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View Full Version : [4e] Rogue? Bard? Making a hapy-go-lucky scoundrel type



mcv
2009-07-11, 07:08 AM
Our regular Earthdawn GM is on vacation, so another guy suggested giving D&D4 a try. Rather than spending the entire session building characters that we're not going to use, he's going to build all the characters based on fun questions and descriptions that seem to have nothing to do with the rules at all.

We're from a simple farming/hunting community. One guy is a blacksmith, for example. Mine is a lazy no-good farmhand who prefers to spend his time chasing girls or gazing at the clouds. If something needs to be done, he prefers smart solutions over hard work. He's more someone for traps and tricks than actual fighting.

I don't have to worry about how to make that guy, because the temporary GM is doing all the real work, but still I wonder what the best way would be to design this character in D&D4. Note that I know almost nothing about D&D4, but I've been reading up a bit on it. Or at least the first level of Bards and Rogues, because those seem to be the most obvious classes for this.

First thing I notice: the Bard is a lot more magical tan I expected. Second thing: the Rogue is much more of a fighter than I expected. My impression was that in D&D3 (of which I also know almost nothing), they were pretty similar: versatile skill monkeys. In 4th, one is a Striker, the other a Leader.

So what would be the best approach to do a scoundrel who's more of a lover than a fighter, more interested in fame than music, and prefers a clever trick over direct confrontation?

Unless I've uncovered a new roguish niche, my guess would be it's somewhere between Rogue and Bard. Multiclassing perhaps? The thing is, the Bard multiclass feat doesn't sound terribly appropriate. Sneak of Shadows (the Rogue MC feat) sounds interesting: thievery + sneak attack. And then choose the least magical, most trickerish Bard talents, I suppose. Or would a plain trickster Rogue be better? Maybe a Half Elf and take an appropriate Dilettante power from Bard?

To be honest, I haven't looked in sufficient detail at all feats and powers yet, so I'm not sure which ones are really the most appropriate. I do get the impression that Virtue of Cunning and Advantage of Cunning combine extremely well with Sneak Attack.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-07-11, 09:53 AM
What you probably really want is an Artful Dodger Rogue. Stick to daggers but attack mostly from range. High Dex and high Cha are what you are going for with this build. Fluff as appropriate.

The bard is, as you said, rather more magical than I think you are wanting. While there are three types of bard (melee, bow and implement) that may be able to do what you want, I think Rogue fits you best. Also playing a striker is much easier for a new player than playing as a leader. Leaders require a lot of tactics, much of which comes from just having played the game for a long period of time. Striker is pretty much dealing damage. With the rogue, you will also be sliding foes around the battlefield a bit too, so you aren't simply tossing damage dice.

However, with 4e, party composition is much more important than a single specific role. While a party of all strikers or all defenders or such can work, it is much easier to have a balanced party make-up. WotC recommends one of each role and a fifth man to round out the team. Since almost any class can cover the Striker slot semi-efficiently, check to see if there are any players who have a Leader class. If not, you may want to consider playing as the bard. Again, you don't have to have all four roles covered. It's just easier that way.

Learnedguy
2009-07-11, 10:19 AM
A crossbow focused rogue sounds like what you want, perhaps coupled with some suitable bard multiclassing. So yeah, what you said.

Yakk
2009-07-11, 10:36 AM
An easy out would be to place a divine blessing on your character, and make him a Paladin/Avenger etc. And pick the right $deity, and your character's philosophy would fit right in.

Hal
2009-07-11, 10:43 AM
The thing is, the type of character you're describing (skills and tricks over fighting and combat) doesn't really exist in 4e. I mean, you can technically make someone who ignores all of their class powers during combat, but you'd be a severe drag on the party.

Two possible solutions I can think of:

1) Work out in advance with your DM a bunch of "skill challenges" to be used in combat rather than your attack powers. This would be a mountain of house ruling, and require a lot of impromptu description of your actions based on the environment, but it might be more in line with what you want.

2) Take an existing controller class and reflavor it to your ends. You can describe the debuffs however you choose (you're not a druid entangling the monster with roots, you're a farm boy dashing in and tying up his legs). This might be a bit off from what you actually wanted, but it's a good compromise without hurting the power level of the party.

