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Mystic Muse
2009-07-11, 10:03 PM
I want my players to fight Asmodeus and win. is there any physical way for this to happen or is he so unbeatable he shouldn't even have stats?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-11, 10:04 PM
Get Cthulu to fight him.

Alteran
2009-07-11, 10:07 PM
Machina ex Deus: get Bahamut to build you a gigantic god-killing robot.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-11, 10:21 PM
Machina ex Deus: get Bahamut to build you a gigantic god-killing robot.

sorry. Bahamut's dead. so is Correlon, Ioun ETC. any god that isn't evil in my campaign is dead. with the exception of Pelor. for plot reasonss.

FoE
2009-07-11, 10:21 PM
To my knowledge Asmodeus hasn't been statted yet. But since it's possible to kill Tiamat or the Demon Princes, I don't see why it should be impossible to kill Asmodeus, who's a relatively "new" god.

It should only be possible at the highest tiers of ability, however. And it shouldn't be as simple as "appear in Asmodeus' domain and pop the bastard". In 4E, the gods don't have a physical vessel unless they choose to have one, so it should be a fairly involved quest to "force" Asmodeus to face you.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-11, 10:28 PM
To my knowledge Asmodeus hasn't been statted yet. But since it's possible to kill Tiamat or the Demon Princes, I don't see why it should be impossible to kill Asmodeus, who's a relatively "new" god.

It should only be possible at the highest tiers of ability, however. And it shouldn't be as simple as "appear in Asmodeus' domain and pop the bastard". In 4E, the gods don't have a physical vessel unless they choose to have one, so it should be a fairly involved quest to "force" Asmodeus to face you.

yeah that's what I was thinking. my main idea is a quest to destroy the pact primeval.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-11, 10:39 PM
So we want to do one impossible thing, namely killing an unkillable being, by doing another impossible thing, namely stealing an unstealable object inside an impenetrable fortress.

Well, it's always good to have measurable objectives, if nothing else.

Ridureyu
2009-07-12, 12:03 AM
The only gods left are evil? Please explain why exactly the world isn't irreparably overrun by the forces of darkness, and why the PCs aren't simply dead.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-12, 12:07 AM
The only gods left are evil? Please explain why exactly the world isn't irreparably overrun by the forces of darkness, and why the PCs aren't simply dead.


the heroes are the first ones in over 500 years. the gods have gotten lazy and sloppy. and most of the evil gods are dead as well.

when did I ever say the world isn't overrun with evil?

and last if it simply can't be done just say it can't be done. there's really no need to insult my campaign.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-12, 12:08 AM
Well, according to the new fluff, he's weaker than his 3.X version, so it's at least theoretically possible. Your players won't be doing it until level 28-29 most likely, though, so you've got time for WotC to come up with the stats. Until they do, we can't even begin to tell you what will be necessary.

It will, most likely, involve an Orbizard. :smallwink:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-12, 12:10 AM
I think there was a level 30 OrbWizard trick which would allow you to imprison him and having conditions which are theoretically possible but realistically improbable to release him, leaving him for all intents and purposes dead.

Making Pelor have to sign off on releasing him should be good for a clause of removal, for example...

The New Bruceski
2009-07-12, 12:15 AM
What would the effect be of destroying the Pact Primevil? If the gods are dead, where are the souls going to go?

chiasaur11
2009-07-12, 12:20 AM
What would the effect be of destroying the Pact Primevil? If the gods are dead, where are the souls going to go?

A restaurant with really bad customer service.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-12, 12:21 AM
The worst kind!

Mystic Muse
2009-07-12, 12:38 AM
What would the effect be of destroying the Pact Primevil? If the gods are dead, where are the souls going to go?


you see it's all an elaborate part of the campaign I don't want any of my current or future players knowing.

oh and you think the customer service is just BAD?! the patrons wish they had gone to the nine hells instead.

BenTheJester
2009-07-12, 12:44 AM
A restaurant with really bad customer service.

I see what you did there

ondonaflash
2009-07-12, 01:27 AM
Okay, people are all like "Stat this" and "Impossible Traps that" blah, blah, blah. You're the DM. You decide what is and isn't possible. That said, both tasks should be UNSPEAKABLY difficult, for Experienced Players Only. But my advice is to forge a plotroad that leads to one resolution resulting in the second, reward heroism with impossibly lucky results, and force one character to have to die for this quest to be finished.

Some MacGuffin will likely be needed to kill Asmodeus, like, the Sword of Michael or something, which is shattered into seven parts scattered across the world, the last of which is held by Asmodeus himself, then, once they have the sword, they have to steal the first two Pact Primevils, and go after the third, cut their way through his legions of minions and armies of might ArchFiends, and finally once they arrive set it aflame with the heart of pelor (or something), which will force Asmodeus to manifest, and then they can kill him.

But this is the end-all-beat-all. Once you start this campaign you can't top it. Your players replace the next pantheon and start over! It doesn't get bigger than this. If you're gonna try something this huge the reward has to be equally huge. So there is no stepping back, its all or nothing.

