Why hasn't Xykon went to the next gate?

[Vaarsuvius4181]

If the oots has been in there shenanigans for months, why doesnt xykon go and claim the next gate?

[FoE]

If the oots has been in there shenanigans for months, why doesnt xykon go and claim the next gate?

Because Redcloak has been stalling Xykon under the pretense of torturing O'Chul for information in order to give the hobgoblins time to consolidate their control over Azure City. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)

[Aris Katsaris]

It was suggested by Xykon in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html ) only for Redcloak to convince him otherwise.

[Berserk Monk]

Red Cloak told Xykon that they should research the Gates via torturing O-Chul.

[theinsulabot]

in addition to what the previous posters said, that is also one of the reasons X holds RC personally responsible for the fiasco that culminates in the phylactery being lost, because X wanted to leave right after they finished looting azure city, and RC pressed him to stay

[pflare]

RC wanted to stay in order to build up the power of the "new" Azure City under hobgoblin control. He mentioned building traidng partnerships etc. He also stalled Xykon because he wanted to know what was gaurding the next Gate so they don't have a similar phiasco as the one at the azure gate (when the Gohst martyrs attacked them). He was hoping to gain information from
O-Chul but that didn't pan out (Soon's oath prevented him from knowing any information about other gates).

[Jagos]

And let's not forget Lirian's Gate. Which was STILL his fault

[NerfTW]

I'm under the impression that Lirian meant for the treants to be able to destroy the gate like that if it was in danger. Considering she had a direct link to Dorukon, and his gate also had a similar self destruct option (as opposed to Soon's gate that was harder to destroy), I think they figured they'd always have each other to rebuild the gate if necessary. So really, the gate would have been destroyed without the flame strike spell, just not as quickly.

[Liwen]

I also suspect that Redcloak has a silent hope of actually establishing a strong goblin nation without the need to further the plan. He did conquered the nation that seems to have hunted his kind the most in the history of world, and is now in possession of a fortified fairly huge city and it's countrysides. If Xykon was out of the way, he would probably take a shot at this and claim the south to be the kingdom of all goblins or something.

Of course, this could always result in a huge alliance of other humanoids powers to take the city down. To avoid this, Redcloak could attempt to peacefully bring them to accept goblins as a legitimate player in the world, but we know from the Dark One's history that it didn't worked out so well.

So my belief is : Redcloak still thinks the Plan is his best shot, and given everything he committed to it already, he won't give it up. But he strongly wishes to have other options like the one exposed above

[Ancalagon]

I also suspect that Redcloak has a silent hope of actually establishing a strong goblin nation without the need to further the plan.

I think that's the entire point. Redcloak wants strong goblins, the "plan" is the best shot, but that does not keep him from fortifying the goblin-position in the world wherever he can.

The hope is not silent... he just does not tell Xykon about it. ;)

[David Argall]

Basic answer: The plot needs an inactive Xykon. He is just a support character after all, and so we want him quiet when the main characters have other fish to fry. He is to reach the next gate "just" as the party does, and so we create excuses for him sitting around until the party is ready to arrive.

Prime excuse: Xykon has no idea he is in any sort of race. The gates have been there for decades and he and Redcloak aren't getting any older. If they can improve their chances by waiting, why not? So they work to get all the information they can, and if Redcloak can get a secondary plan of a hobgoblin nation going, why not?

[Vargtass]

I'm under the impression that Lirian meant for the treants to be able to destroy the gate like that if it was in danger. Considering she had a direct link to Dorukon, and his gate also had a similar self destruct option (as opposed to Soon's gate that was harder to destroy), I think they figured they'd always have each other to rebuild the gate if necessary. So really, the gate would have been destroyed without the flame strike spell, just not as quickly.

Actually, when you put it like that, it seems apparent that the Azure Gate did not have a specific self-destruct mechanism because it was not needed. Last paladin standing could always (try to (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)) execute the destruction by a katana strike (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html).
This fact seems to be understood (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html), and even part of the plan (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html).