Xallace
2009-07-11, 11:20 AM
The thing is, the type of character you're describing (skills and tricks over fighting and combat) doesn't really exist in 4e. I mean, you can technically make someone who ignores all of their class powers during combat, but you'd be a severe drag on the party.

Not necessarily. Environment can be easily taken advantage of, if you're perceptive and ask the right questions (and the DM gives you something more descriptive than "Dungeon Room #5," which some DMs do, unfortunately). Stampeding bulls or a falling chandelier can be just as effective as your class features.

But I do agree with the idea of playing a controller and reflavoring your powers. Utilize every resource you have, powers and otherwise. The druid might be a good choice, as suggested, since you'll have both melee and ranged control powers.

LCR
2009-07-11, 12:31 PM
I have a related question.
I really liked my trickster beguiler in 3.5 and would like to play a similar character in 4E.
Is there any way to build a versatile, scheming, mind-twisting character that would rather avoid fights or manipulate them in advance (charming, bluffing, intimidating his enemies)?

Mando Knight
2009-07-11, 01:02 PM
I have a related question.
I really liked my trickster beguiler in 3.5 and would like to play a similar character in 4E.
Is there any way to build a versatile, scheming, mind-twisting character that would rather avoid fights or manipulate them in advance (charming, bluffing, intimidating his enemies)?

Manipulating the enemies in advance would fall under Rogue and Bard skill-wise. In combat, I'd lean more towards Illusion Wizard (Arcane Power) or Psion. (Player's Handbook 3, preview available for DDI subscribers)

RTGoodman
2009-07-11, 01:04 PM
I have a related question.
I really liked my trickster beguiler in 3.5 and would like to play a similar character in 4E.
Is there any way to build a versatile, scheming, mind-twisting character that would rather avoid fights or manipulate them in advance (charming, bluffing, intimidating his enemies)?

I think the 4E Telepath Psion (it'll be out in PHB3 next year, but D&DI subscribers got access this month via the Compendium/CharBuilder) could fit your needs pretty well. Their powers are all Psychic and deal with Mind-Control (a lot of domination and dazing and stuff, making them attack their enemies, debuffing them), they get access, I believe, to all the major social skills, AND their secondary stat, after Int, is Charisma. Not to mention, they don't get encounter powers, but get more at-wills that they can boost with power points to do different/better effects, making them pretty versatile.

I've been fiddling around with a Changeling (ECG) Psion lately, and with tweaking it could be a VERY scheming, manipulation character.

mcv
2009-07-11, 01:31 PM
Also playing a striker is much easier for a new player than playing as a leader. Leaders require a lot of tactics, much of which comes from just having played the game for a long period of time.
We actually did play once before, and that time I had a Warlord. I wasn't entirely sure what to do with all the shifting and sliding that my attacks let me do, but I did manage to set up a couple of flanks there.


With the rogue, you will also be sliding foes around the battlefield a bit too, so you aren't simply tossing damage dice.
Well, there are a couple of interesting powers that I think could turn out quite cool. I'll list them below.


However, with 4e, party composition is much more important than a single specific role. While a party of all strikers or all defenders or such can work, it is much easier to have a balanced party make-up.
After that first game, my Warlord gave me the impression that a part of all leaders could be very effective: everybody can heal anybody else, everybody shifts and slides all over the place setting up one cool combo after the other. With only one Warlord and one Paladin as close combat guys (the other two were a Wizard and a Warlock I think -- both ranged), I only had one guy with whom to set up combos, and if he's in the wrong place, a Warlord is just not as cool.


Environment can be easily taken advantage of, if you're perceptive and ask the right questions (and the DM gives you something more descriptive than "Dungeon Room #5," which some DMs do, unfortunately). Stampeding bulls or a falling chandelier can be just as effective as your class features.

I admit I'm not sure what to expect there. The previous time this guy GMd D&D4, it was really no more than: this is the map, there are the bad guys, go kill them. It was a tactical skirmish with no need for a GM. No roleplaying involved at all, IMO. But then, that was perhaps more a demo of how D&D4 works, and this game looks like it's going to be very different. He wants us to describe our characters personalities rather than their stats, so I'm quite hopeful it's going to be a lot better than last time.

In general, though, the GM isn't a fan of simulationism, and prefers either extreme gamism or vague narrativism (if those GNS terms mean anything to you). So it's quite possible that making clever use of the environment won't work in his game.


