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DareTheRogue
2009-07-10, 11:33 AM
So here is the deal, we have this stat block:
Str 8
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 13
Cha 13

The roll to be filled is Arcane Caster, and the player is going to play an Ultimate Magus... He wants to:
WCL = Wizard Caster Level
SCL = Sorcerer Caster Level
WSPDL = Wizard Spell per Day Level
SSPDL = Sorcerer Spell per Say Level
1 Wizard 1 Precocious Aprentice, Scribe Scroll [WCL 1] {WSPDL 1}
2 Sorcerer 1 [WCL 1, SCL 1] {WSPDL 1, SSPDL 1}
3 Sorcerer 2 Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) [WCL 3, SCL 2] {WSPDL 1, SSPDL 2}
4 Sorcerer 3 [WCL 4, SCL 3] {WSPDL 1, SSPDL 3} +1 Cha
5 Sorcerer 4 [WCL 5, SCL 4] {WSPDL 1, SSPDL 4}
6 Ultimate Magus 1 Improved Familiar (Air Elemental) [WCL 6, SCL 6] {WSPDL 1, SSPDL 5}
7 Ultimate Magus 2 [WCL 7, SCL 7] {WSPDL 2, SSPDL 6}
8 Ultimate Magus 3 [WCL 8, SCL 8] {WSPDL 3, SSPDL 7} +1 Cha
9 Ultimate Magus 4 Invisible Needle [WCL 9, SCL 10] {WSPDL 4, SSPDL 8}
10 Ultimate Magus 5 Silent Spell [WCL 10, SCL 11] {WSPDL 5, SSPDL 9}
11 Ultimate Magus 6 [WCL 11, SCL 12] {WSPDL 6, SSPDL 10}
12 Ultimate Magus 7 Rapid Metamagic [WCL 13, SCL 14] {WSPDL 7, SSPDL 10} +1 Cha
13 Ultimate Magus 8 [WCL 13, SCL 15] {WSPDL 8, SSPDL 11}
14 Ultimate Magus 9 Still Spell [WCL 14, SCL 16] {WSPDL 9, SSPDL 12}
15 Ultimate Magus 10 Quicken Spell [WCL 15, SCL 17] {WSPDL 10, SSPDL 13}
16 Argent Savant 1 [WCL 16, SCL 17] {WSPDL 10, SSPDL 13} +1 Cha
17 Argent Savant 2 [WCL 17, SCL 18] {WSPDL 10, SSPDL 14}
18 Argent Savant 3 Blade of Force [WCL 18, SCL 19] {WSPDL 10, SSPDL 15}
19 Argent Savant 4 [WCL 18, SCL 20] {WSPDL 10, SSPDL 16}
20 Argent Savant 5 [WCL 18, SCL 21] {WSPDL 10, SSPDL 17} +1 Cha

This highest level Wizard spells we shall have are 5th and highest level Sorcerer spells shall be 8th. At level 20 the Wizard casting progression shall have a CL of 18 and Sorcerer shall have a CL of 21. Not counting the +2 CL to all Force Spells.

Final Stat Block shall be:
Str 8
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 13
Cha 18

The character will have the following amount of Spells per day for each level, including Bonus spells for each progression:
0: 4 Prepared, 6 Spontaneous = 10 Total
1: 5 Prepared, 7 Spontaneous = 12 Total
2: 5 Prepared, 7 Spontaneous = 12 Total
3: 3 Prepared, 7 Spontaneous = 10 Total
4: 3 Prepared, 6 Spontaneous = 9 Total
5: 3 Prepared, 6 Spontaneous = 9 Total
6: 2 Prepared, 6 Spontaneous = 8 Total
7: 6 Spontaneous = 6 Total
8: 4 Spontaneous = 4 Total

For all reasoning I think it is a bad idea to lose the 9th level spells but at the same time I think he did well getting fifth level prepared spells and 8th level spont spells, the highest available with the ability scores if it goes like this.

What do you all think?

Keld Denar
2009-07-10, 12:17 PM
Uh....unless you are getting the prereqs waved, you don't qualify for UM like that.


Spellcasting: Able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook.


Also, with the exception of the path of UM that allows you to get nearly full wizard CLs, "theurge" type classes are generally considered weak. You'll be behind most of your life in spells known and spells per day, even with all of the extra low level spells.

From an optimization point of view, you would be better served going straight sorcerer (or maybe with a non-CL losing PrC), or going Wizard4/Sorc1/UM10 or Beguiler1/Wizard4/UM10, in both of which you take Practiced Spellcaster (CArcane and CDivine) for your spontaneous side which allows you to progress your wizard casting with 10/10 of your level ups and your spontaneous casting at 7/10. That nets you 19/20 spellcasting levels with wizard, which, while not perfect, is better than the losses you'd have. You also get 8 levels of Beguiler or Sorcerer casting, which comes at the loss of only 1 Wizard Spellcasting level.

You can play whatever you want, but these would be my recommendations to you. Either will help you fulfil your desired role of primary caster much much much better than what you have planned.

Need help picking spells?

DareTheRogue
2009-07-10, 12:27 PM
Precocious Aprentice Comp Arcane p181

Allows casting of a 2nd level spell. Thus opening the door to the class

Telonius
2009-07-10, 12:32 PM
For all reasoning I think it is a bad idea to lose the 9th level spells but at the same time I think he did well getting fifth level prepared spells and 8th level spont spells, the highest available with the ability scores if it goes like this.