[Ancalagon]

Prime excuse: Xykon has no idea he is in any sort of race. The gates have been there for decades and he and Redcloak aren't getting any older. If they can improve their chances by waiting, why not? So they work to get all the information they can, and if Redcloak can get a secondary plan of a hobgoblin nation going, why not?

They should wait even longer: Neither of them are getting older. Why not just wait 20 years while the order of the stick guards the gates, grows old, gets bored, makes a families and leaves?
Imagine: The Order arrives at Giard's Gate, but Xykon and Redcloak do not show up. What do they do? They wait. For 10 years? 20? 30?
Long-term-planning while having A LOT of time available is something both Redcloak nor Xykon seem to understand. (Ok, it would be bad for the plot if they did ;))

[NerfTW]

Red Cloak might have delayed his aging, but we don't know for sure that he won't age and die eventually.

Also, there's always the chance of him dying and the ritual not being possible. If they stay put in one place, they risk EXACTLY what just happened happening. Also, now that they're moving on the gates, the other two gates could be warned and fortified.

Also, Xykon is bored easily. He's not going to go for going into hiding for twenty years, especially when it just means they'll make more defenses at the other two gates.

[the_tick_rules]

Even Xykon needs to take a vacation.

[Tempest Fennac]

Another problem with waiting for RC is that delaying the plan more would result in more Goblin deaths (while he's willing to delay for a while in order to help establish Azure City as a Goblin city, I doubt he's want to wait for years if it's not needed).

[Morquard]

Actually, when you put it like that, it seems apparent that the Azure Gate did not have a specific self-destruct mechanism because it was not needed. Last paladin standing could always (try to (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)) execute the destruction by a katana strike (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html).
This fact seems to be understood (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html), and even part of the plan (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html).

Actually it fits pretty well with the mentality of those involved. Lirian was a druid, she thought the powers of nature are the best guardian, so she uses them to destroy the gate if necessary. Durokan was a wizard who thought anything beside arcane power is useless in guarding the gate, and so his trigger and wards were all magical. Well besides the "pure heart" crap, but that stems from an area before Rich thought out the plot as it is now.
Soon thought only the honor of paladins bla bla, so his self destruct mechanism is a paladin.
I'm not quite sure how an illusionist would implement it, but probably similar to Durokan.
And the halfling, she was a rogue, right? She might have build some sophisticated epic traps that destroy the gate if its threatened maybe? (and to protect it too)

[Olorin Maia]

I'm pretty sure that the halfling used huge animals to honor the dwarf barbarian who believed in physical power. And I was always under the assumption that Dorukon put the self-destruct because he saw the possibility of misuse, not that they all put one there.

[EndlessWrath]

*snip*
I'm not quite sure how an illusionist would implement it, but probably similar to Durokan.
*snip*

If he was a REALLY good illusionist.. wouldn't he just fake the gate to self destruct and hide it again behind more illusions? :smallamused:

*edit*:

I'm pretty sure that the halfling used huge animals to honor the dwarf barbarian who believed in physical power. And I was always under the assumption that Dorukon put the self-destruct because he saw the possibility of misuse, not that they all put one there.

Good point. to add to your point i submit Look! I said it was an accident ok? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)

[Morquard]

If he was a REALLY good illusionist.. wouldn't he just fake the gate to self destruct and hide it again behind more illusions? :smallamused:
Hmm, you make a good point, yeah I can actually even see that happening.


Good point. to add to your point i submit Look! I said it was an accident ok? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)
Just because Redcloak doesn't think it was a deliberate act, does not mean it was not.
Hmm, true the halfling girl used the giant animals. But that doesn't mean she didn't add a few tricks of her own as well.

[Haven]

Long-term-planning while having A LOT of time available is something both Redcloak nor Xykon seem to understand. (Ok, it would be bad for the plot if they did ;))

It's pretty clear that Redcloak -does- understand it. And that Xykon either doesn't, or he does but chooses not to apply it.

