Optimizing a Warblade

[Elfin]

I don't have very much experience with warblades- how do I optimize one?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Select manuvers.

[Tempest Fennac]

It depends on how you want to fight. Stone Dragon is generally seen as the weakest School due to mainly focusing on overcoming DR, but some of the Maneuvers and stances which boost your defences could be helpful to you. White Raven is best for games where you have a lot of help in melee, Tiger Claw is great if you're using 2-weapon fighting and Diamond Mind can be great for boosting your chances of making saves and dealing more damage. I'm not sure how to describe Iron Heart, but a couple of those maneuvers are descent for self healing (Iron Heart Surge lets you recover from a negative status condition, for instance).

[Elfin]

hmmm.... stone dragon is definitely weak... although at first level it might be good to get Stone Bones- DR 5 for a round.
I picked up Steel Wind, which grants me two attacks instead of one... but what is the best path for a single-wielder? What stances and maneuvers?

And specifically, which discipline is better, Diamond Mind or Iron Heart?
And even more specific, which of those schools's "ultimate" maneuvers are better- Time Stands Still, which grants you two full attacks, or the Iron Heart one which gives you 100 extra points of damage?

[Saph]

There's no best path. All the schools have good maneuvers. Diamond Mind is great for the single-strike boosters and the save enhancers, Stone Dragon has the Mountain Hammer series for killing stuff that's hard to kill, White Raven has various powerful team-helping effects, Tiger Claw has a good selection of jump-and-kill effects, and Iron Heart is just generally awesome. Pick whichever you like the flavour of the best.


And specifically, which discipline is better, Diamond Mind or Iron Heart?

Neither. They're both excellent. Take maneuvers from both.

- Saph

[Tempest Fennac]

Couldn't you take both DM and IH Maneuvers, Elvenblade? While you wouldn't have as many maneuvers from each school you would at least before versatile when if you focussed on 1 school exclusively (and you wouldn't have enough choice to only get Maneuvers from 1 school anyway).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I don't have very much experience with warblades- how do I optimize one?Play a Warblade? You don't need much more optimization than that. Put a high stat into Str, and another into Con. Arrange the rest to taste, but Dex and Int are usually #3 and 4. Pick a fighting style, and then select maneuvers which fit that style. Choose stances that are useful in differing circumstances(no need for 2 that boost damage, after all), and you'll be good.

That said, you probably want White Raven Tactics, at least one of the 'ignore DR/Hardness' Stone Dragon maneuvers, the save-replace Diamond Mind maneuvers(worth the Concentration skill all by themselves) and depending on your DM, Iron Heart Surge(it's poorly worded and broken, but oh so useful).

[Elfin]

Thanks for all the help... I was going to do Tiger Claw and Iron Heart but Diamond Mind might be better... the Mountain Hammer series looks good... as you can most likely tell I'm not very good at optimizing, so I guess what I'm really asking for is a set out progression- "take Steel Wind and Steely Strike at level 1, then take Absolute Steel as level five, then take Mithral Tornado at level 7, then take..."
or something like that.

[NeoVid]

And specifically, which discipline is better, Diamond Mind or Iron Heart?
And even more specific, which of those schools's "ultimate" maneuvers are better- Time Stands Still, which grants you two full attacks, or the Iron Heart one which gives you 100 extra points of damage?

Time Stands Still can easily do a lot more than 100 damage, but it takes a full round action. The Iron Heart ultimate attack only takes a standard action, so it's got more tactical applications. Take both, and see if you can qualify for a third. The White Raven one is insane, and if I remember right, the Stone Dragon ultimate has no prerequisite, and it's pretty nasty.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Thanks for all the help... I was going to do Tiger Claw and Iron Heart but Diamond Mind might be better... the Mountain Hammer series looks good... as you can most likely tell I'm not very good at optimizing, so I guess what I'm really asking for is a set out progression- "take Steel Wind and Steely Strike at level 1, then take Absolute Steel as level five, then take Mithral Tornado at level 7, then take..."
or something like that.There really isn't one. ToB classes don't really have any bad choices. At their (reasonable)worst, they're better than a blaster Sorc or a non-Hellfire Warlock.

Do you plan to THF, TWF, S&B, or Einhand(listed in order of power)? What's the starting level? What point-buy? Who else is going to be in your party, and how optimized are they? Your race? How many other sources can you draw on? Do you want to multiclass(Fighter 2 is excellent for a Warblade)?

