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olelia
2009-07-10, 09:39 PM
Basically what the title says. I've recently acquired TOB and after a lot of asprin I think I have at least a basic grasp of manuevers, recovery, and the general mechanics. At first glance crusader seems the "easiest" to play because its really simple refresh mechanics. But overall...what do you feel is the most "fun" to play. I kinda like the crusader styles with the self healing but overall what are your opinions?

Mr.Moron
2009-07-10, 09:41 PM
All three are a blast, and play to different character types. Warblade is arguably the strongest, if raw power is your thing.

Swordsage just has tons of cool factor going for it though.

Eldariel
2009-07-10, 09:48 PM
When I want a mystical warrior, a sneak or an unarmed combatant, I go Swordsage. When I want a martial badass beat 'em up-kinda guy with nothing but raw skill about him, I go Warblade. When I was a divine warrior, I go Crusader.

I don't find any inherently more fun, just like I don't necessarily find playing a Psion more fun than I find a Warblade; what's most fun is what fits the type you want to play. Warblade has Iron Heart and swift recovery going for him, Swordsage has the largest amount of variety including the tools to adapt depending on the circumstances and what exactly you need and Crusader has free action recovery, and great skillset for a protector/tank-type character.

Vaynor
2009-07-10, 10:35 PM
I love playing a swordsage. The desert maneuvers are a lot of fun, and can be quite powerful when combined with a clever use of the shadow maneuvers.

Weezer
2009-07-10, 10:46 PM
I prefer using Swordsage mostly because my characters tend towards the sneaky side of the spectrum and Swordsage fits that to a T.

That said I have had fun playing with Warblade, its nice having a martial character with more options than full attack, trip, disarm. Never played a crusader though, mostly because i tend to shy away from divine types usually.

Crusader, swordsage, warblade... oh my

Cedrass
2009-07-10, 11:01 PM
I'll ask here since I don't feel the need to create an other thread (plus it may help the OP) but I have the feeling the Swordsage is the weaker of the 3.

He only has d8 HD, a 3/4 BAB and can only wear Light Armor, compare to Crusader or Warblade I don't think he's so great... Sense Magic is a nice touch, but utterly useless in battle, his Wis to AC is nice too, he gets Evasion which is ok and Dual Boost is really good. That being said, his damage output seems to be not so great since he has to rely on Dex and Wis a lot, his BAB doesn't help with that and his low AC will get him to low HP faster than other warriors.

I might be wrong though, but reading the class it's the feeling I get. Feel free to prove me wrong (I know I will be proven wrong, and I'll be glass if I am. Maybe I'll roll one next campaign ;P)

The Glyphstone
2009-07-10, 11:07 PM
Crusader simple? I'd say it has the most complicated maneuver recovery system of the three, because of the whole random-determination. Warblade is the simplest, just make a basic melee attack or spend a standard action brandishing your sword to recover all your maneuvers - Swordsage takes a full turn to recover 1 maneuver. Crusader doesn't take active actions on your part, but it's the most bookkeeping of the three, especially when you factor in the damage reservoir.

olelia
2009-07-10, 11:10 PM
This might sound kinda silly...because I've seen the pixie crusader aura of chaos combo...but does aura of chaos apply to extra damage dice...like the one from divine surge? :smalleek:...if yes..that seems like it can have all types of shenanigans with rogues and the like.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-10, 11:12 PM
I might be wrong though, but reading the class it's the feeling I get. Feel free to prove me wrong (I know I will be proven wrong, and I'll be glass if I am. Maybe I'll roll one next campaign ;P)

My common Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3/Swordsage X build generally does fine in combat. INT to damage. 3d6 Sneak Attack(with Daring Outlaw) plus DEX to damage and +2d6 more Sneak Attack when in Assassin's Stance. Using a strike it goes up to WIS+INT+DEX to damage plus 5d6 sneak plus whatever your weapon is plus any bonus from your strike.

EDIT:


This might sound kinda silly...because I've seen the pixie crusader aura of chaos combo...but does aura of chaos apply to extra damage dice...like the one from divine surge? :smalleek:...if yes..that seems like it can have all types of shenanigans with rogues and the like.

