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Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 01:40 AM
Can anyone give me some tips/help in building a maxed out optimised fighter who uses the following tactics:

Trip
Use free attack from trip to steal weapon.
Use AoO against unarmed foe to kill them with their own weapon.

Within 9 levels if possible.

No spellcasting abilties, no magic items.
VoP included.

There are reasons for this. ;)

See a more recent attempt I made for a game here in my sig, Epemet.
Trying to see how far I can take the whole trip/disarm (drain for charges if magic weapon) thing.

lvl 1 fighter
2009-07-12, 01:51 AM
This is the slickest trip build I've seen. Fighter 20 - and it's done with style.

6 hits to 1: Jack B. Quick (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=646185)

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 02:03 AM
Cool Build but not quite. ;)

Talic
2009-07-12, 02:06 AM
Str is essential. It's the basis for Offensive Tripping, and disarming.

So let's start with the obvious. Trippers work best with reach. So let's start with Half Ogre. LA +2, High Strength, Reach. Int Penalty hurts, but not insurmountable.

My thought is: Half Ogre.

PsyWar 4 / Fighter 3

Feats:
1: Combat Expertise
1: Practiced Manifester (Psywar Bonus)
2: Improved Disarm (Psywar Bonus)
3: Improved Trip
3: Improved Unarmed Strike (Fighter Bonus)
4: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (Fighter Bonus)
6: ***Open***

For PsyWar, make sure you have the Expansion power. You'll be Manifester level 8, so you can go up 2 sizes, or make it a swift action, whichever is more advantageous at the moment. (Flaws can be used for Sacred Vow/VoP)

Put a 15 Strength base, and it goes up to 21. Level 4 boost makes it 22, and you have plenty of stattage for getting the Int decent. You have a 10 foot base reach; when you enlarge, it gets better.

From there, for tripping, you'll either be large, huge, or Gargantuan. That's +4, +8, or +12 to the check for size. Final mods after str (not counting VOP) +14, +19, +24 (these are straight strength checks, btw, no BAB for the opponent) to trip, and -4 for Disarm (unarmed strikes are light weapons), but you get the weapon if you disarm.

It's MAD, as you need Str, Int, and Wis, but it's still solid, if you don't put a stellar score in Str.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 02:30 AM
You could us the Generic Expert/Warrior and drop the Practised Manifester entirely.

Vop (get using Flaws) would give you stat increases as well as all the other bonuses which makes up for the MAD.

Q: Is it required to take Improved Unarmed Strike for any reason or did you just find it to be cool?

Talic
2009-07-12, 02:37 AM
Practiced Manifester + Psywar 4 gives you Psywar 7, which gives you the expansion power, augmented for size, swift action, or extended duration, at your option. (this is needed, as Enlarge Person doesn't work on you) It also gives you bonus feats, and 2nd level Psywar powers. I don't consider this casting, as Psywar is pretty much mostly passive self buffing abilities.

Unarmed Strike was so that you could disarm while unarmed. If you do so, you get the weapon in your hand. If you don't, the weapon ends up on the ground, and you'd need a move action to pick it up.

If you don't mind the additional action/mobility cost, go EWP Spiked Chain and Weapon Focus with the same. It'll translate to a bonus to disarm, extra reach, and if you can eventually get it adamantine, you'll get an additional sunder option.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 02:41 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm

No the Improved Unarmed Combat feat actually makes no difference to that. :P
Because of the Improved Disarm feat you don't provoke AoO for Disarming no matter what "weapon" you use, and the only requirement for ending up with the weapon is that you use disarm while unarmed.

Here is a Question: If spellfire is a weapon of sorts, and you can take Weapon focus etc. for it. then can you use it to disarm? Say expend one charge and blast weapons out of hands with fire?

Dixieboy
2009-07-12, 02:50 AM
Use AoO against unarmed foe to kill them with their own weapon.


"Stop hitting yourself"?

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 05:17 AM
"Stop hitting yourself"?

Would only work if I had ripped their arm off as well. lol.

I had insipiration earlier.

Wolf totem gives trip attack for free at level 2. Is there any way to gain disarm easily at low levels?
If so I need not even bother with Combat Expertise. Combat Reflexes is the only other basic fighter-type feat that may be useful.