[Elfin]

Ok then... guess I'll specialise in Iron Heart and Diamond mind, with a hint of Stone Dragon. And is it worth it to get some Tiger Claw or not?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Tiger Claw is, I hear, good for TWFing.

[Tempest Fennac]

It won't be otimal if you only want 1 weapon, but some of the Jumping abilities may be useful for utility/dealing more damage (the stance which grants Scent may be useful as well). Whoich race are you planning on using?

[Elfin]

The campaign starts at level one; we used the 5d6 drop 2 roll and I got an 18, 16, 14, 14, 8, 8.

I'm a wild elf, so the best stats are Str18, Con 16, Dex16, Int12, wis8, cha8.

[Saph]

Oh, all right. Here's a simple Warblade build from levels 1 to 6.

Maneuver progression

Level 1: Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Steely Strike
Level 2: Leading the Attack
Level 3: Emerald Razor
Level 4: Mountain Hammer (replaces Steely Strike)
Level 5: White Raven Tactics
Level 6: Iron Heart Surge (replaces Leading the Attack)

Stance progression

Level 1: Punishing Stance
Level 4: Leading the Charge
Level 6: Absolute Steel (from feat)

Feat progression

Level 1: Adaptive Style
Level 3: Power Attack
Level 5 (Bonus): Combat Reflexes
Level 6: Martial Stance

Skills

Max out Concentration and Tumble. Also get 5 ranks in Balance and Jump - they'll help. Beyond that you can branch out into any skills you like.

Equipment

You'll want light armour - studded leather at level 1, a chain shirt at level 2, and a mithral shirt after that. Use a sword and shield at low levels, switch out to a two-handed weapon around level 3-4, and consider getting a reach weapon at level 5 and up.

Explanation

This build uses nothing but PHB and ToB, and focuses on Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and White Raven. You'll have enough of all three at higher levels to qualify for whatever you want.

At low levels Steel Wind will be your mook-killer, while you can use Steely Strike/Emerald Razor plus Power Attack to kill bigger threats. Make sure to keep Moment of Perfect Mind handy if you're fighting spellcasters, and talk with your DM about the exact interpretation of White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge.

Adaptive Style lets you switch maneuvers in-combat, so use it whenever you have a spare round. If you're playing Human and have an extra feat, use it to get Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) at level 1. It boosts your low-level survivability enormously and lets you grab Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) at level 6.

I played this build in a low-level campaign a while ago. It was very effective.

- Saph

[Elfin]

Cool, thanks for the help, although wouldn't it be more effective to get Sapphire Nightmare Blade instead of Moment of Perfect Mind? How about Stone Bones?

Also, my character is at the moment a bit of a loner, so maybe White RAven wouldn't be his style... but again, thanks for the help.

[Cedrass]

Tiger Claw has some maneuvers that are good even if you're not TWF, but they are rare, if you do want one maneuver from that Discipline, get the requirement and replace the maneuvers you had to take as soon as you can. That way you still get the desired maneuver.

If there's an other melee character in your group, I recommend taking at least 2 or 3 White Raven maneuver, especially the ones that allow you to charge the same guy without bothering each other. I can't name any on the top of my head tho (Away from book...)

Iron Heart is a must have (There's so many awesome defense maneuvers it's not even funny).

I'll give a couple of example as soon as I can get my book (if no one ninjas me that is)

Edit: Oh wow, Saph already Ninja'd me...

[Saph]

What's your Wisdom? 8? That means your Will save at first level is -1, right? Your first-level Concentration skill is +7. Trust me, you want Moment of Perfect Mind.

If you're not so keen on White Raven, swap out the maneuvers for Stone Dragon or Tiger Claw. They're good too.

- Saph

[Elfin]

Thanks Saph. It really helps.
Yea, I think that that's a great progression; I'm feeling better about my character already. :smallbiggrin:

[Learnedguy]

Personally, I've always thought that Tiger's Claw is brilliant for uberchargers. Pouncing Charge and a boost that gives me additional attacks?! Yes please!