An easy out would be to place a divine blessing on your character, and make him a Paladin/Avenger etc. And pick the right $deity, and your character's philosophy would fit right in.
How would that work? I know nothing about Avengers, and thought Paladins were straight-up honourable fighters against evil, rather than womanising tricksters.

Learnedguy
2009-07-11, 01:33 PM
The real problem with trickery though is the fact that it isn't really meant for combat. Trickery and mischief is committed when there's no half-orc trying to create a prolonged separation between your head and your body, but when you got time to do something prepare some mischief. This is accomplished byd oign something so dastardly, cunning, that we've given it a special term. We call it roleplaying.

This will translate into a high charisma score and skills in bluff, street wise, thievery and acrobatics really (remember, it's a dc 15 check to do dramatic acrobatics! Use it!). Your character might not be a shining star when the fighting starts, but outside of it, he's a sneaky little bastard who always got the next scheme going on.

Case in point: Locke Lamorra from the Gentleman Bastard sequence (great series, read it now). In dnd terms, Locke is a mid-level rogue. Brilliant and charismatic, he can quick talk himself out and into almost everything. He runs what he himself thinks of as brilliant cons. Of course, no plan is perfect, as Locke tends to find out the hard way, as more than once a brilliant plot has literally explode in his face. Still, Locke is the kind of genius that never stops running. Through improvising, luck and sheer devilry, his tongue and wit has held him a life for twenty-five years now.

In a pure fight though, Locke is a bit of a weakling frankly. People intending to kill you very seldom listen to anything you have to say, and Locke is simply no good with the rapier. Only by sneaking up on people from behind while his burly comrade in arms Jean Tannen (read: Tempest Fighter) keeps them busy is he able to hurt anyone, shivs in kidneys style. Locke isn't completely helpless though, and he has on more than one occasion used his cunnings to compensate for his lack in skill. For instance, he was made famous when he rode a casket of ale down on the head of a crazed warrior fanatic before slitting the poor staggered (and ale-drenched) soul's throat.

Basically, in a fight, Locke uses bluffs and acrobatics checks to get impromptu combat advantage on his enemies long enough for him to infuse their spleens with cold steel, scoundrel style:smallwink:

erikun
2009-07-11, 01:37 PM
One thing I like about 4E is that just about any archtype can be made from just about any character, assuming you have the right skills. I'm currently running a Paladin who uses Diplomancy, Bluff, and Gather Information to act more along the line of a diplomatic bard - outside of combat, anyways. It sounds like you want training in Bluff, Insight, possibly Diplomancy, and probably Stealth and Thievery for your character concept. Look at a class with those skills, and multiclass for the rest.

Rogue has access to all the skills I mentioned, except Diplomancy, and doesn't dance around throwing spells. The problem is that he dances around throwing knives. :smallamused: You can be quite tricky with a Rogue, especially with abilities which can help you disappear from a fight, but may not like the backstabbery approach.

As you said, the 4E Bard is more than just a singing Rogue. A lot of his powers feel more like a herald than a battle trickster, and I can't really think of a Bard playing tricky. They do get a good selection of skills, though.

Warlock, especially with the Fey Pact, is probably more what you're looking for. A lot of their spells involve moving enemies around, penalizing them, or just vanishing from view. You could refluff Warlocks Curse as luckstealing, and Misty Step as evasion - or just say that you've attracted the attention of some Fey sprites, which are helping you out in combat. Not the best skill selection, though.

Finally, a Wizard using Illusions (Arcane Power) gives you quite a large bag of tricks, if staying out of direct combat is your goal. It's even a decent multiclass with Warlock, as INT/CHA are the two main scores for both. Your skills won't be in line with your character concept, though, if you try pure Wizard.

Mando Knight
2009-07-11, 01:45 PM
How would that work? I know nothing about Avengers, and thought Paladins were straight-up honourable fighters against evil, rather than womanising tricksters.

If the Paladin follows a deity like Sharess (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sharess), womanizing is their way of life. 4E's Paladin class is no longer the "Super Self-Righteous Knight With The Stick Up His Rear And Class Abilities To Shove His Point Of View On You," they're warriors that follow their deity's commands.

