I just finished SoD

[Ripped Shirt Kirk]

Wow. I have one thing to say. Redcloak, you are a DUMBASS.

Anyways, I LOVED it, I can't wait to get OtooPCs!

[littlequietguy]

Heh. No offense but it is kinda amusing how people judge fictional characters in the way they do. When people were talking about Old blind pete and saying he deserved it, I doubt many of us would actually kill him or even let someone else do it if it were real. Although that is unfair of me to say I guess. Redcloak was smart but in the end he couldn't sacrifice his own ambition.

[Berserk Monk]

Wow. I have one thing to say. Redcloak, you are a DUMBASS.

Anyways, I LOVED it, I can't wait to get OtooPCs!

Yeah, it's an awesome book. It's easy to see why it was nominated for an award a work by Alan Moore was also nominated in.

[Jagos]

Heh. No offense but it is kinda amusing how people judge fictional characters in the way they do. When people were talking about Old blind pete and saying he deserved it, I doubt many of us would actually kill him or even let someone else do it if it were real. Although that is unfair of me to say I guess. Redcloak was smart but in the end he couldn't sacrifice his own ambition.

True, but given the context if a friend betrayed me and I knew about a cutscene saying so, I'd probably want his head. ;)

[Boaromir]

I think the main question that is begging to be asked is: when did you get SoD?

[Forbiddenwar]

True, but given the context if a friend betrayed me and I knew about a cutscene saying so, I'd probably want his head. ;)

Old blind pete didn't betray anyone. he was trying to save Haley and take down the guild and destroy Bozak at the same time. His failure was a lack of time before Belker killed him. Old blind pete was noble.

[Santiago]

Heh. No offense but it is kinda amusing how people judge fictional characters in the way they do. When people were talking about Old blind pete and saying he deserved it, I doubt many of us would actually kill him or even let someone else do it if it were real. Although that is unfair of me to say I guess. Redcloak was smart but in the end he couldn't sacrifice his own ambition.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UJXjve70XLg/SZLXDWIrB3I/AAAAAAAAAJM/GJqj8t4tGkI/s320/Buzz_(150_x_255).jpg

Hehe, all in good fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Ripped Shirt Kirk]

I think the main question that is begging to be asked is: when did you get SoD?

I just got it today. Friday, July 10 2009.

[Boaromir]

I just got it today. Friday, July 10 2009.



Good man. Good man indeed.

[SadisticFishing]

I did not enjoy the Dorukan fight.

[Jagos]

Old blind pete didn't betray anyone. he was trying to save Haley and take down the guild and destroy Bozak at the same time. His failure was a lack of time before Belker killed him. Old blind pete was noble.

And he'd sell his own mother for a nickel and a dime and ask for change to do it again. Seriously, I don't think he was all that good a person.

[xyzzy]

And he'd sell his own mother for a nickel and a dime and ask for change to do it again. Seriously, I don't think he was all that good a person.

Uh... thread fail?

And on-topic, I wouldn't call him a dumbass so much as just driven. His ambition and willingness to do whatever is necessary is both his biggest strength and biggest weakness.

[Berserk Monk]

I did not enjoy the Dorukan fight.

I enjoyed it. Granted, it was kind of not all shown what with the dialogue between Right Eye and Red Cloak, but Xykon gave a cool, badass death speech to Dorukan as he energy drained his ass.

[kpenguin]

I find the the jubilant :smallbiggrin: rather different than the facial expression one would have at the end of SoD. A :smallfrown: or a :smalleek: or even a :smallsigh: would have been my expectation.

[Optimystik]

I did not enjoy the Dorukan fight.

Lirian round 2 was far, far worse. I was literally cringing.

Poison, Lirian? Really? And then of all the dragons to morph into, you choose one with a lightning weapon? And then on top of all that, you tell Xykon there are more Gates waiting to be found?

She took that Idiot Ball and went straight for the touchdown!

[SadisticFishing]

The Dorukan fight made me cringe for different reasons. The combat was completely outside of logical rules - it was made to show Xykon being powerful, but it just brought off Dorukan as an idiot unable to cast spells to protect both himself and life as we know it.

The Lirian fight just made several assumptions - liches are very rare: fair assumption. The lightning part I was okay with. The bite should have made it through the DR, by the way :P

The Poison? That was just silly. Not knowing that undead are immune to poison... seems impossible.