[factotum]

Actually, I think that Xykon has a lot more trouble with SHORT-term planning than long term stuff. He's been working toward the goal of the gates for around 20 years now, which is seriously long-term planning; it's the stuff that's happening tomorrow (e.g. what troop dispositions do they use when attacking Azure City) that bore him.

[NerfTW]

If he was a REALLY good illusionist.. wouldn't he just fake the gate to self destruct and hide it again behind more illusions? :smallamused:

*edit*:


Good point. to add to your point i submit Look! I said it was an accident ok? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)

If you've read Start of Darkness, you'd see the scene in it's entirety, where we see that:

The Treants forming the gate ran away from a fire started with a flamestrike spell. While it may have been premature, all signs point to Lirian believing that she could just port Dorukon over at any time to fix it, otherwise she would have given them more protection. (ya know, besides the giant army)

[kusje]

If you've read Start of Darkness, you'd see the scene in it's entirety, where we see that:

The Treants forming the gate ran away from a fire started with a flamestrike spell. While it may have been premature, all signs point to Lirian believing that she could just port Dorukon over at any time to fix it, otherwise she would have given them more protection. (ya know, besides the giant army)

If that could be done, then why didn't she just get Dorukon to come and help the first time the gate was under attack?

[NerfTW]

Uh, because she won the first time? She didn't really expect Xykon to become a Lich and kill her in two rounds with no warning.

[Conuly]

If that could be done, then why didn't she just get Dorukon to come and help the first time the gate was under attack?

Maybe she figured that there could be a concerted effort to attack multiple gates at once, and she didn't want to call him in until and unless it was necessary? Maybe she simply didn't have time? Maybe she figured - correctly - that she had it all under control and didn't need the help?

[Bibliomancer]

Red Cloak might have delayed his aging, but we don't know for sure that he won't age and die eventually.

How did Redcloak accomplish this?

Also, if RC and Xykon sit around by the Azure City Gate, eventually they will get crushed by an epic-level Order of the Stick which is rebuilding the gates. They could gain the information by using Plane Shift to talk to the gods, and then have V and Durkon rebuild the gates. I doubt that Xykon and RC are getting much xp from sitting around in a fortified city.

[Conuly]

How did Redcloak accomplish this?

SoD spoiler:

With his red cloak. It slows aging and keeps you from getting certain contagious illnesses.

[Bibliomancer]

SoD spoiler:

With his red cloak. It slows aging and keeps you from getting certain contagious illnesses.

Ah...thanks.

[rewinn]

Xykon has no idea he is in any sort of race

And even if he knows that the Order is out to stop him, his contempt for them is pretty high.

[Lex315]

What Gate?:wink:

[MythicFox]

They should wait even longer: Neither of them are getting older. Why not just wait 20 years while the order of the stick guards the gates, grows old, gets bored, makes a families and leaves?
Imagine: The Order arrives at Giard's Gate, but Xykon and Redcloak do not show up. What do they do? They wait. For 10 years? 20? 30?
Long-term-planning while having A LOT of time available is something both Redcloak nor Xykon seem to understand. (Ok, it would be bad for the plot if they did ;))

Xykon has all the patience of a caffeine-addicted ferret.

Redcloak could probably handle some subtle, long-term planning like that. But then what happens when, say, the Order of the Stick or some other group of adventurers decides to be pro-active because they'll sort out he's just waiting for them to die off?

[Ancalagon]

Xykon has all the patience of a caffeine-addicted ferret.

True. But he does not mind if he kills for "the plan", "some other plan", or "just for fun and he even forgot what it was about".


Redcloak could probably handle some subtle, long-term planning like that. But then what happens when, say, the Order of the Stick or some other group of adventurers decides to be pro-active because they'll sort out he's just waiting for them to die off?

Well, where would they look for them? And what reason would they have to become pro-active? I also guess that adventurers are pretty easy to distract... all you have to do is to get some old men who sends them to the other side of the world on some crude quest...

[Qubanz]

Until he has his phylactery back, I don't think Xykon is going anywhere.