Talic
2009-07-12, 05:20 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm

No the Improved Unarmed Combat feat actually makes no difference to that. :P
Because of the Improved Disarm feat you don't provoke AoO for Disarming no matter what "weapon" you use, and the only requirement for ending up with the weapon is that you use disarm while unarmed.

Here is a Question: If spellfire is a weapon of sorts, and you can take Weapon focus etc. for it. then can you use it to disarm? Say expend one charge and blast weapons out of hands with fire?

Ranged weapons typically cannot be used to disarm.

And you're right. The Disarm action will not provoke.

However, the making an attack with an unarmed strike will (depending on interpretation). It can be interpreted both ways, and you don't want it to go against you. Still, if you're going against creatures with less reach than you, it won't much matter anyway. Hit em from outside reach.

Imp unarmed strike would allow you to also grab improved grapple, which would further round out your Melee CC arsenal. Combine that with Stand Still later on, and you've got the makings for a pretty effective controller.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 05:32 AM
Well it is all meaningless given that the idea is to trip them first.
If the trip works then they cannot AoO me. If it fails I have nothing else to do.

Improved Trip and Improved Disarm say thet you never give AoO while Tripping or Disarming respectively. They are not unarmed strikes that deal damage.
However I could "arm" myself with Spellfire which can also be used a melee weapon if desired, therefore rending the entire discussion moot.

So that isn't hard to get around.

Also I am sure there is a Ranged Disarm feat.. CW maybe?

I don't want to control.. I want to be able to steal magic weapons so I can drain all of the charges from it and hit them with spellfire. lol.
Though control can be handy.

This is the current proto-type I was going with in a current game.
Just trying to improve on it a little if possible:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=138749

Below is the planned next 8 levels:


Level 12: Spellfire Channeler 7
Level 12: Pure Soul
Vow: Sanctify Martial Strike
+1 WIS
+1 Deflection
Level 13: Spellfire Channeler 8
+1 to all saves
Resist 5, All energy
Level 14: Spellfire Channeler 9
Hellbred: Devil's Aura
Vow: Touch of Golden Ice
+1 Weapon enchant
Level 15: Spellfire Channeler 10
Level 15: True Believer
+2 STR
+2 DEX
+2 CON
DR X/EVIL
Level 16: Soldier of Light 1
Vow: Exalted turning
+1 WIS
+1 Natural Armor
Level 17: Soldier of Light 2
+1 to all saves
+1 Weapon enchant
Level 18: Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine 1
Level 18: Power Attack
Vow: Ranged Smite Evil
+1 Deflection
Level 19: Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine 2
+2 STR
+2 DEX
+2 CON
+2 CHA
Level 20: Hell Reaver 1
Vow: Gift of Grace
+1 WIS
+1 Weapon enchant
DR 10/EVIL
Resistance becomes 15

Talic
2009-07-12, 06:07 AM
Well it is all meaningless given that the idea is to trip them first.
If the trip works then they cannot AoO me. If it fails I have nothing else to do.Incorrect. You are not flatfooted while prone. You do not lose your threatened zones or the ability to attack. You take penalties, but you may still take AoO's.

Improved Trip and Improved Disarm say thet you never give AoO while Tripping or Disarming respectively. They are not unarmed strikes that deal damage.But they are unarmed strikes. Unarmed Touch attacks use all bonuses and penalties that unarmed strikes provide, unless stated otherwise. Including provoking. This is supported by the fact that you can choose to use a different weapon for trip attacks, or disarm attacks. As stated, it can be ruled both ways.


However I could "arm" myself with Spellfire which can also be used a melee weapon if desired, therefore rending the entire discussion moot.That's valid, if a bit... convoluted.


So that isn't hard to get around.

Also I am sure there is a Ranged Disarm feat.. CW maybe?There is. It's either there, or Races of the Wild. Imposes penalties, but there's that, Ranged Pin, and Ranged Sundering. Granted, if you needed to do ranged, Telekinesis is the weapon of choice, as it can bring the weapon back.