Any damage dice you roll, ever. This is why the 1d2 Crusader gets infinite damage with any 1d2 damage weapon.

olelia
2009-07-10, 11:17 PM
Uh ... erk... <twitch> <thump> <spasm spasm>

Nerd-o-rama
2009-07-10, 11:21 PM
I'll ask here since I don't feel the need to create an other thread (plus it may help the OP) but I have the feeling the Swordsage is the weaker of the 3.

He only has d8 HD, a 3/4 BAB and can only wear Light Armor, compare to Crusader or Warblade I don't think he's so great... Sense Magic is a nice touch, but utterly useless in battle, his Wis to AC is nice too, he gets Evasion which is ok and Dual Boost is really good. That being said, his damage output seems to be not so great since he has to rely on Dex and Wis a lot, his BAB doesn't help with that and his low AC will get him to low HP faster than other warriors.

I might be wrong though, but reading the class it's the feeling I get. Feel free to prove me wrong (I know I will be proven wrong, and I'll be glass if I am. Maybe I'll roll one next campaign ;P)The upside to playing a Swordsage is in the maneuvers - SSages get a lot more maneuvers, and have quite a few more schools to choose them from, compared to the other two.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-10, 11:21 PM
Uh ... erk... <twitch> <thump> <spasm spasm>

1: Infinite Damage is meaningless if you can't hit worth a damn.
2: Concealment>The d2 Crusader.
3: Wizards>>>>>The d2 Crusader.
4: HP damage is a horridly sub-optimal means of dealing damage.
5; This trick doesn't work until 11th level or so.
6: Pun-Pun>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The d2 Crusader.

Any questions?

olelia
2009-07-10, 11:22 PM
Its not the infinite damage... its just the silliness of the re rolling any damage dice...that just seems to have a lot of possibilities...

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-10, 11:24 PM
Its not the infinite damage... its just the silliness of the re rolling any damage dice...that just seems to have a lot of possibilities...

Not really. It only works on attacks, so spells don't get it unless they require an attack roll. And the investment required to get this ability is just more than most Full casters should be willing to pay.

Vaynor
2009-07-10, 11:24 PM
I'll ask here since I don't feel the need to create an other thread (plus it may help the OP) but I have the feeling the Swordsage is the weaker of the 3.

He only has d8 HD, a 3/4 BAB and can only wear Light Armor, compare to Crusader or Warblade I don't think he's so great... Sense Magic is a nice touch, but utterly useless in battle, his Wis to AC is nice too, he gets Evasion which is ok and Dual Boost is really good. That being said, his damage output seems to be not so great since he has to rely on Dex and Wis a lot, his BAB doesn't help with that and his low AC will get him to low HP faster than other warriors.

I might be wrong though, but reading the class it's the feeling I get. Feel free to prove me wrong (I know I will be proven wrong, and I'll be glass if I am. Maybe I'll roll one next campaign ;P)

That may be true but they also get a lot of maneuvers to choose from/use. They have the most options out of any of the 3 classes.

olelia
2009-07-10, 11:26 PM
Not really. It only works on attacks, so spells don't get it unless they require an attack roll. And the investment required to get this ability is just more than most Full casters should be willing to pay.

Isn't that why they invented gestalt? :smallredface:

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-10, 11:27 PM
Isn't that why they invented gestalt? :smallredface:

No. They invented Gestalt to give 2-player groups a way to not suck. We just abused it.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-07-10, 11:34 PM
My portfolio sense tingled, you guys are talking about Tome of Battle.

I think to decide what you want to play when it comes to the three classes, think about if you'd like to play a fighter, a paladin or a monk and then look at their ToB alternative. The obvious differences aside, crusaders being paladins of any god they so desire, and swordsages being more flexible than monks by leaps and bounds.
My personal favorite is warblade because I like the idea of fighters, but I agree with everyone when they say fighters are piddly little weaklings in the eyes of wizards and clerics. Warblades still don't add up to them darn book-learners but it closes the gap a considerable amount.

Also hey, what's this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4589069&postcount=50)? :smallbiggrin:
Might be useful. Who knows?