You know, or something like that. But seriously, MacGuffins Ahoy!

Hal
2009-07-12, 09:17 AM
My general train of thought is always this: If a monster that I want isn't listed, I take something of comparable power level and reflavor everything.

Asmodeus isn't listed in a monster manual yet. Grab all of the text from Orcus and reword his powers to be more like that of Asmodeus. Or some other appropriate epic level encounter.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-12, 09:38 AM
My general train of thought is always this: If a monster that I want isn't listed, I take something of comparable power level and reflavor everything.

Asmodeus isn't listed in a monster manual yet. Grab all of the text from Orcus and reword his powers to be more like that of Asmodeus. Or some other appropriate epic level encounter.

sounds good. no one-shot ability though. we don't want asmodeus to be TOO easy

Oslecamo
2009-07-12, 09:44 AM
My general train of thought is always this: If a monster that I want isn't listed, I take something of comparable power level and reflavor everything.

Asmodeus isn't listed in a monster manual yet. Grab all of the text from Orcus and reword his powers to be more like that of Asmodeus. Or some other appropriate epic level encounter.

That's really insulting Asmodeus. Orcus is just a demon prince. Asmodeus is the supreme lord of devils, who took on all the dukes of the 9 hells and won.

Wotc doesn't publish his stats because he's much more than a diety, he's the kind of guy who eat dieties for breaksfast. You would need to crush the rest of the 9 hells just to have a shot at him. Tiamat, supreme ruler of evil dragons, is his guard dog.

A 3rd party publisher once done him for 3.X rules, and he was CR 81. By 4e standards, that amounts to around level 122. Good luck defeating that.

Coidzor
2009-07-12, 10:06 AM
I'd play it as that Asmodeus is literally the plane/layer of Nessus in addition to being a god, so that in order to "face" and properly kill him, they'll have to destroy/unfetter Nessus from the rest of the nine hells. This would have to be accomplished through Plot-Quest, as I don't think anyone's ever bothered to even come up with epic magic in 3.5 to do anything along these lines to draw upon for inspiration. Much less in this 4E territory.

That also gives the players' adventure into Nessus the chance to have a taste of "The Mythic Underworld" (http://www.philotomy.com/#dungeon) Where the dungeon IS out to get them.

SilverClawShift
2009-07-12, 10:26 AM
Remember that the being called "Asmodeus" is just a face of the... 'serpent'. The serpent that caused the lowest levels of hells to be formed when it came crashing down from the heavens.
The one that most people don't even really know about, because why WOULD they? The one who's coiled underneath the ninth level of hell, that no one's ever seen or heard of, which may or may no exist in a knowable sense, which may or may not even be a physical entity, which may or may not even be perceivable by man or god alike.

THEN there's the very strong possibility that Asmodeus is the only living pillar that supports reality as we know it. Our entire cosmology, material prime heaven and hell included, every plane, is suspended in a tiny bubble that's floating through the madness of the unknowable far realm, reinforced only by the serpent that's coiled around the edges of our universe.

I'd probably not fight Asmodeus. It would be like saying you're going to punch out AO in the forgotten realms.

Indon
2009-07-12, 10:41 AM
Well, it looks like Asmodeus, as packaged, is a being well over level 30 in the 4th edition universe.

So, a few scenarios I can think of:

-Asmodeus has a powerful presence in reality but is ultimately defeatable - but that presence is not the whole of Asmodeus, so really you've just staved him off until he gets better. Mechanically, this is easiest, just rework a high-CR enemy or somesuch.

-An ancient relic from the time when all the gods were up and running about and such just happens to be usable to depower Asmodeus to a fightable point - and you could still outright make him harder than the party could normally fight and throw in one or two NPCs to help, too. Again, mechanically, only requires designing a powerful and difficult encounter.

-Houserule an epic progression (30+) that eventually empowers your players to face Asmodeus on his own terms in some way, and then give them some kind of plot coupon that explains why they get this treatment and other characters don't (like the last blessing of a now-dead deity, or something). Mechanically quite difficult.

PrismaticPIA
2009-07-12, 10:59 AM
Your party will kill Asmodeus when it is advantageous for Asmodeus to die.

Seriously, who do you think is smarter? Powergaming munchkins or the being who duped all the gods in existence?

KillianHawkeye
2009-07-12, 11:53 AM
So we want to do one impossible thing, namely killing an unkillable being, by doing another impossible thing, namely stealing an unstealable object inside an impenetrable fortress.

Well, it's always good to have measurable objectives, if nothing else.

Are you kidding? That is clearly the only possible way Asmodeus COULD be destroyed! And all according to His insidious plans, of course! :smallwink:



Not to mention that if Asmodeus ever does die, it will just be a part of his million-year Xanatos gambit to finally conquer the entire multiverse!

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-12, 11:56 AM
Your party will kill Asmodeus when it is advantageous for Asmodeus to die.

Seriously, who do you think is smarter? Powergaming munchkins or the being who duped all the gods in existence?

