Tharizdun vs Asmodeus

[DragonBaneDM]

Tharizdun has been unchained.

The world is in ruins, and the gods that opposed him have fallen at the hands of him and the extremely unlikely alliance of the Demon Princes under the Eye of Chaos

The gods are dead. Save one.

Asmodeus and his devils hid away in the safety of the Nine Hells and are now going to try to take over the world to vanquish the Demons and remake it in their will.

Gentlemen, this is the climax of the Blood Wars!

Now, here's what we have to assume for this scenario:

1. Tharizdun is free and at the height of his power.
2. All of the Demon Princes are following him directly due to fear.
3. Asmodeus's power is undiluted by Tharizdun's rise.
4. All of the Archdevils are following Asmodeus loyally. Also due to fear.
5. The battles will take place in the World, where no one side has the advantage, or is on the defensive or offensive.

I wanna look at this from three different perspectives:

1. Demons vs Devils
2. Demon Princes vs Archdevils
3. The final showdown between Asmodeus and Tharizdun, mano a mano.

I personally go with demons here for all three. Although the devils are far more organized, it took almost all the gods to lock Tharizdun away, at least according to 4th edition, which I am the most familiar with. I also just see loosely organized Chaotic Evil as more destructive and effective on the battlefield.

Thoughts? Questions? Blatant flame war starters? COMMENCE!!!

[ZeroNumerous]

I also just see loosely organized Chaotic Evil as more destructive and effective on the battlefield.

Thing is. Demons aren't even loosely organized. As long as there are foes to be fought, demons fight them. Even if those foes are other demons. The devils win by just taking all the mortals they care to gather and going to another plane.

Further, the difference in power between Asmodeus and some Demon is ridiculous. Asmodeus tricked every Lawful god ever into signing the Pact Primeval. When he was defeated, the fall of his true body created the Seventh, Eighth and Ninth layers of Baator. Compared to some crackerjack despot demon, Asmodeus wins hands down.

[ColdSepp]

Thing is. Demons aren't even loosely organized. As long as there are foes to be fought, demons fight them. Even if those foes are other demons. The devils win by just taking all the mortals they care to gather and going to another plane.

Further, the difference in power between Asmodeus and some Demon is ridiculous. Asmodeus tricked every Lawful god ever into signing the Pact Primeval. When he was defeated, the fall of his true body created the Seventh, Eighth and Ninth layers of Baator. Compared to some crackerjack despot demon, Asmodeus wins hands down.

And in 4E, Asmodeus is a god... though the 3.5 version is much more interesting, IMO.

[DragonBaneDM]

But we're forgetting Tharizdun here. Could he take on Asmodeus, a god, one on one and win???

[Sinfire Titan]

Thing is. Demons aren't even loosely organized. As long as there are foes to be fought, demons fight them. Even if those foes are other demons. The devils win by just taking all the mortals they care to gather and going to another plane.

Further, the difference in power between Asmodeus and some Demon is ridiculous. Asmodeus tricked every Lawful god ever into signing the Pact Primeval. When he was defeated, the fall of his true body created the Seventh, Eighth and Ninth layers of Baator. Compared to some crackerjack despot demon, Asmodeus wins hands down.

The Liber Chaotica would be inclined to agree, but that book has an entire section devoted to beings who have united the Chaotic alignment to a singular cause.


It may be Warhammer, but it is also possible (if highly unlikely) to happen in DnD. Expedition to Demonweb Pits is about stopping such unity by sabotaging Lolth's plans (even though you are being manipulated by Graz'zt).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

But we're forgetting Tharizdun here. Could he take on Asmodeus, a god, one on one and win???

I'm going to answer this from the prior edition perspective, because (A) Asmodeus being a primordial being of the universe is much more interesting than him being just another god, particularly when it comes to how he keeps them out of the Hells and such, and (B) becoming a god is almost exactly what Asmodeus wouldn't want to do, because he's much more powerful without it.

That said, here's how it stacks up:
Tharizdun is a powerful god; Asmodeus is a powerful primordial being.
It took all the gods to imprison Tharizun; all the gods haven't been able to do anything to Asmodeus.
Tharizdun is completely focused on obliterating the multiverse, a task requiring only brute force; Asmodeus is completely focused on ruling the multiverse, a task requiring a great deal of cunning and skill.
Tharizdun leads a completely disorganized bunch of demons; Asmodeus leads a highly organized and competent bunch of devils.
I'm going to have to give this one to Asmodeus.

If you really want the 4e perspective, I can't help you, because the lore surrounding Asmodeus was completely thrown out the window and stomped on, and the two versions bear a resemblance in name only.

[Ganurath]

We also have to consider the mortal factor: When choosing between two evils, the one that wants to rule you is much more appealing than the one that wants to destroy eveything you hold dear.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Asmodeus was once an angel/God, iirc.

[chiasaur11]

I figured it'd go something like the following.

Tharizdun stands atop the corpses of the gods, the horrible smile of the mad across the twisted... thing that comes closest to a face amidst the nightmarish form.

But slowly, through the seemingly endless hordes of demons a single figure approaches. Another nightmare, this one much closer to reality as we know it, but somehow worse for the corruption of things once good and noble, comes to the forefront.

"Not one for subtlety, I see. Well, even if it doesn't suit all my goals, it worked well enough. The few survivors will never forget the dangers of unfettered chaos, so that's one avenue away from my domain ruled out, and the death of all its most powerful defenders should ensure that what little remains of the pathetic cowardice hidden behind such seemingly impressive names as 'goodness' and 'justice' won't last much longer. Of course, your final goal simply won't do. Extermination of everything? A tad wasteful. And it seems, oddly, your lieutenants agree on that count, at least as it regards their personal existences. In fact, it seems the overwhelming bulk of your army is against its own extermination. A huge surprise, I'm sure. Now, as you are, to put it quite bluntly, alone, and it seems outmatched, it might be wise for you to surrender yourself. I cannot promise mercy, but I would be able to assure you I personally would find this course of events a good deal less of a strain on my soon-to-be limitless resources."

The incomprehensible burbling of a thousand nightmares, things that make even the foulest of the damned shiver, came together in a cacophonous agony. No sound known to man had any similarity, but somehow the intent came through in a form that was comprehensible in meaning, even if the hearer would much rather it wasn't. Being able to comprehend this atrocity would make the most heroic of saints all but certain of his own damnation.

"Alone I sought the destruction of all in the beginning, and all the gods together could hardly stay my wrath. A pathetic devil, a celestial without the strength to even hold the pathetic convictions that formed it against the mere concept of my existence will fall more quickly still."

"Ah, well. One more minor squabble for power is a small price to pay for my eternal domination of all that is."

The two forms face off, armies of the damned forming an impromptu arena as the fate of all that is, was, or will be, oblivion or a fate somehow worse, would be decided.

And then a blue portal emerged above the flames.

The shining armor of a paladin, but tarnished somehow, surrounded a figure small even by the standards of mortals, let alone those of gods and slayers of gods.

"Right. Who's making this racket? I know, but it'd be nice if you'd admit it."

The two fiends turned, and almost laughed. One of the pathetic servants of the first slain of the day hoped to stand against the killers of his master?

"Whelp and worm. Whether you served Bahamut, Moradin, or Garl Glittergold, your patron is slain, as is any hope of vengeance. Let your betters finish their conflict, then perhaps the victor will give you the sweet embrace of oblivion."

"Well, if you can't be polite about it, I guess I might as well skip ahead to the finish."

A questioning look formed on the face of Asmodeus for a split second, followed shortly by a look of terror and agony seldom seen even on the faces of the damned. Then he vanished. The process repeated exactly with the nearby form of Tharizdun.

"Right. Well, good to be back on the prime for a bit, even under these circumstances. Get along home folks, show's over. I don't know where you can go, but you can't stay here. And before I forget, I might as well say thanks to Pazuzu. Owe it all to you."

And with that, the kobold ex-paladin left, leaving several armies of very sheepish looking devils and demons to plane shift back to their respective infernos.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Asmodeus was once an angel/God, iirc.

In the 4e cosmology, he was an angel of some sort, yes; in Planescape, he was simply a primordial being of pure Law--minorly retconned in the 3e Fiendish Codices to imply he was LG originally--but in either case he was one of the first few powers in the cosmos and was tasked with fighting the demons before he shook things up with the Pact Primeval.

[SadisticFishing]

Geeze people, all we've seen so far of Asmodeous in 4e is one paragraph. Wait until his book before judging his fluff - it's more than 3.5 core had. Slightly.

I'd have to give this to Tharizdun, hands down. He's supposed to be the most powerful being in the cosmology, IIRC. The Gods locked him away, all working together - they never tried to work together to get Asmodeous, because he earned his place.

[Gralamin]

I'm going to answer this from the prior edition perspective, because (A) Asmodeus being a primordial being of the universe is much more interesting than him being just another god, particularly when it comes to how he keeps them out of the Hells and such, and (B) becoming a god is almost exactly what Asmodeus wouldn't want to do, because he's much more powerful without it.

That said, here's how it stacks up:
Tharizdun is a powerful god; Asmodeus is a powerful primordial being.
It took all the gods to imprison Tharizun; all the gods haven't been able to do anything to Asmodeus.
Tharizdun is completely focused on obliterating the multiverse, a task requiring only brute force; Asmodeus is completely focused on ruling the multiverse, a task requiring a great deal of cunning and skill.
Tharizdun leads a completely disorganized bunch of demons; Asmodeus leads a highly organized and competent bunch of devils.
I'm going to have to give this one to Asmodeus.

If you really want the 4e perspective, I can't help you, because the lore surrounding Asmodeus was completely thrown out the window and stomped on, and the two versions bear a resemblance in name only.

I wouldn't say the 4e version is incompatabile with 3e (And pre 3e) fluff, even taking into account the changes. The only beings other then Asmodeous who are a threat to Deities are the primordials. Asmodeous was strong enough to fight and kill the God he serves, and absorb all of his power (though ended up trapped in the God's plane which was warped into the Nine Hells). From there, add back in the Pact Primeval and the Blood War, and your fine.

Though its probably best to take out that "Each drop of blood creates a balor Pit fiend" thing that he had in pre-4e.

But, the answer to this sort of question is almost always: Asmodeous wins.

Why? Asmodeous is probably the most intelligent being in all of D&D. Not only that, he's immortal and has nothing better to do but Scheme everyday. Combine this with all the corrupted individuals left in the world, and combine this with his priests being the only ones that can still use Divine magic. Asmodeous merely needs to create two groups out of the mortals:
Group A is the most powerful individuals in the world. They are to become the strike force that kills Tharizdun, tasked with finding a way past his discorporation, collecting Artifacts, and leading the assault (Asmodeous is Clearly Genre Savvy). While the Demons are distracted by themselves, the Devils, and the Mortals "Last attempt at survival", Group B (Made up of Everyone else) will be brought into refuge By Asmodeous.

From there, Asmodeous does everything he can to help Group A, but ultimately leave them defenseless against himself. If Group A succeeds and does it for him, great, he just needs to corrupt and imprison them (Don't give the mortals a martyr). If they fail, Asmodeous then goes into a contingency plan where even the mortals death helps him, and continues on.

