but a beginning fighter doesn't have those - he/she doesn't have any sign that they've attended a school of combat.

Of course they do. That's what feat trees are all about.

A fighter aiming for the sword-and-dagger style in Complete Warrior will start down the TWF and Combat Expertise trees - that's fairly distinctive. They're going to use disarms and two weapons a lot.

A fighter aiming for the mounted combat tactical feat will take Mounted Combat, and maybe the Power Attack trees. They're going to fight mounted, using overruns and lance charges.

A fighter who wants to break enemy lines (and weapons!) with a huge sword takes Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, and Improved Bullrush, and goes for another two tactical feats. Another distinctive style!

Another fighter will focus on using a shield together with a weapon - there are at least three or four shield-based feats I can think of, and then you add the TWF feats (and probably Combat Expertise for the AC bonuses).

All of those characters will have extremely different fighting styles.

[Vikingkingq]

Yes, that's the idea of the skill system. One, single mechanic for all of it, to simplify and streamline things. Now you don't have to remember a ridiculous amount of special rules. (Move Silently 85%, Hide in Shadow 60%... elves have 5/6 chance to surprise if no non-elves are in the party... et cetera ad nauseam!)
Great, this simplifies it even more - no more move silently for hearing you, hide for seeing you - just stealth.



The real issue here is that this system is totally useless until you recreate EVERY SINGLE CLASS with it. Then you have to look over the prestige classes, and probably discard them (because they would likely be useless and obsolete).
I'm perfectly willing to recreate every single class, and there is plenty of potential for prestige classes based off WoW's talent system.


(Never mind that the whole system's flavor makes it entirely incompatible not only with specific settings, but with many styles of play.)

Looking over the abilities...

Are they feats? If they are, they are entirely unbalanced, every single one. You'd have to scrap all feats and replace them with similar abilities specific for every class. This is an entirely inordinate amount of work (you'd be better off creating a game system from scrap). With a party, using most of these abilities would result in the immediate death of a relatively helpless single (big or important) opponent - this seems to entirely unbalance the combat system.
Yeah, you'd have to monkey around with the class abilities, but I don't mind. Furthermore, it wouldn't be that imbalanced if you just increased Hit Dice and damage dice to compensate.


Another issue are NPCs and monsters. All these abilities would bog down play unbearably when NPCs with class levels get involved. Monsters and their abilities would be relatively underpowered.
This is a good point - some of this could be fixed by increasing the HD and damage of monsters, similar to when you need to up the CR of a particular monster you want the group to fight.



There is no LOS involved. Read the rules for gaze attacks (and the game in general). There is no facing in the game. Creatures are assumed to turn their head enough to have 360 degrees fields of vision in combat.
I get that there aren't any rules for facing. I just think that's stupid. Especially with humanoid monsters. Nothing with a humanoid bone structure can have 360 degree of vision.

[PaleAngel]

I've read it. I get the idea. What I'm saying is that, outside of proficiencies, there's no sense of a collective training process. You can cobble together a fighting style eventually, through feats, but a beginning fighter doesn't have those - he/she doesn't have any sign that they've attended a school of combat.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. First of all, a level 1 fighter starts play with two feats, three if human. That combination of feats puts them into an area where they have nigh-limitless custimization.

Human Fighter 1: Power attack, cleave, toughness
Big guy, likes to bowl over things with his greataxe, Learned his skills from a rough and tumble life on the streets in which his size led him naturally to trouble.

Elven Fighter: Weapon Finesse, Dodge. Fights mostly with a rapier, an elegant and dignified opponent who studied under the great dueling masters.

Etc, etc. As far as a sign that they "attended a school of combat" Not everyone has. Some fighters are professional soldiers, some are thugs, some are...whatever. Whether or not they learned from a master or personal experience is something decided by the flavor of the game and the characters background. Therefore, I find it odd that the class itself would perforce indicate "special fighter training"

[Thomas]

Great, this simplifies it even more - no more move silently for hearing you, hide for seeing you - just stealth.

That's exactly what it does not do. It creates different mechanics for different classes. How does a Fighter make a Move Silently check now? I can see Rangers getting their own Stealth feature, but how about Barbarians? Can you no longer take any cross-class skills? What about animals and monsters?

The issue with monsters isn't settle by HD - it's about the fact that their special abilities have been devalued. That would need a complete reworking of those abilities to change.