Frankly, I suspect this is the case and it would make a perfectly appropriate plot-twist. In many versions of Asmodeus's fluff, he can't actually leave nessus/the nine hells. Perhaps giving the Adventurers the knowledge required to 'Kill' him, is the vital part of allowing him to finally break free?)

Anyway, ignoring this and answering the OP more directly;

Read up on the existing high-level entities statted in 4th edition. Particularly Tiamat. Gods, in the new generic setting, cannot be killed under normal circumstances. If you try, they merely 'Discorporate' for a little bit. (A serious setback, but they get better.)
To actually kill a God, for keeps, it basically says that first, the DM should put them through a whole campaign worth of stuff, 'preparing'. For Tiamat, this involved stuff like bathing weapons in the Tiamat's eggs, slaying a Consort of Tiamat and making a weapon out of him, epic, involved, lengthy processes that constitute a campaign in themselves before you can even THINK about taking on Tiamat for real.

Given that they only list Suggestions, even for the God they statted, what requirements the players would have to meet to truly kill Asmodeus is entirely up to you, though it should be as flavourfull as possible.
Two notes; if you go with the "It was Asmodeus's idea all along, well, he's simply managed to feed incorrect lore into the world, and it is this proceedure that the PC's find and follow, with the Devils apparently attempting to thwart them at every step. Only Asmodeus would know otherwise, of course.
Secondly - A good way of hammering home what an epic task it is, and really flavouring it, the deed could require the Wand of Orcus, preferably breaking it down and using it to imbue the pc's weapons. This way, before they even think of taking down Asmodeus, who should be at least lvl 35, they would need to take out Orcus, a demon prince and a terror at lvl 33.


I really don't see where in the 4th edition Lore there is any suggestion that Asmodeus is any less powerful than he ever was, by the way. Infact, the Forgotten Realms incarnation of him, at least, is more powerful than ever, comparatively speaking, being as he is, now a Greater Deity. >_>

Mystic Muse
2009-07-12, 11:59 AM
Frankly, I suspect this is the case and it would make a perfectly appropriate plot-twist. In many versions of Asmodeus's fluff, he can't actually leave nessus/the nine hells. Perhaps giving the Adventurers the knowledge required to 'Kill' him, is the vital part of allowing him to finally break free?)

Anyway, ignoring this and answering the OP more directly;

Read up on the existing high-level entities statted in 4th edition. Particularly Tiamat. Gods, in the new generic setting, cannot be killed under normal circumstances. If you try, they merely 'Discorporate' for a little bit. (A serious setback, but they get better.)
To actually kill a God, for keeps, it basically says that first, the DM should put them through a whole campaign worth of stuff, 'preparing'. For Tiamat, this involved stuff like bathing weapons in the Tiamat's eggs, slaying a Consort of Tiamat and making a weapon out of him, epic, involved, lengthy processes that constitute a campaign in themselves before you can even THINK about taking on Tiamat for real.

Given that they only list Suggestions, even for the God they statted, what requirements the players would have to meet to truly kill Asmodeus is entirely up to you, though it should be as flavourfull as possible.
Two notes; if you go with the "It was Asmodeus's idea all along, well, he's simply managed to feed incorrect lore into the world, and it is this proceedure that the PC's find and follow, with the Devils apparently attempting to thwart them at every step. Only Asmodeus would know otherwise, of course.
Secondly - A good way of hammering home what an epic task it is, and really flavouring it, the deed could require the Wand of Orcus, preferably breaking it down and using it to imbue the pc's weapons. This way, before they even think of taking down Asmodeus, who should be at least lvl 35, they would need to take out Orcus, a demon prince and a terror at lvl 33.


I really don't see where in the 4th edition Lore there is any suggestion that Asmodeus is any less powerful than he ever was, by the way. Infact, the Forgotten Realms incarnation of him, at least, is more powerful than ever, comparatively speaking, being as he is, now a Greater Deity. >_>

well I planned on them fighting Orcus anyway so that works out. they're also going to fight demogorgon.

wow. one primeval being and two demon lords. is that a record in a 4th edition campaign?:smallconfused:

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-12, 12:01 PM
-Houserule an epic progression (30+) that eventually empowers your players to face Asmodeus on his own terms in some way, and then give them some kind of plot coupon that explains why they get this treatment and other characters don't (like the last blessing of a now-dead deity, or something). Mechanically quite difficult.

As I understand it, Deities, (who do seem to scratch level 35 comfortably) are indeed beyond all but the most powerfull of PC's. This is intentional, of course.

HOWEVER, a level 30 party, played well, and having taking the proper precautions, are expected to be able to take on an encounter than includes such high level creatures. (+5 levels is, after all, the suggested difficulty of a particularly tricky 'Boss Monster'. How else would you expect a God, really?)
You should not need to go into house-ruled, 30+ level territory.

Coidzor
2009-07-12, 12:11 PM
Do not be so quick to underestimate the power of the bravado of the players. The DM is only one entity after all. Usually. Asmodeus is only as smart as the DM given sufficient time to plan things in advance and anticipate how the players might go off the rails in order to react.