The extra gate, slip, I'm okay with because she clearly isn't that intelligent, and it furthered the plot. I think the Idiot Ball assumes you're shown nothing but cunning up to that point.

So to me, it's a comparison of trying Poison on an undead, and DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as someone DRAINS YOUR LIFE OUT OF YOU. The second seems far more offensive to me.

Ack. End rant.

[Kairamek]

I find the the jubilant :smallbiggrin: rather different than the facial expression one would have at the end of SoD. A :smallfrown: or a :smalleek: or even a :smallsigh: would have been my expectation.

Well he needed time to load up the forum page and start the post. When I first read it I was :smalleek: for about two minutes, then :smallbiggrin: for the rest of day. I mean that book was complete awesome. Before reading it I saw Xykon as a particularly amusing and genre savey (in that he followed them to the letter, not avoided the pitfalls) funny villian, with Redcloak as his straight man. After reading it I feared Xykon. This (former) man is well and truely evil. This guy crossed the Moral Event Horizon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon) before we met him and I didn't know it till I watched him do in the prequel! And Redcloak? From annoying straight man to totally sympathetic. While I want the good guys to win and the badguys to loose, I do hold to hope that his plan for a goblin kingdom comes through. Hell, it might be done already depending how Azure City turns out.
But Xykon? No. He can't loose and back to being a random annoyance on the goodly people. He has to die. Die. G** D*** M***** F***** DIE!

[derfenrirwolv]

I did not enjoy the Dorukan fight.

Me either.

Don't get me wrong, its one of my favorite books, but Xykons rant about how raw power is more useful than the delicate refined power of a wizards switch watch would be better used if, you know...

He actually fought a wizard that USED his magic like a Swiss watch?

[Tempest Fennac]

I know what you guys mean about both fight scenes. I can understand Lirian not realising lightning wouldn't work, but surely a Heal would have beena better spell choice there? Same for Dorukan not being willing to protect himself from negative energy even though Limited Wish would let him use Death Ward. A Disintigrate would have finished Xykon in 1 shot as well (we know Dorukon didn't bar transmutation due to the teleport and fly spells he used).

[Ancalagon]

Lirian round 2 was far, far worse. I was literally cringing.

Poison, Lirian? Really? And then of all the dragons to morph into, you choose one with a lightning weapon? And then on top of all that, you tell Xykon there are more Gates waiting to be found?

She took that Idiot Ball and went straight for the touchdown!

Which I only find fitting, she was portrayed as "good-hearted" and a bit "naive" before. While she adventured, she had people around her who would guide her powers in a useful way, now she was alone and of course screwed up.
A person, who ditches out a cure serious wound to heal an arrow-wound while her forest (including the gate!) is under attack is to be expected to give out there's more gates.
Yes, she was utterly stupid but it was perfectly fitting, as it nicely portrayed not everyone is a tactician (and while the poison vs and obvious undead was a mistake she really SHOULD not have made (as druid I mean), the other two are more excuseable or at least "believable",

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point about the wasted CSW. Now that I think about it, I'd say not killing the survivious, or at least not taking their magical items, while just assuming that they were magicless thanks to the virus was the most stupid thing she did.

[FlawedParadigm]

I know what you guys mean about both fight scenes. I can understand Lirian not realising lightning wouldn't work, but surely a Heal would have beena better spell choice there? Same for Dorukan not being willing to protect himself from negative energy even though Limited Wish would let him use Death Ward. A Disintigrate would have finished Xykon in 1 shot as well (we know Dorukon didn't bar transmutation due to the teleport and fly spells he used).

I'm going to try and play Devil's Advocate here and see how far I get. What actually bothered me about the Poison wasn't her attempt to use it on undead; I assumed she panicked at the attack and just sort of reflexively chose Poison. What bothered me was someone I assumed was Neutral Good from her previous actions *reflexively* using Poison. Use of poison (the substance, as opposed to the spell) is not usually something listed under the Good alignments. We end up with the Familicide Effect again - is doing something evil to someone evil still evil? I'd rather not discuss it in this particular case, past the point of repeating that I was more offended from a moral rather than tactical standpoint there.

As for not using Heal, I figured she was just out of spell slots for that level...but still, she ought to have had a Cure Critical Wounds or something. Of course, she doesn't spontaneously cast those, either. Dorukan...now he had an idiot ball the size of Texas, I am thinking. Even ignoring his lack of spellcasting for dramatic purposes of the story, the only excuses I can come up with for not using Wish/Limited Wish to conjure up some sort of protection from Xykon's attacks is that he didn't consider Xykon a credible enough threat to cast a spell with an XP cost for, or being so flustered by what drew him out of his hiding place that he wasn't thinking straight. He even had time to buff while Xykon was busy screwing with the celestials - his own dumb move.

