[4e] Kobold Avenger build help?

[Haven]

So next weekend I'm going to be playing in a one-shot level 13 game that's apparently going to involve a good deal of traps. So I decided to deal with this in a manner both effective and somewhat off-the-wall: namely, a kobold avenger.

I'm pretty new to 4e--this is only my second character--so could I get some help/advice? Here's what I'm thinking so far:


Kobold Avenger (Censure of Pursuit) 13

Starting array: 17, 15, 12, 11, 10, 8

Wis 20
Dex 20
Con 15
Int 12
Str 11
Cha 9

HP 100

Feats
Sneak of Shadows
??

At-Will: Bond of Pursuit, Radiant Vengeance, Shifty

Trained Skills: Religion, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Thievery

Paragon Path:
Shadow Assassin

Weapons: Short Sword, Hand Crossbow


Thanks in advance :) On an unrelated note: is hybrid Paladin/Sorcerer as awesome a build as I think it is? There just seem to be so many sorcerer powers based on punishing the enemy for hanging around you (Burning Spray, to start with), which combine awesomely with the paladin mark which, of course, punishes them for not hanging around you.

edit: I've just been informed kobolds are broken (which amuses the hell out of me--sure, Tucker's kobolds, but: not even the tactics but the kobolds themselves?! ) because shifty is apparently even better than I thought it was. :( Oh well...I still want to go for it because the thought of a kobold avenger amuses me a lot. Particularly because my mental image of kobolds is still either the Everquest version, where they're little furry hyena-things that knuckle-walked at you...or this (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2388/moongiftbn1.gif).

[Haven]

Hate to do it, but: bump?

I'm trying to figure out powers, and: how good is the rogue level 6 power Chameleon? I'm thinking of picking up the multiclass swap feat and switching out my level 6 power for one of the rogue ones, probably that one, because the level 6 avenger utilities aren't that great. But if Chameleon isn't that great (I'm not sure how often it would come up), I might just take Aspect of Agility and save myself the feat.

Here's my current list of powers:

Powers:
Shared Madness (encounter)
Renewing Strike (Daily)
Refocus Enmity (Encounter)
Oath of Consuming Light (Daily)
Aspect of Agility (Utility)
Avenging Winds (Encounter)
Enduring Strike (Daily)
Eye of Justice (Encounter)
Killer's Eye (Encounter)
Bad Idea, Friend (Daily)
Sequestering Word (Encounter)

I switched Sequestering Strike out for Sequestering Word, although I might keep Sequestering Strike and switch out Killer's Eye for Whirling Blades instead.

[herrhauptmann]

The avenger utility power which activates when you get hit with a crit is awesome. Especially if you're in an undead campaign.

Step 1)Enemy hits you with a crit,
Step 2) Laugh at the DM
Step 3) Your oath target takes Radiant damage equal to the crit. (if he's vulnerable to radiant, he actually takes MORE than you)

I've made use of this power several times.
1- In the middle of getting eaten by an owlbear (his second claw attack was a crit) which brought him down to 4 HP, which was great since I was at -2, and the two sorcerers were out of dailies and encounters.
2- Evil wizard blasts me with his daily, and instead takes out one of his flaming skulls. Which opens up a path for the warden to safely reach the wizard.
3- Ghoul AOO's me (I knew I'd get an AOO for moving, but I had to engage the other flaming skull. DM really liked those things until I brought in the avenger). I get paralyzed, but the damage kills the skull.
4- Some skeleton with 4 arms. It bloodied and killed itself against me:
I used Avenging Echo against it which damages anyone who attacks me, and enemies who end turn next to me with radiant damage. It then proceeds to attack me 4 times taking 9 radiant each time (Vulnerable 5, so actually 14 each hit for 56). Last attack was the only hit, which critted. Like 30 points there, so 35 on it. Then it ended turn and took another 14 radiant. :smallbiggrin: And died. All those happened over 3 game sessions, the DM has since stopped throwing undead at us when my avenger's in the party.

[Arcane Copycat]

Chameleon is good if you suddenly lose cover when stealthing around. If you plan on sneaking a lot of places, it's handy.

Also, for weapon choice:

Craghammer (Brutal 2, d10)
Waraxe (only 2-hander with d12 you can get as a small)
War Pick (d8, but High Crit might interest you, and no need to blow a feat)
Broadsword (d10, no feat required)
Bastard Sword/Triple Headed Flail (+3 proficiency makes them a tad more accurate, plus d10 damage)

Those suggestions, of course, are should you decide against the hand crossbow, of course.