What do you all think?

Is the DM disallowing Tomes, or not allowing the Tome's bonus to count towards spells available? If not, 27,500gp for a Tome of Leadership and Influence solves your 9th-level spell problem. (I'd recommend a bigger bonus than that, but it's the easiest path to it).

Keld Denar
2009-07-10, 12:41 PM
Precocious Aprentice Comp Arcane p181

Allows casting of a 2nd level spell. Thus opening the door to the class

PE won't work here. The wording on PE makes it so that if you gain 2nd level spells from ANY source, you lose the benefits of PE and instead gain a 2nd level spell slot, which, in your case, would go to sorcerer. Thus, it wouldn't work. Versatile Spellcaster wouldn't work either, since you can't prepare 2nd level spells with it, even though you can cast 2nd level spells with it.

What do you think of the other suggestions?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-10, 03:04 PM
PE won't work here. The wording on PE makes it so that if you gain 2nd level spells from ANY source, you lose the benefits of PE and instead gain a 2nd level spell slot, which, in your case, would go to sorcerer. Thus, it wouldn't work.@the OP:The loop around this is to use the Focused Specialist variant. Lose your PA slot in exchange for 2 slots from your specialist school. Also, is there a reason you're taking so many Sorc levels early on? You want your better class to be close to your worse one when you start UM, and you always want to PrC out of Sorc ASAP.

Assuming you want to keep Sorc over, say, Beguiler, you'll also want to rearange the statblock:
Str 13
Dex 13
Con 13
Int 15
Wis 8
Cha 16
You don't need wis for anything(you have 3 classes with a good Will save), and you care a lot more about spells than HP. I'd even suggest being middle-aged, for:
Str 12
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 9
Cha 17
Then put all of your level-ups into Cha, and you get:
Str 12
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 9
Cha 22
Toss in items, and your Sorc casting is actually useful.

Douglas
2009-07-10, 03:25 PM
Is the DM disallowing Tomes, or not allowing the Tome's bonus to count towards spells available? If not, 27,500gp for a Tome of Leadership and Influence solves your 9th-level spell problem. (I'd recommend a bigger bonus than that, but it's the easiest path to it).
A simple Headband of Intellect and Cloak of Charisma is enough, no need for Tomes. It doesn't matter how you get the requisite ability score, just that you have it for the entirety of the learning and scribing process, whenever you prepare the high level spells, and whenever you cast one.

@Sstoopidtallkid
I got the impression the statblock was nonnegotiable.

Keld Denar
2009-07-10, 03:53 PM
Also, is there a reason you're taking so many Sorc levels early on? You want your better class to be close to your worse one when you start UM, and you always want to PrC out of Sorc ASAP.


UM has 3 major prereqs to meet. 2nd level prepared casting, 1st level spontaneous casting, and 8 ranks in Spellcraft. That means that its impossible to qualify for UM before level 5, and the first UM level is always 6+. Since he has to have 5 levels before UM, 4 in Sorc and 1 in Wiz makes sense...I guess.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-10, 04:00 PM
What's the race? You can use Illumian to avoid losing one of the Sorc levels to UM(though why you're taking Argent Savant I'll never know).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-10, 05:25 PM
Str 8
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 13
Cha 13

Any reason why you don't want to cast higher than 3rd level Sorcerer spells? Or higher than 5th level Wizard spells? Your stats are in the wrong places. Switch out CHA for CON and you have... better stats for what you are attempting to do. However, you're gonna need at LEAST a 19 in both Int and Cha *BEFORE MAGIC ITEMS* to be able to cast 9th level spells.

Keld Denar
2009-07-10, 05:39 PM
No, you can qualify for high level spellcasting with magic items. 1/2 casters like Paladins and Rangers rely on it all the time. Its generally bad habit for primary spellcasters though, since that means your saves are rather low and you won't get many bonus spells, but its entirely possible to cast 9th level spells with only a 13 in the stat and a +6 stat item.

And considering he'll never get 9th level sorcerer spells with his build, and he'll never have higher than 5th level wizard spells, he doesn't need 19s in either...

Darrin
2009-07-10, 06:17 PM
UM has 3 major prereqs to meet. 2nd level prepared casting, 1st level spontaneous casting, and 8 ranks in Spellcraft. That means that its impossible to qualify for UM before level 5, and the first UM level is always 6+.

Well... not exactly impossible. Favored + Primary Contact (Cityscape feats) would let you get in after level 4. So... Focused Specialist Wizard 1 + Prec. App./Sorcerer 3. Feat retraining or Dark Chaos Shuffle can recycle Favored/Primary Contact (and also Prec. App.) into something more useful.

Go kobold and you can get that caster level spent on Wizard back.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-10, 10:54 PM
Really, with those stats (and really. being sensible) I'd reverse this.
First level is Wizard, but then you only need a single level of sorcerer to qualify. So I'd take one more in Wizard, then Master Specialist/Wizard 2 depending on if he is a specialist or not.
Would gain access to 9th level spells with Wizard that way.

Much more powerful character over-all as well.

But I am guessing the Argent class is the build focus.
Well, not sure if I could do better than that. :P
BTW: Precocious Aprentice does count as far as my understanding of it's reading it gives you a second level wizard slot when you gain secnod level spells from any source. You also get to keep the spell you learned for it in your spellbook, so you may cast level 2 spells no probs.