Basically, Thraizdun is fighting millenia of careful preperation and planning, and Asmodeous will only risk himself when absolutely necessary.

[DarthCyberWolf]

{Scrubbed}

[Dixieboy]

And in 4E, Asmodeus is a god... though the 3.5 version is much more interesting, IMO.

The god of MAGIC USERS

Making wizard an inherently evil profession :smallbiggrin:

[Gralamin]

The god of MAGIC USERS

Making wizard an inherently evil profession :smallbiggrin:

The God of Power, Domination, and Tyranny actually.

Regardless, it seems in 4e that becoming a God causes you to not lose any power.

[Dixieboy]

The God of Power, Domination, and Tyranny actually.

Regardless, it seems in 4e that becoming a God causes you to not lose any power.

He became a god by eating Azuth

If you kill a god you take over their portfolio

Azuth was the god of magic users.

You sound like you're describing Bane, who was never described as killed in 4e

[Gralamin]

He became a god by eating Azuth

If you kill a god you take over their portfolio

Azuth was the god of magic users.

The God that Asmodeous defeated has not been named yet (Could you provide a source please?). In addition, Corellon is the god of arcane magic, and Ioun is the god of knowledge. There is no God of Magic users specifically.

Edit: It seems Azuth is a god in Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms is not core.

[Dixieboy]

The God that Asmodeous defeated has not been named yet (Could you provide a source please?). In addition, Corellon is the god of arcane magic, and Ioun is the god of knowledge. There is no God of Magic users specifically.

Edit: It seems Azuth is a god in Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms is not core.
The only book i have seen which described asmodeous as a god in 4e was the forgotten realms setting book.

In which the god was Azuth.

Source = The forgotten realms book, but you could also just check out This page (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Azuth)

[Gralamin]

The only book i have seen which described asmodeous as a god in 4e was the forgotten realms setting book.

In which the god was Azuth.

Players Handbook Page 62
Dungeons Master Guide Page 162

[HamHam]

Asmosdeus has an infinite supply of Pit Fiends.

Assuming they all manifest aspects on the Material, Asmodeus is a whopping CR 27 which easy beats Demagorgon who is only CR 23. And his rod is just ludicrous. Will Save or be helpless every time you try and attack him. Once per day, he goes back up to full hit points and gets all his SLAs back.

Not to mention all his other special abilities.

Finally, one of the important differences between devils and demons is that demons are only resistant to stuff like fire and cold while devils are immune. Which means that when Mephistoheles starts spamming Meteor Swarm, the devils and Arch Devils won't even notice while the demons and Demon Princes while be taking a beating.

[Dixieboy]

Players Handbook Page 62
Dungeons Master Guide Page 162

Dammit, you're right. Missed that :smallfrown:

[Sir Homeslice]

{Scrubbed}

[AslanCross]

*very entertaining post about the Utterance of Pazuzu*

Okay, what exactly does the Utterance of Pazuzu do? It seems to be like Pun-pun all over again.

[Adumbration]

Okay, what exactly does the Utterance of Pazuzu do? It seems to be like Pun-pun all over again.

It is. By being a Lawful Good Kobold Paladin, you can utter Pazuzu 3 times to gain wish, with which you can become Pun-Pun.

[Iliad]

Asmosdeus has an infinite supply of Pit Fiends.

Assuming they all manifest aspects on the Material, Asmodeus is a whopping CR 27 which easy beats Demagorgon who is only CR 23. And his rod is just ludicrous. Will Save or be helpless every time you try and attack him. Once per day, he goes back up to full hit points and gets all his SLAs back.

Not to mention all his other special abilities.

Finally, one of the important differences between devils and demons is that demons are only resistant to stuff like fire and cold while devils are immune. Which means that when Mephistoheles starts spamming Meteor Swarm, the devils and Arch Devils won't even notice while the demons and Demon Princes while be taking a beating.

I think you're forgetting the part of demons outnumbering the devils 20:1. While sure fire immunity compared to fire resistance, helps devils hold Avernus, and all out fight would ultimately result in devil's demise. Btw where do you get your CR's from? 4e? I only know mine from 3.5.

Demons will win.

[Coidzor]

Tharizdun concerned more about ripping hole in fabric of reality to destroy multiverse or crushing Asmodeus?

[Dixieboy]

I think you're forgetting the part of demons outnumbering the devils 20:1. While sure fire immunity compared to fire resistance, helps devils hold Avernus, and all out fight would ultimately result in devil's demise. Btw where do you get your CR's from? 4e? I only know mine from 3.5.

Demons will win.

You're forgetting that a Devil commander = A goddamn tactical genius who has EARNED his position through being... well a good commander

A demon commander = The guy who so happens to have killed everyone with a higher rank than himself, no wait, ranks probably don't exist.
The guy who has killed everyone who can yell louder than him, oh, and also the biggest guy around.

One thing though:
Demons reform after death according to some sources, that seems to be a pretty big thing in their favor.

[AslanCross]

One thing though:
Demons reform after death according to some sources, that seems to be a pretty big thing in their favor.

Fiendish Codex II mentions that devils reform. Actually I'm not sure if FC I says that demons reform.

[Coidzor]

What's the tactical situation anyway? Is Tharizdun aware of the devils and going to attack them or do they have time to y'know, launch a strike. I figure the devils' best best is to launch a strike at the demons in such a way that they get close enough to Tharizdun that they can fight him fairly directly, throwing his forces into, well, chaos.

[Lord Loss]

Demons beat devils hands down.

Demon Princes and Lords Nine are evenly matched. Quantity compensates for quality in this case.

Tharzidun is Defeated by Asmodeus.

Tie.

[Mercenary Pen]

There was also mention of Asmodeus for 4e in manual of the planes (though I do not have a link)- mostly on page 98.

There is also mention in the manual of the planes that Graz'zt might work alongside Asmodeus under certain circumstances- and considering it was stated that it took pressure from Orcus AND Demogorgon to stop his original masterplan within the abyss, that might change the odds marginally.

[Zergrusheddie]

(Speaking from 3.5 and some Pathfinder)

I'll have to go with Asmodeus. Not only does he have an army of devils that won't just start kicking the crap out of each other for no reason, he would also have backing of other beings. If Tharizdun broke lose, every god, farmer, peasant, and king would be working against him. I remember reading about a Cthulhu type cult that worshiped him, but when one of their members actually tried to summon him they killed the stray member; there is a difference between worshiping him and wanting him to succeed. Asmodeus is cunning enough to have the other gods help him fight Tharizdun and a few days after the smoke cleared, he would use the opportunity to usurp all power and declare himself Emperor.

Demons have the uber monsters like Balors but Demons do not regenerate. Devils do regenerate, unless somehow the extremely unorganized Demons have Silver or Good Alligned weapons. Devils have telepathy, so accurate combat orders could be given when the Demons are just looking for something to fight. Of course, an army of dancing Vrocks would be really tough to get through.

Maybe I'm just biased because I really do not like Demons and I adore Devils. Devils are far more interesting than "Hulk Smash!" which is what Demons tend to do. As a DM, throwing out a Devil who is willing to bargain with the players is fantastic. It also is a great moral problem for the Good Guys when a Devil throws down his weapon and states "I fully surrender."
One of the times I DM'd, I threw an erinyes at the party. She managed to Charm half the party before she was dropped to single digits. I had her surrender (there was a reason she didn't teleport out) and break the Charms. It was the basic "I'll tell you what you need to know if you allow me to escape." Watching 5 people squirm around and argue whether killing a Lawful being who just wants to leave was Evil or if it was Good to allow an Evil being to escape was just fantastic; the Paladin damn near exploded. You just can't get that with Demons.

Best of luck
-Eddie

[ChaosDefender24]

Fiendish Codex II mentions that devils reform. Actually I'm not sure if FC I says that demons reform.

According to FC1, it does, and it's implied that it happens pretty quickly, although a "demotion" is usually implemented.

Devils reform, possibly with a demotion, but 99 years after they're killed.

[Dixieboy]

Fiendish Codex II mentions that devils reform. Actually I'm not sure if FC I says that demons reform.

No it doesn't... or well, maybe it does, but i can't seem to find it. :smalltongue:

I'll give you a source for the "Demons reform" thing, give me a couple of hours to work up the will to go look :smalltongue:

[ashmanonar]

There was also mention of Asmodeus for 4e in manual of the planes (though I do not have a link)- mostly on page 98.

There is also mention in the manual of the planes that Graz'zt might work alongside Asmodeus under certain circumstances- and considering it was stated that it took pressure from Orcus AND Demogorgon to stop his original masterplan within the abyss, that might change the odds marginally.

That was my thought.

I can't see the demons working together, under ANY circumstances. Demogorgon and Orcus hate each other, and are constantly in struggle. Graz'zt is more like to a devil than a demon, and is likely to join with Asmodeus for this struggle.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Maybe I'm just biased because I really do not like Demons and I adore Devils. Devils are far more interesting than "Hulk Smash!" which is what Demons tend to do. As a DM, throwing out a Devil who is willing to bargain with the players is fantastic. It also is a great moral problem for the Good Guys when a Devil throws down his weapon and states "I fully surrender."

I'm also more of a devil fan. Which you may have guessed from the sig, the location, and the name being a pun on Milton. :smallwink:

--------------------------------

To those who have argued demons will win because there's more of them/they reform faster/whatever: keep in mind that the Blood War is basically a tie, with only minor variances in areas controlled and such. The devils are managing to hold the demons to a standstill, sometimes gaining or losing a bit of ground, despite the fact that there are more demons and despite the fact that they reform faster and despite the fact that fewer Lords of the Nine take the field than Demon Princes (Bel/Zaphniel for the devils, various demon princes 1-2 at a time for the demons).

[Xefas]

That was my thought.

I can't see the demons working together, under ANY circumstances. Demogorgon and Orcus hate each other, and are constantly in struggle. Graz'zt is more like to a devil than a demon, and is likely to join with Asmodeus for this struggle.

Asmodeus stands on a ridge overlooking the inconceivably massive demonic army (or rather, his avatar's astrally projected simulacrum with multiple contingencies attached to it). The Demon Princes whip their minions along with less fervor than usual, their minds occupied by their hatred of their new 'master'. Indeed, Tharizdun looms over them all, constantly snapping at the heels of his servants to keep them in line.

Asmodeus clears his throat. The entire demon army looks up at him.

Sliding a hand into his robe, he pulls forth a single gold coin, waving it in the air. "I was going to surrender a portion of my vast wealth to you all in an attempt to curry your favor and usurp your master. But..." He slings the gold coin at Tharizdun, who catches it, reflexively. "...it looks like he just stole it from you guys. Too bad. You should probably let him keep it. He's much stronger than each one of you individually. Its not like there's a nigh-infinite number of you or anything. Keep being afraid of him. Best thing for everyone."

Sensing what was moments from transpiring, Graz'zt does a flying slow-motion leap away from the demonic horde as it implodes in a massive swirling cesspool of destruction. A cry of "If'n everything's destroyed, aint nothin' to sex up!" is heard faintly echoing from the vicinity of the explosion.