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-07-10, 11:49 PM
Swordsages may not be as quite as potent as the other two out of the box, but they are still effective. The Adaptive Style feat vastly improves them, and they even have a sweet cheat code located in the back of their section in the book. Look for the word: Mystic. :smalltongue:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-11, 01:24 AM
The most powerful class in ToB, and arguably in 3.5, is the Arcane Swordsage variant on page 20 under the 'Adaptation' heading. Get the feat Adaptive Style and after just a few levels all of your minute/level duration and longer buffs can be constantly active, without even keeping any of them readied. Constantly have Shield and Dolorous Blow active, use Nerveskitter on every fight, get Wraithstrike and Whirling Blade, and buff everyone with Greater Magic Weapon. Outside of combat your spells are basically at-will, so get things like Alarm and Greater Mage Hand. In the higher levels you can take spells like Greater Dispel Magic (5th level from the Bard list even), Disintegrate, and Ruby Ray of Reversal. Even spells like Invoke Magic (LoM) and Iceberg (Frostburn) are usable an unlimited number of times each day.

Optimator
2009-07-11, 01:29 AM
I'm a Warblade man myself. Full-on ass-kickery with Int synergy? Yes please.

Saph
2009-07-11, 01:43 AM
It's probably not a good idea to dwell on the most broken stuff in ToB, if you want to encourage people to use it. As long as you ban the 1d2 Crusader and Arcane Swordsage, ToB works fine. That said, it does lend itself to a higher power level than many groups use, so the DM has to make sure to send appropriately tough enemies at the party to make up for it.

- Saph

Agrippa
2009-07-11, 01:53 AM
I've come to really like Tome of Battle. The only problem is the fact that the crusader, swordsage and warblade are classes and not class templates. Of course that's the result of using a single experience point track for all classes. Who wouldn't want to play ranger or brawler (fighter variant with monk-like unarmed attack) with the warblade template. Perhaps a paladin, barbarian or cleric crusader. Maybe even a streetfighter (stealth oriented, dirty fighting, street wise fighter variant) or assassin swordsage. With class specific experience charts that could happen.

Ponce
2009-07-11, 02:00 AM
Crusader for life. Never find yourself in the negatives again!

nefele
2009-07-11, 02:01 AM
I'll ask here since I don't feel the need to create an other thread (plus it may help the OP) but I have the feeling the Swordsage is the weaker of the 3.

He only has d8 HD, a 3/4 BAB and can only wear Light Armor, compare to Crusader or Warblade I don't think he's so great... Sense Magic is a nice touch, but utterly useless in battle, his Wis to AC is nice too, he gets Evasion which is ok and Dual Boost is really good. That being said, his damage output seems to be not so great since he has to rely on Dex and Wis a lot, his BAB doesn't help with that and his low AC will get him to low HP faster than other warriors.
True. But Swordsages aren't meant to be tanks. They are meant to be mobile and/or sneaky warriors, with a lot of tricks up their sleeve. And they are my favorite martial adepts.

They get a ton of maneuvers (many of them unique), they make awesome dex-based warriors (with Shadow Blade), they support TWF better than any martial adept thanks to the many boosts they get, they support sneak attack (obviously effective with TWF), they support unarmed combat and tripping builds (the general consensus is that the unarmed swordsage is what the monk should have been)... All in all, they are one most versatile martial classes out there. And their flavor (which is also very versatile - there's a long way from From Desert Wind to Shadow Hand) is wonderful, IMO.

Next in line, is Warblade. Very nice synergy with high intelligence, small but great selection of maneuver (for damage, for battlefield control, and for defenses), nice flavor and a clean break from the "dump fighter" trope.

I put Crusader last, though crusaders are arguably the best tanks in D&D (yeah, OK, I mean non-casters tanks). Huge damage potential from the beginning and amazing battlefield control in mid levels (with the right build, practically nothing can move around you). The main reason I'm not too hot about crusaders is that their recovery method is wonky. I don't mind the chance factor, but I find it a horrible hassle, personally.

If it's the first time you try ToB, I suggest you begin with either a straight martial adept (from the three, choose the one you fancy better - certainly none of them is weak, neither a one-trick pony), or, if you're starting in mid to high levels, dip. A common rogue with a couple of swordsage levels can do wonders. A fighter with a crapload of feats who suddenly has access to warblade maneuvers is great. Etc.