And no one says anything has a constant 360 field of vision. The game, however, assumes that during the 6-second combat round, you look all around yourself at some point. Moreover, since the characters are NOT taking turns acting during the round (it is the SAME 6 seconds, not 6 seconds split up between combatants), a facing system would create idiotic problems. Example:

Opponent is facing forward. Their initiative is 15. Mine is 20. I walk around them to stand behind them and use a special sneaky attack. They were, for some reason, unable to turn to face me and defend themselves while I was walking leisurely (at a speed of 30 ft. per round) to stab them in the back. In a real-time computer game, this is not an issue. In a turn-based game, it is a big issue.

[Vikingkingq]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. First of all, a level 1 fighter starts play with two feats, three if human. That combination of feats puts them into an area where they have nigh-limitless custimization.

Human Fighter 1: Power attack, cleave, toughness
Big guy, likes to bowl over things with his greataxe, Learned his skills from a rough and tumble life on the streets in which his size led him naturally to trouble.

Elven Fighter: Weapon Finesse, Dodge. Fights mostly with a rapier, an elegant and dignified opponent who studied under the great dueling masters.

Etc, etc. As far as a sign that they "attended a school of combat" Not everyone has. Some fighters are professional soldiers, some are thugs, some are...whatever. Whether or not they learned from a master or personal experience is something decided by the flavor of the game and the characters background. Therefore, I find it odd that the class itself would perforce indicate "special fighter training"

Then here's my question - what makes a fighter different from a barbarian, who can learn to do all of the same things a fighter can do with feats?

[PaleAngel]

I get that there aren't any rules for facing. I just think that's stupid. Especially with humanoid monsters. Nothing with a humanoid bone structure can have 360 degree of vision.


It doesn't mean that. What it assumes (much like the assumption that you're moving around to try not to get hit, hence your DEX mod to AC) is that you're looking around to try not getting smacked in the back, that you're attempting to be aware of everything around you by taking quick glances back and forth while attempting to not expose yourself overmuch.

I understand it may not seem realistic to you, but it is a fantasy game, rather than a reality-sim, for a reason.

[PaleAngel]

Then here's my question - what makes a fighter different from a barbarian, who can learn to do all of the same things a fighter can do with feats?


A Barbarian, by his nature, cannot learn to do all the same things as a Fighter. This is reflected by the fact that the Fighter has more bonus feats to either specialize or diversify than any other class on the face of the earth.

At the same time, the barbarian gains other class benefits that reflect that class' favor without impeding on the fighters domain as a combat specialist/generalist depending on the build.

[Thomas]

Then here's my question - what makes a fighter different from a barbarian, who can learn to do all of the same things a fighter can do with feats?


No, the barbarian can't. The barbarian gets 6 feats by level 15. The fighter? 13. That's an entire tree of difference. Non-fighters have practically no chance of getting most of the tactical feats or combat style feats (and no hope of getting two!), and can't hope to get more than one feat tree. Often, they also need specific one-off (non-tree) feats to complement their own abilities. THAT is what makes fighters special.

[Vikingkingq]

That's exactly what it does not do. It creates different mechanics for different classes. How does a Fighter make a Move Silently check now? I can see Rangers getting their own Stealth feature, but how about Barbarians? Can you no longer take any cross-class skills? What about animals and monsters?

It would, but it would also make each of these classes more distinctive. Rogues don't cast spells (unless through multi-classing or magic wands, etc.), so why should every Tom, ****, and Harry get to copy rogue skills?


The issue with monsters isn't settle by HD - it's about the fact that their special abilities have been devalued. That would need a complete reworking of those abilities to change.
You just ramp up the damage of their special abilities. What's so hard about that?



And no one says anything has a constant 360 field of vision. The game, however, assumes that during the 6-second combat round, you look all around yourself at some point. Moreover, since the characters are NOT taking turns acting during the round (it is the SAME 6 seconds, not 6 seconds split up between combatants), a facing system would create idiotic problems. Example:

Opponent is facing forward. Their initiative is 15. Mine is 20. I walk around them to stand behind them and use a special sneaky attack. They were, for some reason, unable to turn to face me and defend themselves while I was walking leisurely (at a speed of 30 ft. per round) to stab them in the back. In a real-time computer game, this is not an issue. In a turn-based game, it is a big issue.
Well, I guess I don't see a problem here - you react before them, you roll behind them and stab them in the back before they can react. Flat-footed is also a mental state.

BTW - 30ft per round is not shabby speed. Try to walk 30 feet in six seconds.