Asmodeus turns to Mephistopheles and they high five. He then turns the other way and belly-bumps Dispater.

Asmodeus coughs up the 56,000gp to get Graz'zt's alignment subtype changed from [Chaotic] to [Lawful]. Asmodeus stabs Mammon in the face for being such a prick all these eons. Asmodeus appoints Graz'zt as Archduke of Minauros.

Everyone is happy.

[HamHam]

I think you're forgetting the part of demons outnumbering the devils 20:1. While sure fire immunity compared to fire resistance, helps devils hold Avernus, and all out fight would ultimately result in devil's demise. Btw where do you get your CR's from? 4e? I only know mine from 3.5.

Demons will win.

FC I and II.

Also, infinite supply of Pit Fiends with max hit points. Demons only outnumber devils in the Blood War because none of Asmodeus's personal army ever leave Nessus.


Demon Princes and Lords Nine are evenly matched. Quantity compensates for quality in this case.

Not at all. The random lesser important Demon Princes can go fight the random unique devils and named Pit Fiends. Meanwhile, the big Demon Princes like Demogorgon, Graz'zt, and Dagon have wholly inferior stats compared to the Lords of the Nine, and will thus get slaughtered.

[Dixieboy]

FC I and II.

Also, infinite supply of Pit Fiends with max hit points. Demons only outnumber devils in the Blood War because none of Asmodeus's personal army ever leave Nessus.
Ehmm no

Demons are literately infinite in numbers, according to both FC 1 and 2

This one i has page numbers on :smallbiggrin:

While Devil by their very nature are finite

[ColdSepp]

Asmodeus is like Batman, Dr. Doom, and Darksied in one being. Tharizdun might be stronger then him, but as others have said, they would never actually fight.

Asmodeus would let all the other gods (which fear Tharizdun) to do the fighting, then pick up the pieces. Heck, he would likely release Tharizdun because he has such a plan in place.

[HamHam]

Ehmm no

Demons are literately infinite in numbers, according to both FC 1 and 2

This one i has page numbers on :smallbiggrin:

While Devil by their very nature are finite

There is also an infinite number of devils.

EDIT:

Actually this is a somewhat interesting question, and like most things in Planescape ultimately leads into paradox.

According to FC I, it is suggested that new demons are made from the souls of those condemned to the Abyss, and visa versa for devils and the Nine Hells. Which would limit the numbers of both to the rate of souls entering each plane.

On the other hand, every time Asmodeus bleeds it creates a greater devil.

Finally, while the layers of the Nine Hells look finite, there seems to be no explicit statement that they are.

[ken-do-nim]

I wish I could take this question on from the first edition perspective, but ol' Tharizdun doesn't have stats; at the end of WG4 the party comes across a big floating ball of mist which they presume is an imprisoned Tharizdun.

[Cybren]

{Scrubbed}

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This is one of the more reasonable vs. threads and meets most of our guidelines for such threads, so I'll leave it open. But please be civil. Things are already getting needlessly hostile in here, which leads to infractions and such. The characters in question are evil, but there's no reason we can't be nice.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Demons 'can' form armies and alliances you know, they just aren't good at maintaining them. More importantly, there is no way in all the Nine Hells that Orcus, Graz'zt, and Demogorgon would ever submit to Thrazidun on any ACTUAL loyalty basis. Hell, how is Thrazidun even getting the insane obyrinths to follow his command? Especially Ob-xob.

No, I don't think Tharizdun would win at all but I don't think the demons would lose either. Demogorgon is both ambitious enough and powerful enough (Check out his Dragon stats instead of his piddling avatar in FC II which I disregard completely except when making the REAL stats for demon lords/demon princes) to turn on Tharizdun the moment Tharizdun falters and he can bully Orcus and Graz'zt into helping him since he's still the strongest of the three and all of them would be chafing under someone's elses banner.

No..I see Tharizdun being completely and utterly taken apart both by the machinations of Asmodeus and the Lords of the Nine and from a well timed uprising from it's demonic 'slaves' until Demogorgon and Asmodeus met at the end of the battle and agree to return to the status quo (or maybe do their Joint Assault on the Heavens deal). Demogorgon likely taking the shattered essences of Tharizdun to imprison in the inescapable Wells of Darkness just to make sure the next time Tharizdun is released, it'll only be to be devoured and destroyed by the Prince of Demons.

[Tiki Snakes]

If Tharizdun ever even sees Asmodeus in person, it means he's already lost. That's just how it works.

In 4th ed cosmology/planar history, Tharizdun is responsible for creating the abyss, and essentially creating Demogorgon, Orcus and Baphomet, (as they were previously 'Primordials' who were corrupted when Tharizdun did his thing with that evil crystal...thing.)

Thing is, even back then, at the height of his power? He could not bend those three to his will, so he left the abyss and marshialled elemental forces instead. Essentially, he made the Abyss to serve as a weapon, but could not weild it.

If we assume, that as the scenario stated tells us, that he has somehow forced the Princes of hell, including Grazz't and Dagon and all the other fun-guys who hang out in there, to bend to his will, then, well. That's going to be the most phenominally dangerous situation imaginable. The sheer outrage that the Demon Princes would be feeling.
All Asmodeus would have to do is apply a tiny dab of pressure in the right place, at the right time, and the whole thing would tear itself utterly appart. Chances are, he wouldn't even have to send a single military unit against Tharizdun. He simply does not have the capability to hold such powerful entities in his sway.

Ignoring this, for a moment, there's also the issue of power-vacuum. If somehow Tharizdun has held his stuff together long enough to take out all other Gods, then there is basically no-one left providing any meaningful opposition to Asmodeus's many, many plans. Essentially, everything he's been working for, every long-reaching xanatos gambit he's had stewing away goes off at once, and being the mastermind that he is, he basically expands to fill the power vacuum. Every relic of unspeakable power, every trinket of the Gods, every place of fell power, of shred of unknowable lore, would essentially fall into his hands at once.
Christmas comes, in Nessus. Really, in such a situation, the Demons, infinite or otherwise, better hope their new Lord and Master finds some use for them, some reason to allow them to continue to exist. ;)

[hamishspence]

3.0 versions of Tharizdun (dragon magazine 294) and Asmodeus (BoVD) are pretty far apart in power- one's an intermediate deity, the other an archfiend.

The BoVD version, could be regarded as a powerfukl avatar (like the FC2 version but a bit better)- but unless you are using a souped up homebrew version- the Dragon Magazine version is Tharizdun is probably better.

As a 20th level wizard 20th level Cleric with 20 Outsider Hit Dice (Divine Rank 11), its not exactly going to be a pushover.

[Tiki Snakes]

3.0 versions of Tharizdun (dragon magazine 294) and Asmodeus (BoVD) are pretty far apart in power- one's an intermediate deity, the other an archfiend.

The BoVD version, could be regarded as a powerfukl avatar (like the FC2 version but a bit better)- but unless you are using a souped up homebrew version- the Dragon Magazine version is Tharizdun is probably better.

As a 20th level wizard 20th level Cleric with 20 Outsider Hit Dice (Divine Rank 11), its not exactly going to be a pushover.

In the Forgotten Realms, which still mentions the whole lesser, intermediate deity etc stuff, 4th ed Asmodeus is a Greater Deity now. :)

[AslanCross]

Asmodeus stands on a ridge overlooking the inconceivably massive demonic army (or rather, his avatar's astrally projected simulacrum with multiple contingencies attached to it). The Demon Princes whip their minions along with less fervor than usual, their minds occupied by their hatred of their new 'master'. Indeed, Tharizdun looms over them all, constantly snapping at the heels of his servants to keep them in line.

Asmodeus clears his throat. The entire demon army looks up at him.

Sliding a hand into his robe, he pulls forth a single gold coin, waving it in the air. "I was going to surrender a portion of my vast wealth to you all in an attempt to curry your favor and usurp your master. But..." He slings the gold coin at Tharizdun, who catches it, reflexively. "...it looks like he just stole it from you guys. Too bad. You should probably let him keep it. He's much stronger than each one of you individually. Its not like there's a nigh-infinite number of you or anything. Keep being afraid of him. Best thing for everyone."

Sensing what was moments from transpiring, Graz'zt does a flying slow-motion leap away from the demonic horde as it implodes in a massive swirling cesspool of destruction. A cry of "If'n everything's destroyed, aint nothin' to sex up!" is heard faintly echoing from the vicinity of the explosion.

Asmodeus turns to Mephistopheles and they high five. He then turns the other way and belly-bumps Dispater.

Asmodeus coughs up the 56,000gp to get Graz'zt's alignment subtype changed from [Chaotic] to [Lawful]. Asmodeus stabs Mammon in the face for being such a prick all these eons. Asmodeus appoints Graz'zt as Archduke of Minauros.

Everyone is happy.

This is the best post in this thread. It'd be hilarious to see Graz'zt become an archdevil all of a sudden.


There is also an infinite number of devils.

Finally, while the layers of the Nine Hells look finite, there seems to be no explicit statement that they are.

If I'm not mistaken, the landmasses are finite. There is a kind of void that the landmasses themselves float in, and I am sure there is a reference in either FC2 or Manual of the Planes that states trying to LEAVE the landmasses physically results in one's body physically imploding and exploding at the same time, physics be damned.

[sofawall]

5. The battles will take place in the World, where no one side has the advantage, or is on the defensive or offensive.

So, Diablo, only replace Angels with Devils.

Sounds fun. Are you running an epic or near-epic campaign in this setting? It'd be one I'd like to play, TBH.

[DragonBaneDM]

Nah, not really. One of my players wanted to unleash Tharizdun awhile ago, but gave up. The other thinks Asmodeus is the best thing since fried chicken. I just think it'd be a badass fight.

In 4e, I just don't see one god, Elder, Young, Old, New, or otherwise, as a match for Tharizdun, who is an Elder god and is at least as old as Asmodeus. If it took an entire pantheon to lock him up, I can never see one god stopping him, regardless of how well thought out his plans are.

Oh, and the Demon Princes look like they kick the crap outta the Archdevils from what I've seen. Dis vs. Demogorgon wouldn't even be a contest. But that's also in 4e.

And I know it's a REALLY unlikely scenario. One that would never happen in a million years.

Good thing this game is imaginary, huh? Hahaha!

[Tiki Snakes]

Thing is, Demons in general, and I'm including Tharizdun, don't really plan very well. They are power, raw, and chaotic. Tharizdun in particular is actually insane.

Asmodeus is a Genre Savvy, master-of-planning with a thousand Xanatos roulettes on the go. He plans in such a way that he never, ever loses. Even when he loses!

Tharizdun is an old god. an Elder God even, but he was NEVER capable of making the Demon Princes do as he wanted. Even if he somehow managed to gain control of them for a time, it would never last, and the 'War' would not remain Tharizdun + Demons VS Asmodeus + Devils, because the Demon Princes would quite happily pitch in with basically anyone else to overthrow anyone with the temerity to try and 'Rule' them.