And once you get a feel of the basics in game, you can start multi-classing and playing around. The options are endless. Have fun. :smallsmile:

Knaight
2009-07-11, 02:05 AM
I've come to really like Tome of Battle. The only problem is the fact that the crusader, swordsage and warblade are classes and not class templates. Of course that's the result of using a single experience point track for all classes. Who wouldn't want to play ranger or brawler (fighter variant with monk-like unarmed attack) with the warblade template. Perhaps a paladin, barbarian or cleric crusader. Maybe even a streetfighter (stealth oriented, dirty fighting, street wise fighter variant) or assassin swordsage. With class specific experience charts that could happen.

How does the single experience point track affect anything? A range or brawler is covered using Warbade or Swordsage(setting sun focus), the crusader is basically a paladin and melee cleric replacement, the streetfighter is just a warblade who takes a few levels in rogue, some hiding, a shadow hand stance with a feat, etc.

Class specific experience charts aren't needed.

AslanCross
2009-07-11, 03:33 AM
I prefer the warblade myself. They're in the middle range when it comes to versatility (Crusaders are the least versatile due to their narrow selection of disciplines while Swordsages are the most versatile), best when it comes to maneuver recovery, and they're also the most mundane, relying on pure skill and technique as opposed to divine or magical talents.

Eldariel
2009-07-11, 09:10 AM
It's probably not a good idea to dwell on the most broken stuff in ToB, if you want to encourage people to use it. As long as you ban the 1d2 Crusader and Arcane Swordsage, ToB works fine. That said, it does lend itself to a higher power level than many groups use, so the DM has to make sure to send appropriately tough enemies at the party to make up for it.

- Saph

1d2 Crusader doesn't even work. The Luck-domain just lets you treat 1s as 2s; you didn't actually roll a 2 so you don't get your rerolls meaning you deal a square 2 points of damage per hit. And Arcane Swordsage is just an Adaptation, and a far less successful one at that than Unarmed Swordsage.


But yeah, Swordsages are sorta the weakest of the 3. Not by a lot though; they still have the best low level AC (given Dex- or Wis-focus) due to getting both, Wis & Dex to AC while wearing light armor, and their insane variety of maneuvers + Adaptive Style lets them take 1 full round action to have JUST the right tools for any given situation. Maneuvers exist that give a variety of boosts to their attacks and they have that free Weapon Focus to a ton of weapons on level 1 making their 3/4 BAB less of an issue.

They have the largest variety of schools (although all 3 they're missing, White Raven, Iron Heart & Devoted Spirit, are awesome) and they can realize a dozen character concepts (Setting Sun-, Shadow Hand-, Desert Wind-, Diamond Mind- and Tiger Claw Swordsages all look totally different).

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-11, 09:45 AM
Of the 3, I generally prefer the Warblade.

The reasons being very straightforward:

Iron Heart and Diamond Mind. The two disciplines together are, for my purposes, pretty much perfect for creating an anime-styled samurai character. They also work well for any sort of extraordinary swordsman/woman type character really.

It's flashy... but not nearly as flashy as the other two.

I still prefer Fighter sometimes; but Warblade is a great deal of fun to me >.>m

Saph
2009-07-11, 09:52 AM
But yeah, Swordsages are sorta the weakest of the 3. Not by a lot though; they still have the best low level AC (given Dex- or Wis-focus) due to getting both, Wis & Dex to AC while wearing light armor, and their insane variety of maneuvers + Adaptive Style lets them take 1 full round action to have JUST the right tools for any given situation. Maneuvers exist that give a variety of boosts to their attacks and they have that free Weapon Focus to a ton of weapons on level 1 making their 3/4 BAB less of an issue.

I dunno, I always thought they were potentially the most powerful. The TWF Desert Wind/Shadow Hand swordsage is pretty nasty. I had one as an NPC in my Phantasy Star game (the character was Rika, for the curious) and actually had to take her out of combats after she started to outshine the PCs. Pouncing charge + Assassin's Stance + Searing/Burning Blade + TWF made her quite capable of killing opponents in one turn. And that was a single-class Swordsage using nothing but PHB + ToB, and without any particular effort put into the build.