From what Dorukan knew, Gate was probably the smartest thing he did all fight - too bad he didn't know about Xykon's ring. But he should have...Xykon was outside for months on end and I'm pretty sure Dorukan could scry. Plus, we know Dorukan was Epic (he'd cast Cloister previously) and unless it's due to his +ECL from the Lich template, we have no evidence that Xykon himself was Epic yet. Dorukan didn't do half the preparation he should have - possibly arrogance - and got killed for it. So basically, depending on how far we're willing to credit emotions, all of what happened could have done so logically, but in Dorukan's case especially, we're talking about Miko-sized pride. And yes, I'm aware Miko is quickly becoming the GitP version of Godwin's Law, but she's a very good example for fatal flaws.

[Tempest Fennac]

The poison spell doesn't have any alignment restrictions. I tend to class things as neutral until they are used for one purpose or another. Based on how many people seemed to know about the gates, I assumed she hadn't spent any spells at all that day due to not needing to. Having said that, someone who worked for her may have developed a cold that morning. :smalltongue:

[Morquard]

I think Durokon suffered from the same weakness as every other wizard in SOD. Namely "Oh its just a sorcerer, not a real spellcaster, I as a wizard am soooooo much better than him".
He didn't explicitly state it like those others did, but I thinlk thats a reason why he didn't bother to buff properly.
Another reason is what Xykon was threatening to do. Even though Durokan was convinced Lirian would be strong enough to see her body get eaten... There's no reason to have her endure it if he can prevent it and wants to kill Xykon anyway. So he had to hurry somewhat.
However Timestop is a level 9 spell, he should be able to cast that to make up for that and buff (buys him 2-5 rounds, each able to cast 2 buffs, like V did against the dragon) maybe with a few delayed spells to waste Xykon the moment it ends.
He had months to prepare for that fight, he should have tons of spells prepared specifically to kill a lich and protect against him.

But as I said he was sure he would win and not need it. Arrogance was the fall of many wizards in SOD and OOTS.

[Anteros]

I'm not sure it's arrogance...it seems more like Xykon just has plot protection until the big dumb fighter can put him down. I'd really be much more impressed with Xykon as a villain if every single one of his victories didn't come from pure luck, or his enemies acting like idiots.

[Kairamek]

What I find interesting in these discussions is that we can suspend our disbelief to accept a walking, talking skelleton and summon a meteor storm far too many times a day but we cannot accept that hasty, paniced, or arrogant people make mistakes.

Granted Dorokan made some very serious tactical errors that make you say "... why?" but it's not without historical precident. I mean, Hitler studied Napoleans very failed invasian of Russia, then did the exact same damn thing with very similar damn results.

Sorry to invoke Godwin's Law here, I wanted to use Napolean as an example but Hitler was more fitting since he should have known better.

[Ancalagon]

Sorry to invoke Godwin's Law here, I wanted to use Napolean as an example but Hitler was more fitting since he should have known better.

I think it is an unfitting and in regard to Dorukon pointless example. It's... as different as it can get, the common ground is "people make mistakes", but here it already ends, not even to motives in the most abstract ways are comparable.

Explaning actions of individuals in a fictionous stories can never be "explained" with the actions of RL madmen, RL-actions, for which the reasons are unknown.

General rule of thumb: If you have to resort to RL-examples about RL-politics in a discussion about a fantasy webcomic, you should take that as strong indicator something is utterly flawed with your arguments.

[Kish]

General rule of thumb: If you have to resort to RL-examples about RL-politics in a discussion about a fantasy webcomic, you should take that as strong indicator something is utterly flawed with your arguments.
Given that we all, authors and readers, live in the real world, I find this rule of thumb mystifying.

[Kairamek]

Explaning actions of individuals in a fictionous stories can never be "explained" with the actions of RL madmen, RL-actions, for which the reasons are unknown.

General rule of thumb: If you have to resort to RL-examples about RL-politics in a discussion about a fantasy webcomic, you should take that as strong indicator something is utterly flawed with your arguments.