And really, players can always find ways to do something so stupid it works. It's probably been codified as some kind of axiom by now...

D_Lord
2009-07-12, 12:19 PM
I can think of one way. Now I don't know if they went to 4th ed. but the whole party would have to turn really evil for it to work. Get an Elder Evil. These things are nasty. In 4th edition Asmodeus wouldn't even be able to hurt some of them. and all of them are unseen to the gods. These are like the only thing that aren't part of his big plans due to these things are like build, created, or are; to destroy whole planes, and gods and he can't see what they are doing or their plans. But then again they are very, very, very very Evil. But it's a idea.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-12, 12:44 PM
I can think of one way. Now I don't know if they went to 4th ed. but the whole party would have to turn really evil for it to work. Get an Elder Evil. These things are nasty. In 4th edition Asmodeus wouldn't even be able to hurt some of them. and all of them are unseen to the gods. These are like the only thing that aren't part of his big plans due to these things are like build, created, or are; to destroy whole planes, and gods and he can't see what they are doing or their plans. But then again they are very, very, very very Evil. But it's a idea.

I'm not so sure about that. I can't scratch up much on them, but the preview excerpts I found list one Elder Evil as having a cr 23 aspect, and another as barely being cr20 itself.

I'm sure there are some powerful ones in there, but if the same edition lists asmodeus as a cr 27, then, weeell. It doesn't sound like a forgone conclusion to me, really, in any edition.

Also, given that they do not yet exist in 4th edition, saying whether or not asmodeus would be able to hurt them is rather on the side of pure guesswork. :)

Besides, if they're worse than Asmodeus and more destructive, why would the pc's try and ally with them, really?

cfalcon
2009-07-12, 12:46 PM
In your games, is there anything gave the good gods the ability to be good gods? Did they leave any powerful symbols, remnants, etc? Maybe those could be used to weaken him, force him to manifest, etc.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-12, 12:49 PM
I really don't see where in the 4th edition Lore there is any suggestion that Asmodeus is any less powerful than he ever was, by the way. Infact, the Forgotten Realms incarnation of him, at least, is more powerful than ever, comparatively speaking, being as he is, now a Greater Deity. >_>That's why. It's a step down for him.

Mando Knight
2009-07-12, 12:58 PM
That's why. It's a step down for him.

Not really, since he still has power over the Nine Hells. His goal in 3.5's FR was to restore his divinity. In 4E, he's eaten an exarch of Mystra to regain divinity, and has since expanded his power to rival that of Torm (the only remaining Greater God of the former Triad) and Kelemvor.

hamishspence
2009-07-12, 01:21 PM
Was he ever divine? In 3.0 Manual of the Planes it raises the possibility that he was "a fallen Greater Deity from Celestia" but isn't very clear. Secondary possibility is that he is even older- a "fundamental force of evil pulling the multiverse into its present form"

In Fiendish Codex 2, it stresses he was an angel who was booted out of heaven and given the job of supervising the punishment of evil souls- at the same time.

So his origin is a little mysterious.

In 4th ed core, he ascended to divinity by killing his boss, and because of this, him and all his followers were banished to his boss's ruined domain.

In 4th ed Realms, Asmodeus ascended to divinity by killing Azuth, but its not clear if he was divine before this, and lost divinity at some point in the distant past.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-12, 01:23 PM
That's why. It's a step down for him.

That's what you implied before. Didn't make sense then, either. :P

Mewtarthio
2009-07-12, 01:39 PM
I can think of one way. Now I don't know if they went to 4th ed. but the whole party would have to turn really evil for it to work. Get an Elder Evil. These things are nasty. In 4th edition Asmodeus wouldn't even be able to hurt some of them. and all of them are unseen to the gods. These are like the only thing that aren't part of his big plans due to these things are like build, created, or are; to destroy whole planes, and gods and he can't see what they are doing or their plans. But then again they are very, very, very very Evil. But it's a idea.

I believe I suggested something similar in the Pact Primeval thread. Something from the Far Realms would be totally unpredictable to Asmodeus. It'd also be totally unpredictable to the players, unfortunately, but if they manage to get something really nasty running around, it could serve as an excellent distraction.

Indon
2009-07-12, 04:27 PM
As I understand it, Deities, (who do seem to scratch level 35 comfortably) are indeed beyond all but the most powerfull of PC's. This is intentional, of course.

HOWEVER, a level 30 party, played well, and having taking the proper precautions, are expected to be able to take on an encounter than includes such high level creatures. (+5 levels is, after all, the suggested difficulty of a particularly tricky 'Boss Monster'. How else would you expect a God, really?)
You should not need to go into house-ruled, 30+ level territory.

I'm assuming, based on all the fanboying of him in various threads, that Asmodeus would Batman the heroes into a much greater-CR encounter than you'd end up facing against another comparable deity.

Mando Knight
2009-07-12, 04:33 PM
I'm assuming, based on all the fanboying of him in various threads, that Asmodeus would Batman the heroes into a much greater-CR encounter than you'd end up facing against another comparable deity.

