PDA

View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Vitality Point/Wound Point Modification



Eldariel
2009-07-09, 09:26 PM
Well, some of you may have been following my campaign journal as of late and noticed that I'm presently using the Vitality Point/Wound Point (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) system over standard HP system.

While I vastly prefer this to standard HP system (mostly due to being somewhat more sensible), I feel there's a lot more potential to explore in the VP/WP model. I guess I'm looking for feedback or additional ideas on how to make damage more interesting and the combat more colorful (and more sensible while at it) with the technology enabled by VP/WP, before talking to my DM about implementing this stuff.


First, I know many people use critical tables for injury to limbs (something not modeled by the game engine by default at all, yet stuff like Regenerate exists...), but I feel VP/WP system offers a better alternative:

Make any attack that would deal WP damage do potentially crippling damage to a limb.

Basically, I suggest that every time an attack (not a burst attack though; anything with an attack roll will do) deals damage to WPs (be it thanks to Crit or just running out of VP), roll on a table to see if and which limb the attack hits (and yeah, one could assign WP to each limb as a fraction of the creature's total WP).

The table itself would need to be manufactured, of course, but given the clear number of limbs e.g. Humans have and quite obvious drawbacks for either losing a limb or losing ability to use a limb, this shouldn't be hard. I also think this could enable called shots better; normally allowing characters to do "called shots" to limbs just ends fight too quick, but if the called shot only has the extra effect if dealing WP damage, it could be a lot more fair while still possible (called shot would of course skip the roll on the table). For example, making an attack at -5 to make a called shot (or varying difficulty depending on target; -10 for head, -8 for torso, -7 for legs, -5 for arms) could work.

This would also allow for a bit more colorful critical abilities for weapons; presently VP/WP suffers of a bland weapon selection as critical multipliers don't exist, taking one of the three variable numbers on a weapon away making it a balance of two numbers (damage and crit range). Weapons with higher crit multiplier could retain their normal crit range and instead gain a higher chance of dealing crippling damage to a bodypart on crit.


Another idea I was thinking of was to tie Vitality Points to exhaustion:

Reaching certain point (say, losing half) of your vitality points could make you fatigued (to reflect that you are running out of energy and speed to actually avoid the big hits); would make vitality point damage more interesting when it can actually have an effect on what you can or can't do.

This'd then mean that instead if out of VP when taking WP damage, you'd be exhausted, which is of course a far worse a condition. It'd also mean that a WP character couldn't reach a further stage of exhaustion (outside, I suppose, Unconsciousness) so it may be worthwhile to craft either a middle form for Fatigue & Exhaustion, or a condition after Exhaustion - it's kinda weird how fear has 3 stages, but exhaustion only 2. This would of course make fatigue-inducing effects more powerful, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (save for certain stupidface rays).


Third is getting criticals:

As it stands, the only standard way to get criticals is to roll into your critical range and then confirm. I was thinking, what if exceeding target's AC by certain amount would also grant a crit?

It sorta makes sense that you can land criticals more easily when you completely dominate your opponent skillwise. Of course, this has few really obvious issues: few spells give completely sick To Hit-bonuses, and in general it's easier to boost To Hit than it is to boost Damage (hence why Power Attack is so good) - it runs the risk of making criticals too common.

That said, giving the one-shot buff spells like True Strike a clause "This bonus does not count towards scoring a critical" and just reigning in the massive stacking buffs available could easily deal with this, especially combined with giving characters an AC progress equal to ½ his BAB progress, for example (some buff to this effect is needed anyways given that it's difficult to easily achieve AC values you'd need to avoid hits from high level opposition).

I was thinking, something like "exceed target AC by 10 to threaten critical" should work out rather well. This would make all sorts of sense, and make actually exceeding target's AC somewhat useful, especially given how brutal criticals can be in a WP-based system.


EDIT: I just realized that this coulda been better off in Homebrew. Oh well, I guess it sorta makes sense here too as a post that pools ideas on what options exist with the VP/WP system before actually going about fleshing out the changes.

