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shadow_archmagi
2009-07-11, 09:38 PM
So, I was recently toying around with the idea of a Linear Guild type group of NPCs. (Evil counterpart opposites to the PCs)

A necromancer to counter the druid (abusing the flow of life instead of maintaining it)

A fighter to counter the barbarian (smooth, controlled style instead of raging fury)

A wizard to counter the sorcerer (trained, systematic casting instead of free-styling versatility)

A death knight to counter the paladin (evil chaos instead of lawful good)

A sunder-loving monk to counter the artificer (destroying items instead of making them).

Then I realized that I could save time and avoid redundancy by just making a necromancer wizard. Then I realized that I could save even more time by just having the fighter sunder things. And be evil.

Then I thought "As long as I'm not actually going with a whole party, I might as well make mash the remaining two concepts together" and so here I am, asking for advice on how best to make a gish.

Remember, the idea of this particular flavor of challenge is to hit the party, make them feel they've been hurt without any real danger of killing them, and then leave so they can get on with really hating him.

HamHam
2009-07-11, 09:40 PM
So some kind of Death Knight necromancer who destroys items? What system? What level?

Gaiyamato
2009-07-11, 10:25 PM
Check out the Death knight Base class in "Secret College of Necromancy".
Basically an evil paladin type build that works a little like Dread Necromancer in that you eventually become an undead type.
Bizarrely it doesn't gain Rebuke Undead though. Maybe a Death Knight/Dread Necromancer Gish?

The other option is to simply make an actual Death Knight, give him some LA buyback, then slap on a Gish styled base class or Dread Necro (only for max of 8 levels or so). Maybe give him some of the funky Death Knight and Generic Undead templates.

Eldariel
2009-07-11, 10:48 PM
I suggest the following shell:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight -> (depending on what level you want him on) with Wizard-levels as Necromancer with the Enhanced Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants)-variant (to give him a bit of a Necromancer-feel - he's really a fine Necromancer that way) and Fighter Feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) (to get few of those for the Fighter-side).

Just get Improved Sunder -> Combat Brute in addition to Power Attack (which you should give him anyways), give him access to magic item wracking spells (maybe Dispel Magic + Shatter?), and yeah. The "Death Knight"-half could either be from fluff (easy enough to describe the guy as one without a single level in the actual class) or race, although if you really wanted to, you could replace the Fighter-level with Paladin of Slaughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofSlaughterClas sFeatures)-level. You could make him Necropolitan [Libris Mortis] or Death Knight [MMII]. Both are Templates and thus applicable to Humanoids. Death Knight has more style points due to having a Nightmare mount.

Something like that. Alternatively, you could make him a Divine Gish using Divine Power to up the BAB to reasonable degree; Wizard X/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge X and go to town, persisting Divine Power and all that. Doesn't get that many Fighter bonus feats though (only from Wizard-levels).


But yeah, I suggest:
Death Knight WhateverRace Fighter 1/Wizard (Necromancer) 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight ->. If need be, you could replace Eldritch Knight with Knight Phantom [5Nations] which might have a bit more appropriate abilities, but they are frankly quite unimpressive (basically just spells) and Knight Phantom loses the bonus feat and requires another one to enter.

Use Energy Draining undead as his cohorts and what he's Animated (don't forget the bonuses), have him break their stuff through sword and magic and just overall be incredibly obnoxious.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-11, 11:25 PM
Might I recommend, you know, not sundering? Destroying WBL is often unfun. Cash is character power, for an Artificer especially. Losing any of it(let alone what a Sunder-build can eliminate) is pretty rough. If you equip the NPC with enough loot, the party might come out even, but then you've got a much more powerful NPC for them to fight than the CR would indicate.

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-11, 11:54 PM
I'd say Bone Knight from Five Nations (an Eberron supplement) but perhaps it's not your kind of PrC.