That's my 2 cents anyway

[Haven]

Chameleon is good if you suddenly lose cover when stealthing around. If you plan on sneaking a lot of places, it's handy.

Also, for weapon choice:

Craghammer (Brutal 2, d10)
Waraxe (only 2-hander with d12 you can get as a small)
War Pick (d8, but High Crit might interest you, and no need to blow a feat)
Broadsword (d10, no feat required)
Bastard Sword/Triple Headed Flail (+3 proficiency makes them a tad more accurate, plus d10 damage)

Those suggestions, of course, are should you decide against the hand crossbow, of course.

That's my 2 cents anyway

I can't find those in either of the PHBs. Are they in Martial Power or something? And do any of those count as light blades? I wanted to be able to take advantage of the ability to Sneak Attack once an encounter, and the Shadow Assassin ability that lets me do 3[W] and hits their Reflex defense. But I guess it's bad to plan so much around those.

Also, I took a bunch of ranged attack powers so it wouldn't matter except for that...but then I remembered 1) my Oath of Enmity only works in melee and 2) I can take the Melee Training feat. So I might reconsider all that.

BTW, where is the WBL? I'm not sure how much equipment I'm supposed to get by default as a level 13 character.

Thanks for the advice.
PS this (http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv205/haven_bucket/koboldavenger.png?t=1247682425) is my character picture.

[Burley]

Check out the Eberron book. Good weapons for small creatures.

[Mando Knight]

I can't find those in either of the PHBs. Are they in Martial Power or something? And do any of those count as light blades?

They're in Adventurer's Vault (except the Bastard Sword, which is in the PHB), and like most high-damage weapons (excepting the Double Sword and Rapier, but the Double Sword is just broken), they're not Light Blades. If you were a Dwarf instead, the Craghammer and War Axe could be used with the Martial Power feat Tunnel Stalker to count as light blades for Rogue powers and features (at the cost of 1 SA die), but that's about it. If you want decent [W] damage and sneak attack, I'd suggest a Rapier, since Double Swords can't be used by small creatures.

[erikun]

Well, there are two big problems for small avengers: low weapon damage and low movement. Kobolds have an effective movement of 6, as they can shift 1 as a minor action then move 5 as normal. (Yes, that is very effective, assuming you have nothing else to spend that minor action on.)

Weapon damage is a bit more of a problem. Your best bet as an avenger is the longsword or bastard sword, depending on if you want to spend a feat or not. Adventures Vault might have some better weapons, but I don't have that book.

Any reason why you'd want rogue powers?

Why do you have (almost) only ranged powers? Remember that you need a holy symbol (something seperate from your sword) to gain enchantment bonuses for ranged powers. Also, with Pursuit, you'll be spending a lot of time next to the target - and ranged powers still provoke.

Taking a quick lookthrough, I notice a trend with Avenger powers: a lot that move you around, and a lot more than damage anything staying next to you. With Pursuit, I can think of two strategies then. Either pick all the powers that help you chase down an opponent, or pick powers that deal damage if the opponent stays near you - and using Censure of Pursuit to increase the damage if they move away.

I assume that Killer's Eye/Bad Idea, Friend are from your paragon path?

[Mando Knight]

Kobolds have an effective movement of 6, as they can shift 1 as a minor action then move 5 as normal. (Yes, that is very effective, assuming you have nothing else to spend that minor action on.)

Kobolds have 6 speed. They're quick little buggers.

...also, Shadow Assassin is bad for you. The daily power's effect is worthless for a character with a Charisma penalty, and the level 16 feature doesn't help you out much. (When are you going to be dealing your 1/encounter SA damage to an opponent that's already bloodied?) Zealous Assassin grants you the same ability at level 11 as an at-will. (Finishing Technique)

[Haven]

Mando: I thought of rapier--is it worth a feat and the loss of the hand crossbow option to get an extra die size? (That's not a rhetorical question, I'm really not sure :o Though since I already have an at-will that lets me do ranged damage and the only thing that hand crossbow is really important for is the once an encounter sneak attack, and the Killer's Eye power)


Well, there are two big problems for small avengers: low weapon damage and low movement. Kobolds have an effective movement of 6, as they can shift 1 as a minor action then move 5 as normal. (Yes, that is very effective, assuming you have nothing else to spend that minor action on.)

