V's ultimate fate (SPOILERS!)

[Kaytara]

V's alignment, while previously simply a topic of debate, has just become an actual plot point and a loose end. Will he or won't he be damned after the Familicide? It's a thread that'll be left dangling loose if V simply survives the story and retreats to raise his children and study spells somewhere. And we can't have loose threads. So it follows that the point of V's Afterlife WILL be addressed in the future in some fashion.

Possibilities:

-V dies at some point and gets evaluated. Another arc of watching from the Afterlife would be repetitive, so the only way I can see it happening is if V actually gets damned to the Lower Planes and serves the IFCC for a while, maybe trying to sabotage their plans. A potential point of interest would be if Belkar dies the conventional way and ends up in the same place. Some nice dramatic potential would be if Belkar has, by that time, become so accustomed to acting the team player, that it doesn't matter that he has already died and he helps V in some dreadfully pseudo-selfless manner.

-V doesn't die, but does something, whether good or evil, that gets him off the fence one way or another and is acknowledged by a source we can trust on the matter. Tricky to pull off satisfactorily, as the issue needs to be settled for the sake of closure beyond all doubt.

-Something happens to V that makes the issue moot. Getting Snarl'd? Scarily, this seems the most likely to me, particularly if V never gets to reconcile with his family before the story ends.

-Something happens not to V but to the world in general that makes the issue moot, like a clean slate scenario that gives everyone a chance to start anew... Or, uhh.... suppose World 2 gets destroyed along with the Snarl and World 3 is created, with the Order having ascended to the status of Sexy Semi-Shoeless Gods and Goddesses of War, Magic, Music and Cheese? :smallbiggrin:

Thoughts?

[Optimystik]

-V doesn't die, but does something, whether good or evil, that gets him off the fence one way or another and is acknowledged by a source we can trust on the matter. Tricky to pull of satisfactorily, as the issue needs to be settled for the sake of closure beyond all doubt.

This one gets my vote. Another Afterlife scene would be boring, and the Fiends haven't earned enough time with him to make showing off the Stickverse Abyss gagworthy. We know V is capable of heroism even when his magic is useless, so chances are he'll commit some act of bravery/sacrifice to fully redeem himself.

Of course, immediately after that good deed, he might get Snarl'd anyway. Oh, cruel irony!

[David Argall]

V has a "date with destiny" coming up in 100+ strips and it will likely be decided about then. The plot seems to hint at V doing something virtuous, but that's pretty much still a guess.

And the strip has loads of loose ends that will not be taken care of. So it is not impossible that V will be uncertain all the way to the final strip and beyond.

[Kaytara]

V has a "date with destiny" coming up in 100+ strips and it will likely be decided about then. The plot seems to hint at V doing something virtuous, but that's pretty much still a guess.
What date with destiny? Is it something from the commentaries again, or are the quotation marks just for show? :smallconfused: Please elaborate.


And the strip has loads of loose ends that will not be taken care of. ...
And, um.... you know this how? And what loose ends do you mean?

[Linkavitch]

I like the idea of V and Belkar being in the Lower Planes together, trying to get out. Hilarity ensues!:smallbiggrin:

[Vemynal]

my vote is V dies via Snarl

those who the snarl get don't go to the after life, they cease to exist

thats harsh but this way the giant leaves the situation ambiguous for us to argue over, which seems to be how he likes things

[73 Bits of Lint]

-V doesn't die, but does something, whether good or evil, that gets him off the fence one way or another and is acknowledged by a source we can trust on the matter. Tricky to pull off satisfactorily, as the issue needs to be settled for the sake of closure beyond all doubt.
I suspect this. Although I hope there will be less hand-holding, "X was GOOD!/BAD!"-commentary from fiends/devas/etc in the future.
Most readers, I think, are reasonably intelligent. Or at least, they are smart enough to recognize mass murder as the sort of thing that puts a bit of a blot on one's karma report card (yeah, yeah, this isn't the place for that).

[David Argall]

What date with destiny?
Who knows? Right now, about all we know is that there has been a lot of development about V being Fiend toy for 45 minutes. So we are about guaranteed that V will survive until those 45 minutes and that those 45 minutes will be a major event.



And, um.... you know this how? And what loose ends do you mean?
Well, just about any of the surviving minor characters for starters. We are apparently past the midpoint of the story, and we are unlikely to see again the great majority of those we have seen to date. Of course a good number of them are dead, but even so, we already have too long a list for a whatever happened to ...? strip.

[Zordrath]

There's a major difference between 'what did Pompey do after he became utterly irrelevant?' and 'what will the eternal fate of one of the six protagonists be?', though :smalltongue: I doubt a plot point that major would be left hanging, especially considering how an entire arc was spent setting up V's deal with the devil. I'm sure the Giant will make something of this, and I'm quite sure it will be nothing any of us expected.