[Twilight Jack]

Behold the Ballad of Larien Trevallian:

OoC, he was nicknamed "Chainsaw Face." The players of the party's wizard and druid complained that he was overpowered. Essentially, he was a Warblade focused on Iron Heart and Diamond Mind, with other disciplines for occasional flavor. After he reached 6th level, he took a swordsage level so that he could use the Concentration checks to replace his saves without infringing on his ability to whoop that ass.

Other than that, he just focused in on Wall of Blades and Insightful Strike. In a 8th level game, he just about owned everything he came across (and he came across everything; in their face).

Anyhow, it's not difficult to get a Warblade doing what you want. Pick good maneuvers and spam them to hell.

[Cedrass]

Anyhow, it's not difficult to get a Warblade doing what you want. Pick good maneuvers and spam them to hell.

This. And I'll add: It may or may not be useful, but I know I did this mistake when I played a ToB class. Do not think as maneuvers as spells or anything else from D&D 3.5! Never forget that most of the time you can use a Boost, change your Stance, and use a Strike, all in the same round. Also, when you reach level 4, replace your maneuvers with higher level ones!

It's two mistakes I did with my character, I've only had the book for 2 weeks when I played him, and he sucked.

[Teron]

Time Stands Still can easily do a lot more than 100 damage, but it takes a full round action. The Iron Heart ultimate attack only takes a standard action, so it's got more tactical applications. Take both, and see if you can qualify for a third. The White Raven one is insane, and if I remember right, the Stone Dragon ultimate has no prerequisite, and it's pretty nasty.
Time Stands Still gets a lot better if you have the Diamond Mind boost that lets you take an extra move action.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, with the exception of a couple strikes and a couple boosts, a goodly portion of Tiger Claw is excelent for a 2hander as well. You have stuff at low levels like Sudden Leap which benefit both, and most of the maneuvers that require jumping at or over your opponent are single hit strikes. The strikes that make your opponent more vulnerable are also rather useful. Pouncing Charge is good for anyone.

Just saying...don't discount Tiger Claw just because you aren't TWFing...there is still some quality stuff in there.

[T.G. Oskar]

Never forget that most of the time you can use a Boost or change your Stance, and use a Strike, all in the same round.

Fixed. As far as I recall, changing a Stance or using a Boost are considered swift actions, those you can only do once per turn. But yeah, you can most of the time change your stance if you consider it necessary while attempting to refresh maneuvers (mostly as a full-round action if Swordsage or having Adaptive Style), then unleash Strike + Boost on next round.

Sapphire Nightmare (IIRC, that's the one that doubles your damage, right?) is best taken as a replacement for another tactic you don't use, but only if you have an insane way to increase your damage potential. Usually, it's perfect with Power Attack since the wording of the maneuver doesn't preclude enhancing non-weapon damage (PA, Sneak, Flame/Frost/Shock/Corrosive/Thundering damage, et als) Being a standard action, you need to already deal lots of damage with a single attack to make the latter Nightmare Blade maneuvers efficient.

Which is why Emerald Razor was mentioned. You can waste as much as you can from your BAB, and the attack will still hit pretty well because it turns into a touch attack. I'd say, find ways to deny your enemies' Dexterity bonus to AC, and you won't have to worry about missing at all.

And yeah. Tiger Claw is excellent for either THF or TWF, depending on the focus. Most people instantly say TWF because of the Mongoose boosts (grant extra attacks with two weapons instead of one) and the Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (which deals more damage the more strikes you get, which works usually nice with TWF). THF, being mostly a build that prizes Strength, benefits brutally from the Leap maneuvers (the ones that increase damage depending on your Jump check), plus a really insane Strength check makes the 9th level TC maneuver (Feral Death Blow) a comparable maneuver to any save-or-suck. In either case, it's one of the few save or die moves that a martial adept can do.

As for 9th level maneuvers from Diamond Mind or Iron Heart, I'd say TSS is the clear winner, but it benefits best multiple strikes than single strikes. Having two routines of full attacks is excellent, but unless you have things such as Snap Kick (which grants pretty much always an extra unarmed attack), and Haste-like extra attacks, it loses quite a bit. Moment of Perfect Clarity is best for when you can already dish several amounts of damage in a single blow (like, when you have a Brilliant Energy weapon plus you're invisible, have a 2H weapon, are enlarged, and just happened to add a load to Power Attack, plus probably initiated a Boost that adds further damage), since it allows you to move and attack at the same time: note, it only adds damage ONCE. Which is why it doesn't seem that useful when compared to TSS or Mountain Tombstone (2d6 Con damage, every other turn, so as long as you stay on the ground!? Sweet!), or even War Master's Charge (aka, the dream of Leadership builds).