There is nothing, remember, to suggest that Tharizdun would have gained in power. It's not like he has large numbers of cultists across the world, or any kind of allies (Pre-whatever trick he pulls to get the Demon Princes working for him). If anything, he'd have suffered from entropy whilst imprisoned.

And yes, the Archdevils serving under Asmodeus would not be a match, one on one, for a Demon Prince. But the Archdevils would no more put themselves in that position than Asmodeus, without already having arranged things such that they were certain of victory.



Or, to put it simply; Tharizdun can be as powerful as he likes. But he loses because his 'Army' is too much of a liability, and with the Devil's being the experts at this kind of thing, would quickly turn it against him.

[sofawall]

The only mention of Dispater I can recall (having never read EITHER FC or Manual of the Planes) is the DiceFreaks one that CharOp was trying to kill for a while. I think ONE person killed him off with an ECL 100, 20(?) Divine Rank character.

[HamHam]

And yes, the Archdevils serving under Asmodeus would not be a match, one on one, for a Demon Prince.

Fiendish Codexes disagree.

[Tiki Snakes]

Fiendish Codexes disagree.

I'm just going by the simple fact that in 4th edition, the big bads kind of peak at about the same general power-level, so if Asmodeus is approximately a match for orcus, in a thunderdome scenario, then Asmodeus's generals won't likely be MORE powerfull. I can't recall off hand if any of the arch-devils are statted yet, though.

The point I stand by is that it doesn't matter, even then, because as a force, and a general, and everything other than a gladiatorial fighter, the Archdevils still clean up.

[edit] Yes, having checked; Dispater, level 28 controller - Leader. Orcus, Level 33 Brute - Leader.

[Xefas]

Someone needs to mention something within Krimm Blackleaf's portfolio so he'll sense it and manifest here to give his opinion.

...

My Warblade wants to take a prestige class that advances his martial progression, but he can't find anything involving the Lower Planes. Oh, whatever will I do?

[HamHam]

I'm just going by the simple fact that in 4th edition, the big bads kind of peak at about the same general power-level, so if Asmodeus is approximately a match for orcus, in a thunderdome scenario, then Asmodeus's generals won't likely be MORE powerfull. I can't recall off hand if any of the arch-devils are statted yet, though.

The point I stand by is that it doesn't matter, even then, because as a force, and a general, and everything other than a gladiatorial fighter, the Archdevils still clean up.

[edit] Yes, having checked; Dispater, level 28 controller - Leader. Orcus, Level 33 Brute - Leader.

FC I:

Baphomet CR 20
Dagon CR 22
Demogorgon CR 23
Fraz-Urb'luu CR 21
Graz'zt CR 22
Juiblex CR 19
Kostchthie CR 21
Malcanthet CR 21
Obox-Ob CR 22
Orcus CR 22
Pale Night CR 21
Pazuzu CR 22
Yeenoghu CR 20
Zuggtmoy CR 21

FC II

Bel, Lord of the First CR 20
Dispater, Lord of the Second CR 21
Mammon, Lord of the Third CR 21
Belial, Lord of the Fourth CR 21
Fierna, Lord of the Fourth CR 19
Levistus, Lord of the Fifth CR 21
Glasya, Lord of the Sixth CR 22
Baalzebul, Lord of the Seventh CR 23
Mephistopheles, Lord of the Eighth CR 24
Asmodeus, Lord of the Ninth CR 27

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Someone needs to mention something within Krimm Blackleaf's portfolio so he'll sense it and manifest here to give his opinion.

...

My Warblade wants to take a prestige class that advances his martial progression, but he can't find anything involving the Lower Planes. Oh, whatever will I do?

What am I needed for? Evil, martial prestige classes? Because I could use a cleric or two, Xefas.

In my personal, and probably slightly biased opinion, the demons would dominate. The blood was is the only thing keeping them from welling up and destroying EVERYthing. If the demons were to focus their efforts on diabolical forces, their insane savagery and infinite numbers would lead them to a victory that could come anywhere between instantly and several thousand years.
The only reason they have not won yet is because they are utterly unfocused and just flailing wildly at something that's focusing themselves on them. If the demons get even an ounce of focus and concentration, Hell is doomed.

[TSED]

But if they gain focus they'll be less chaotic and therefor less daemonic and therefore less inherently dangerous.


Which then screws them over because devils are much better at that game.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm just going by the simple fact that in 4th edition, the big bads kind of peak at about the same general power-level, so if Asmodeus is approximately a match for orcus, in a thunderdome scenario, then Asmodeus's generals won't likely be MORE powerfull. I can't recall off hand if any of the arch-devils are statted yet, though.

If you chose any two given archfiends at random in prior editions, the chances of them being about evenly matched were almost negligible. Having even power levels is only the case in 4e because the designers decided that every monster should have a chance of being killed, even if they're ridiculously powerful and would have been killed long before now if they had even the slightest weakness to mortals, because the PCs are special.

I agree with your conclusions that the archdevils have this one in the bag, of course, but basing it on as-yet-unstatted archfiends and contradictory/retconned cosmology isn't quite the reasoning I'd choose.

[Xenogears]

Asmodeus and Orcus (or really any two given archfiends) were never around the same power level in prior editions, and that's only the case in 4e because the designers decided that every monster should have a chance of being killed, even if they're ridiculously powerful and would have been killed long before now if they had even the slightest weakness to mortals, because the PCs are special.

I agree with your conclusions that the archdevils have this one in the bag, of course, but basing it on as-yet-unstatted archfiends and contradictory/retconned cosmology isn't quite the reasoning I'd choose.

Everything should be possible to be killed though. That is why I liked that in 3rd Edition I could have lvl 10000 characters fighting an suped up Asmodeus. In 4th (to my knowledge) the game caps at 30. So maybe they should release an Epic handbook, say you can go to any level, then stat out all demon princes/archdevils/gods/whatever else as high epic levels that are nigh unstoppable.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Everything should be possible to be killed though. That is why I liked that in 3rd Edition I could have lvl 10000 characters fighting an suped up Asmodeus. In 4th (to my knowledge) the game caps at 30. So maybe they should release an Epic handbook, say you can go to any level, then stat out all demon princes/archdevils/gods/whatever else as high epic levels that are nigh unstoppable.

Let me rephrase that: they believe every monster should be killable at 30th level. Yes, you can have level 10000 PCs kill Asmodeus, but that only makes sense with no level cap, where someone somewhere is guaranteed to be higher level than your target. Arbitrarily declaring "The game only goes up to level 30, so every creature in the multiverse should be killable by a 30th level person" just doesn't work, since the fact that there are monsters above level 30 while PCs only go to 30 means that there should be monsters high enough that they're out of reach for PCs--and those creatures should be the primordial evils of the multiverse like Asmodeus and friends allies other evil creatures.

[Xenogears]

Let me rephrase that: they believe every monster should be killable at 30th level. Yes, you can have level 10000 PCs kill Asmodeus, but that only makes sense with no level cap, where someone somewhere is guaranteed to be higher level than your target. Arbitrarily declaring "The game only goes up to level 30, so every creature in the multiverse should be killable by a 30th level person" just doesn't work, since the fact that there are monsters above level 30 while PCs only go to 30 means that there should be monsters high enough that they're out of reach for PCs--and those creatures should be the primordial evils of the multiverse like Asmodeus and friends allies other evil creatures.

I fully and completely agree with this. This is in fact the #1....okay #2 reason (first is money) why I do not plan to switch to 4th edition.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

But if they gain focus they'll be less chaotic and therefor less daemonic and therefore less inherently dangerous.


Which then screws them over because devils are much better at that game.

But with chaos comes unlimited potential for everything. If chaos has the sudden urge to focus itself for an undetermined amount of time, it probably will follow through with it then go wherever that infinite chaos takes them.
I think about the philosophy of chaos a lot.

[Copacetic]

But with chaos comes unlimited potential for everything. If chaos has the sudden urge to focus itself for an undetermined amount of time, it probably will follow through with it then go wherever that infinite chaos takes them.
I think about the philosophy of chaos a lot.


Chaos is being unpredictable. The fault in that is that you will always be unpredictable, and therefore predictable in the sense that you will do something unexpected. For one to be truly chaotic, one must also be lawful, simply because no one will see it coming.

[AslanCross]

Chaos is being unpredictable. The fault in that is that you will always be unpredictable, and therefore predictable in the sense that you will do something unexpected. For one to be truly chaotic, one must also be lawful, simply because no one will see it coming.

In other words, Graz'zt wins?

[tbarrie]

[rant]If you chose any two given archfiends at random in prior editions, the chances of them being about evenly matched were almost negligible. Having even power levels is only the case in 4e because

If the numbers Hamham posted were accurate, the archfiends were more evenly matched in third edition than in fourth.

(For reference, here are all the archfiends whose fourth edition stats I've seen, with their fourth edition levels compared to the numbers taken from Hamham's post:

Orcus Level 33 Solo CR 22
Baphomet Level 28 Solo CR 20
Demogorgon Level 34 Solo CR 23
Dagon Level 32 Solo CR 22
Yeenoghu Level 28 Solo CR 20
Dispater Level 28 Solo CR 21

A three-CR spread has become a 6-level spread. Dispater is now on par with Baphomet and Yeenoghu instead of being a notch above, so I suppose you could argue that there's one example of power levels being evened out - but it would be a bit of a stretch, as Dispater's power reduction also results in his being even further behind the most powerful archfiends than he already was.)

[Dixieboy]

There is also an infinite number of devils.

EDIT:

Actually this is a somewhat interesting question, and like most things in Planescape ultimately leads into paradox.

According to FC I, it is suggested that new demons are made from the souls of those condemned to the Abyss, and visa versa for devils and the Nine Hells. Which would limit the numbers of both to the rate of souls entering each plane.

On the other hand, every time Asmodeus bleeds it creates a greater devil.

Finally, while the layers of the Nine Hells look finite, there seems to be no explicit statement that they are.Ah, but while Devils have been stated to be formed from the souls of mortals/fallen angels
They have never been described as infinite.

Demons have, in several sources (Including FC 2) been described as just popping up from the guond and/or being infinite in numbers.

[Drakyn]

I think a little too much focus is being put on the amazingness of the devils (the uberplanners) vs the amazingness of the demons (the ubernutsos). You can look at the devils as awesome because they're tying up the blood war against an infinite enemy using pure deviousness and diligence....or you can look at the demons as awesome because they're tying up the blood war against an vast and organized force of absolute, grimly determined master manipulators using no coordination, no concentrated effort, planning, or strategy, half the time attacking each other, and without actually wasting any resources because they're technically infinite. Probably the most accurate way to see it is both at once, because from what I understand the amazing thing about the scuffling the two groups keep going has always been that it's such an absolute stalemate. It seems like what I've heard of Warhammer 40K: everyone is some sort of pinnacle of perfect asskicking and the only thing determining who's the better is whose book you're reading at the moment.

[Tiki Snakes]

(nb- This post kind of got away from me and developed a life of it's own. Oh well.)


Everything should be possible to be killed though. That is why I liked that in 3rd Edition I could have lvl 10000 characters fighting an suped up Asmodeus. In 4th (to my knowledge) the game caps at 30. So maybe they should release an Epic handbook, say you can go to any level, then stat out all demon princes/archdevils/gods/whatever else as high epic levels that are nigh unstoppable.