Not much more than Tiamat, who carries around an Ancient Red as a consort, or Vecna, who has 34-ish Int and Wis, and probably could break out a couple of demiliches or something...

Arcane Copycat
2009-07-12, 04:38 PM
The cheapest way to take out a deity?

Step 1: Get an Elf, level 30.
Step 2: Give him a +6 Distance Greatbow and boots of speed.
Step 3: Start with 20 Dex, get demigod for a final total of 30 Dex
Step 4: Far Shot, Bow Mastery, Weapon Expertise (Bow), Weapon Focus (Bow), Distant Shot, Fleet-Footed, Running Shot, Fast Runner and Lethal Hunter (for the hell of it)

Now you have 65 squares of range, 9 squares of movement, 11 on a run without taking any penalties to ranged attacks, not even for distance.

Sit back at said 65 squares away, keeping well the hell out of range of anything.

Tiamat: Even Double-Move Action Point Chromatic Breath falls 5 squares short of hitting you. Then it has to recharge, giving you time to get the hell out of dodge again.

Vecna: Doesn't have the range to take this on. Teleport is 10, and that's the fastest he can go, and his best range is Area Burst 3 within 20


Cheesy as I can do it at hour 35 awake. I'm pretty sure you can get more move out of it for extra safety, but that might be redundant.

Mando Knight
2009-07-12, 04:46 PM
Tiamat: Even Double-Move Action Point Chromatic Breath falls 5 squares short of hitting you. Then it has to recharge, giving you time to get the hell out of dodge again.

Tiamat flies 15 squares on a move action. She gets 5 Standard Actions (and 5 Minor Actions) per round. She can spend four moving 60 squares, and not have to spend her Action Point to kick your rear. She can go faster than anyone else, and she will if she needs to. And then there's the fact that she's got other powers to mess you up while she's waiting for her Chromatic breath to recharge: 4 Close Blast 5 Breath Weapons, a Range 20 Breath Weapon, a Close Blast 5 blinding (save ends) at-will, a Domination tail sting, and the Close Burst 20 Frightful Majesty.

D_Lord
2009-07-12, 04:49 PM
I'm not so sure about that. I can't scratch up much on them, but the preview excerpts I found list one Elder Evil as having a cr 23 aspect, and another as barely being cr20 itself.

I'm sure there are some powerful ones in there, but if the same edition lists asmodeus as a cr 27, then, weeell. It doesn't sound like a forgone conclusion to me, really, in any edition.

Also, given that they do not yet exist in 4th edition, saying whether or not asmodeus would be able to hurt them is rather on the side of pure guesswork. :)

Besides, if they're worse than Asmodeus and more destructive, why would the pc's try and ally with them, really?

Asmodeus is a god in 4th edition. Some of them have the malefic properties of Impervious to the Divine. That means he can't do anything to them. Alter Realty useless, his spells useless. He can't do anything vs some Elder Evils, and they can most certainly do things to him.

Arcane Copycat
2009-07-12, 04:50 PM
How I read it is that she gets 5 standard, 5 minor, 1 move. Sure she could trade down standards to move, giving her 60 plus a standard, which I forgot because I'm tired damn you. Still, chances are there's 4 other ridiculously overpowered people tying her down and helping you out on this.

Skorj
2009-07-12, 04:50 PM
The one true Asmodeus has 199hp, AC -7, 90% MR, strong psionics, a basket of SoL abilities usable at will, powerful gaze attack, and a rod that both acts as a rod of absorption and can fire his choice of dragon breath weapon upon command. You youngins with your "positive is good" AC cannot understand the true power of Asmodeus. :smallbiggrin:

His AD&D description gave him max STR, as well as mental stats "most handsome of all devils as well as being the strongest and most cunning".

Yakk
2009-07-12, 04:54 PM
Dead God, Living God, Blood of Innocence.
Blessing of Gold, Blessing of Silver, Blessing of Steel.
Sword that Shields, Shield that Slays, Mortal that Cannot Die.
Words of Ignorance, Words of Knowledge, Words of Silence.
Greatest Enemy, Greatest Hope, Greatest Fear.
Seed of a Mountain, Heart of Fire, Walk of Water.
Bell, Book, Candle.

Coidzor
2009-07-12, 05:07 PM
Not much more than Tiamat, who carries around an Ancient Red as a consort, or Vecna, who has 34-ish Int and Wis, and probably could break out a couple of demiliches or something...

a couple of demiliches? No. A demilich swarm? No. A demilich storm. :smallamused:

Alteran
2009-07-12, 05:18 PM
a couple of demiliches? No. A demilich swarm? No. A demilich storm. :smallamused:

Oh, it's raining cats and dogs and...horrific undead spellcasting skulls?

Coidzor
2009-07-12, 05:21 PM
Oh, it's raining cats and dogs and...horrific undead spellcasting skulls?

If you were fluffed up as one of the first liches ever who ascended to become the god of secrets, wouldn't you have a thematically appropriate doomsday scenario? And have slipped some things into the lichifying process available in certain libraries or other tomes such that the liches are beholden to you in some way...