I really hope noone from the Order gets Snarl'd. That would be a real downer ending and nothing a main character deserves. I can see it happening to Xykon or Nale, but hopefully no OOTSer. The soul of one of his friends destroyed forever would also put a rather heavy strain on Elan's supposed happy end...

V and Belkar together in the afterlife would be absolutely fantastic :smallbiggrin: However, I think V dying would be a bit much - Roy already did, Belkar will soon and Durkon some time in the future. Talk about repetiveness...

[Bibliomancer]

I'm rather glad that the main point of contention in the Vaarsuvius and Xykon Speculation Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115101) has been resolved and will not be continued here. Verdict: killing those dragons was evil.

Anyways, my vote's for V and Belkar blasting and slashing their way out of the Lower Planes in a sequel book, simply for sheer awesomeness and to keep the ending for being excessively upbeat.

What I think is more likely is that V will get redeemed somehow. Who knows, maybe the Snarl has a weak spot shaped like a banana nut muffin. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html)

[jlvm4]

While I would be greatly amused by V and Belkar doing a 'buddy movie' in hell, I think it will likely fall into the redeeming act category. Whether it is V's final act, as it were, is up in the air; but the basics would be the same. After all, don't we tell our kids when they make a mistake to 'say they're sorry and make it right'?

So V would likely have to recognize the evil of the act (not saying he didn't need to stop the dragon, just that how he went about it was a bit... harsh), repent the evil part of his actions, and fix it. Sometime the only way to 'make it right' isn't to bring things back to where they were before it all began (you can't) but to learn from it and be mindful in all your future actions of what's right.

So I see redemption in V's future. I hope he survives it.

[Bibliomancer]

While I would be greatly amused by V and Belkar doing a 'buddy movie' in hell, I think it will likely fall into the redeeming act category. Whether it is V's final act, as it were, is up in the air; but the basics would be the same. After all, don't we tell our kids when they make a mistake to 'say they're sorry and make it right'?

So V would likely have to recognize the evil of the act (not saying he didn't need to stop the dragon, just that how he went about it was a bit... harsh), repent the evil part of his actions, and fix it. Sometime the only way to 'make it right' isn't to bring things back to where they were before it all began (you can't) but to learn from it and be mindful in all your future actions of what's right.

So I see redemption in V's future. I hope he survives it.

To redeem genocide would require far more than repentance, my friend. It might even take more than a side quest. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0134.html)

[Klivian]

While I would be greatly amused by V and Belkar doing a 'buddy movie' in hell, I think it will likely fall into the redeeming act category. Whether it is V's final act, as it were, is up in the air; but the basics would be the same. After all, don't we tell our kids when they make a mistake to 'say they're sorry and make it right'?

So V would likely have to recognize the evil of the act (not saying he didn't need to stop the dragon, just that how he went about it was a bit... harsh), repent the evil part of his actions, and fix it. Sometime the only way to 'make it right' isn't to bring things back to where they were before it all began (you can't) but to learn from it and be mindful in all your future actions of what's right.

So I see redemption in V's future. I hope he survives it.

If V is redeemed, I don't see her surviving. People like to comment on the number of tropes in this strip, and one of the biggest tropes out there is Redemption Equals Death (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath)

V has already been seen to feel tremendous guilt for failing to save the soldiers in Azure City, we know at some point that the fiends plan to take over near one of the gates, which will likely cause tremendous havoc. I wouldn't be surprised if V dies fixing whatever it is she breaks while being controlled by the fiends, because if another member of the Order gets taken down by whatever she does, the guilt would be even MORE soul-crushing.

The Oracle only said that Elan would have a happy ending, doesn't mean that half the Order can't be wiped out before it's all said and done.

[Boaromir]

-V doesn't die, but does something, whether good or evil, that gets him off the fence one way or another and is acknowledged by a source we can trust on the matter. Tricky to pull off satisfactorily, as the issue needs to be settled for the sake of closure beyond all doubt.


I'll go ahead and put my vote on this one too. I like closure, and I dislike things getting Snarl-ed. Only because I'm really expecting V to be redeemed, I want to go and say V will probably end up becoming blatantly Neutral Evil, possibly Chaotic Evil.

[Joerg]

-V dies at some point and gets evaluated. Another arc of watching from the Afterlife would be repetitive, so the only way I can see it happening is if V actually gets damned to the Lower Planes and serves the IFCC for a while,

I think the chance for this is gone. V is now back on the way towards Good, and having him killed now would be pointless. It could have happened during the fight with Xykon (but then another book would have ended with a dead character).



A potential point of interest would be if Belkar dies the conventional way and ends up in the same place.

I see V as neutral on the lawful / chaotic axis, so he wouldn't get the same afterlife as Belkar.