I don't think you quite follow how it's supposed to work. Sure, in 3rd edition, you could have a level 1000 character. Of course, he'd be so much more powerful than any existing depiction of any entity in the game as to render the entire level system meaningless.

And that's the point. The level system, and the tier system, is finite, because REALITY ITSELF has a kind of curve. If it can even be represented by numbers and roles and comprehended in any meaningful way, then, really it's NOT going to top level 40. Not a chance. In practice, you'll see the most phenominally powerful creatures and entities capping out at about level 35, half-way up the next 'implied' tier of levels. Why? Because this keeps them within reach of the player-characters, who are on the cusp of godhood (or etc), and keeps the players from simply grinding their way to a higher level. Having a 'cap' at level 30 means that the most phenominally powerful foes in the cosmos can never be out-leveled, and never need to be powered up another 10 or 20 levels just to maintain their intended place in the scheme of things.

(When you allow your players to become level 1000, you are required to re-write Asmodeus to be level 1100, or whatever, merely to keep him as anything other than a fly-speck. In which case, really, there's no difference to having just capped things at level 30 and left your Uber-Villain as a nicely balanced level 35. You can tell the same stories, and take the same adventures.

Eh, I'm rambling again.

Basically, they do not need to write an epic level campaign book, to detail the planar-hopping, demon-prince-usurping, god-slaying mover-of-worlds tier of play, because it's built in from the start.

Pair-o-dice; I'm not sure I entirely follow your train of thought, I'm afraid. Why should there always be something more powerful? Do you believe Asmodeus should not be threatened by a team of about 5 'young gods'? (entirely possible party composition, 5 Demigods. At level 30, it's implied that essentially you are going to take up full, if minor, godhood as soon as the campaign ends, so a lvl 30 team is essentially an adventuring party of Gods and beings of Godlike power.) Of course, even a level 30 party would only be able to threaten him if they got him in such a situation as to be able to actually fight him.

Thinking about the way you word it, it's the implications of the Cap that, perhaps, seem to bother you? Well, the concept is that the game should come to a climax at about level 30, the end of the Epic Tier, where the players can challenge the heavens and hells themselves. Sure, the fact that gameplay caps at that level does imply the potential for creatures existing that the pc's could never challenge, but that assumes the creation of arbitrarily powerful entities. Level has more relevance now. Level 33 is 'Powerfull as a God', level 35 is along the lines of 'powerful as any god!'

Sure, you could homebrew a level 55 creature, and your pc's couldn't stop it. Neither could any God, or Primordial, or Demon Prince. Nor most armies of the above. It would basically exist outside all meaningful scale of power. 11 out of 10. Purple out of 5.

1-10, mundane.
11-20, Legends
21-30, inter-planar demigods, realm spanning forces
31-(40?) Gods, Reality Devourers, Aspects of the Universe, Eternals, Pun-Pun.

(Oh, by the way, at least some of the Archdevils HAVE been statted, dispater being the one I checked, at level 28. Of course, I had it backwards, Dispater and Orcus are statted, but Asmodeus is, as yet, and as far as I know, not. Still, Tiamat weighs in at a hefty level 35, to give some kind of idea of the level to expect.

[Xenogears]

(nb- This post kind of got away from me and developed a life of it's own. Oh well.)
I don't think you quite follow how it's supposed to work. Sure, in 3rd edition, you could have a level 1000 character. Of course, he'd be so much more powerful than any existing depiction of any entity in the game as to render the entire level system meaningless.


I think my main problem with it is just that to me the idea that lvl 30=almost godhood is just..... wierd? It seems like thats too easy to get to and that there should be a plethora of new gods all the time...

Take 3.5 Unless you're in a planar metropolis its impossible to randomly stat up a town with anyone higher than 20th lvl (except commoners and experts for some reason...). So that means that on every material plane there are no random epic lvl NPC's (once again except commoners and experts...). And yet the gods are still atleast lvl 40 with all kinds of uberrific divine powers. They aren't just "better" than even the greatest heroes that exist. They are so much better than them that much better than them that even an endless army of every NPC from every material Plane put together couldn't even kill ONE of the Greater Dieties and probably not most of the others either.

I don't know. I'ts probably just my perspective. I just think when you cap everything at thirty, or 20, or a thousand, or anything else it just limits the game and makes it too much like a video game. Get to lvl 100 (30 in this case) and kill the final boss. THE END! I liked that in 3.5 if I wanted to I could keep adventuring forver. Getting so powerful that even the gods quake at my presence and the only forces that can oppose me are unspeakable monsters that drift across the Far Plane just for the chance to fight me. I like that I can do that. I can't do that in 4th. That is a bad thing to me.

[Tiki Snakes]

I think my main problem with it is just that to me the idea that lvl 30=almost godhood is just..... wierd? It seems like thats too easy to get to and that there should be a plethora of new gods all the time...

Take 3.5 Unless you're in a planar metropolis its impossible to randomly stat up a town with anyone higher than 20th lvl (except commoners and experts for some reason...). So that means that on every material plane there are no random epic lvl NPC's (once again except commoners and experts...). And yet the gods are still atleast lvl 40 with all kinds of uberrific divine powers. They aren't just "better" than even the greatest heroes that exist. They are so much better than them that much better than them that even an endless army of every NPC from every material Plane put together couldn't even kill ONE of the Greater Dieties and probably not most of the others either.

I don't know. I'ts probably just my perspective. I just think when you cap everything at thirty, or 20, or a thousand, or anything else it just limits the game and makes it too much like a video game. Get to lvl 100 (30 in this case) and kill the final boss. THE END! I liked that in 3.5 if I wanted to I could keep adventuring forver. Getting so powerful that even the gods quake at my presence and the only forces that can oppose me are unspeakable monsters that drift across the Far Plane just for the chance to fight me. I like that I can do that. I can't do that in 4th. That is a bad thing to me.

I see where you are coming from.
4th edition lacks any comparable random-population tables, mainly because levels don't really work the same way as they used to. Simply put, however, given that there's only really one (two if you count the forgotten realms own version) Epic Destiny that results in actual godhood, even if we assume that someone hits level 30 every few years, that wouldn't result in a billion Gods and Godessess. Still, I'd say that chances are, you'll see one, maybe two people 'Ding' 30, so to speak, and acheive that kind of level of power, every several generations, even in a relatively high power setting? NPC's do not gain XP, after all, so there's no automatic requirement for a Warlord who slays a hundred thousand foes to ever pass level 15. If you stretch to the top end of the paragon tier, you are essentially the stuff of Legends. You are up there with Ghengis Khan, Julius Ceasar and so on. If you even START the Epic tier, you're in the realm of myth and legend. Hercules is your contemporary, King Arthur lives down the street, and Gilgamesh car-pools with you on his way to work.

Simply put, no, I don't think hitting even level 21 should be considered 'Easy' or common. If someone does hit level 21, then the cosmic powers will suddenly take a LOT of notice. The problem with being a fledgling npc Demigod, is that there are a lot of people out there who don't want you getting any further, so I'm guessing what few NPC's head that route in life, would live very exciting, possibly very breif lives.

The kind of people who take that attention and don't die horrible, tragic brutal deaths, are protagonist matirial, basically, and such places in history are best left for PC's to represent. :)


ANYWAY as to 'Adventuring Forever', there are two ways of handling this, as I see it. If you just don't want to retire the character, and the DM is of a similar mood, you could just run further top level stuff.
If it's important to you to eventually be in a position to consider a fight with one or more 'Greater' Deities as a trivial matter, well. It's a simple matter to hack in some kind of home-brew 30+ stuff, reeaally. Just keep gaining HP, defences and so on, at the simplest, feats when relevant. Allow retraining as normal, maybe allowing you to switch some of the remaining lower level powers you have for higher level ones, or so on.

Really, though, it shouldn't need to be too involved. You'd only really need to stretch it another two or three levels to be a full-fledged god. If you make it up to 35, you're as powerful as any entity that exists in the 4th ed cosmology, pretty much. If you're talking beyond that, what could meaningfully offer any kind of challenge? Sure, a plane-devouring, 7-dimensional worm could drift through the cracks between space and time, but would it really need to be that much more powerfull than the Gods to be meaningfull? And once you hit the theoretical ultra-high levels, what could possibly make up the encounters that constitute the campaign? five Tiamat's, a dozen ancient red dragons (who by then would basically count as minions) with Vecna along to provide the control / artilliary and a pair of demogorgon's lurking in the trans-dimensional folds in space and time*?

If you are basically re-pitching the 'enviroment' at the point of 'Gods are the new mortals, Things from beyond time and space are the new gods!' I don't really know if any edition of DnD could help that keep any sense of verisimilitude.

But then, I've never really been down with the concept of ultra-high-level epic play, it just baffles me somehow. I understand that some people do see an attraction. For me, it just kind of breaks free of too much of the tropes and parallels.

[chiasaur11]

In other words, Graz'zt wins?

Until he tries to prove black is white, and he gets run over at a zebra crossing.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If the numbers Hamham posted were accurate, the archfiends were more evenly matched in third edition than in fourth.

Only if you go by CR, which doesn't always work. Take Orcus and Glasya, for instance: Both CR 22 creatures, but not the same power level.
Orcus has an attack routine of Wand +44/+39/+34/+29 (2d6+18/19-20+2d6 unholy+2d6 chaotic plus death), and claw +35 (1d6+6), and gore +35 (1d8+6), and sting +35 (1d6+6 plus poison). Glasya has an attack routine of +3 keen scourge of speed +42/+42/+37+32/+27 (2d6+11/19-20), and bite +34 (2d6+4 plus poison). Advantage: Orcus.
Orcus has AC 48/touch 20/flat-footed 42. Glasya has AC 46/touch 27/flat-footed 34. Advantage: Orcus (though Glasya is marginally better vs. casters).
Orcus is immune to ability drain, crits, [death], electricity, energy drain, [mind-affecting], negative energy, paralysis, poison, and sneak attacks; has resistance 10 vs. acid, cold, and fire; has SR 35. Glasya is immune to fire and poison; has resistance 10 vs. acid and cold; has SR 35. Advantage: Orcus.
Orcus HP: 455. Glasya HP: 350. Advantage: Orcus.

This continues with minor variations; I don't want to write any more out.As you can probably see, if Orcus is better than Glasya in most areas (except a few points on saves and an aura), they shouldn't have the same CR--or, if they do, it obviously means that having the same CR doesn't mean having the same power level.


Pair-o-dice; I'm not sure I entirely follow your train of thought, I'm afraid. Why should there always be something more powerful?

I mean that if there is no level cap, than it is possible to have something more powerful--I'm thinking of the 2e DMG advice saying "If your PCs are murdering NPCs with abandon or doing something else stupid, there are always more powerful things out there."


Do you believe Asmodeus should not be threatened by a team of about 5 'young gods'? (entirely possible party composition, 5 Demigods. At level 30, it's implied that essentially you are going to take up full, if minor, godhood as soon as the campaign ends, so a lvl 30 team is essentially an adventuring party of Gods and beings of Godlike power.) Of course, even a level 30 party would only be able to threaten him if they got him in such a situation as to be able to actually fight him.