I could not disagree more. The Real World and/or Real Life strongly influance the creative process. Understanding how real people act in situations, then following that logical or emotional progression, makes for believable characters. So if following realist personal growth or motivations leads to good chracters, than good characters can be compared to real people, since real people follow realistic personal development or motivations by definition.

Therefore, I posit that compairing fantasy characters to real life people is not a failure of an argument, but a demonstration of the original author's skill.

In the case I am using here, Hitler had years to study Napolean's failed invations and learn from it. He proceeded to not learn from it and out of arrogance or over eagerness promptly got whooped. Dorukon had 6 months to prepair for a fight with the lich (which he claims he did), then got trounced. I believe his arrogance resulted in flawed preparations.

If you would prefer a non-real life example, take Yoda and Sidious at the end of Episode 3. Yoda spent his life, some 900+ years, in study and preperation to fight the Sith should they return. But per the novelized version (which explains a bit more what's going on in his head during the fight), Yoda realizes that Jedi's methods, stuck in tradition, are not the meathods of force manipulation and understanding needed to win. Many people wonder why he just quits the feild in the movie, per the book it's the realization that he "just doesn't have it." Kind of what happened here. Dorukon just didn't have it.

[Morgan Wick]

Poison, Lirian? Really? And then of all the dragons to morph into, you choose one with a lightning weapon? And then on top of all that, you tell Xykon there are more Gates waiting to be found?

She took that Idiot Ball and went straight for the touchdown!

WILD MASS GUESSING ALERT! Lirian WANTED Xykon to go after the other gates in order to Make A Better World! She was just like Redcloak and V will realize this and take Redcloak's side in the end!

[Jan Mattys]

1- Any Epic Wizard NOT protecting himself from negative energy against an epic Lich camping outside his door waiting for a fight in 6 months... DESERVES the most brutal death possible.

2- That said, I liked the fight. I don't care much about the d&d rules as long as the Plot is involved...

3- And last but not least, Dorukan gets one of the best badass moments in the whole serie.

"I've had clerics trying to resurrect her for years and we never could find her soul. Now I know why, and how to fix it, and who's to blame.
GATE!"

This moment just made me cheer, even if I knew all too well that Xykon was going to win the fight in the end... :smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for explaining about the Yoda fight, Kairamek. :smallsmile: I wondered why he withdrew when there was so much riding on him winning that battle. Regarding the theory that Lirian let Xykon own her, there's no evidence that she had a clue about RC's plans, or why NPC races were created. Also, if she wanted to help those races, she was in the perfect position to do so as an Epic Level Druid anyway, so the plan would have been irrelevant if she was intending to help the Goblins. Regarding the rules, I don't care as much about them either, but I expect people to act in a fashion which goes with their mental stats rather then doing ridiculous things because Xykon has to survive.

[FlawedParadigm]

On a slightly related sidenote, I wonder what happens if Xykon ever gets his bones on Momento Mori, since no one in the Stickverse seems to be aware of the Death Ward spell or anything like it. Must be why there's a prevalance of "Save vs. You Lose" spells amongst the casting classes.

[Morquard]

Could Xykon have debuffed Durokan between panels offscreen (maybe while RC and RE were talking?)
The giant said he doesn't always spell out every action, and sometimes we have to use our imagination.

That certianly makes more sense than "Durokan was to stupid to buff"

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point, Morquard. I assumed that anything important would have been shown due to the importance of that fight, though.

[Forbiddenwar]

That is a good point, Morquard. I assumed that anything important would have been shown due to the importance of that fight, though.

You know what they say about assuming things (ass U and vases). Especially when the Giant has stated numerously that this is not the case. action does indeed occur between panels and between strips. I imagine one of the first actions Xykon did was debuff Duroken.
The Giant has a lot to consider when deciding what goes in a panel and what doesn't.
What is vital to understanding the characters and the story is most important.
What is enjoyable to the widest audience (jokes coolness, not necessarily D&D minutia)
Then, only if there is room in the 9 only panels, does he show more action.

These considerations effect making a book as well as making a webcomic. Would you have paid an extra $50 for SOD if the book was 400 pages instead of 100? And if 50-100 pages were devoted solely on the round by round showdown between X and D, with little dialogue just a spell every 2-3 panels? Few people would.
That's why it is in black and white, by the way. By making the book smaller and B&W, Giant makes it cheaper, so he can sell it at a lower price, so more people can and will buy it, So more people will read and enjoy it. Which is why Giant has to examine each panel and each bit of dialogue and ask: Does it add to the characters or story? Does it add to the general entertainment for the widest audience? No, then why the hell should I draw it and include it in the book or webcomic?