Learnedguy
2009-07-11, 02:37 PM
Warlock, especially with the Fey Pact, is probably more what you're looking for. A lot of their spells involve moving enemies around, penalizing them, or just vanishing from view. You could refluff Warlocks Curse as luckstealing, and Misty Step as evasion - or just say that you've attracted the attention of some Fey sprites, which are helping you out in combat. Not the best skill selection, though.

Now, there's a catch I like. Lazy farmboy jinxed by fey folks? Credible, with some great hooks (with barbs!) stuck to it!

mcv
2009-07-11, 03:10 PM
Here's a list of Rogue/Bard powers that sound suitable good for this character. (I haven't looked at any other classes, like Paladin, Avenger or anything else that might be suitable, though I'll definitely have a look at Druid later.)

At-Wills:

Rogue:
Deft Strike: Mobility is always good I guess. Either for getting away or for sneak attacking. Do I understand correctly that I can make two steps instead of one before my attack? How do attacks of opportunity work here? Otherwise it's a pretty basic attack. Probably not worth taking as MC power.

Piercing Strike: Targets reflex rather than AC. Could this represent the effect of some kind of trick that bypasses armour?

(Riposte Strike sounds too much like high-brow fencing. Sly flourish sounds cool, but it only does extra damage.)

Bard:
Guiding Strike: The description claims I'm pointing out a weakness to my allies, but it could just as easily be that the enemy is off balance or exposed because of some trick I pulled, right? Sand in his eyes, or whatever.

Vicious mockery: Sounds like I'm taunting him, and as a result he's distracted. Odd that it does damage, but hey, that's D&D4.

Misdirected Mark sounds interesting, but I've for no idea what it means to be marked, and it sounds like a ranged magical attack -- not quite what I'm looking for. War Song Strike sounds like a typical inspirational singing bard ability to me. Not what I'm looking for.

Encounter abilities:
Rogue:
Dazing Strike: Sounds exactly like I pulled some dirty trick, and now he's dazed.

Positioning Strike: Looks like I trip him, and direct him exactly where I want him. (Even more so for an Artful Dodger.)

King's Castle is interesting: the perfect coward's attack: strike and hide behind a big buddy. Could be okay, but isn't quite what I'm looking for. I won't even discuss Tortuous Strike.

Bard:
Blunder: Absolutely perfect! I trip him, and he blunders past my friends who get to attack him. Only one problem: it's a ranged spell. Would be perfect for melee. (Or did I pull a trick from a distance? Spanned some trip wire there, distracted him somehow?)

Fast Friends: Keep talking so he won't attack me. Hopefully my friends show up soon.

Inspiring Refrain: Sounds too musical, but couldn't it just be that I got everybody some combat advantage somehow?

(Shout of Triumph? No, that's not quite it.)

Dailies:
Rogue:
Blinding Barrage: I don't get it. I shoot a crossbow fast enough to blind lots of people at once? Sounds like a clever trick with a mirror or sand in their eyes would be a much better explanation.

Easy Target: I set him up for a good attack, he's somehow slowed, I get combat advantage. Sounds like I pulled a clever trick there, right?

Trick Strike: It's in the name, but I'm actually less impressed than with the other two dailies. It does more damage, but that's not very high on my list.

Bard:
Slayer's Song: Sounds violent, but granting combat advantage actually sounds pretty appropriate.

I don't know about the others. Echoes of the Guardian does the marking thing again. No idea what to think of that. Stirring Shout heals my allies which is nice, but not terribly appropriate. Verse of Triumph? I've got no idea. We hit harder and moves faster when we kill somebody?

Other abilities:
Sneak Attack: Stabbing people isn't quite what I'm about, but surprising them from the rear is definitely more my style than a straight up fight.

First Strike: Combat Advantage on everybody? Hell yeah!

Rogue Tactics: Artful Dodger is infinitely more appropriate than Brutal Scoundrel.

(Couldn't care less about Rogue Weapon Talent.)

Bard:
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Cunning looks extremely appropriate. Combined with the Advantage of cunning feat and Sneak of Shadows you can set up some nasty counter attacks. Could that be a trick or a trap?

Multiclass Versatility: Unlikely to come into play, but otherwise probably suitable.

Skill Versatility: Sounds suitable.