No, he shouldn't be threatened in the slightest by 5 level 30 characters. Think of it this way: The multiverse has been around for a long time. Asmodeus has been around from the beginning, quite literally. He has managed to hold off assassinations from demon princes, celestial invasions, pissed-off gods, and plenty other threats to his power...yet he is supposed to be threatened by a handful of recently-ascended mortals?

If that were the case, he would have been bumped of centuries ago at the very least due to pure statistics: if a party of 5 demigods faces him once a year, he'll eventually die to iterative probability, and the prospect of one of the most powerful beings of Law being killed due to randomness is laughable.

Of course this reasoning isn't quite supported in 4e, because in 4e monsters aren't built to fight each other, because that would be too much work and the PCs are special and of course no monsters would ever have reason to fight, but (A) in 1e and 2e the monsters were statted differently but were on the same PC number scale and (B) I have long maintained that having PCs and NPCs on the same system was one of the best things to happen in 3e, so read that last point with this in mind.


Thinking about the way you word it, it's the implications of the Cap that, perhaps, seem to bother you? Well, the concept is that the game should come to a climax at about level 30, the end of the Epic Tier, where the players can challenge the heavens and hells themselves. Sure, the fact that gameplay caps at that level does imply the potential for creatures existing that the pc's could never challenge, but that assumes the creation of arbitrarily powerful entities. Level has more relevance now. Level 33 is 'Powerfull as a God', level 35 is along the lines of 'powerful as any god!'

Which comes down to "PCs are special" once again. If you introduce the possibility that every single creature in the multiverse is beatable by level 30, one of two things happens: (A) every single one of those creatures has already been killed and replaced, because the multiverse is really damn old and the probability that no one every got to level 30 and tried to off Orcus is negligible, or (B) the PCs are the first ones to get to level 30 in the entire history of the multiverse, which, while it would make an interesting premise for a campaign, should not be the basis of the entire epic tier for all games everywhere.

In prior editions, you'd better believe that there were beings you couldn't defeat at 20th/30th/40th level. The archfiends have been fighting each other for eons; no, you don't get to magically succeed at killing them just because you want to see if you can. In some cases, these were simply statless ("Sigil encounter: 4 dabus and Lady of Pain. Dabus, HD 5+3, AC -3, claws 2d4; Lady of Pain: --") and in some cases they were given stats such that only if PCs were high above the norm (i.e., if a group consciously decided to break rules or build ridiculous characters to challenge them) would they have a chance to be defeated, in which case the fact that no one who came before had a chance makes sense because no one else had such ridiculous power.

Am I saying such creatures should be DM fiat monsters who are just there for fluff? If you want that, sure; Asmodeus is, has been, and always will be Lord of the Ninth, forever and ever. Otherwise, I'm saying you need to put them at a power level that makes sense, and having Asmodeus, Lord of the Ninth, absolute master of Hell, who defeated all other Lords of the Nine combined in the Reckoning, etc. being able to be killed by 5 creatures less powerful than any 5 Lords does not make sense.


Sure, you could homebrew a level 55 creature, and your pc's couldn't stop it. Neither could any God, or Primordial, or Demon Prince. Nor most armies of the above. It would basically exist outside all meaningful scale of power. 11 out of 10. Purple out of 5.

1-10, mundane.
11-20, Legends
21-30, inter-planar demigods, realm spanning forces
31-(40?) Gods, Reality Devourers, Aspects of the Universe, Eternals, Pun-Pun.

This, I think, is part of the problem: If you are in a multiverse where "infinite power" gets up to level 40 at max, levels in general are meaningless unless saying "Pun-Pun is level 40" is merely a formality. The most ridiculous logarithmic power curve doesn't put infinity at a finite number.


(Oh, by the way, at least some of the Archdevils HAVE been statted[...]but Asmodeus is, as yet, and as far as I know, not.

That's what I meant.

[Drakyn]

I know there is no conceivable way in which this is helpful, but this reminds me of my uncle's old 1st edition monster manual, which had damage stats for Orcus slapping you. 1-4, I believe, because using d's was a century away.

Actually, I think the main reason I remembered this was because it had stats for all the archdevils, sucky ones, if I think right. They all had pretty bollocksy health - maybe under a hundred for almost all, with Asmodeus either at 99 or somewhere just under it, if my lousy memory's trustworthy. I think demogorgon had 200 and that was the most in the whole book of any creature...

[Tiki Snakes]

Dice;
The way you argue it, is basically reverse murphy's law.
Anything that can happen, has happened.

Which, I can see your reasoning behind, but I'm not sure I follow you to the extreme conclusions you take it to. It's just a bit of a stretch.

I can't help but think that, at the end of it, how you run 3.5 and how 4th ed works isn't really so far apart as you think, but you seem to be getting caught on the form of things, or so. Eh, It's late.

Essentially, I really don't see that a capped system makes any difference to the issues you are worried about. If a level 30 character can stand a chance in, aha, hell at taking on Asmodeus and beating him, why should that mean he has already been beaten? Why should it any more so than in an un-capped system, where the same character could have levelled to 40, 50, 100. Whatever level you feel happy with group of younger, lesser deities taking on one who is elder and singularly more powerful.

See, the way I see it? That level, there, that you feel that several younger gods could begin to take on their elder, powerful predecessors? That's Level 30. :)

[HamHam]

Only if you go by CR, which doesn't always work. Take Orcus and Glasya, for instance: Both CR 22 creatures, but not the same power level.
Orcus has an attack routine of Wand +44/+39/+34/+29 (2d6+18/19-20+2d6 unholy+2d6 chaotic plus death), and claw +35 (1d6+6), and gore +35 (1d8+6), and sting +35 (1d6+6 plus poison). Glasya has an attack routine of +3 keen scourge of speed +42/+42/+37+32/+27 (2d6+11/19-20), and bite +34 (2d6+4 plus poison). Advantage: Orcus.
Orcus has AC 48/touch 20/flat-footed 42. Glasya has AC 46/touch 27/flat-footed 34. Advantage: Orcus (though Glasya is marginally better vs. casters).
Orcus is immune to ability drain, crits, [death], electricity, energy drain, [mind-affecting], negative energy, paralysis, poison, and sneak attacks; has resistance 10 vs. acid, cold, and fire; has SR 35. Glasya is immune to fire and poison; has resistance 10 vs. acid and cold; has SR 35. Advantage: Orcus.
Orcus HP: 455. Glasya HP: 350. Advantage: Orcus.

This continues with minor variations; I don't want to write any more out.As you can probably see, if Orcus is better than Glasya in most areas (except a few points on saves and an aura), they shouldn't have the same CR--or, if they do, it obviously means that having the same CR doesn't mean having the same power level.

They should have the same CR, because the "minor variations" you are dismissing are Glasya's true power. Will DC 37 to not be confused for 10 rounds. Not mind-effecting, so Orcus is not immune and needs to roll a 17 to make the save. Also, Glasya has far superiour SLAs, with much higher save DCs (DC 30 Finger of Death compared to Orcus's DC 25 Wail of the Banshee) and a bunch of other abilities like disease, poison, and wisdom drain.

Oh, and Orcus can't actually deal her any lethal damage because she has Regeneration.

[Maerok]

Which comes down to "PCs are special" once again. If you introduce the possibility that every single creature in the multiverse is beatable by level 30, one of two things happens: (A) every single one of those creatures has already been killed and replaced, because the multiverse is really damn old and the probability that no one every got to level 30 and tried to off Orcus is negligible, or (B) the PCs are the first ones to get to level 30 in the entire history of the multiverse, which, while it would make an interesting premise for a campaign, should not be the basis of the entire epic tier for all games everywhere.

In prior editions, you'd better believe that there were beings you couldn't defeat at 20th/30th/40th level. The archfiends have been fighting each other for eons; no, you don't get to magically succeed at killing them just because you want to see if you can. In some cases, these were simply statless ("Sigil encounter: 4 dabus and Lady of Pain. Dabus, HD 5+3, AC -3, claws 2d4; Lady of Pain: --") and in some cases they were given stats such that only if PCs were high above the norm (i.e., if a group consciously decided to break rules or build ridiculous characters to challenge them) would they have a chance to be defeated, in which case the fact that no one who came before had a chance makes sense because no one else had such ridiculous power.

Am I saying such creatures should be DM fiat monsters who are just there for fluff? If you want that, sure; Asmodeus is, has been, and always will be Lord of the Ninth, forever and ever. Otherwise, I'm saying you need to put them at a power level that makes sense, and having Asmodeus, Lord of the Ninth, absolute master of Hell, who defeated all other Lords of the Nine combined in the Reckoning, etc. being able to be killed by 5 creatures less powerful than any 5 Lords does not make sense.

QFT!


For any attack X, Asmodeus saw it coming.

Ancient artifacts, spells, weaknesses, etc..

I believe that there are some things that not even a DM should be allowed to tackle unless you yourself are Asmodeus - lines you can't justly cross; otherwise, you run the risk of being a complete and utter mook when you finally tell your group "Well, you killed him. Good job!" It's just something that I feel no one can run up to par or even begin to fathom the level of complexity that Asmodeus plots at. You should be dead moments before you can even become a threat to him and if you are not it's because he let you.

[chiasaur11]

QFT!


For any attack X, Asmodeus saw it coming.

Ancient artifacts, spells, weaknesses, etc..

I believe that there are some things that not even a DM should be allowed to tackle unless you yourself are Asmodeus - lines you can't justly cross; otherwise, you run the risk of being a complete and utter mook when you finally tell your group "Well, you killed him. Good job!" It's just something that I feel no one can run up to par or even begin to fathom the level of complexity that Asmodeus plots at. You should be dead moments before you can even become a threat to him and if you are not it's because he let you.

If this is the case...

WHY ISN'T HE RUNNING THE UNIVERSE ALREADY?

I mean, I can accept "brilliant". I can accept "You're the greatest wizard the world's ever seen, with millenia of practice and aid from the gods themselves surpassing that they give their own children? Okay. Maybe you have a shot. Maybe."

However, when it gets to "Asmodeus is so perfect, and so brilliant, that this whole campaign was his idea, and all you did was helping him, and also he could have killed you at any time" that it gets to silliness. If we're talking intellegence so perfect nothing can match him, contingencies that make Batman weep in awe, and stats that make every cheese build other than Pun-Pun pop its monocle and say "I say, chap, that's going a bit far, Wot?", then he should run the furshlugginer Universe and any campaign involving him is the pettiest kind of DM railroading.

Although that one story? With the bottles and the note?

Pretty boss.

[Shosuro Ishii]

WHY ISN'T HE RUNNING THE UNIVERSE ALREADY?



Because there are equally powerful beings out there who have a vested interest in the universe not being run by him. If Asmodeus does try to take over the multiverse, than he draws the ire of a number of other beings who are equally high above the PCs in terms of power.

Giving the gods stat blocks was a big mistake in my opinion. The gods should have remained fluff and given stat blocks like Cthulhu.