It's perfect for an ex-paladin who wants to have a necromantic feel. While you don't get much of the spells that a true necromancer would, you get a pretty strong feeling of necromantic vibe out of it: bone-craft armor and weapons, limited control over undead, a skeletal mount, rebuke instead of turning, boosts to undead under command, and so on. If a former Paladin, the class allows you to retain some abilities such as Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, Aura of Courage, Divine Health and the spellcasting. As well, it's a 9/10 spellcasting class so it's pretty potent for a Fighter/Cleric (which makes pretty awesome necromancers as well; the Necromancer's Handbook in the Gleemax/WotC forums can show you how.

Blackguard, though, is the natural counterpart to the Paladin. It has nearly all the powers of the Paladin, sans for Lay on Hands, the special mount (which is replaced by any kind of fiendish servant, even a horse), but all in the opposite flavor. It's also core, so it feels a bit odd that you haven't considered (though I can accept that you don't want much cliche)

I'd still go with the party thing, though. It can be delivered in nifty slices: a necromancer, death-cult cleric or even *shudder* a Blighter who opposes the Druid but meets the party in one of their adventures, then the Wizard as an NPC that feels envy of the sorcerer, then the Blackguard/Death Knight/Bone Knight that gets sent by an opposing god to hunt the Paladin. Let your characters think that those NPCs are separate individuals, perhaps even giving hints of being their antitheses, and perhaps leaving a red herring or two (the Wizard specializes in Abjuration and knows how to dispel the Artificer, so it may not seem at first that it opposes the Sorcerer in either case)

I also must second the idea of not sundering items. Not exactly because of wealth by level, but because it's usually seen by most as foul play. I'd go with the idea of nulling the buffs of the characters, and eventually suppressing the magic items (and an occasional threat of "your magic items are useless, might as well throw them. Or better yet, allow me to 'take care of them'.")

Death Knight isn't mostly a rough opposite for a Paladin, since it goes with the idea of an undying warrior, not exactly one that perfectly opposes the Paladin's ideals (hence why Blackguard works better). If you are to implement the Death Knight in either case, make it with Blackguard or Cleric/Bone Knight levels and grant some sort of balancing point to the Paladin; say, if it behaves exceptionally good (and I mean EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD), handwave a bit and allow the Saint template for epic power.

So, my take would be:

A necromancer/death cultist/ex-druid & Blighter to counter the druid

A warblade to counter the barbarian

A wizard to counter the sorcerer

A Death Knight/Fighter + Blackguard/ex-Paladin -> Bone Knight to counter the Paladin

A(n) sunder-loving monk Abjurer to counter the Artificer

RTGoodman
2009-07-12, 12:50 AM
You could probably go Hexblade X/Paladin of Tyranny 2 and then go into whatever undead-related PrC you wanted (Blackguard, Bone Knight, etc.). Gets some good Charisma synergy, good BAB, GREAT saves, and all that.

Heliomance
2009-07-12, 02:53 AM
Would a Forsaker not be the best thing to counter an Artificer?

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-12, 03:19 AM
I second the idea of going with party of opponents, especially if you can get each "opposite" to fight the corresponding party member. That would make the party have to work harder. If you just have the one opponent, it's hard for him to challenge each party member.

And instead of just thinking thematically, pick opponents and tactics that work against each party member. So for ex

The Blackguard should naturally be able to engage the Paladin.

A high AC tank using combat expertise can tie up the barbarian.

The arcane caster countering the sorcerer can directly counter his opponent with area dispels if the sorcerer uses buffs or area effects or he could counterspell the sorcerer.

But how is the necromancer going to counter the druid? That will depend on the druid and whether the druid relies on wildshape or his animal companion or summon spells or other spells. For ex, if the druid summons a lot, then a necromancer with undead minions or summon undead is called for.

As for the artificer, yeah a sunder monkey does seem a little mean. Again, how is the artificer used? Is he a blaster, a buffer, a fighter or does he command a little army of iron? The npc "opposing" him will have to contend with that. Having said that, a non-sundering monk seems like a good choice.

Given that you are going to hit the party and run, and that you as DM know the parties weaknesses, this should not be too hard to pull off. You just have to give a good hook as to why the npcs hit and run and why the pc's should face their opposites again...hopefully the party will be better prepared for the second round...

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-12, 06:48 AM
Oops. Party is currently level 5. Should've mentioned that.