Word of friendship might be suitable. Majestic Word less so. Song of Rest? Nah. But Ritual Magic (Bardic Training) is probably least appropriate. (Incidentally, some of those Wizard's cantrips sound very suitable for trickery, but there's no way to get those other than by becoming a Wizard or Gnome.)

Multiclass Feats:
Sneak of Shadows: Get Thievery and Sneak Attack! Yeah!

Bardic Dilettante: Get a skill and Majestic Word. Meh.

So for multiclassing, Bard/Rogue looks a lot better than Rogue/Bard. However, a Half Elf Rogue could still get a Bard At-Will power (usable as encounter power, I think).

Learnedguy
2009-07-11, 03:22 PM
So for multiclassing, Bard/Rogue looks a lot better than Rogue/Bard. However, a Half Elf Rogue could still get a Bard At-Will power (usable as encounter power, I think).

I believe I've seen a paragon feat somewhere in the Player's handbook to Faerun or the PHB2 that makes it an at-will.

Mando Knight
2009-07-11, 03:22 PM
MC Sneak Attack is only 1/encounter, and is still restricted by the Rogue weapon list. You could go for Rapier proficiency, though...

mcv
2009-07-11, 03:38 PM
I'll look into Fey Pact Warlocks and Paladins, but I'm not eager to go overboard on magic or religion.

In fact, I think the suggestion to focus on clever use of skills (Bluff, Insight, Thievery, Stealth and Streetwise are the obvious choices) outside combat is great, but since D&D4 is mostly a combat game, I do want to have something appropriate to do during combat. Something more than cowering or bashing heads.

I like the At-Wills of Bard quite a lot more than the At-Wills of Rogue, but for the skill selection, I'm afraid I need to go with Rogue. Bards don't have Stealth (Thievery can be gotten through Sneak of Shadows).

I'm suddenly wondering if it wouldn't have made more sense to get Stealth with Sneak of Shadows. That's the "sneak" skill after all, isn't it?

JaxGaret
2009-07-11, 03:46 PM
Mine is a lazy no-good farmhand who prefers to spend his time chasing girls or gazing at the clouds. If something needs to be done, he prefers smart solutions over hard work. He's more someone for traps and tricks than actual fighting.

A Fey Warlock could suit this guy really well:

He's lazy, so he just wants to sign on the dotted line (the pact) and get some cool powers, rather than work for his power.

He's tricksy. A lot of Warlock powers involve trickery, and this dovetails nicely with the Fey pact - Fey are known for being tricky.

Also, Fey Warlocks in particular are notorious for avoiding physical combat.

Maybe a Warlock/Rogue for even more trickery powers.

mcv
2009-07-11, 03:51 PM
MC Sneak Attack is only 1/encounter, and is still restricted by the Rogue weapon list. You could go for Rapier proficiency, though...

Once per encounter limits its usefulness quite a bit, but I don't want to go about sneak attacking all the time. Then again, what else am I going to do with all that combat advantage that the other powers are going to get me?

And it has to be a Light Blade. Does that only include Rogue weapons? Shortsword (also a Bard proficiency) would be fine by me. I'm not sure about rapier.

I'm also suddenly wondering if lack of Stealth skill is really a problem. I want my combat advantage through trickery and manipulation, not through stealth, right? I could even be really flashy about my tricks and cunning plans. I think I could live without Stealth, which makes Bard (which has the coolest At-Wills) an option again.

I'm not sure how much of an issue the limited Sneak Attack is, though.

Mando Knight
2009-07-11, 04:19 PM
And it has to be a Light Blade. Does that only include Rogue weapons? Shortsword (also a Bard proficiency) would be fine by me. I'm not sure about rapier.

By "rogue weapon list" I meant the weapons that a Rogue can use for Sneak Attack. Short swords will work, Rapiers will work, Double Swords (AKA broken-beyond-all-reckoning) will work, Superior Crossbows will work, etc. Sorry if I was unclear.

The compatible weapon groups are as follows:
Light Blades
Crossbows
Slings (small, small weapon group here)
Clubs (Ruthless Ruffian class feature)
Maces (Ruthless Ruffian class feature or Street Thug feat)
One-handed Hammers, axes (Dwarf-exclusive Tunnel Stalker feat)
Longswords (Eladrin-only Longsword Finesse feat)