Asmodeus
extra-planar archdevil
Attacks: 1d4 PCs per round

[Maerok]

If this is the case...

WHY ISN'T HE RUNNING THE UNIVERSE ALREADY?

I mean, I can accept "brilliant". I can accept "You're the greatest wizard the world's ever seen, with millenia of practice and aid from the gods themselves surpassing that they give their own children? Okay. Maybe you have a shot. Maybe."

However, when it gets to "Asmodeus is so perfect, and so brilliant, that this whole campaign was his idea, and all you did was helping him, and also he could have killed you at any time" that it gets to silliness. If we're talking intellegence so perfect nothing can match him, contingencies that make Batman weep in awe, and stats that make every cheese build other than Pun-Pun pop its monocle and say "I say, chap, that's going a bit far, Wot?", then he should run the furshlugginer Universe and any campaign involving him is the pettiest kind of DM railroading.

Although that one story? With the bottles and the note?

Pretty boss.

Because it's all just part of the plan. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I believe Xykon has a very keen speech on power.

[Dixieboy]

They should have the same CR, because the "minor variations" you are dismissing are Glasya's true power. Will DC 37 to not be confused for 10 rounds. Not mind-effecting, so Orcus is not immune and needs to roll a 17 to make the save. Also, Glasya has far superiour SLAs, with much higher save DCs (DC 30 Finger of Death compared to Orcus's DC 25 Wail of the Banshee) and a bunch of other abilities like disease, poison, and wisdom drain.

Oh, and Orcus can't actually deal her any lethal damage because she has Regeneration.
And even if she didn't have some sort of advantage to make up for it, she still has the template "Asmodeous is my daddy" :smalleek:

Which is a +10 LA right there due to the whole "Daddy! The adventures are bothering me! :smallfrown:" ability.

[Kris Strife]

Sensing what was moments from transpiring, Graz'zt does a flying slow-motion leap away from the demonic horde as it implodes in a massive swirling cesspool of destruction. A cry of "If'n everything's destroyed, aint nothin' to sex up!" is heard faintly echoing from the vicinity of the explosion.

Is it bad that I imagined Graz'zt's voice being that of a 1950-60s black cartoon pimp in this?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Dice;
The way you argue it, is basically reverse murphy's law.
Anything that can happen, has happened.

Which, I can see your reasoning behind, but I'm not sure I follow you to the extreme conclusions you take it to. It's just a bit of a stretch.

Let me put it this way:

The multiverse is really old. I mean really freaking old. By the 3e rules, a character will go from level 1 to level 20 in approximately 6 months (13 encounters * 20 levels = 260 encounters in 180 days, assuming 4 encounters a day with a few days of downtime in between levels). Levels are slightly slower in prior editions, but I don't have those XP tables with me at the moment to check. Just over 1/3 of all characters will be full spellcasters, meaning that if you assume a conservative estimate that around 3 adventuring parties start exploring every year, that means that every single year for pretty much forever, 4 nerdy bookworms or novice priests go from studying 0th-level spells to routinely breaking the laws of physics over their knees. If you assume that the majority of adventuring parties are good or neutral with good tendencies, that's 3 20th-level spellcasters that might have a motivation to go after Asmodeus.

If you assume that only 1% of those characters decide to actually go for him, and only 1% of that 1% actually make it to Nessus, and only 1% of the 1% of the 1% make it to Asmodeus himself, that's still at least a few hundred billion adventurers. Think of any games you've played in or run; exactly how often do the BBEGs in your world survive at higher levels if the players really want to kill them--I mean, "this guy personally killed my family so I'm going to true res and go after him as often as necessary" really want to kill them. Every time Asmodeus kills a party, they either get true rezzed, rinse, and repeat, or if he traps their souls their allies will come after him.

How many characters can you think of, even ones from the ELH, can survive a few dozen 20th-level characters showing up to their doorstep and challenging them to duels to the death? Either Asmodeus can make them not attack him, in which case he has powers of mind control far surpassing the best enchanter if he can convince mind-affecting-immune creatures and gods not to do so; or he doesn't kill them but has practically impenetrable defenses, in which case he surpasses the best Batman wizard; or he has the most powerful offensive abilities, in which case he makes a buff-and-blast CoDzilla look like a child; or a combination of the three.


I can't help but think that, at the end of it, how you run 3.5 and how 4th ed works isn't really so far apart as you think, but you seem to be getting caught on the form of things, or so. Eh, It's late.

Essentially, I really don't see that a capped system makes any difference to the issues you are worried about. If a level 30 character can stand a chance in, aha, hell at taking on Asmodeus and beating him, why should that mean he has already been beaten? Why should it any more so than in an un-capped system, where the same character could have levelled to 40, 50, 100. Whatever level you feel happy with group of younger, lesser deities taking on one who is elder and singularly more powerful.

See, the way I see it? That level, there, that you feel that several younger gods could begin to take on their elder, powerful predecessors? That's Level 30. :)

The problem is that the level scale is exponential--the ol' Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards problem (except that in this case it also involves Exponential Deities). A difference of 10 levels can mean the difference between being literally unable to lose to an opponent and being literally unable to survive against an opponent. In 4e's level-capped system, the most powerful creature is within 5 or 10 levels of the most powerful PCs, making it a really tough challenge but not insurmountable--and 4e's math makes a challenge of +/-10 not all that different. In prior editions, a gap of 20 levels is really freaking big, so even a level 40ish Asmodeus would be almost impossible for nonepic characters, and he could easily be much higher than that (keeping in mind that the BoVD/FC2 stats are for his aspect, and a pathetic one at that).

Or, to put this another way: How many solars could Asmodeus take out if they wanted to kill him? A solar is CR 20, and if Celestia emptied its armies, it could probably field a few thousand of them if it meant overturning the Lord of the Ninth. If a 5th-level character is about max real-world normal, a 10th-level character is getting to ridiculous levels of power, and a 20th-level character can kill practically infinite numbers of 1st-level characters before his coffee, for Asmodeus to have survived to this point he'd have to be able to take out any solars that challenged him, putting him around 40ish.


If this is the case...

WHY ISN'T HE RUNNING THE UNIVERSE ALREADY?

I mean, I can accept "brilliant". I can accept "You're the greatest wizard the world's ever seen, with millenia of practice and aid from the gods themselves surpassing that they give their own children? Okay. Maybe you have a shot. Maybe."

However, when it gets to "Asmodeus is so perfect, and so brilliant, that this whole campaign was his idea, and all you did was helping him, and also he could have killed you at any time" that it gets to silliness. If we're talking intellegence so perfect nothing can match him, contingencies that make Batman weep in awe, and stats that make every cheese build other than Pun-Pun pop its monocle and say "I say, chap, that's going a bit far, Wot?", then he should run the furshlugginer Universe and any campaign involving him is the pettiest kind of DM railroading.

He's not running the universe because his body is stuck in the Pit below Nessus and he can't actually leave the Hells. He can run the Blood War by proxy, punish any Lords of the Nine that step out of line, and otherwise do what he needs to, but he can't just gate to the Prime unless someone summons him, and even then it's only his aspect. Allies might be incompetent or traitorous, plans might be bungled by underlings, etc., so even if Asmodeus has Int: Yes, he can't ensure his plans will be carried out perfectly unless he does them himself, which he can't.

Asmodeus isn't omnipotent or omniscient, but while he's limited in his interactions with other planes, if you go to him and try to fight him on his home turf, it's over for you.


Although that one story? With the bottles and the note?

Pretty boss.

Thanks. One of my better "awesome villain" moments.

[HamHam]

Asmodeus isn't omnipotent or omniscient, but while he's limited in his interactions with other planes, if you go to him and try to fight him on his home turf, it's over for you.

This.

If you encounter Asmodeus any place other than Nesus, it's just an aspect and thus probably beatable.

If you go to Nesus, first you have to survive the army of innumerable maximum hit point Pit Fiends. Then, on his home plane Asmodeus has the equivalent of divinely morphic control over his layer's reality. Which means reality itself will be set against you.

And finally, the CR of Asmodeus's actual body is probably going to be significantly higher than any of his aspects.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

This.

If you encounter Asmodeus any place other than Nesus, it's just an aspect and thus probably beatable.

I think this is where part of the confusion over my viewpoint is, and thanks to HamHam for clarifying. If you're fighting Asmodeus anywhere but Baator, then of course you have a chance to defeat him--in fact, he might have sent an aspect specifically to be defeated in order to further other plans, and you won't figure that out for another dozen centuries.

The problem comes in when the rules depict Asmodeus and all the other gods as having the given stats in their actual form. Asmodeus's simulacrum being 20th level? Works for me; he's most likely got hundreds of those things. Asmodeus's aspect being 30th level? Sure; he's got a dozen or so lying around. Asmodeus himself being beatable by 5 30th-level wannabes? That's where the line is drawn. If when people say "kill Asmodeus" they mean "destroy a single aspect and set his plans back for maybe a day or so, if that" then all is fine and dandy, but the assumption seems to be that you can actually kill and permanently remove him under those circumstances, which as I stated before makes the internal consistency of the setting go down in flames.

[Kaiyanwang]

The problem comes in when the rules depict Asmodeus and all the other gods as having the given stats in their actual form. Asmodeus's simulacrum being 20th level? Works for me; he's most likely got hundreds of those things. Asmodeus's aspect being 30th level? Sure; he's got a dozen or so lying around. Asmodeus himself being beatable by 5 30th-level wannabes? That's where the line is drawn. If when people say "kill Asmodeus" they mean "destroy a single aspect and set his plans back for maybe a day or so, if that" then all is fine and dandy, but the assumption seems to be that you can actually kill and permanently remove him under those circumstances, which as I stated before makes the internal consistency of the setting go down in flames.

Agree 134%

[Tiki Snakes]

Let me put it this way:

The multiverse is really old. I mean really freaking old. By the 3e rules, a character will go from level 1 to level 20 in approximately 6 months (13 encounters * 20 levels = 260 encounters in 180 days, assuming 4 encounters a day with a few days of downtime in between levels). Levels are slightly slower in prior editions, but I don't have those XP tables with me at the moment to check. Just over 1/3 of all characters will be full spellcasters, meaning that if you assume a conservative estimate that around 3 adventuring parties start exploring every year, that means that every single year for pretty much forever, 4 nerdy bookworms or novice priests go from studying 0th-level spells to routinely breaking the laws of physics over their knees. If you assume that the majority of adventuring parties are good or neutral with good tendencies, that's 3 20th-level spellcasters that might have a motivation to go after Asmodeus.


Let's assume the above.

Okay, every single calender year 4 nerdy bookworms learn to break reality over their knee.

How much higher do they have to get, before Asmodeus must quake at the mention of their name? I mean, the universe is pretty old, right, so there's been plenty of time. Let's assume we pick some Spellcasters from the Elven Lands, or what have you. I hear there are some grey-ones that are particularly noteworthy? If people are hitting Level 20 every year, (in just six months time each), don't you think that at some point previously a Grey Elf or several might have taken aside about, oh, 10 or 20 of their many many years just to accumulate power?