-V doesn't die, but does something, whether good or evil, that gets him off the fence one way or another and is acknowledged by a source we can trust on the matter.

That would be my prediction. The source could easily by the IFCC themselves: "Alas, we like your soul, but you're not Evil enough, so we must be content with 45 minutes."



-Something happens to V that makes the issue moot. Getting Snarl'd?

I don't believe the story will have such a bad ending for a main character.



suppose World 2 gets destroyed along with the Snarl and World 3 is created, with the Order having ascended to the status of Sexy Semi-Shoeless Gods and Goddesses of War, Magic, Music and Cheese? :smallbiggrin:

So who's the god(dess) of Cheese?

[Kaytara]

Well, just about any of the surviving minor characters for starters. We are apparently past the midpoint of the story, and we are unlikely to see again the great majority of those we have seen to date. Of course a good number of them are dead, but even so, we already have too long a list for a whatever happened to ...? strip.

As Lord Zordrath said, those loose ends don't really demand closure, not in the same way as whether one of the main characters ends up going to Hell or not. Those aren't even real loose ends, because in most cases the last time we saw minor characters they were either dead or alive and doing something that left no cause to really worry about them. I mean, it's possible that Thanh and that rogue girl ended up marrying and ruling the Resistance or something, but when we last saw them there wasn't anything terrible hanging over their heads. We're not exactly biting our nails over their fates, so it's not a loose end that demands to be resolved.

I'd love to agree that a main protagonist getting unmade is far too dark for OotS, but I'm just not sure... As it has already been mentioned, a complete selfless sacrifice may be the only way for V to make up for That One Time He Really Screwed Up (the IFCC deal). Then again, maybe by that time V will have grown enough that the ghost from his past in the form of being a puppet for the IFCC will be something he'll be able to cope with.

[73 Bits of Lint]

If V is redeemed, I don't see her surviving. People like to comment on the number of tropes in this strip, and one of the biggest tropes out there is Redemption Equals Death (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath)
If V never gets to reconcile with her family, then that means they (progeny+mater) were introduced solely for the reason of having a dragon threaten them, which would be the cheapest damn trick any storyteller can pull.
It's bad enough that the "and suddenly children were in peril"-card got played so straight (and without even Elan around to comment on it), but then to just abandon that whole thing would be simply terrible. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying it would the sort of offense against good writing and good sense that warrants being smacked on the nose with a newspaper.

[Kaytara]

If V never gets to reconcile with her family, then that means they (progeny+mater) were introduced solely for the reason of having a dragon threaten them, which would be the cheapest damn trick any storyteller can pull.
It's bad enough that the "and suddenly children were in peril"-card got played so straight (and without even Elan around to comment on it), but then to just abandon that whole thing would be simply terrible. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying it would the sort of offense against good writing and good sense that warrants being smacked on the nose with a newspaper.

Alright then. Solution: Kyrie & kids join the Linear Guild and become recurring villains. The kids are rapidly aged, Eragon-style. :smalltongue: Enough purpose for you? :D

[Zordrath]

Ah, that certainly makes sense. Perhaps the fiends realized that their pawns were hampered in their efficiency by constantly having to stop at food stores to feed Thog, so they devised a cunning plan to have a skilled baker join the Guild!

Clever bastards.

[Kaytara]

Ah, that certainly makes sense. Perhaps the fiends realized that their pawns were hampered in their efficiency by constantly having to stop at food stores to feed Thog, so they devised a cunning plan to have a skilled baker join the Guild!

Clever bastards.

To the Fanfic Mobile! :smalltongue:

[Morgan Wick]

The plot seems to hint at V doing something virtuous, but that's pretty much still a guess.

I want to know more about this. About all I know about V's future other than her 45 minutes is "As for the elf..."

[Kaytara]

I want to know more about this. About all I know about V's future other than her 45 minutes is "As for the elf..."

Well, V as a mostly sympathetic protagonist still has a huge karma bill due to the Familicide. The idea is that he still needs to do something to make up for it so that we can root for him with a good conscience once again. Rescuing one paladin doesn't nearly cut it. Another way to pay off karma is to suffer in a horrible way. V being smashed by rocks and Xykons is perceived as payback for his arrogance, not for the dragons. So, again, the karmic value of the Familicide is left unaddressed.


I see V as neutral on the lawful / chaotic axis, so he wouldn't get the same afterlife as Belkar.

A triviality, I think. For one thing, Belkar may move closer to Neutral Evil before his death, what with his new-found appreciation for planning, manipulation and reining in his impulses for greater long-term rewards. Besides, V may just as easily be Chaotic on the Lawful/Chaotic axis. Sure, he doesn't seem dedicated to chaos and personal freedom by themselves, but he doesn't need to embody the alignment merely be closer to it than to True Neutral, and he's acted chaotically often enough that it wouldn't be hard to justify.