Kobolds are listed as having a speed of six, so wouldn't it be effectively a seven square move?


Any reason why you'd want rogue powers?

It's a dungeon with a lot of traps, so I figured I'd grab the rogue multiclass feat for skill training in thievery, and then I noticed that Shadow Assassin seemed a lot better than the other paragon paths I had available (opponents taking my Dex mod as damage whenever they miss is pretty awesome).

Hmm, for the dilemma where I want to take advantage of Sneak Attack and Killer's Eye, but also want to be as effective in melee as an Avenger should be--what if I pick up the Quick Draw feat, so I could switch between the two when necessary? Does that work? Is it worthwhile? Or should I just forget about the option to Sneak Attack completely?


Why do you have (almost) only ranged powers? Remember that you need a holy symbol (something seperate from your sword) to gain enchantment bonuses for ranged powers. Also, with Pursuit, you'll be spending a lot of time next to the target - and ranged powers still provoke.

Fff-Hadn't thought about that. Although I could just shift out before using them, being a kobold. But I like the ranged powers because they target non-AC defenses, and also because I'd thought my melee damage wasn't going to be too great until I read through this advice and started reconsidering my choice of short sword.


Taking a quick lookthrough, I notice a trend with Avenger powers: a lot that move you around, and a lot more than damage anything staying next to you. With Pursuit, I can think of two strategies then. Either pick all the powers that help you chase down an opponent, or pick powers that deal damage if the opponent stays near you - and using Censure of Pursuit to increase the damage if they move away.

A mix of those would be good. I think one of my basic strategies would be moving in, using Bond of Pursuit, then shifting away--so they have to come towards me or risk extra damage and having me catch up with them anyway.


I assume that Killer's Eye/Bad Idea, Friend are from your paragon path?

Yes. The former is a 2w+Dex that targets their reflex defense and increases to 3w if they haven't acted yet this encounter, but requires me to use a light blade, crossbow or sling. The latter is a daily power that gives me +10 to all defenses against a melee attack if it's the first attack that opponent has made on me this encounter, and deals twice my Dex mod to them if they miss.

So what should I spend my feats on? So far I'm thinking Sneak of Shadows, Quick Draw, Melee Training (Wis), Armor Proficiency (leather), possibly a weapon proficiency feat to get a better weapon...what else are good choices?


...also, Shadow Assassin is bad for you. The daily power's effect is worthless for a character with a Charisma penalty, and the level 16 feature doesn't help you out much. (When are you going to be dealing your 1/encounter SA damage to an opponent that's already bloodied?) Zealous Assassin grants you the same ability at level 11 as an at-will. (Finishing Technique)


It's going to be a one-shot game, so the latter abilities of the Shadow Assassin won't come up. I just like the looks of the riposte ability, mostly. Though it's probably not quite as nifty as it seems.

...though Zealous Assassin looks pretty good, too. "Strike From Empty Air" is definitely a lot better.

[Mando Knight]

Your implement powers target NADs because they don't get the Weapon Proficiency bonus, which mostly makes up for an enemy's higher AC, especially if you've got a +3 proficiency weapon (i.e. a Blade or Flail or Superior Crossbow). With Nimble Blade, a Light Blade (Short sword or Rapier) will grant you a +4 attack bonus over an implement power using the same set of bonuses.

And yes, Rapier is worth it. You get a larger weapon die, which is important critical when you've got high-[W] damage rolls. The bigger the weapon, the deadlier your high-[W] powers get. It's why no one lets Bugbears come out to play any more: they just wreck stuff with Large weapons like their 2d6 brutal 2 Executioner Axes.

[erikun]

Really? Kobolds have a move of 6? *checks*
Well I'll be buggered, that they do. Gnomes just get [removed] out of everything, don't they?

On the other hand, said entry in the Monster Manual doesn't say they are small, either. If your DM is willing to allow it, you could be swinging around a 2d6 Battleaxe of some sort or another.

If not, then grab the biggest [W] for your money. As I said, I recommend the Bastard Sword - 1d10, can be held two-handed by smaller races - if you're limited to PHB/PHB2. The free re-rolls allowed by the Avenger class can make up for slightly lower accuracy. If you're still looking at Rogue powers, though, the Rapier is the weapon of choice.