- Saph

Xefas
2009-07-11, 10:04 AM
Crusader simple? I'd say it has the most complicated maneuver recovery system of the three, because of the whole random-determination.

I know this is a post from yesterday, but I figured if anyone else has this problem, I'd throw in my group's solution. At first, we took a deck of playing cards, took out a few cards of the player's choice, and assigned a maneuver to each one (King of Clubs = Stone Bones, Ace of Hearts = Crusader's Strike, etc). She would then draw them for her granted maneuvers, and when she ran out, she'd just shuffle them altogether again.

Later, I used Magic Set Editor 2 (http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/download) (it's free) to create actual maneuver cards with all the information about the maneuver on them that served the same purpose, printed them out, stuck them in card sleeves, and its worked great since.

I also made cards for her stances and activated feats (like Power Attack and Stand Still) so they were easier to keep track of (she requested this, being new to D&D).

Eldariel
2009-07-11, 10:37 AM
I dunno, I always thought they were potentially the most powerful. The TWF Desert Wind/Shadow Hand swordsage is pretty nasty. I had one as an NPC in my Phantasy Star game (the character was Rika, for the curious) and actually had to take her out of combats after she started to outshine the PCs. Pouncing charge + Assassin's Stance + Searing/Burning Blade + TWF made her quite capable of killing opponents in one turn. And that was a single-class Swordsage using nothing but PHB + ToB, and without any particular effort put into the build.

While this is of course true, it's mostly the Desert Wind dealing damage here and while it indeed has an impressive damage potential, Desert Wind is still considered the weakest of the nine, mostly because fire immunity negates it almost entirely, and various fire resistances vastly cut into its potency.

Certainly, Swordsages are potent, but generally speaking, Warblades and Crusaders simply hit better thanks to the full BAB giving them a larger damage output (especially combining Power Attack with their full BAB, high To Hit and multiplication maneuvers or such - imagine Diamond/Ruby Nightmare Blade or Greater Divine Surge with Power Attack for example). And Swordsages have to spend that turn recovering while Warblades spend a full attack and Crusaders spend no actions. But yeah, they're pretty close, really.

Saph
2009-07-11, 10:44 AM
While this is of course true, it's mostly the Desert Wind dealing damage here and while it indeed has an impressive damage potential, Desert Wind is still considered the weakest of the nine, mostly because fire immunity negates it almost entirely, and various fire resistances vastly cut into its potency.

Well, yeah, but anything without fire resistance will tend to die horribly as soon as the Swordsage gets a full attack in. Anyway, you don't need that many maneuvers from it - Burning/Searing Blade and Zephyr Dodge are plenty good on their own. Since Swordsages get such a huge selection of maneuvers, they can easily afford to spend a couple on Desert Wind.

- Saph

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-07-11, 12:42 PM
This reminds me to ask, what stat is treated as the "casting" one with the Mystic adaptation? I've always used Wis even though the spells themselves come from lists that use Int and Cha.

Also, while the variant can be broken, it doesn't have to be. Spells like Blade of Blood and that Wujen one with the iron scarf are perfectly balanced, and thematically sound for the flavor of the thing.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-11, 02:37 PM
Crusader is the ultimate 'meat shield' class. Soaking up damage like a sponge, then dishing it back out is a core class feature. Mettle is also a good way of saying 'NO'. Couple that with a Ring of Evasion, and some resist buffs, and you've got a good start on Mr. No. He's got some tricks, and can heal himself, but his preferred method is to walk up and beat down. He's also a boon to the party with White Raven, and a Rogue's best friend with Clarion Call to declare an opponent flat-footed.

Warblade is the Turbo Ginsu. Stone Power gives him some damage mitigation, and Shards of Granite let him bypass all DR for consistent damage output. Improved Uncanny Dodge lets him ignore most precision-based damage dealers. He's got a lot of ways to dish out a lot of damage. Tombstone Strike does 2d6 Con damage, which can be crippling. He's a formidable Ubercharger with Pouncing Strike and x-ing Mongoose. As with the Crusader, he also has party utility with White Raven. He's also got the ability to negate any status effect. With access to Diamond Mind, he also has the ability to replace any save with a Concentration check, although the only one he'd need is for Will saves.