[Vikingkingq]

A Barbarian, by his nature, cannot learn to do all the same things as a Fighter. This is reflected by the fact that the Fighter has more bonus feats to either specialize or diversify than any other class on the face of the earth.

At the same time, the barbarian gains other class benefits that reflect that class' favor without impeding on the fighters domain as a combat specialist/generalist depending on the build.

A Barbarian, it's true, can't do everything a fighter can. But, you could come pretty damned close. 7 feats is enough to pick up several specialist feat chains - Combat Expertise-Disarm-Feint-Trip, and Mounted Combat-Rideby Attack-Spirited Charge, for example.

[Vikingkingq]

No, the barbarian can't. The barbarian gets 6 feats by level 15. The fighter? 13. That's an entire tree of difference. Non-fighters have practically no chance of getting most of the tactical feats or combat style feats (and no hope of getting two!), and can't hope to get more than one feat tree. Often, they also need specific one-off (non-tree) feats to complement their own abilities. THAT is what makes fighters special.

A barbarian might get less, but the point is, he can still get a hell of a lot. With 7 feats by level 18, he could pick up several tactical feats:
Mounted Combat-Rideby Attack-Spirited Charge-Trample
leaves open 3 more feats, so you could grab Cavalry Charger, Formation Expert, and possibly Raptor School (if you had put in the right stats and skills.

Sure, a warrior could get a bunch more, but isn't it kind of weird that you could get this specialized?

Combat Style Feats:
While a barbarian couldn't have 2 combat style feats, they could have one and a tactical feat on top of that.

[Tobaselly]

I don't really get the energy pool/pyrotechnics bit, they don't really feel rogue like at all. Maybe as some sort of prestige class or something, but it feels to much like a monk/ninja/rogue combo instead of what I picture as a rogue.

And I can't really imagine any sort of rogue wanting to have any sort of glow or light around him as he backstabs someone. Thats just asking for trouble.

Also I don't think feats and gear should mix as per distraction. That should simply be a magic item that the rogue can use, instead of a magical item that the rogue can get as a feat.

What i would do for some of those is give the rogue additional sneak attack option (when making a sneak attack you can do this instead) or allow a rogue/monk multiclass instead.

[stainboy]

Um, you missed a very important rogue power.

Get Flame-Shocked and Die (0 energy points)

This power comes into effect automatically when the rogue attacks my shaman. Starting on his opponent's initiative, the rogue suffers fire damage and loses the ability to enter stealth. His hit points then drop to zero, as an Earthbind Totem shuts down his all-important mobility and Windfury and Frost Shock turn his squishy lightly-armored body into honor points.
Night elves receive a +2 racial bonus to this ability.


...Seriously, though, it seems like a bit too faithful a conversion to work in D&D. If you wanted to make rogues work more like the finesse-fighters they are in WoW, I'd suggest making a bunch of new feats to reflect the rogue's combat maneuvers (especially some stuns and attacks that require them to have hit the same target on previous rounds to set up) and give rogues some bonus feats in exchange for some of their abilities and skill points. The energy pool seems like it would be an unduly cumbersome mechanic in D&D.

[Vikingkingq]

Damn your overpowered Flame Shocks!

Seriously though, what would you say to a system that's more like the ninja's ki pool?

[stainboy]

I wouldn't say base it on the ninja's ki pool. That's uses/day, and it's designed for highly situational abilities like the ninja's 1-round-duration invisibility. It'd be pretty limiting for abilities you're going to want to do over and over in combat.

I'd suggest not limiting the abilities at all, but making sure the only abilities that aren't normal attacks require conditions to set up. For instance, Sinister Strike doesn't need to be represented in D&D, since it's basically a normal attack that generates a combo point. Slice and Dice or Expose Armor would be worth doing though, and could easily be done without an energy cost, since they require multiple attacks in previous rounds to set up.

[Vikingkingq]

Wait, how would that work?

[Vikingkingq]

What about something like a power point system - like a psion or psionic warrior?

[CharPixie]

You might want to check out Iron Heroes, for a game that implements recharging pools. And well, from what I can tell from just reading it. Indeed, I'm highly tempted to ran it next time I run a game; i'm just worried it's TOO combat centric.

[Vikingkingq]

You might want to check out Iron Heroes, for a game that implements recharging pools. And well, from what I can tell from just reading it. Indeed, I'm highly tempted to ran it next time I run a game; i'm just worried it's TOO combat centric.


Hmmmm....ok. Thanks. I will check that out.