Myrmex
2009-07-09, 10:45 PM
Reaching certain point (say, losing half) of your vitality points could make you fatigued (to reflect that you are running out of energy and speed to actually avoid the big hits); would make vitality point damage more interesting when it can actually have an effect on what you can or can't do.


I'm not really a fan of this for the type of D&D I like to play. It makes the meat shields less effective, since now you are effectively halving their HP. Of course, it makes defense a much more attractive option.

Have you given any thought to letting shields/armor protect from WP damage on criticals?

Indon
2009-07-10, 09:29 AM
You could throw in the armor-as-DR houserule.

Eldariel
2009-07-10, 03:48 PM
I'm not really a fan of this for the type of D&D I like to play. It makes the meat shields less effective, since now you are effectively halving their HP. Of course, it makes defense a much more attractive option.

Eh, being fatigued =/= being useless. It simply means you hit a little worse and take hits a little worse and move a bit more slowly and carry a bit less, but you can still dish out and take punishment. My purpose is on the contrary, I feel this makes damage dealers in general better as being fatigued long before being dead means dealing damage can act as a debuff too.

Of course, optimally this'd have an effect on spellcasters too, but a rule like "Casting a spell while fatigued requires a DC 10+Caster Level Fort Save or become Exhausted" could work out.


Have you given any thought to letting shields/armor protect from WP damage on criticals?

Yeah, but I'm not really sure how best go about it; I really dislike the stock "Armor as DR", simply because I feel it leaves a lot of potential unused and doesn't really hit home with exactly what kind of an effect I'd want from this.

Note that I don't think criticals should ever deal less damage than normal attacks (because scoring a critical is an achievement and a difficult one at that; if critical isn't always better than a normal hit, they are at the very least unimpressive), so I'd apply the DR to all attacks regardless.

Random832
2009-07-10, 04:08 PM
I've actually been playing around with an armor-as-DR rule in my mind

the main mechanic is that there are two "to hit" numbers (touch AC and real AC, basically) - if the attack hits the armor, it is subject to damage reduction.

Now, here's the interesting part - certain kinds of armor (plate) have generally higher DR, but any damage that overcomes it, half of it is done to the armor. (Someone slams a club into your armor hard enough, it's going to leave a dent)

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-10, 04:56 PM
I've been trying to do something with the Vitality/Wound system tied with the Action Point system and even dragging from 4th Edition the healing surge option. It's based a bit on the Romancing SaGa games where you have a Vitality Point expy (HP) and a Wound Point expy (LP), and mostly from SaGa Frontier II where you can use your LP a bit more.

Basically, work the system as is (Vitality Points equal to Hit Die + Con modifier, Wound Points equal to Con score). Critical Hits work as current system (they deal damage to Vitality Points) PLUS one damage to Wound Points. When Vitality reaches 0, the character is incapacitated (as when you have negative HP, instead of getting fatigued), and all damage deals 1 Wound Point of damage, unless it's a critical or something that deals 2 Wound Points of damage. Spells that kill characters (such as Power Word: Kill, Phantasmal Killer, and so on) instead remove ALL Vitality Points and one Wound Point. If the character reaches 0 Wound Points, it dies, no Resurrection, no Raise Dead, unless it gets a very carefully worded Wish or Miracle. Resurrection would be a 9th level spell. Oh, and: if a character has no Vitality Points and receives a Heal spell, it recovers as usual.

As for the Action Points, one use of an Action Point costs one Wound Point. As well, you can spend one Wound Point and restore half your Vitality Points in damage, as a standard action. Action Points work as usual for 3.5, while this kind of "healing surge" works at any moment (so you can restore yourself to full HP even if you're over half your HP by spending a standard action to waste a WP). Heroic Spirit (the feat that grants you 3 Action Points more per level) still stands, but they work as Action Points and can't be spent as Wound Points for healing surges or remaining alive. This also works for any other feat that provides temporary Action Points, as well as for the Extreme Explorer PrC (though the capstone ability can be worthwhile)