But yeah, from what I can see, the consensus seems to be that the most basic requirement of assaulting Asmodeus is to actually get to the point of facing him. So that's your first responsibility as the DM, I guess, determining what they need to do in order to gain access to such a fight.

Alteran
2009-07-12, 05:24 PM
If you were fluffed up as one of the first liches ever who ascended to become the god of secrets, wouldn't you have a thematically appropriate doomsday scenario? And have slipped some things into the lichifying process available in certain libraries or other tomes such that the liches are beholden to you in some way...

Certainly, but I'm not sure if that's the most appropriate doomsday scenario. I'd think he can just send out a pulse of necrotic energy that will animate anything it kills as a Dread Wraith (or something) under his control. Then they'll spread doomsday, making more servants as they go. Still, it's hard to top the cool-factor of of a Demilich Storm.

Mando Knight
2009-07-12, 05:27 PM
How I read it is that she gets 5 standard, 5 minor, 1 move. Sure she could trade down standards to move, giving her 60 plus a standard, which I forgot because I'm tired damn you. Still, chances are there's 4 other ridiculously overpowered people tying her down and helping you out on this.

In which case they get disabled by a bunch of her (save ends) effects right before she takes off again at her divinely ridiculous speed to kill you. Note that she can fly around pretty much everything.

Coidzor
2009-07-12, 05:37 PM
^: Unless she's in an area where flight isn't so ideal, but then, archery wouldn't be either. Though having her trapped in an adamantine arena with hallways long enough that she couldn't breathe down them positioned so as to give a large field of fire for each cannon/archer in 'em... Then again, if you're putting Tiamat into a box you've already won.


Certainly, but I'm not sure if that's the most appropriate doomsday scenario. I'd think he can just send out a pulse of necrotic energy that will animate anything it kills as a Dread Wraith (or something) under his control. Then they'll spread doomsday, making more servants as they go. Still, it's hard to top the cool-factor of of a Demilich Storm.

And really, if you're having to do a ragnarok anyway, why not do both? :smallbiggrin:

Does the Far Realm exist in 4th Edition?

If so, opening up a largish and relatively stable hole to the Far Realm in the 9 hells or to cut off Nessus from the rest of the nine hells would probably provide an excellent distraction for all of those pit fiend legions and other devils... Might even agitate Asmodeus enough that he'd feel it necessary to incorporate to oversee sealing it up and destroying any god-killing monstrosities before they decide to eat him personally.

JonestheSpy
2009-07-12, 05:39 PM
I hear that dropping a ring in a volcano works out pretty well....

Seriously with the designers' adoption of the idea that Asmodeus pretty much = the Judeo/Christian Satan, without a Judeo/Christian deity to balance him out, it just hands the Bad Guys all the cards. And really, he idea of any mortals defeating him forever is just silly, unless they're weighted down if piles of insanely powerful cheesey aritfacts.



The one true Asmodeus has 199hp, AC -7, 90% MR, strong psionics, a basket of SoL abilities usable at will, powerful gaze attack, and a rod that both acts as a rod of absorption and can fire his choice of dragon breath weapon upon command. You youngins with your "positive is good" AC cannot understand the true power of Asmodeus. :smallbiggrin:

His AD&D description gave him max STR, as well as mental stats "most handsome of all devils as well as being the strongest and most cunning".

I really think the archdevils and demon princes work better on this scale, as immensely powerful evil beings, and no one of them being ridiculously more powerful than all the rest.

Coidzor
2009-07-12, 05:41 PM
I really think the archdevils and demon princes work better on this scale, as immensely powerful evil beings, and no one of them being ridiculously more powerful than all the rest.

That would better explain the whole air of Détente that pervades the fiends anyway... Well, not Détente...per se... hmm. Something having to do with that period though.

Mando Knight
2009-07-12, 05:42 PM
^: Unless she's in an area where flight isn't so ideal, but then, archery wouldn't be either. Though having her trapped in an adamantine arena with hallways long enough that she couldn't breathe down them positioned so as to give a large field of fire for each cannon/archer in 'em... Then again, if you're putting Tiamat into a box you've already won.

And if she can see out of the box, she's just messing with you. (teleport 5)

...And, she's the patron deity of the most annoyingly overpowered Evil creatures on the Prime Material. She can probably break through adamantine like it's paper.

Maerok
2009-07-12, 05:57 PM
That's really insulting Asmodeus. Orcus is just a demon prince. Asmodeus is the supreme lord of devils, who took on all the dukes of the 9 hells and won.

Wotc doesn't publish his stats because he's much more than a diety, he's the kind of guy who eat dieties for breaksfast. You would need to crush the rest of the 9 hells just to have a shot at him. Tiamat, supreme ruler of evil dragons, is his guard dog.

A 3rd party publisher once done him for 3.X rules, and he was CR 81. By 4e standards, that amounts to around level 122. Good luck defeating that.


Asmodeus outsmarted the gods and lasted as long as he did without divine power in 3rd edition.

