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Mystic Muse
2009-07-11, 04:20 PM
title says it all

AslanCross
2009-07-11, 04:26 PM
The Pact Primeval was a powerful document signed by Asmodeus and the gods of law to basically assign Asmodeus the position of cosmic jail warden. The gods were tired of having to deal with wicked souls personally, so Asmodeus (a former angel who, with his minions were designed to defeat the primordial chaos of the universe---read: demons---and in the course of fighting with them, began to take on their evil characteristics) volunteered to be the one to deal with evil souls.

This deal involved Asmodeus being given domain over the Nine Hells, since the gods didn't want him splattering the blood of wicked souls all over their polished marble floors in the Heavens. Asmodeus moved in, and began his duties, but the gods realized that he was not only actively corrupting and entrapping souls to ensure their damnation, but was siphoning power off the souls of the wicked mortals he was capturing.

The gods were aghast, but apparently, they didn't read the fine print. (Source: Fiendish Codex 2)

The Pact itself is written on three copies, if I'm not mistaken; one in the Heavens, one in Mechanus, and one in the Nine Hells. Each copy is an artifact of overwhelming good, overwhelming law and overwhelming evil.

herrhauptmann
2009-07-11, 05:40 PM
That's pretty amazing. And I was wondering it as well after reading Tharizdun vs Asmodeus (sp?)

Thanks

DragonBaneDM
2009-07-11, 06:02 PM
Yay! My thread has babies!!! Hahaha!

Mystic Muse
2009-07-11, 06:30 PM
okay thanks.

hehehe campaign idea:smallamused:

Doc Roc
2009-07-11, 06:53 PM
Answer:
A really huge mistake.

Really.


The Great Wheel has suffered for it for time immemorial.
All because some big dumb berks thought they knew the chant when they was just not privy to the dark of things.

Zeta Kai
2009-07-11, 08:04 PM
AslanCross pretty much covered the basics. The rest can be read on Asmodeus's wiki page, specifically his History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodeus_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#History). A great place to learn about D&D long & surprisingly-rich mythology.

Haven
2009-07-11, 08:11 PM
Answer:
A really huge mistake.

Really.


The Great Wheel has suffered for it for time immemorial.
All because some big dumb berks thought they knew the chant when they was just not privy to the dark of things.

Listen to this basher. He's not just rattlin' his bone-box, he knows the dark of it.

SilverClawShift
2009-07-11, 08:21 PM
hehehe campaign idea:smallamused:

FYI, if you're thinking of stealing the Pact Primeval, you should know some things. Not much is known about the copies on Mechanus and Heaven, but the copy in hell is in the deepest pits of the lowest layers. It's encased in a ruby bigger than you are. The (heavily trapped and guarded) palace it's in was literally built AROUND the pact, with doorways smaller than the ruby itself. And just looking at it lets Asmodeus himself know that you're there near it (as if he didn't know allready).

Have fun. :smallsmile:



Listen to this basher. He's not just rattlin' his bone-box, he knows the dark of it.

Sigilspeak should be a real language, with classes and everything.

Maerok
2009-07-11, 08:31 PM
Asmodeus has had a long time to think and plan his defenses. Theft is not an option, if you get your hands on it, it is because he let you.

He's the Ultimate Rules Lawyer and master manipulator.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-11, 09:22 PM
Asmodeus has had a long time to think and plan his defenses. Theft is not an option, if you get your hands on it, it is because he let you.

He's the Ultimate Rules Lawyer and master manipulator.

not in my campaign:smallbiggrin:

yeah I know how amazingly impossible he's supposed to be to defeat. I want to find a logical defeat for him but I think I'd need about 5,000 on my INT score:smallsigh::smallfrown:

can anybody help me find a way to kill him? (4th edition game. there are stats on site if they don't exist elsewhere)

Mewtarthio
2009-07-12, 12:12 AM
The trouble with stealing the Pact Primeval is that there's two other copies of the thing, so they can just remake it. Once one is threatened, the other two will be alerted, making a concerted attack difficult at best. And it has to be a concerted attack: If you successfully steal one, then they start taking you seriously, and having all the forces of pure, primal Law as a serious antagonist is a Very Bad Thing.

On the plus side, you only have to steal two of them. The Pact on Mechanus is guarded by beings of pure Law who are probably incapable of even thinking about tampering with it, so that's trustworthy enough that it has to go. If the only remaining Pact is in the hands of either Good or Evil, however, the other side will accuse the bearer of "fixing" the minor details, which results in a serious bureaucratic snafu that sends the planes into Chaos, which is probably your goal.