Swordsage is very much like a monk, only it actually works. His damage output can easily match, if not exceed, the others, using Shadow Hand, Shadow Blade, and TWFing with the aforementioned Pouncing Strike + xing mongoose. He's also got solid defenses. Setting Sun has a LOT of ways to not be hit. Baffling Defense lets him make a skill check to avoid attack, then combine with Shifting Defense to deny an opponent a full attack. He's got access to the same defensive and offenseive punch that Stone Dragon has, plus tacks on Desert Wind for even more damage. Finally, he's got enough Maneuvers Known to be able to pursue the Diamond Mind tree further than the Warblade can afford to, grabbing things like Time Stands Still for truly horrid damage output.

None of them are 'weak', although they require different play styles. A Swordsage is not just going to walk up and smack something on the nose. A Crusader would be remiss if he didn't. A Warblade wouldn't simply smack it on the nose. It's all about play styles and how you want your character to be effective.

Allow me to repeat myself: The question isn't IF they are effective, but HOW they are effective, each in their own way.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-11, 02:40 PM
This reminds me to ask, what stat is treated as the "casting" one with the Mystic adaptation? I've always used Wis even though the spells themselves come from lists that use Int and Cha.

Also, while the variant can be broken, it doesn't have to be. Spells like Blade of Blood and that Wujen one with the iron scarf are perfectly balanced, and thematically sound for the flavor of the thing.

I'm working on stating out the variant as an actual class, so people can use it without having to make guesswork out the kazoo. The class itself is partially finished, I just need to compile its spells/feats/PrCs.

But no one should use the version presented in the ToB. Its just too absurd.

Agrippa
2009-07-12, 08:07 PM
How does the single experience point track affect anything? A range or brawler is covered using Warbade or Swordsage(setting sun focus), the crusader is basically a paladin and melee cleric replacement, the streetfighter is just a warblade who takes a few levels in rogue, some hiding, a shadow hand stance with a feat, etc.

First, while I'm okay with crusaders (probably calling them zealots in game) I don't want them to out right replace clerics and paladins. I'd gladly allow a swordsage paladin focusing on Desert Wind and Golden Saint. Nor would I want players to have to jump through hoops for particular simple character concepts. Yes, if the character is a warrior turned thief or vice versa, or even a wizard turned fighter this would still be done through multi-classing. But not if the player wants a martial artist, back alley brawler or fist fighter (brawler). I'd probably just give the character Setting Sun and Monkey Paw instead of White Raven and Iron Heart.


Class specific experience charts aren't needed.

For you, for me they make perfect sense. Not all classes are made equal. The level and type of training required to be a knight or royal guard (fighter) should be different from that of a pick pocket, burglar or spy (thief, now called rogue). Because of this the amount of training and expertise needed to sharpen and improve someones skills varries. At the same time members of certain classes might have additional training (class abilities) while still otherwise being normal members of said class. That's what class experience tables at least tried to reflect.

SilveryCord
2009-07-12, 08:14 PM
For you, for me they make perfect sense. Not all classes are made equal. The level and type of training required to be a knight or royal guard (fighter) should be different from that of a pick pocket, burglar or spy (thief, now called rogue). Because of this the amount of training and expertise needed to sharpen and improve someones skills varries. At the same time members of certain classes might have additional training (class abilities) while still otherwise being normal members of said class. That's what class experience tables at least tried to reflect.

Yeah, but you're assuming that one class level = a certain amount of proficiency. You could consider, perhaps they take the same amount of experience, but meter a different progression for each profession. Does a rogue really progress at lockpicking at the same rate a fighter progresses at dealing damage, for the same number of XP?
Different experience rates are more confusing than just shifting around the timing that classes get certain things.

Zaq
2009-07-12, 10:44 PM
For dips, I tend to prefer Swordsage. For straight-classing, I prefer the Warblade. A Rogue (or similar class) with a level or two of Swordsage, though, really gets a TON of versatility and especially defense. I adore the Diamond Mind save-boosting maneuvers. (Warblade gets these too, it should be noted, but Swordsages get enough maneuvers that they can also get something ELSE with a single-level dip.)

It's really hard to go wrong with a ToB character, though.