Anything a mortal DM could pull off would just be a disservice.

tyckspoon
2009-07-12, 06:01 PM
And really, he idea of any mortals defeating him forever is just silly, unless they're weighted down if piles of insanely powerful cheesey aritfacts.


This is more or less the definition of an Epic character in both 3.5 and 4E D&D. It's especially true of level 29-30 characters in 4E, who are supposed to be pursuing the kinds of goals that will forever leave their mark on the campaign world (and may or may not make themselves/their names immortal as well.) I really don't see "you'd need ZOMG magic tools to pull it off" as a major objection to the concept, given that the first thing any right-thinking adventurer is going to do is start questing for said tools. Doubly so if the GM has handed the party this goal as one of/the major plotline, since then you can be fairly certain the necessary tools actually do exist or can be fashioned.

I kind of like the idea of creating a level 31+ progression, 'tho. Call it the Deific tier, especially appropriate if one or all of the party end up taking the Demigod Destiny (it's not unlikely that at least one of the party will take it into his head to become a new god for the world, after all.)

brujon
2009-07-12, 06:01 PM
Dude... Just get the Saint of Killers to hell, then he'll do it for you =]

But now, really... If you refluff the CR 81 asmodeus to 4th ed it'll be impossible... Your best bet as someone said is to rework Orcus to match Asmodeus fluff and then have an epic quest to gather some artifact that can weaken him long enough for them to finish him off. Maybe something a-la greek mithology when you go searching for his thread of life and then severing it, so he temporalily ceases to be a deity and can be killed for real? Or maybe something like killing off another god and seizing his divinity and using that newfound power to challenge and beat him?

But really, the only way you can kill him is making him leave Nessus. He has too much of a power there, he can summon everything and everyone and just gangbang you dead. The elder evil idea is good. =]

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-12, 07:23 PM
Asmodeus is a god in 4th edition. Some of them have the malefic properties of Impervious to the Divine. That means he can't do anything to them. Alter Realty useless, his spells useless. He can't do anything vs some Elder Evils, and they can most certainly do things to him.

You can't really directly translate such things (which are intended to balance with the rest of 3.5), though. If they ever do get translated officially, I doubt they'd come packing any automatic 'God-Proofing'*.
Fluff-wise, they are resistant to, or particularly potent against Gods, perhaps, sure. I can live with that. You know what? I'm guessing Asmodeus can, too, when he has his legions tear them apart, never even getting his hands dirty. Or simply sets up some 'Adventuring Heroes' to 'Save the World' by ending their far-realm dwelling Evil.

Besides, the concept of some splat-book critters having blanket immunity to a group of creatures or entities as the only way to make them formiddable against them? Not impressive. All Asmodeus has to do is batman up himself some way to strip them of this property, and it's business as usual, even if they arrive in Nessus.

He didn't LOSE anything when he became a God, only gained. So really, anything he could do before, he can do now. Only more-so.

I really wouldn't bother modelling Asmodeus on Orcus, by the way. Orcus is, as far as above-level-cap horrors go, small change. Demogorogon beats him by a level, Tiamat by two. I'd expect Asmodeus to be at least her equal, really.

*To be perfectly honest, given the apparently derivative nature of the Elder Evils, I'd be surprised to ever see them turn up officially in 4th ed, really. Not without some hefty changes.

D_Lord
2009-07-12, 07:37 PM
You can't really directly translate such things (which are intended to balance with the rest of 3.5), though. If they ever do get translated officially, I doubt they'd come packing any automatic 'God-Proofing'*.
Fluff-wise, they are resistant to, or particularly potent against Gods, perhaps, sure. I can live with that. You know what? I'm guessing Asmodeus can, too, when he has his legions tear them apart, never even getting his hands dirty. Or simply sets up some 'Adventuring Heroes' to 'Save the World' by ending their far-realm dwelling Evil.

Besides, the concept of some splat-book critters having blanket immunity to a group of creatures or entities as the only way to make them formiddable against them? Not impressive. All Asmodeus has to do is batman up himself some way to strip them of this property, and it's business as usual, even if they arrive in Nessus.

He didn't LOSE anything when he became a God, only gained. So really, anything he could do before, he can do now. Only more-so.



Umm they for the most part petty god proof, some more then others. One of them just a piece of it's mind has a CR of 25. Asmodeus normal CR is only 27. And that is just a piece of it's mind, put it's body and full mind together and its going to kill every god. And his armys vs it, they aren't going to do more then get destroyed for good while it moves right over them. Don't know if it would be in 4th but hey it's not your canbane world. It's Kyuubi's not yours.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-12, 08:03 PM
Umm they for the most part petty god proof, some more then others. One of them just a piece of it's mind has a CR of 25. Asmodeus normal CR is only 27. And that is just a piece of it's mind, put it's body and full mind together and its going to kill every god. And his armys vs it, they aren't going to do more then get destroyed for good while it moves right over them. Don't know if it would be in 4th but hey it's not your canbane world. It's Kyuubi's not yours.