Unless there's some blasted entity of pure Law that's memorized the entire thing. But, ha ha, it's not like we're talking about transcendent beings with mental capacities far beyond our greatest imaginings who've had an eternity to look it over, right?

All this, of course, assumes that they don't just hunt you down, consume your pathetic soul, and take back the Pact. Oh, they'll do the first two just fine, of course. You just need to figure out a way to destroy the epic, god-subjugating artifact that forms the basis for much of the conflict between Good and Evil before they get to you.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 12:18 AM
What if a careful strike was launched on all three at once and the goal was to destroy, not to steal?

What would happen if all three copies were irrevocably destroyed?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-12, 12:21 AM
What if a careful strike was launched on all three at once and the goal was to destroy, not to steal?

What would happen if all three copies were irrevocably destroyed?Doesn't need to be all 3, you only need to get rid of 2(the one in the 9 hells and the one on Mechanus). The Celestials have been looking for a way out of the Pact since basically 30 seconds after signing it. Get rid of the other 2 copies, and they'll probably 'lose' theirs.

chiasaur11
2009-07-12, 12:24 AM
not in my campaign:smallbiggrin:

yeah I know how amazingly impossible he's supposed to be to defeat. I want to find a logical defeat for him but I think I'd need about 5,000 on my INT score:smallsigh::smallfrown:

can anybody help me find a way to kill him? (4th edition game. there are stats on site if they don't exist elsewhere)

Well, there is one way, but it requires a lenient 3rd edition DM, a copy of Serpent Kingdoms, and a lot of moxy.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 12:26 AM
Doesn't need to be all 3, you only need to get rid of 2(the one in the 9 hells and the one on Mechanus). The Celestials have been looking for a way out of the Pact since basically 30 seconds after signing it. Get rid of the other 2 copies, and they'll probably 'lose' theirs.

No. They are too lawful for that.
They would want to and they would bicker over it (the non-lawful vs the lawful). But I think at the end of the day they would just make a copy for hell and emchanus with a very heavy sigh. Hell would know this. Mechanus is much the same. Hell is the same as well, though they would make copies with glee. :P

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 12:26 AM
I have a cunning plan. It involves Epic Magic, a Wizard/Master Specialist/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, a Druid/Master of Many Forms/Planar Shepard, a Sorcerer/Mindbender/Incantatrix/Fatespinner, a Ninja/Swashbucker/Dread Pirate, a Kobold Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold domain/Pun-Pun Knight Vindicator, Bard/Warweaver, a Shadowcraft Gnome, a Hulking Hurler, a Witchalock Witchalock, Fistbeard Beardfist, two tweezers, 15 ounces of oil, the Pope, and a dull penknife.

chiasaur11
2009-07-12, 12:32 AM
Ok, I have a plan. It involves Epic Magic, a Wizard/Master Specialist/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, a Planar Shepard, a Rogue/Swordsage/Chameleon, a Sorcerer/Mindbender/Incantatrix/Fatespinner, a Ninja, a Bard/Dread Pirate, a Shadowcraft Gnome, a Hulking Hurler, Fistbeard Beardfist, two tweezers, 15 ounces of oil, the Pope, and a dull penknife.

I thought of that one, but then I realized how silly it was.

I mean, two tweezers? One should be able to do the job just fine.

Copacetic
2009-07-12, 12:46 AM
I thought of that one, but then I realized how silly it was.

I mean, two tweezers? One should be able to do the job just fine.

One has to be prepared. This IS a
epic, god-subjugating artifact that forms the basis for much of the conflict between Good and Evil.

after all.

13_CBS
2009-07-12, 12:52 AM
Fistbeard Beardfist, two tweezers, 15 ounces of oil, the Pope, and a dull penknife.

That, sir, is cheese, which is frowned upon in these parts of the forum. :smallmad:


(:smalltongue:)

chiasaur11
2009-07-12, 12:55 AM
That, sir, is cheese, which is frowned upon in these parts of the forum. :smallmad:


(:smalltongue:)

Well, really, I'd only call it cheese if the pope is also a Harlem Globetrotter.

Now that, I can see the potential issues.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 01:05 AM
I mean, two tweezers? One should be able to do the job just fine.
That sort of thinking is why you shall never be able to destroy the pacts.