Wound Points would be very hard to recover. Only a good night's sleep would allow recovery of Wound Points, as well as very specific items. Heal, Cure X Wounds and so forth only recover Vitality Points. Spells such as Raise Dead do not exist at all, except Resurrection which restores a character who has lost all Wound Points (and would be a high-level spell, mostly a 9th level spell). Death Pact would similarly be raised, and it would instead restore all Vitality points at the first moment of going unconscious (but still lose 1 Wound Point); Renewal Pact would either cease to exist or restore HP only when the character has lost half of its HP (as if a Healing Surge). Again, only a very carefully worded Wish (or perhaps even Limited Wish, although I would be very harsh on this) would be capable of restoring Wound Points, and even then only a limited amount. Since the WP would be used as healing surges and Action Points, it would limit the amount of times to use it (and make the two a very, very, very careful thing to consider)

Of course, damage to Constitution would affect Wound Points equally, at a ratio of 1:1. Death Ward would probably need to be used to protect against Con damage as well.

Because of tying Constitution to current Wound Points, it's important to specify some things. Most monsters should only have 1 Wound Point, since only heroes should have the benefit of Action Points and healing surges. Undead and Constructs, as well as creatures with no Con, should have 1 WP as minimum. As DM, you could argue that some have an extraordinary amount of WP, a number between 1 to full Con (or reasonable equivalent in the case of 0 Con creatures) This would differentiate normal mooks from the BBEGs and other villains, and it would make them a pain in the buttocks to finish.

The only problem I'd see with this variant would be Regeneration and Disintegrate-based spells, which work in a very different way. Regeneration, as stated in the original rules, deals HP damage and disintegrates those who would die instead; in these rules, it would either deal direct wound point damage (and thus be utterly broken) or vitality point damage (and thus, useless because it wouldn't disintegrate anyone). I thought of making Disintegrate deal damage equal to CL exclusively (as in, a Wizard 20 casting Disintegrate dealing exactly 20 points of damage), but to wound points, and again depending on a Fortitude save. Regeneration, on the other part, is utterly brutal if you consider the main variant rules (trolls can't be actually killed if you don't have fire or acid attacks); the Tarrasque already can't be killed in the main game, so it's pretty fair, but that makes other Regeneration X creatures become far more potent. I'd rule for the weaknesses dealing one Wound Point of damage per dice along with the damage dealt to Vitality Points.

That's just the idea that I had running on my mind; feel free to take or leave as you like (so as long as you provide a shout-out in case you take some of the ideas around). I'd also go with Armor as DR variant, since I personally like armor to be more defensive in case you get damage (but only physical armor, perhaps extended to Bracers of Armor but not to the cast spell), but only applied to Vitality Point damage. Even if you use the original version of VP/WP, it makes some people quite durable, but it doesn't exactly remove the benefits some Wizards are accustomed to work with (such as save-or-suck spells, and just spells at all). Besides, armor and shields technically already protect from criticals: unless it's another natural 20 to confirm, you're still facing the same AC to confirm a threat.

Which is why I wouldn't go much for criticals for over-exceeding the AC. I'd tie over-exceeding the AC to the called shots, though: if the character exceeds the AC by a load, it should be entitled to deal damage to an extremity, almost automatically since it was that good of a shot. Of course, this would apply only to those who don't already deal precision damage, to make fighters with insane attack bonuses just as good as rogues with their sneak attack (also, being a really "lucky" shot, it would preclude the discussion of "why my Rogue can't do the same if s/he was actually aiming at the area?")

Indon
2009-07-10, 05:33 PM
I've actually been playing around with an armor-as-DR rule in my mind

the main mechanic is that there are two "to hit" numbers (touch AC and real AC, basically) - if the attack hits the armor, it is subject to damage reduction.

Now, here's the interesting part - certain kinds of armor (plate) have generally higher DR, but any damage that overcomes it, half of it is done to the armor. (Someone slams a club into your armor hard enough, it's going to leave a dent)

So, under this rule, wearing any armor gives you 50% damage reduction until the armor's broken?

Or do you take full damage and then the armor takes half again?

Also, it seems like it would be pretty hard to actually damage armor - since it would have hardness above and beyond the actual DR (and generally higher than the DRs offered by armor listed in the houserule).

Syren
2010-04-10, 01:40 AM
So I know that this thread is old, but I have my two cents on this and can tell you how my experiement went.