(Although would it be so bad for his phylactery to be lost to everyone? Means no one can destroy it.)

[Dixieboy]

Until he has his phylactery back, I don't think Xykon is going anywhere.

(Although would it be so bad for his phylactery to be lost to everyone? Means no one can destroy it.)
Potentially having to respawn inside the belly of some giant monster isn't very practical, or enjoyable. (I would assume)

[Thrax]

Until he has his phylactery back, I don't think Xykon is going anywhere.

(Although would it be so bad for his phylactery to be lost to everyone? Means no one can destroy it.)

I think the loss of philactery was made to move him finally. Imagine how convenient it would be if it drifted through the ocean to the Western Continent, where Xykon comes to conquer the gate "by the way".

[pflare]

The loss of his phylactery was what pushed him into moving and back into the role of "leader" of team evil yes. Up until that point he was totally being manipulated into staying by Redcloak. Lets not forget that Redcloak's mission is to advance the cause of goblinoids and that's why he started the goblin nation. That's also what he wants to use the gate's for. Oh and let's not forget that before Xykon was a lich Redcloak was the more powerful of the two.

[sihnfahl]

And even if he knows that the Order is out to stop him, his contempt for them is pretty high.
I wouldn't call it contempt; more like disinterest in their current abilities.

Xykon actually LIKES Roy ... at least, what Roy represents. The do-gooder, the hero, the guy who steps up and fights for what he believes in.

But Xykon also likes a good fight, and Roy's too low level to actually give Xykon a challenge.

And, if there's something Xykon likes, it's being challenged.

(It's about the only thing he can enjoy nowadays, what with having, oh, no NERVES?)

[kusje]

Oh and let's not forget that before Xykon was a lich Redcloak was the more powerful of the two.

No.

10 characters.

[Squark]

Well, at the very least, he was controllable prior to his lichdom. A complete bozo,* certainly, and RC had no trouble directing him, apart from preventing him from making mistakes.


*The man once petrified a group of goblins with a baby basilisk while asking if it was safe to eat. And (accidentally. The lich Xykon would do it on purpose) placed a cloudkill on a crowd of goblins)


SOD spoiler on RC's aging
It's implied that RC hasn't aged a day since he put on the cloak, since RightEye said he hadn't grown up at all, and was still a teenage boy in temperment (presumably he's also still about that age).

[Bibliomancer]

Oh and let's not forget that before Xykon was a lich Redcloak was the more powerful of the two.

Not unless being venerable equals -10 levels.

The point is that at this point I don't think Redcloak could get Xykon to wait for him to uncover a pile of infinite money, let alone wait around for decades on the off chance that they won't have to fight a party that they trounced recently.

[73 Bits of Lint]

They should wait even longer: Neither of them are getting older. Why not just wait 20 years while the order of the stick guards the gates, grows old, gets bored, makes a families and leaves?
They don't view the Order as an actual threat. Sure, Xykon and Redcloak recognize Roy as PCs/Protagonists, but such people are apparently not uncommon in the world of OotS (the Harry Potter expy that Thog kills comes to mind, also the Paladin couple). Waiting 20 years for the minimal threat of the present to go away also means waiting 20 years for a greater (possibly even epic level) threat to rear its head.
There's got to be a few war orphans from the battle for Azure City, at least.

[Herald Alberich]

Waiting 20 years for the minimal threat of the present to go away also means waiting 20 years for a greater (possibly even epic level) threat to rear its head.
There's got to be a few war orphans from the battle for Azure City, at least.

Right, or, as someone implied, that epic threat could be the Order itself in 20 years, if, rather than getting bored and retiring, they, for example, rescue Haley's dad, or find out about a threat to Kraagor's gate and defeat all the monsters around it while they're there, or just go on lots of sidequests until they feel ready to go after Xykon again.

That is, after all, what Xykon told Roy to do, and after having the perspective of being dead he might decide it's a good idea after all if Xykon doesn't seem to be actively threatening anyone.