Yeah yeah. I know. I just think, to sum up;
- The concept behind the 'God Proof' Elder Evils is a bit iffy, and without access to the full thing, what I can find does not suggest that they are that cosmically far in advance of the Gods, or Asmodeus. Just what I can find, mind.
- They are almost universally more Horrific, destructive, and Foul than the standard Evil Gods, especially the relatively lawful and pragmatic Asmodeus. (Definately not the lesser of two evils)
-Some of them might not even be capable of comprehending Mortals, let alone deigning to deal with them. Merely attracting their attention is likely to be catastrophic, such as with one of the two excerpt examples I found, who is out to unmake all reality, utterly. No Exceptions.
- If you COULD get them to do your bidding, it woulldn't really be a matter of the PC's taking on Asmodeus, as much as the PC's unleashing a reality destroying Lovecraftian abomination on his general whereabouts.
- It might, just might lose anyway. ;)
- Kyuubi's world is 4th ed anyway. Or the system he's using is, at any rate.

Mystic Muse
2009-07-12, 09:48 PM
Yeah yeah. I know. I just think, to sum up;
- The concept behind the 'God Proof' Elder Evils is a bit iffy, and without access to the full thing, what I can find does not suggest that they are that cosmically far in advance of the Gods, or Asmodeus. Just what I can find, mind.
- They are almost universally more Horrific, destructive, and Foul than the standard Evil Gods, especially the relatively lawful and pragmatic Asmodeus. (Definately not the lesser of two evils)
-Some of them might not even be capable of comprehending Mortals, let alone deigning to deal with them. Merely attracting their attention is likely to be catastrophic, such as with one of the two excerpt examples I found, who is out to unmake all reality, utterly. No Exceptions.
- If you COULD get them to do your bidding, it woulldn't really be a matter of the PC's taking on Asmodeus, as much as the PC's unleashing a reality destroying Lovecraftian abomination on his general whereabouts.
- It might, just might lose anyway. ;)
- Kyuubi's world is 4th ed anyway. Or the system he's using is, at any rate.

yeah it's 4th edition. whoever said that means I can't use 3.5 stuff though? ;)

an elder evil sounds like it might be a more interesting badguy than demogorgon anyway

Khanderas
2009-07-13, 04:25 AM
Go ahead, fight and kill Asmodeus... or what you THINK is Asmodeus.
It is all part of his master plan... Your very existence was planned and set into motion millennia ago.

Everything you do, or do not do, will further one or several of his Goals, whatever they may be.

Killer Angel
2009-07-13, 04:49 AM
mmm... well, I don't like such high level campaigns, but my personal tastes here don't matter.
So, I think that you can find something on Dicefreaks.
Those guys are really crazy for high levels challenges.
Here's an example for Asmodeus (http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5&start=10).
Sadly for you, the build is for 3d ed., but on their forum, I think you can find help.


Alternatively, your group can hire Him (http://www.chucknorris.com/)... :smallcool:

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-13, 04:57 AM
Did you know that Asmodeus counted to infinity? Twice?

Did you know that Asmodeus died centuries ago and the Grim Reaper is afraid to tell him?

Did you know that if you can see Asmodeus, he can kill you; and if you can't see him, it's already too late?

Did you know that O-Chul is the OotS character of Asmodeus?

You'd think Asmodeus was Lady of Pain or something the way everyone talks about him.

FatR
2009-07-13, 11:49 AM
Your party will kill Asmodeus when it is advantageous for Asmodeus to die.

Seriously, who do you think is smarter? Powergaming munchkins or the being who duped all the gods in existence?
Of course the munchkins. Was there any doubt? And not even dreaded powers of the now-greatest Canon Sue in DnD can stand up to the infinite potential of powergaming.

valadil
2009-07-13, 11:57 AM
To my knowledge Asmodeus hasn't been statted yet. But since it's possible to kill Tiamat or the Demon Princes, I don't see why it should be impossible to kill Asmodeus, who's a relatively "new" god.


Where are gods statted anyway? I'm specifically interested in Tiamat.

Yakk
2009-07-13, 12:07 PM
Tiamat is in MM2 I thought?

If I wanted the campaign to end with killing Asmodeus...

Heroic: Push back the night. By the end of Heroic, you should have a single flickering point of light in a world of darkness.

Paragon: Bringing the light. By the end of Paragon, you have raised a single good deity from the dead. Points of light are blooming in the mortal world. Possibly a barrier is raised between the Mortal world and the evil gods, so they cannot tear the mortal world asunder.

Epic: Ending the threat. The Epic tier is built around collecting the artefacts needed to confront and defeat Asmodeus. You bring good deities back to life with every level or two of adventuring -- and some of them die.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 12:13 PM
Draconomicon. Vecna is in Open Grave. Most of the fiends besides Orcus are in either MM2 or Manual of the Planes.

valadil
2009-07-13, 12:53 PM
Draconomicon. Vecna is in Open Grave. Most of the fiends besides Orcus are in either MM2 or Manual of the Planes.

Correct. Much appreciated.

JMM
2009-07-13, 01:43 PM
{Scrubbed}