[Shadow_Elf]

Don't get a light blade.

1) The once/encounter sneak attack from your multiclass does not require a light bade to use.
2) The loss of [W] on your avenger powers (most of your powers) is not made up for by the ability to burn feats on rogue powers.

In addition take a two-handed weapon. The hand crossbow is useless to you, and you can't afford a decent enhancement bonus on it. Bastard sword, for a feat, is your best option, IMHO. Alternatively, the EPG has some interesting small-sized two-handed weapons - could be worth your trouble to look em' up.

I might be able to post a theoretical CharBuilder build later.

[Mando Knight]

1) The once/encounter sneak attack from your multiclass does not require a light bade to use.

Yes, it does. You gain the use of the Rogue's Sneak Attack class feature once per encounter. Sneak Attack specifies that you need to use a Light Blade, Crossbow, or Sling to deal Sneak Attack damage.

[Shadow_Elf]

Yes, it does. You gain the use of the Rogue's Sneak Attack class feature once per encounter. Sneak Attack specifies that you need to use a Light Blade, Crossbow, or Sling to deal Sneak Attack damage.

Well that's silly :smalltongue:. Didn't realize that. As a DM, though, I would hand-wave it; any class that gets a kick out of multiclassing rogue probably doesn't want to be shoehorned into using a light blade.

[Mando Knight]

If they're multiclassing as a Rogue, that's the penalty they'll have to take, especially if they go any farther than just Sneak of the Shadows. All of the Rogue attack powers specify that you have to be wielding a Light Blade, Crossbow, etc., IIRC.

Basically, they're trading in a larger weapon die size for an extra 1d6 (1d8 if they've got Backstabber) of damage compared to multiclassing into Ranger. It works for Warlocks, Sorcerers, and other mage-types, since they're not making [W] damage rolls anyway.

[Ashes]

or this (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2388/moongiftbn1.gif).

I don't really have anything to add, but I have to say this; That was one of the sweetest things I've ever seen. I love it.

[Haven]

Your implement powers target NADs because they don't get the Weapon Proficiency bonus, which mostly makes up for an enemy's higher AC, especially if you've got a +3 proficiency weapon (i.e. a Blade or Flail or Superior Crossbow). With Nimble Blade, a Light Blade (Short sword or Rapier) will grant you a +4 attack bonus over an implement power using the same set of bonuses.

And yes, Rapier is worth it. You get a larger weapon die, which is important critical when you've got high-[W] damage rolls. The bigger the weapon, the deadlier your high-[W] powers get. It's why no one lets Bugbears come out to play any more: they just wreck stuff with Large weapons like their 2d6 brutal 2 Executioner Axes.

Alright, this sounds like the best option. Since I don't think EPG is available for this game. Thanks :o


I might be able to post a theoretical CharBuilder build later.

That'd be spectacularly helpful!


I don't really have anything to add, but I have to say this; That was one of the sweetest things I've ever seen. I love it.

^^ Here's another one (http://4chan.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/3038348/images/1227335089780.png) (not quite as sweet, but about as cute).

[Haven]

Having just figured out that I get three magic items--one above, below, and equal to my level--I'm thinking of either:

# Symbol of Victory +3 (level 14, daily: an ally who scores a crit gets an action point)
# Vicious Rapier +3 (level 12, +3d12 on a crit)
#Shadowflow Leather Armor +3 (level 13, +3 stealth, encounter: gain concealment until start of my next turn as a minor action)

# Symbol of Power +3 (level 12, enemies get -2 to saving throws against ongoing effects I make when I use this)
# Duelist's Rapier +3 (level 13, daily: gain combat advantage as a minor action)
# Inner Warmth Armor +3 (level 14, resist 5 cold and necrotic, daily: minor action, until end of encounter adjacent allies get the same resistances).

Not sure which set is better, or if there are better choices. Though Shadowflow combos quite well with the possibility of switching my 6th level power for Chameleon, if that is indeed something I want to do.

[Mando Knight]

I'd take the first set, IMO. You're an Avenger, meaning that you roll enough d20s that you'll end up with more criticals than normal, and if you have even one defender, you can team up with that guy for easy CA.

[Haven]

Okay, thanks for all the help Mando! Here's the character sheet I've come up with:

Pash, Kobold Avenger (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=139804)

Should probably replace Paragon Defenses with something else, but I have no idea what.