If the universe is so old as to make the above scenario a mathematical certainty in a capped system, it does exactly the same in an uncapped system, all that changes are the numbers attatched, really.

And let's face it, if you're getting 4 new level-20 wizards a year, that's a lot of Batman's floating around after a generation or so. Because, let's face it, in 3.5 an appropriately prepared Batman wizard is to all intents and purposes immortal if he's made it past level 10 or something. If he's hit epic, he's likely Immortal in practice, too. If we're taking leveling up as an innevitability.

If Asmodeus is powerful enough to not fear a level 300 Batman Wizard, why on earth does he waste his time with such pointless things like Armies, or the insects that mortals refer to as the Arch-Devils?

[Yukitsu]

Asmodeaus is a nerdy bookworm rules lawyer that learned to break reality over his knee aeons ago, so he's been at the grinding mill for longer than any new upstart nerdy bookworms. As well, once a wizard hits epic, he starts to run out of things that grant him any EXP, making leveling rather slow and difficult.

As well, he doesn't care about the blood war at all, and is not concerned about the archdevils. He simply keeps them doing as he wants them to. What he's concerned with is Celestia, which has people similar to him, but on the opposite end of alignment.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If Asmodeus is powerful enough to not fear a level 300 Batman Wizard, why on earth does he waste his time with such pointless things like Armies, or the insects that mortals refer to as the Arch-Devils?

Because he can't get what he wants personally. Asmodeus wants to see the entire multiverse under diabolical rule, wants to see the demons crushed utterly, wants to personally destroy the gods who wronged him--but he can't, because he can't leave Baator. The only option he has is to resort to minions and underlings.

Stephen Hawking may be able to MacGuyver a solution all of the world's problems with a laptop and a paperclip...but he can't do anything without help as long as he's paralyzed in his wheelchair. He needs people to buy things for him, interpret for him when his image-to-speech database isn't clear, and so on; in the same way, Asmodeus needs oblivious cultists on the Prime, the Dark Eight to fight his Blood War, etc.

[Khanderas]

Agree 134%
I also agree, so its up to 156% now.

[chiasaur11]

I also agree, so its up to 156% now.

PERCENTAGES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!

[Belial_the_Leveler]

To permanently remove Asmodeus from the game:

1) Spread chaos in the prime so that the amount of lawful evil in the world decreases.
2) Call and imprison all the archdevils so he has fewer and less useful pawns to play with.
3) Open up permanent Gates between layers of the Abyss and Hell-at least fifty layers of the Abyss should be linked per layer so that demons will outnumber devils 50 to 1.
4) Get large amounts of popcorn and observe while the chaos of the Blood War spreads over Hell.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

3) Open up permanent Gates between layers of the Abyss and Hell-at least fifty layers of the Abyss should be linked per layer so that demons will outnumber devils 50 to 1.

Unfortunately, powers can prevent planar travel in their domains and set the magic traits, so any gates that did somehow manage to get established would send through demons whose magic didn't work to face devils whose magic would.

[quick_comment]

And not only that, the gates provide an excellent choke point for the devils. They would outnumber the demons 24:1 or so, as they all crowded around the gate that only 1 demon can come through at a time.

[DragonBaneDM]

I think we all need to read the first post in this thread...


5. The battles will take place in the World, where no one side has the advantage, or is on the defensive or offensive.

And Asmodeus not being able to leave the Nine Hells presents issues, but moreso for the devils than the demons. See, Tharizdun is gonna far outpower any devil, archdevil, or aspect he encounters in the world. The Abyss is already his, and the World falls as soon as Asmodeus gives up on sending armies he's not able to personally lead into the World. And the gods are dead. Also in that first post.

Should read that sometime...

Tharizdun is an Elder God, afterall. The only person on the opposite side able to last more than a few rounds with him is Asmodeus himself.

We're all looking at Asmodeus's stats and comparing them to PCs, Pun Pun, etc etc etc. What about the big gun on the other side? Who's got his info?

[HamHam]

I think we all need to read the first post in this thread...



And Asmodeus not being able to leave the Nine Hells presents issues, but moreso for the devils than the demons. See, Tharizdun is gonna far outpower any devil, archdevil, or aspect he encounters in the world. The Abyss is already his, and the World falls as soon as Asmodeus gives up on sending armies he's not able to personally lead into the World. And the gods are dead. Also in that first post.

Should read that sometime...

Tharizdun is an Elder God, afterall. The only person on the opposite side able to last more than a few rounds with him is Asmodeus himself.

We're all looking at Asmodeus's stats and comparing them to PCs, Pun Pun, etc etc etc. What about the big gun on the other side? Who's got his info?

Both sides should be limited to sending Aspects.

[DragonBaneDM]

Well what fun would that be? Hahaha.

I just wanna see Fiends forming a circle and yelling "God fight! God fight!" And just cause Asmodeus can't appear in person, that doesn't mean Tharizdun won't.

He's anything but fair.

[Flickerdart]

Isn't Asmodeus' current form just an avatar for some sort of world-serpent type deal? I'm pretty sure that thing could own Tharizdun if Asmodeus decided to reveal it.

[DragonBaneDM]

I honestly think he's more powerful than Asmodeus one on one. I can't see why he wouldn't be.

[Shosuro Ishii]

I honestly think he's more powerful than Asmodeus one on one. I can't see why he wouldn't be.

He probably is more powerful one on one, but why in the name of Asmodeus would Asmodues fight one on one. That's not how the man works. Sure, if you arbitrarly decide that he has an stroke and decides it would be a good idea to go toe to toe with an Elder God at 15 paces, than he would get destroyed, but that's not what Asmodues would do.

It's like asking who would win in a battle of wits, Boccab or Grummish.

[chiasaur11]

Well what fun would that be? Hahaha.

I just wanna see Fiends forming a circle and yelling "God fight! God fight!" And just cause Asmodeus can't appear in person, that doesn't mean Tharizdun won't.

He's anything but fair.

So's big A.

Only he's better at covering his cheating.

[DragonBaneDM]

So then what hope do his armies face in the world when Tharizdun is throwing them around personally? No one can really stop him besides numerous gods that are already dead in this scenario.

[Tiki Snakes]

Numerous Gods working together stopped tharizdun without, as far as anything I've read on the subject, losing a single God.

The Devils have an easy time with him, in as much as they will with very little effort have the combined strength of the entire forces of the Lords of the Nine AND the Demon Princes, because Tharizdun is incapable of maintaining a command of them for any period of time, and they aren't the forgiving or subservient types.

Tharizdun, on his own, vs the forces of the Abyss AND Hell? He's not going to hang around and push his luck, I'm guessing. Tharizdun flees once more.

[Dixieboy]

So's big A.

Only he's better at covering his cheating.
Except Asmodeus does not in-fact
cheat.

He's just really, really good at finding loopholes.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Isn't Asmodeus' current form just an avatar for some sort of world-serpent type deal? I'm pretty sure that thing could own Tharizdun if Asmodeus decided to reveal it.

The problem is the "world-serpent type deal" is the real self stuck at the bottom of Nessus; the Asmodeus avatar can move around in the Hells, but still can't travel to the Prime on his own volition.

However, he can have more than one aspect, so even if a direct Asmodeus-aspect vs. Tharizdun fight might be in Tharizdun's favor because Asmodeus isn't a direct confrontation kind of guy, the outcome of a battle between Tharizdun and a dozen or so Asmodeus aspects plus the Lords of the Nine would probably be in the devils' favor.

[zoobob9]

all of these answers are based on fourth edition

demons vs. devils: tie. devils have more soldiers. not all of them are as powerful as demons, but it says in the dm's guide on page 163 that asmodeus has many rakshasa followers. demons will put up a tremendous fight: creatures such as the pod demon can spawn more fighters wich are while weak a renewable resource. demons also havedifferent resistances. the balor's resistances, for example, are: 40 fire' 20 variable(3/encounter; see glossary). though this ability can be resistant against any type of damage, it's limited to x times, thus it will be useless after a while. hopefully a particular demon would have taken at least one devil down by the time they run out.

Demon princes vs. archdevils: from my knowledge i cannot give a good guess on this topic because i know nothing of archdevils.

i think demon princes would have an edge because if it was in the natural world orcus would have more undead to raise and since everyone he kills either rises as a dread wraith or an abyssal ghoul myrmidon he has theoreticly infinite soldeirs at his disposal. Demogorgon would be at a huge advantage underwater, as would dagon. kazuul and tharek(demogorgon's minions) are also extremely high level, so they can take on strong opponents.

Tharizdun vs. Asmodeus: tharizdun. in a one one one battle, tharizdun would destroy asmodeus because it says in the monster manual that it took all of the gods to put chains on tharizdun in the first place. if more creatures were involved, for example orcus, orcus could quickly use touch of death and at least make asmodeus bloodied, if not dead.

those are my thoughts.

[Altima]

The original terms are invalid as there are several deities that reside within the Hells itself, meaning they would not be insta-gibbed by Tharizdun, and would most likely stand with Asmodeus, especially if demons were threatening their demesne. And FR-level lesser deities consider a thousand pit fiends to be merely a distraction.

Asmodeus is not an idiot. He has been stockpiling Nessus with the most bad ass devils since the dawn of creation. Know how awesome level 20 PCs are? Imagine the Pit Fiend equivalent. There are literally millions of elite devils dwelling in Nessus simply getting stronger and stronger.

Then there's the Yugoloths, who will most likely side with the devils.

I'd have to vote for Asmodeus, simply because of the fact that intelligent evil is better than chaotic stupid.

It's a moot point, though, for as soon as Tharizdun comes near the Cage, the Lady of Pain will blast him into oblivion before tossing the remains into entropy.

[Cracklord]

It's like asking who would win in a battle of wits, Boccab or Grummish.

Gruumash, hands down. He his mental stats are those of a greater deity, and he's a lot faster and more impulsive. Boccob sits in a room contemplating the mysteries of the universe, and has been at it for time beyond possobility.
Or, if you prefer, better a good answer today then a perfect answer tomorrow.

Oh, and for the record, Raistlin would win the fight, as when all the demons leave hell, he'd come up and kill them both, become chief god and destroy all life in the universe, then consume himself.:smallwink:

[Darcand]

Asmodeus wins, most likely by talking Tharizdun into chaining himself back up in exchange for an icecream bar and season tickets to the opera. Then he lets out a sigh and goes back to just tricking demons and devils into fighting each other rather then spilling out into the other planes.

[Leewei]

Hmm. I'm embarrassed to cite this source, but I'm pretty sure Asmodeus was cowed by one of Gygax's novelized heroes -- who at some point had to flee from Tharizdun. I think it was "Dance of Demons". Be warned, the paper from this publication is unfit as toilet tissue.

[zarakstan]

A similar thing has probably been posted, but here is my take:

1. Demons haphazardly charge and taken apart by the ranged attacks of the devils, the demons don't really stand a chance here . . . with a good general the devils shouldn't loose anyone of CR 15 or higher

2. After their army is crushed the Demon Lords are more nervous about the onrushing hoard of baatzue (misspelled) than the lame despot and teleport away to safety and then pick back up their old feuds

3. Asmodeus no question . . .