I was playing with the Amor=DR idea myself. mainly becuase I thought invincible armor was to fantastically unreal (given I swordfight, and know how armor gets damaged). So I needed to give the armor a "hp system" as well as a cost/reward system for the armor being expendable, this is what I came up with;

Armor Absorption House Rule

"Armor Benefits"

Armor would grant the wearer a certain level of protection from ALL attacks depending on the type of armor worn. This protection would act as DR in the sense that it would absorb "X" amount of damage protecting the wearer from a certain level of harm. I didnt want the armor to fall apart to fast so I granted as a general rule all armor "HP" equal to 40 times their AC bonus. Below is a table showing the levels of protection.

Padded Armor - 40AA
Leather Armor - 80AA
Studded Armor - 120AA
Chain Shirt - 160AA
Full Plate - 320AA
(Etc., etc, you get the idea)


"Armor Mechanics in Combat"

Armor absorbs an amount of damage equal to its AC bonus. This cant be adjusted by any means.

Now as a confirmed hit lands on a person, the attacker would roll the damage. Lets say our defender is wearing Chainmail Armor with a AA (Armor Absorption) rating of 5DR, and a total of 200HP. The attacker hits with a Longsword and with strength damage does a total hit for 9 damage. The defender would reduce the damage to 4 and take the rest out of the armors HP.

"Armor Penalties"

Now as the attackers hit lands there starts some "bookkeeping" and some mechanics to track damage.

So as the armor absorbs the above hit... the player tracks that the armor has taken damage. Generally speaking the armor works in all the normal ways as according to the PHB as long as the player takes care of his armor and repairs it as it is needed.

If a player were to neglect his armor as it fell apart it would offer less and less protection. The following table shows the loss of protection as armor is damaged. The idea being that as it took more damage the straps would start to break, and the dented plates would bend in ways that prevent the armor from offering the protection it should.

50% to 100% of the Armors HP = No Penalty
25% to 50% of the Armors HP = Armor offers only 1/2 its AC protection
1% to 25% of the Armors HP = Armor offers only 1/4 its AC protection
0% of the Armors HP = Armor falls off character.

Armor that has a diminished protection due to damage will also only absorb an amount of damage according to its new AC protection.

Characters can either repair their armor with Craft: Armor/Weapons or hit a local smithy that would do the work for a fee. To help with self repair I also added a new piece of adventuring gear, the armor repair kit. For 50GP the character would get a +2 circumstantial bonus to repair checks. Spells such as "Make Whole" would instantly repair all damage

"Magical Armor Modifications"

Okay.... so as characters gain levels as heroes they will of course start gathering magical gear. Of course magical armor can't be the same as normal gear as it would break to easily and kinda flies int he face that magical gear is "special" and "better". The best mechanic that I could come up with (since magical armor should still take damage) to show the armors improved hardiness but still allow it to be damaged and destroyed if the character was truely neglectful was to increase its AA modifiers. For each +1 magical rating the AA multiplier to determine the armors HP goes up by 1. Below is a table to show hwo this would work.

+1 Magical Rating = x50 Mutliplier
+2 Magical Rating = x60 Multiplier
+3 Magical Rating = x70 Multiplier
+4 Magical Rating = x80 Multiplier
+5 Magical Rating = x90 Multiplier

Example: Chainmail has a AC bonus of +5. With the standard x40 multiplier the armor has a total of 200 HP's worth of AA (Armor Absorption). If the character had a +2 set of the same armor the multiplier would raise by 2 (to x60) and change the total armors HP from 200 to 300. Now the armor will still suffer the same damage effects as listed above till the armor literally falls off and the magical properties are lost forever.

Thoughts?

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-10, 07:40 AM
Yeah, but I'm not really sure how best go about it; I really dislike the stock "Armor as DR", simply because I feel it leaves a lot of potential unused and doesn't really hit home with exactly what kind of an effect I'd want from this.


If you apply the "beat AC by 10" thing for criticals, here an idea to pimp shield users.

You add twice the shield modifier to the number above if the shield is properly wielded (proficent and not flying).

As an example, you must beat the AC of a tower shield wielder by 18.. because it covers almost the whole body.