Ganurath
2009-07-12, 01:13 AM
What you really need to steal Asmodeus's copy is an Epic version of Gate to overcome Asmodeus's defenses against the spell being cast, cast by someone with blindsight. If your objective is to destroy it, the eye of the storm that is the Negative Energy Plane is a safe bet. If your objective is to possess it... The question is raised as to why.

AslanCross
2009-07-12, 01:48 AM
I know Epic Magic is cheese, but it is totally impossible to gate directly to Nessus. All gates to the Nine Hells dump you onto Avernus instead.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-12, 01:54 AM
What you really need to steal Asmodeus's copy is an Epic version of Gate to overcome Asmodeus's defenses against the spell being cast, cast by someone with blindsight.

...at the very least. If you do absolutely everything in your power to avoid detection, open the gate into the place near the Pact where Asmodeus would least expect, and still find a tray of wines and cheeses waiting for you with Asmodeus nowhere in sight, ABORT. :smallbiggrin:

Minor tangent:I actually pulled this off at one point. A party of 6 60th-level PCs had the assistance of Levistus to get into Nessus and Mammon to prevent their detection. The archdevils assured them that to their knowledge not even Asmodeus could defeat their protections. When they gated into Nessus, they found a tray with 5 wine glasses, assorted cheeses, and a note saying "Please feel free to start without me--A."

At first they laughed at Asmodeus because he only knew about 5 of them to prepare for...then one of them picked up a glass and drained it in one gulp; in the bottom was engraved "It was necessary to put in a special request because I understand your paladin has taken a vow against drinking alcohol; he can find a non-alcoholic beverage on the shelf to his right. Apologies for the inconvenience.--A." When they discovered that, in fact, of all the shelves in the room only the one next to the paladin had a glass on it, and that no other glasses had engraving in them, they left. Fast.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 01:59 AM
...at the very least. If you do absolutely everything in your power to avoid detection, open the gate into the place near the Pact where Asmodeus would least expect, and still find a tray of wines and cheeses waiting for you with Asmodeus nowhere in sight, ABORT. :smallbiggrin:

Minor tangent:I actually pulled this off at one point. A party of 6 60th-level PCs had the assistance of Levistus to get into Nessus and Mammon to prevent their detection. The archdevils assured them that to their knowledge not even Asmodeus could defeat their protections. When they gated into Nessus, they found a tray with 5 wine glasses, assorted cheeses, and a note saying "Please feel free to start without me--A."

At first they laughed at Asmodeus because he only knew about 5 of them to prepare for...then one of them picked up a glass and drained it in one gulp; in the bottom was engraved "It was necessary to put in a special request because I understand your paladin has taken a vow against drinking alcohol; he can find a non-alcoholic beverage on the shelf to his right. Apologies for the inconvenience.--A." When they discovered that, in fact, of all the shelves in the room only the one next to the paladin had a glass on it, and that no other glasses had engraving in them, they left. Fast.

Your DM is awesome.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-12, 01:59 AM
If your objective is to destroy it, the eye of the storm that is the Negative Energy Plane is a safe bet.


Negative-Dominant
Planes with this trait are vast, empty reaches that suck the life out of travelers who cross them. They tend to be lonely, haunted planes, drained of color and filled with winds bearing the soft moans of those who died within them. As with positive-dominant planes, negative-dominant planes can be either minor or major. On minor negative-dominant planes, living creatures take 1d6 points of damage per round. At 0 hit points or lower, they crumble into ash.

Major negative-dominant planes are even more severe. Each round, those within must make a DC 25 Fortitude save or gain a negative level. A creature whose negative levels equal its current levels or Hit Dice is slain, becoming a wraith. The death ward spell protects a traveler from the damage and energy drain of a negative-dominant plane.

The NEP doesn't harm objects.. :smallconfused:


Unless there's some blasted entity of pure Law that's memorized the entire thing. But, ha ha, it's not like we're talking about transcendent beings with mental capacities far beyond our greatest imaginings who've had an eternity to look it over, right?

Or just, you know, a modron.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 02:01 AM
That's where the Kobold Cloisetered Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator comes in. I think they can pull off the infinite 1d2 damage trick.

Just have him punch the fabric of reality so hard that you break through to Nessus.

Adumbration
2009-07-12, 02:01 AM
Out of curiosity, how many 20th level characters would it take to invade hell or abyss?