Also, I've seen that you're a Wild Elf. Considering the Eternal Blade prestige class? It's pretty effective, no matter which build you get, even though you miss a bit of Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw maneuvers: on the other side, you gain equally effective Devoted Spirit maneuvers, free Knowledge (any) ranks on limited Knowledges (which makes Knowledge Devotion a pretty move), a floating maneuver per day (Eternal Guidance; just DON'T take the favored enemy-like option because it mostly sucks), and the capstone ability (Island on Time; basically a free Greater Celerity as a boost), plus pseudo-boosts for when you don't know what to do with that swift action. The problem is mostly that you'll have so many options with your swift actions, you'll be lacking a bit on those.

[Dhavaer]

Sapphire Nightmare (IIRC, that's the one that doubles your damage, right?)

No, Ruby Nightmare Blade doubles your damage. Sapphire Nightmare Blade hits as if they're flat-footed and does +1d6 damage, and Diamond Nightmare Blade does quadruple damage.

[Thrawn183]

Time Stands Still is great if you do a lot of damage per hit.

Now if you're a gnome with a rapier doing a 1d4+5 damage... adding on 100 is really awesome.

[Eldariel]

Personally, I've always thought that Tiger's Claw is brilliant for uberchargers. Pouncing Charge and a boost that gives me additional attacks?! Yes please!

Let's stop misusing the term "übercharger", ok? It refers to this (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-105223). Ultimately superceded by this (http://web.archive.org/web/20080214233419/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=401662). But yeah, if you want to talk about a Charger, talk about Charger. If you wanna talk about übercharger, talk about übercharger.

That said, yeah, Tiger Claw is a very decent option for Chargers. However, there's a better option: Dip that Barbarian-level for Pounce, and go Diamond Mind. Then you end up with this awesome combination of Bounding Assault (two move actions followed by charge-attack; in other words, all moving restrictions are gone) + Pounce.

White Raven charges also do great stuff. The extra attacks are great though, not question there. Frankly, they're some of the best boosts in the book. But ya, Diamond Mind works slightly better for charger types because Nightmare Blade-line maneuvers really make up for not being able to charge (multiplying your insane damage with one hit & concentration-check) and Bounding Assault ensures you can charge when you want to.


EDIT: Pointed the second link to the correct direction.

[Cedrass]

Fixed. As far as I recall, changing a Stance or using a Boost are considered swift actions, those you can only do once per turn. But yeah, you can most of the time change your stance if you consider it necessary while attempting to refresh maneuvers (mostly as a full-round action if Swordsage or having Adaptive Style), then unleash Strike + Boost on next round.

That'll teach me to go too fast...

[WeeFreeMen]

Select manuvers.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHA

:smallannoyed:

Second ;)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thanks for all the help... I was going to do Tiger Claw and Iron Heart but Diamond Mind might be better... the Mountain Hammer series looks good... as you can most likely tell I'm not very good at optimizing, so I guess what I'm really asking for is a set out progression- "take Steel Wind and Steely Strike at level 1, then take Absolute Steel as level five, then take Mithral Tornado at level 7, then take..."
or something like that.


My suggestion:

Stone Power + Shards of Granite is VERY good for bypassing opponent DR, which can get more and more annoying as you fight higher CR critters. Also, at high-end, Tombstone Strike = 2d6 CON damage. Most certainly an OUCH no matter what you are, unless you are immune to Con damage.

Tiger Claw has very stupid damage output potential. Pouncing Strike + Rabid Mongoose = first-round WTFPWN on just about YES. Even moreso if you combine with Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack.

Diamond Mind is good for replacing your Will save with a Concentration check, and a few combat options like making it a touch attack, or a flat-footed attack, then much later on, Time Stands Still for two full-round attacks.

Iron Heart is good for damage, and also defense. Iron Heart Surge is a must-have.

White Raven is more centered on being a group-player. If you have a Rogue in the party, you might want to consider the feat Clarion Call to make a flat DC20 Intimidate check to make an opponent Flanked for combat to massively increase his damage output.