[Tempest Fennac]

I know that's an issue. On the other hand, if it's not shown, there's no evidence of it happening unless it's refered to at another point in the comic.

[FlawedParadigm]

I know that's an issue. On the other hand, if it's not shown, there's no evidence of it happening unless it's refered to at another point in the comic.

Or to quote many, many people in IRC, "Pix or it didn't happen."

Although that's not an exact quote, given how vastly I improved the grammar.

[Kairamek]

I know that's an issue. On the other hand, if it's not shown, there's no evidence of it happening unless it's refered to at another point in the comic.
On the other hand, there is no evidence it did not happen. It's Xykonberg's Uncertainty Spell.

Xykonberg's Uncertainty Spell
Level: Sorc 9
Compontents: Caster Off-Screen
Range: As Needed
Target: Anything
Duration: Immediate
Saving Throw: Why Bother?
Spell Resistance: Hahahaha!
Description: This spell does something convient to achieve the results required by the plotline. Because this occurs off panel it is up to the reader to figure out what it did and allows the reader to sustain his or her disbelief.
Special: Use of Xykonberg's Uncertainty Spell allows forum posters to make saving throws against claims of Plot Armor

[Larkspur]

Well the Redcloak/Right-Eye argument jumps weirdly in the same sequence- Redcloak says they can't risk a reprisal, we cut to tacos, we cut to Xykon, we cut back to tacos, we cut back to R&R and suddenly Right-Eye's claiming Redcloak is a hypocrite who only cares about the Plan- either we missed a whole chunk of the argument or Right-Eye's made a total non sequitur.

I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that sequence is happening in "real time," so anyone who's not in a particular panel is still doing things even while the camera is following someone else.

But Dorukan shouldn't have just sat around letting Xykon debuff him, offscreen or no. How did Xykon last long enough to get to the blasting stage? (And it rather undermines his might > bright argument, since debuffing someone is, in fact, strategy as opposed to blasting. Not that he's particularly opposed to using strategy, as his recent fights have demonstrated, but lately he hasn't been giving people lectures on how it's worthless either.)

[Morquard]

Xykon isn't for long term planning, he basicly does what he feels like.
However in a fight he's using strategy. If said stategy consists of spamming Energy Drain till the world ends because its the most effective spell, then he'll do it.
He tried his usual Energy Draining on V, when he noticed it doesn't have an effect he desired he used Superb Dispelling. And a rock. And crushed his throat.

He's capable of strategy, usually his strategy is "Blast it till it dies" but he's smart enough to see when its not working and changes the way he acts.

[Optimystik]

He's capable of strategy, usually his strategy is "Blast it till it dies" but he's smart enough to see when its not working and changes the way he acts.

I disagree. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) No, Xykon's a one-trick pony... it just so happens that his one trick is quite good.


I think Durokon suffered from the same weakness as every other wizard in SOD. Namely "Oh its just a sorcerer, not a real spellcaster, I as a wizard am soooooo much better than him".
He didn't explicitly state it like those others did, but I thinlk thats a reason why he didn't bother to buff properly.

In a way, he did. "Bah! You did not earn your magic, it came to you in your blood" or words to that effect... he was just as dismissive as Fyron, if less pedantic.


Given that we all, authors and readers, live in the real world, I find this rule of thumb mystifying.

I think he was just referring to the fact that no discussion NEEDS Godwin's Law to be invoked, and that there is always a better way to make your point.

[Morquard]

In a way, he did. "Bah! You did not earn your magic, it came to you in your blood" or words to that effect... he was just as dismissive as Fyron, if less pedantic.
Did he? Hm, alright, should have checked but don't have SOD with me here.

I never really understood that anyway. "I needed to spend 20 years learning to ride my bike, while you could just do it the first time you saw one. Obviously I'm the better biker than you because I had to earn it" is along the same line of thought, but absolutely stupid.

Sorcs can basicly cast the same spells, but have a more limited selection (but every single spell a wiz has a sorc can have too). They get more spells per day and can pick them spontanously.
Sure a prepared wizard has a bigger selection and can prepare for special situations better.
But I'd say that 90% of the usefull spells a smart sorcerer has too, and he can cast them whenever he wants. I'd say a prepared wizard vs unprepared sorcerer is not as unbalanced as prepared sorcerer vs unprepared wizard