Any class/prestige class/amount allowed.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-12, 02:03 AM
That's where the Kobold Cloisetered Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator comes in. I think they can pull off the infinite 1d2 damage trick.

Just have him punch the fabric of reality so hard that you break through to Nessus.

Obviously, but.. What does the ninja do?


Out of curiosity, how many 20th level characters would it take to invade hell or abyss?

X. Asmodeus just uses Alter Reality to off them before they were born.

Ganurath
2009-07-12, 02:04 AM
The NEP doesn't harm objects.. :smallconfused:In that case, you have the perfect place to store it. Place to destroy it is the Eye of Limbo.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 02:05 AM
Obviously, but.. What does the ninja do?
Flip out and kill people, one would assume.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-12, 02:06 AM
Your DM is awesome.

I am the DM. :smallbiggrin:

Xenogears
2009-07-12, 02:09 AM
I am the DM. :smallbiggrin:

So did they ever get ganked by Asmodeus or did he (for some inexplicable reason) leave them be with just scaring them.

Ganurath
2009-07-12, 02:18 AM
Unleash Tharizdun to distract everyone while you set Pandorym loose. Once Pandorym is free, the connection between the Material Plane and the rest of the cosmology is severed, breaking all three Pacts in one fell swoop. As an added bonus, he'll kill off Tharizdun. The Mind Flayers will then use their power to guide Pandorym back to their common homeland. They will do this in exchange for the crippling of their main competitors for dominion of the Underdark: The cleric-dependant Drow empire.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 02:19 AM
Now you just need a way to backstab the mindflayers after they get the god-killing abombiamation under control.

Ganurath
2009-07-12, 02:27 AM
Prevent them from reproducing by turning as many humans as you can into Elans and killing the remainder. Maintain solid half-orc and half-elf populations until the mind flayers go extinct, then get them to interbreed. The elven and orcish elements should oppose and negate one another, resulting in pureblooded humans. The orcs will be lead into the Underdark, where they will claim the new lands as their entire world, fulfilling the promise of their dead god while ruling the other monstruous races. With all the major evils of the land neutralized, the appeasement of the aboleths brought by destroying the mind flayers will get them to aid the (sea) elves in a generation-long war to wipe out the sahuagin, the last great threat to existence.

Oh, and they make the god-killing abomination leave, send it home to the Far Realms. Much better than letting it hang around and threaten (their) existence.

Post Script: Reviving humanity after the mind flayers are extinct is optional.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 02:29 AM
So, can we make this into a campaign or what?

The New Bruceski
2009-07-12, 02:32 AM
Now you just need a way to backstab the mindflayers after they get the god-killing abombiamation under control.


Poisoned brains. It's obvious.

Ganurath
2009-07-12, 02:33 AM
Depends. Are the PCs trying to pull this off, or prevent it? There's a lot of deicide and genocide involved.

Bruceski: I like my way better. It's more efficient. They'll be too busy warring with the reeling drow to prevent genocide against humanity. Since they need to implant humans to reproduce, they're doomed to die a slow death.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 02:35 AM
I'd try to cause it. I figure we can prevent the genocide of the good races well enough. The Mindflayers can also be crippled by destroying the Elder Brains, after all.

Ganurath
2009-07-12, 02:38 AM
...You know, it really says something that the best way to steal from Asmodeus kills all the gods and wipes out most of the evil things from the Material Plane.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 02:41 AM
Pfft. We don't need no stinkin' gods.

Besides, enough worship and they'll pop right back. I'm sure there's other ways of resurrection them as well.

In the meantime, before all of them drying and being resurrected, we can waltz in and steal the pacts.

Ganurath
2009-07-12, 02:55 AM
...I thought the objective was to destroy them by rendering them void via severring the connection between the Material Plane and the rest of the cosmology via Pandorym.

Mind Flayer: So, when are we sending Pandorym back?
Cleric of Tharizdun: When all the gods are dead.
Exiled Drow Wizard: Crippling the Drow empire, as promised.
Mind Flayer: ...Won't sending Pandorym away unleash a vengeful Asmodeus on us?
Beguiler Servant of Mephistophiles: He'll be a bit busy defending himself from Mephistophiles.
Gray Guard: With his prime source of power lost, and a great deal of his defenses focused on an empty shell, he won't be able to put much effort on seeking vengeance on the Material Plane. Not until your are extinct, anyhow.
Mind Flayer: Wait, what?
Beguiler: Not until the drow are extinct, anyhow. Present company excluded.
Drow: Thank you.
Mind Flayer: ...Alright.