I don't want to control.. I want to be able to steal magic weapons so I can drain all of the charges from it and hit them with spellfire. lol.
Though control can be handy.At the end of an adventuring career, no warrior will ever say, "You know, I wish I'd had less means to control my opponent."

Also, note that draining charges may go against the best course of action for the party. Just because you don't get wealth doesn't mean they don't, and doesn't mean they won't get ticked because you nuked that +5 Spellstrike Dagger of Spell-storing. It's along the same lines as Sundering. Bad, as you're destroying the party wealth.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 06:25 AM
Incorrect. You are not flatfooted while prone. You do not lose your threatened zones or the ability to attack. You take penalties, but you may still take AoO's.
Yes but you lose the ability to make attacks of any sort including AoO while prone. There is actually a feat that lets you attack while prone, which kind of proves the point.



But they are unarmed strikes. Unarmed Touch attacks use all bonuses and penalties that unarmed strikes provide, unless stated otherwise. Including provoking. This is supported by the fact that you can choose to use a different weapon for trip attacks, or disarm attacks. As stated, it can be ruled both ways.
It is a special attack that can be made with any weapon (including unarmed strike). The Improved disarm feats states that you NEVER provoke AoO while disarming. This is regardless of the method used.
But as I noted above, they lose the ability to make AoO while prone unless they have a certain feat.



That's valid, if a bit... convoluted.

I spend one spellfire charge to get a ball of fire. I use my ball of fire to make them drop the weapon.
The only problem with it is that under RAW I would not get the weapon in my hand after a disarm as technically I have a "weapon" in my hands already.
But other than that it is pretty strait forward.



There is. It's either there, or Races of the Wild. Imposes penalties, but there's that, Ranged Pin, and Ranged Sundering. Granted, if you needed to do ranged, Telekinesis is the weapon of choice, as it can bring the weapon back.

I have flaming ranged fire of doom.. I care not about returning. lol.



At the end of an adventuring career, no warrior will ever say, "You know, I wish I'd had less means to control my opponent."

True. But if it don't fit, then it don't fit.



Also, note that draining charges may go against the best course of action for the party. Just because you don't get wealth doesn't mean they don't, and doesn't mean they won't get ticked because you nuked that +5 Spellstrike Dagger of Spell-storing. It's along the same lines as Sundering. Bad, as you're destroying the party wealth.

I'll just calmly point out that I get the kill so I get the loot. :D
Also with my VoP I'll uphold the position that they really don't need all that wealth. lol.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-12, 06:34 AM
Yes but you lose the ability to make attacks of any sort including AoO while prone. There is actually a feat that lets you attack while prone, which kind of proves the point.

I assume you've never read the condition summary of Prone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone).

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 06:51 AM
I assume you've never read the condition summary of Prone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone).

Yes. But it makes no sense because there are 3 sections in tactics on the DMG and DMG II and feat that talk about not being able to make attacks while prone. lol.

KillianHawkeye
2009-07-12, 06:51 AM
Yes but you lose the ability to make attacks of any sort including AoO while prone. There is actually a feat that lets you attack while prone, which kind of proves the point.

Furthermore, the Prone Attack feat (from CWar) merely eliminates the penalty for attacking while prone, which anybody can normally do at a -4. It also removes opponents' bonus to hit you when you're prone, and allows you to stand as a free action if your attack hits.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 06:55 AM
Furthermore, the Prone Attack feat (from CWar) merely eliminates the penalty for attacking while prone, which anybody can normally do at a -4. It also removes opponents' bonus to hit you when you're prone, and allows you to stand as a free action if your attack hits.

I'll need to check my books.
I feel another clash of book versions coming on..
This has got me four times. I am really starting to regret buying those old books from ebay. Though I may have mis-remembered with the feat... lol. or any of it really. I was reading all this at 2 AM last night. :P



Anyway it is moot:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTrip
No AoO allowed there...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedDisarm
No AoO allowed there...

So in this instance it does not matter.

dragoonsgone
2009-07-12, 09:42 AM
I'll just calmly point out that I get the kill so I get the loot. :D
Also with my VoP I'll uphold the position that they really don't need all that wealth. lol.

Part of VOP is giving your share of the loot to charity. Destroying it could easily be argued as breaking that vow.

That aside, in what game does the person who gets the kill get the loot? Its split amongst the party and if you don't get the kill when you play that way but you destroyed the loot then you just destroyed your teammates loot.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 09:48 AM
Yeah I know it was a weak argument. lol.
I cannot see any way around the party hating me after a couple of levels.

I don't see how it breaks my vow though. The feats doesn't say I have to give my cash to charities, just suggests it. So long as I don't hoard wealth or use magic items I'm all good. I don't use magic items.. I eat them. lol.
I can just leave the rest of the loot to the party.
I don't need to eat, sleep and later on even breath. ;)


My current build (also in sig) uses Hellbred race so I can steal evil items and drain them. Which the party wont care about. lol.

daggaz
2009-07-12, 09:51 AM
The only reasons you take the improved X feats is for the +4 bonus to the check and the fact that you dont provoke AoOs. Otherwise, anybody can still attempt to trip or disarm, even the party wizard.

As for attacking while prone, you certainly can. I think the DMG is just poorly worded and is really only paying service to the fact that doing anything at a -4 penalty is a really bad strategy so you might as well not do it.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-12, 09:53 AM
Get Steadfast Boots (Magic Item Compendium) to avoid counter-tripping.

Also, watch out for Rogues. Since you can use a Balance check instead of a straight STR/DEX check to oppose trips (rule in Complete Adventurer), and Rogues can increase their skill mod faster than you can boost your trip bonus, higher-level Rogues can be untrippable. Don't waste your attacks.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 09:53 AM
The only reasons you take the improved X feats is for the +4 bonus to the check and the fact that you dont provoke AoOs. Otherwise, anybody can still attempt to trip or disarm, even the party wizard.
Exactly.
The only major reason to take them is to get rid of those AoO.
Else really why bother? There are much better things you could do. :P



As for attacking while prone, you certainly can. I think the DMG is just poorly worded and is really only paying service to the fact that doing anything at a -4 penalty is a really bad strategy so you might as well not do it.

Yeah I re-read it. It is just poor wording which I misread.
You can still attack, just not very well. :P


Get Steadfast Boots (Magic Item Compendium) to avoid counter-tripping.
Would if I could.
I wonder, is there a feat that does similar?
I am sure I saw one once...



Also, watch out for Rogues. Since you can use a Balance check instead of a straight STR/DEX check to oppose trips (rule in Complete Adventurer), and Rogues can increase their skill mod faster than you can boost your trip bonus, higher-level Rogues can be untrippable. Don't waste your attacks.

Well, hence why you should never make a one-trick pony. I make a two-trick pony instead. lol.

Talic
2009-07-12, 10:58 AM
Yes but you lose the ability to make attacks of any sort including AoO while prone. There is actually a feat that lets you attack while prone, which kind of proves the point.

From SRD, Prone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone):Prone

The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.The SRD entry disallows ranged weapons (other than crossbows), and provides a -4 penalty to melee attacks. The penalty to melee attacks strongly implies you can make melee attacks.


It is a special attack that can be made with any weapon (including unarmed strike). The Improved disarm feats states that you NEVER provoke AoO while disarming. This is regardless of the method used.
SRD, Improved Disarm:Benefit

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to disarm an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent. The act of disarming does not provoke. Other parts of the action still may. For instance, if you perform a charge attack, and announce you are going to disarm the spiked chain wielding tripper. The disarm is part of the charge action, and yet charge's movement still provokes. Just because the disarm doesn't provoke does not mean that other parts of the action don't. So if an unarmed strike provokes? And you make an unarmed strike to disarm? Even if the disarm action doesn't, it could easily be ruled that the unarmed strike does. It really can be ruled both ways, guy.

But as I noted above, they lose the ability to make AoO while prone unless they have a certain feat.And as I noted, with appropriate sources cited from the SRD, you're wrong.

I spend one spellfire charge to get a ball of fire. I use my ball of fire to make them drop the weapon.
The only problem with it is that under RAW I would not get the weapon in my hand after a disarm as technically I have a "weapon" in my hands already.
But other than that it is pretty strait forward.Utilizing a magic effect to make a normally provoking attack non-provoking, for the purpose of circumventing a rule is a bit convoluted.

I have flaming ranged fire of doom.. I care not about returning. lol.Even when returning the weapon to you makes it much easier to drain it to fuel your spellfire?


I'll just calmly point out that I get the kill so I get the loot. :D
Also with my VoP I'll uphold the position that they really don't need all that wealth. lol.
I'd like to point out that "it's what my character would do" does not relieve you from the burden of being a decent player. When the fighter sees the +3 Vorpal Greatsword, and you break it for a temporary sparkle? You're gonna have a pissed player, chances are.

Also, VoP does not require you to enforce your views on others. In fact, it requires you claim an equal share of wealth for donation and other noble causes. They have an active interest in making sure that wealth is used to better mankind. They deny themselves to further that. When you start controlling the wealth of others and making obligations on their characters?

You cease being a party member, and start being a party babysitter. It's the paladin stereotype that earned Paladins a bad name. It did that because dictating what other players should and should not have is irritating at best, and a one-way-ticket to Don't-come-back-land at worst.

Basically, you're nerfing every other player at the table who doesn't get the benefit of those feats. You're putting them behind WBL, which is a major factor in character effectiveness.

The only way to fix that? The DM introduces increased wealth into the campaign, just to accommodate you. When either all the players must cater to you, or the DM himself must? You're not being a good player.

Person_Man
2009-07-12, 11:30 AM
Here are some basic building blocks that you might want to play with:

Snatch Weapon (http://www.realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Snatch_Weapon,all): Lets you grab your enemy's weapon after a Disarm attempt even if you're armed, and make a free attack against them. Remember that you can switch between using a weapon in one hand or two hands as a free action. So you can smack an enemy using a Flindbar two handed, get a free Disarm attempt if you threaten a crit, Disarm them, switch to using your Flindbar one handed, grab their weapon, and get a free attack (assuming it's not a two handed weapon - otherwise you'll have to drop your Flindbar).

Combat Reflexes + Combat Exp + Improved Trip + Knock-Down (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Knock-Down): Free Trip attempt when you deal 10+ points of damage. Note that you do not then get another free attack. Knock-Down just changes the order of when you Trip to make it more advantageous to you. (It's in the errata).

Combat Reflexes + Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Knockback + Shock Trooper (http://www.realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Shock_Trooper,all): If you use a Bull Rush to push Enemy A into Enemy B, you get a free trip attempt on both of them (and a free follow up attack on both of them if you have Improved Trip and they're both within your threatened range). This has tons of very useful (but of topic, so I won't post them here) applications.

Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b): One level dip gives you Cha bonus to all disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.

Factotum (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436): Three levels lets you add your Int bonus to Str and Dex checks and all Strength and Dex-based skills.

Stun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned): Anything that Stuns your enemy (like Stunning Fist, or a variety of magic items and spells) makes the enemy drop everything they're holding.

Flindbar: Monster Manual III: Exotic Weapon. +2 to Disarm, and when you threaten a crit (19-20 or 17-20 with any Keen/Impact effect) you get a free Disarm attempt before you roll to confirm the crit.

Ritiik: Frostburn: Exotic Weapon. If you successfully hit an enemy, the enemy must make a Reflex Save. If it fails, you get a free Trip Attempt.

Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526): One level grants you proficiency in all Exotic Weapons.

Reach: You should get a lot of it:

Play a big race (try to avoid LA)
Reach Weapon: Doubles reach.
Polymorph: Ask a friend to turn you into something bigger.
Expansion (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person): +1 or +2 size.
Alter Self (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person or Expansion): +1 size.
Giant Size (Wu Jen 7, Comp Arcane pg 109): Grow to Huge size or bigger.
Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror): +5 ft.
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness): +5 ft.
Extended Reach (req tentacle like limbs, provided by Inhuman Reach): +5 ft.
3 levels of Warshaper (Comp Warrior): +5 ft, but only with natural weapons.


Tactics: You should know that Tripping, Disarming, or using any other special attack against an enemy is not the goal of combat. The goal is to kill your enemy. Tripping and Disarming are (sometimes) useful ways to stop your enemy's movement and/or prevent him from attacking. They are defensive, not offensive. Every feat you spend to improve your Trip and Disarm ability is a feat you're not spending on something more useful. And unless you have Knock-Down and Flindbars, whenever you spend an attack roll on a Trip or Disarm attempt, that's an attack roll you're not using to kill your enemy. Trip and Disarm are sometimes useful battlefield control options. They are not a goal unto themselves.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 07:30 PM
@Talic.. if you read the rest of my posts you'll see that I admitted I was wrong earlier. lol. And yes I realise I am goign to be a sucky player under WBL. But it seems that half the party have VoP and it is a wealth/magic items heavy game already from what I can gather.. so meh.

@Person_Man: Yes, Art of War is very useful, don't know why I didn't think of that before. The rest fo that is not overly helpful to me in particular, but definately worth while for a lot of good options for a standard trip/disarm build. Thanks heaps. :D

playswithfire
2009-07-12, 09:33 PM
This may or may not be useful. It's a bit of a multiclass mess, but it works pretty well, I'd say.

Bard/Fighter 2/Marshal 2/Warblade/Battle Dancer 2/Exotic Weapons Master

Feats:
1 - Extra Music
Human - Jotunbrud
Flaw(Shaky) - Combat Expertise
Fighter 1 - Improved Trip
Fighter 2 - Improved Disarm
3 - Weapon Focus(whip)*
6 - Snowflake Wardance
9 - Snatch Weapon

*warblade's weapon aptitude retrains this to Gnome Swordcatcher

Trip at 10 (4 feat + 4 size from Jotunbrud + 2 EWM trip attack) + STR + CHA
Disarm at 20 (BAB 7 + 1 major aura + 4 feat + 4 size + 4 swordcatcher) +STR+2*CHA

Claudius Maximus
2009-07-12, 09:44 PM
I have to agree that your intentions are in violation of Vow of Peace. The whole point is that you deprive yourself of all wealth to accommodate others; in other words, charity. Draining magic items counts as using them, and in the case of charged magic items, it's the same as spending money on yourself. If your DM lets you get away with this, then go ahead, but normally the vow is being violated.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-12, 10:13 PM
Half-Giant Fighter2/Ranger1/PsiWar2/Slayer3

Grab Improved Manifester to be able to manifest Expansion augmented to two size categories This means you are Huge and count as Gargantuan for purposes of your checks, which gives a +12 on your Trip. It also gives you a 10' reach, which means unless they're using a Weapon of Reach or are similarly sized, you get an AoO against them before they can make their attack.

Ranger is simply used for Track and skills to get into Slayer, which has superior BAB progression. Once you've maxed out Slayer, go back into PsiWar for two levels to prevent further BAB deteroriation. At 20th level, it will have BAB of +19.

You've got plenty of feats available here, two bonus feats each from Fighter and PsiWar to be able to grab Improved Trip and Improved Disarm by level 2, or even level 1 if you are Human.

Two Powers of note: Expansion and Prowess to get even more AoO's.

You may want Master of Masks or some other way of being proficient in ANY weapon your opponents wield, no matter how obscure it is

Gaiyamato
2009-07-12, 10:39 PM
I have to agree that your intentions are in violation of Vow of Peace. The whole point is that you deprive yourself of all wealth to accommodate others; in other words, charity. Draining magic items counts as using them, and in the case of charged magic items, it's the same as spending money on yourself. If your DM lets you get away with this, then go ahead, but normally the vow is being violated.

The Volunatary poverty rules explicity state that anything required for a class feature of feat to work such as Spell Materials etc.is allowed and does not breach the VoP.
Alos aside from the fact that bit about giving to the poor is a side bit of optional fluff.
I can vow to not have material possessions of any sort and give excess to the poor.
What would the poor do with a magic sword anyway??
You guys are making the mistake of counting the sword just in terms of wealth.

I give them my share of the gold no probs though, which is what I do.
Given I don't require food, or sleep or next level even to breath. I noly need my clothes.. and that is only for modesty. I can fly etc. no probs. So I don;t need any facy gear.
All I have is some peasant rags. I drain a bunch of items for my primary ability to work. After that I give everything else away.

That is the very heart of the behaviour of the VoP. The rest is extra stuff you guys are tacking on based on your western christian perception of a Vow of Poverty.. nothing more.

So under by RAW and RAI it's no problems.

Bayar
2009-07-13, 04:14 AM
Stop using 'lol' at the end of every other sentence. It is annoying.

You know what I find 'lol' worthy ? You disarm an opponent. His magical weapon is in your posession. You break your vow of poverty. LOL ! PWN'D !

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 05:19 AM
Stop using 'lol' at the end of every other sentence. It is annoying.

You know what I find 'lol' worthy ? You disarm an opponent. His magical weapon is in your posession. You break your vow of poverty. LOL ! PWN'D !

Actually it does not break the VoP. How else could I take gold and items and give them to the poor? It even covers this in the lower section of the feat.
I may possess them, just cannot use them or obtain any sort of bonus.
But I can take a weapon from someone trying to kill me, drain the magic from it and then swing a normal blade, or if I'm not fussed about charges I can then stick it in my backpack and give it to the nearest good aligned NPC, or just throw it away.

I'd have to actually swing that sucker while it was magical for it break my VoP.

and ...

L:smallbiggrin:L L:smallbiggrin:L L:smallbiggrin:L L:smallbiggrin:L

I laugh so much because so many of you fail to read the rule books. lol.

Claudius Maximus
2009-07-13, 12:47 PM
I don't think that's right. According to the vow, you can't even use a masterwork weapon, which is exactly what you do when you swing a drained weapon. I would also argue that draining a magic item constitutes using it/gaining a bonus. You certainly couldn't keep a magic sword for use as a Spellfire battery, since you'd essentially own it. On the subject of charity, the BoED explicitly states "An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial", so I don't think it's optional.

ericgrau
2009-07-13, 01:02 PM
I'd think that taking your opponents weapon and using it against him would be sub-optimal because his weapon tends to be worse than yours. But then again it prevents him from picking it up again. You're also relying on success on 2 attacks in a row for this to work. But then again your opponent gets a -4 to the 2nd opposed check since he's prone.

Well, here goes. Try to get large size for the +4/+5. You could get potions of enlarge person if you have a buffing round to use it, otherwise don't bother. Or be a half-giant or etc. The strength boost from a barbarian's rage would help too. To take the opponent's weapon you'll need to make an unarmed disarm attempt, which unfortunately gives you a -4. That or spend a move action to pick it up, but that causes a serious delay. I'd walk around unarmed but carry a backup weapon in case your enemies aren't armed. Probably a tripping weapon like a glaive guisarme. Important feats would be combat expertise, improved trip, improved disarm and weapon focus (unarmed strike). Magic gauntlets would help the disarm, if allowed.

I'd also start nabbing opponent's holy symbols, spell component pouches, bows, potions and wands since these are fairly easy checks.

Claudius Maximus
2009-07-13, 01:09 PM
I haven't seen Armbands of Might from Complete Adventurer mentioned. They give a +2 bonus on strength checks and strength based skill checks, so they'll boost the strength check for tripping.

@ericgrau Glaives aren't tripping weapons. I think you're thinking of Guisarmes.

ericgrau
2009-07-13, 01:12 PM
I also think I was thinking about guisarmes. :smalltongue:

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 08:02 PM
I don't think that's right. According to the vow, you can't even use a masterwork weapon, which is exactly what you do when you swing a drained weapon. I would also argue that draining a magic item constitutes using it/gaining a bonus. You certainly couldn't keep a magic sword for use as a Spellfire battery, since you'd essentially own it. On the subject of charity, the BoED explicitly states "An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial", so I don't think it's optional.

Actually on that first point you may be right.
I'll have to drain it and then give the masterwork weapon away later, no way I would be allowed to swing it.

And you may be right about storing it for draining later.
I could keep it to give away but that is it.

The statement in the BoED is a suggestion which is part of the fluff and also has an OR after that giving you other options if you continue to read down.
Of course all of my spare gold, masterwork weapons, magic items I didn't drain on the spot etc. all go to the poor etc.
I can only hold so many charges so I doubt I'll drain everything. lol.