Twilight Jack
2009-07-12, 02:56 AM
I am the DM. :smallbiggrin:

Kudos to you, sir.

Not for the fact that Asmodeus utterly owned them in a truly wonderful display of understated might, but for the fact that he signed his notes with a single breezy initial.

There's something delightful afoot when a nigh-omnipotent being with a damned impressive name is so certain of his reputation that he can manage with no more than a letter.

~ J.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 03:27 AM
...I thought the objective was to destroy them by rendering them void via severring the connection between the Material Plane and the rest of the cosmology via Pandorym.
Yes, yes, but we can fix that later.

SlyGuyMcFly
2009-07-12, 05:44 AM
Kudos to you, sir.

Not for the fact that Asmodeus utterly owned them in a truly wonderful display of understated might, but for the fact that he signed his notes with a single breezy initial.

This. Having Asmodeus sign his notes with an simple A. is a masterful touch :smallbiggrin:

Haven
2009-07-12, 06:43 AM
Sigilspeak should be a real language, with classes and everything.

Definitely! It's too bad we cant have anything like this in real life. I felt bad about italicizing it, but after the "Or, you know, a modron" comment I cant...er, can't take any chances.

Also! Pair'o'dice wins. Everything.

Coidzor
2009-07-12, 07:12 AM
Hmm. I feel like squeeing. Odd. I'll have to see a doctor about that.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-12, 09:47 AM
the objective is to destroy the pact. completely and utterly beyond recovery. the lawful good gods won't make the mistake of signing another one.

if there ARE any lawful good gods. depends on if this one player makes it to the end of the campaign.

I also think the idea of a god coming back with enough worship could be interesting. THAT'S why they have to destroy the pact primeval. as long as it exists asmodeus will. if it doesn't they can kill him. of course it'll take a huge amount of leniency but I think I might be able to work something intelligent out.

Mewtarthio
2009-07-12, 10:16 AM
You could always involve the Far Realms. Reality is... different there, so your players might be able to use it to cheat their way past many divine defenses, and leaving the Pact there is probably just as good as destroying it. Plus its not like you're handing your players a free lunch, since calling a plan that involves the Far Realms "risky" is like calling Bruce Banner "peckish."

Maerok
2009-07-12, 02:50 PM
So you don't need to steal the Pact as much as put it in a Bag of Holding and drop it into a Portable Hole?

chiasaur11
2009-07-12, 02:58 PM
X. Asmodeus just uses Alter Reality to off them before they were born.

Alternately: One Kobold ex-paladin.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 03:09 PM
So you don't need to steal the Pact as much as put it in a Bag of Holding and drop it into a Portable Hole?

No, you sneak it in between two portable holes, which absorb each other and remove themselves from the universe.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-12, 03:11 PM
No, you sneak it in between two portable holes, which absorb each other and remove themselves from the universe.

Just shove it up the mage's A-hole:smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2009-07-12, 04:13 PM
What's it take to rip a sizable hole into the far realm anyway?

...And for some strange reason I keep thinking Ocean's DND for this...:smallamused:

thegurullamen
2009-07-12, 04:28 PM
No, there's only one way to destroy the Pact Primeval and it's nine ways. You have to feed it to the Tarrasque, carve off a toe, cast Clone on that, kill the Tarrasque, feed the Tarrasque corpse to the clone, kill the clone, Polymorph Other it into a cute kitten, beat it with a weapon that is essentially St. Cuthbert's Cudgel, The Book of Exalted Deeds and the Eye of Vecna all duct taped together while hanging by one leg from a rotting rope over a volcano on the Plane of Fire.

Coidzor
2009-07-12, 05:27 PM
And then you dump that half of the plane of fire into the far realm! :smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2009-07-12, 09:51 PM
No, there's only one way to destroy the Pact Primeval and it's nine ways. You have to feed it to the Tarrasque, carve off a toe, cast Clone on that, kill the Tarrasque, feed the Tarrasque corpse to the clone, kill the clone, Polymorph Other it into a cute kitten, beat it with a weapon that is essentially St. Cuthbert's Cudgel, The Book of Exalted Deeds and the Eye of Vecna all duct taped together while hanging by one leg from a rotting rope over a volcano on the Plane of Fire.

this would be fun:smallbiggrin: