extraordinarily stupid loophole

[galdon]

While trying to explain to my brother that they cannot rez belkar because teh prophecy says 'belkar will draw his last breath -ever- before the end of the year' a short conversation takes place

Him: well he isn't really himself now
Me: but he's still belkar
Him: what if he changes his name
Me: ...

It seems so stupid but I cannot find anything wrong with it considering they have a lawyer in the party right now. what does everybody else think about this?

[derfenrirwolv]

Its "jedi truth". People thinking they're being clever when in fact they're being so metaphorical that they've crossed into nonsense.

Sophisticated and sensible argument have a very hard time dealing with blatant nonsense. You're just going to have to put up with him until belkar is turned to stone, undead, or a shark or something.

[theinsulabot]

the problem is that changing the name doesn't change belkar. hell, he already has several names, the belkster, death's little helper, SSGoW, etcetera. doesn't matter, he is still belkar, and always will be. when the prophecy comes true, he will STILL be belkar, even if he has a slip of paper claiming his name is fred or something

[Aris Katsaris]

It seems so stupid but I cannot find anything wrong with it

... really? You can't find anything wrong with it?

If I kill someone and then change my name, does that mean I no longer killed them?

Inevitably some people will argue anything, but I have to say this is nonsensical to the point of deliberate stupidity.

[NerfTW]

That would just be idiotic and a terrible plot "twist". There are far more interesting ways to get around the prophecy, and even if he just dies, Roy is just going to burn his corpse and scatter the ashes in the ocean so he can't be rezzed short of a wish spell.

[Mariel Dragon]

"the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA"

is the exact quote by the oracle.
So, as long as Belkar doesn't get surgery to become a half-orc, there is not much he can do about that one.

[Jaltum]

The prophecy about Belkar drawing his last breath was the only one who used his last name. So, in this theory, "Belkar" draws his last breath, and "Blekar" or whoever draws the next one, I guess?

The other prophecies were specifically directed at Belkar, who was in the room at the time; "the halfling" shouldn't bother funding an IRA and "he" should savor his next birthday cake. Even if Belkar stops being a male halfling, he was one when Oracle made the statements. But these are more ambiguous than "will draw his last breath--ever--by the end of the year."

The one that ruins every crackpot theory, though, is "your pal isn't long for this world." Under a different name, as an undead, as a fish, whatever, Belkar would be in the world.

[Morquard]

True Resurrection.
Pretty much the only thing preventing it is a Soul Bind or getting snarled. Or belkar liking the Abyss so much he doesn't want to come back.

However, I somehow doubt the Order would want to rezz Belkar, even if they had a perfectly good body to do it. Unless he really changes and does something so incredibely awesome everyone feels he deserves a second chance.

[NerfTW]

The prophecy about Belkar drawing his last breath was the only one who used his last name.

No it didn't. He's always called Belkar. I don't think his last name has ever been mentioned in the strip by anyone, let alone the Oracle.

As for the True Ressurection, that could bring him back, but it requires someone high enough level to cast that (or wish) and cares enough to bring him back. Or even knows of his existence.

Although that is interesting that he might die fighting the Snarl, leading the group down the same path as the Order of the Scribble once did, and seeing how things turn out differently.

[Morquard]

As for the True Ressurection, that could bring him back, but it requires someone high enough level to cast that (or wish) and cares enough to bring him back. Or even knows of his existence.
Well I think a cleric has to be level 17 to cast it. The order is approximately level 15 now. So its not THAT far fetched that Durkon could be level 17 by the time the True Ressurction is actually needed.
But as I said, I don't think they care that much for him to actually do it, unless he does something really heroic that would make them reconsider it. But they know Belkar is evil.

[Shpadoinkle]

No it didn't. He's always called Belkar. I don't think his last name has ever been mentioned in the strip by anyone, let alone the Oracle.

His last name is Bitterleaf. It's been mentioned two or three times.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I would say the ultimate plot-twist would be to not have a plot twist, and have Belkar die and not return!

No vampire halfling, no undead, no reincarnated as a shark, nothing. Belkar dies while pretending to have character development, and being pissed off as hell while he watches his friends mourn over his mortal remains, or the pile of ash left behind, or whatever...

[derfenrirwolv]

Belkar dies while pretending to have character development, and being pissed off as hell while he watches his friends mourn over his mortal remains

Dammit! I pretended to have character growth for you! resurrect me already!

[factotum]

True Resurrection.
Pretty much the only thing preventing it is a Soul Bind or getting snarled. Or belkar liking the Abyss so much he doesn't want to come back.


You forgot the most important thing preventing it: the OotS might not know anyone high enough level to cast it!

[Thanatos 51-50]

For the record, Thanatos disapproves of these "Belkar will exploit a loophole" theorists.
On the other hand, Thanatos heartily approves of a Belkar who will die and stay dead.

Belkar is my Miko.

[Forbiddenwar]

true rez also requires 25000 gp worth of diamonds.

[littlequietguy]

I bet that the belkar we are seeing now is Belkar from the future who switched places with past Belkar and threw him into the future when he was first jailed by Miko. In actuality past Belkar had his lead sheet confiscated when he went into jail and the future Belkar just got a new one. Future Belkar will go switch places with past Belkar just before he dies (because that's how past Belkar remembers it).

[FlawedParadigm]

Maybe his pals will use time travel to go back to the moment of his death and replace his soon-to-be-dead-body with a life-size Belkar doll.

Obviously, no one in history has ever thought of this plot before.
Yes, I played Chrono Trigger too. Hee. I'm not *that* dumb.

[rewinn]

I bet that the belkar we are seeing now is Belkar from the future who switched places with past Belkar and threw him into the future when he was first jailed by Miko. In actuality past Belkar had his lead sheet confiscated when he went into jail and the future Belkar just got a new one. Future Belkar will go switch places with past Belkar just before he dies (because that's how past Belkar remembers it).That's a better theory than my OOTS/ST:TNG Crossover theory.

Belkar wouldn't make a very good Borg anyway. Too individual.

[R. Malcovitch]

Wouldn't work. He's still Belkar, even if he doesn't go by the name anymore. The only loophoes would be undeath or construction.

[Olorin Maia]

Wouldn't work. He's still Belkar, even if he doesn't go by the name anymore. The only loophoes would be undeath or construction.

I'm not sure exactly what construction would be or how it would be a loophole, but undeath doesn't work as Belkar is also "Not long for this world".

[Kroy]

Congratulations. You're the 1287th poster to mention this stupid loophole (that is flawed). Belkar is still going to die.

[XAQ]

I think Belkar isn't going to be GONE completely from the comic, no matter how he dies... he's either going to persist as a ghost, or get raised as undead (probably after an extended storyline in Hell, like Roy's in heaven), or something. Consider:

A) The flow of time in the comic has generally been reasonable, regarding travel and other time-consuming things

B) There's only a few weeks left before Belkar's demise, according to Roy

C) The Giant hasn't made any references to ending the comic strip in the near future

So, we know that Belkar's death is probably not going to coincide with the end of the comic strip. So if Belkar's death is permanent, that means the Giant is going to be down one of his more popular characters for the rest of his story, which could still go for a long time yet.

Rich is a very good story-teller, and I don't see him tossing away such a useful foil as Belkar without drawing out the soap-opera a little. Belkar as an undead villain, or a ghost haunting Roy, or whatever, would be far more interesting to the long-term story than Belkar just being dead and gone, even if his death occurs in an interesting fashion.

The only other reason I can see to kill Belkar off, would be for the sake of "depth", where a story-teller kills major characters just to make the story seem more gritty and edgy... like J.K. Rowling randomly selecting characters to kill off in her final Harry Potter book, just to impress upon the readers that the situation in the story is dangerous. The fact of the matter is, such tactics DON'T particularly help a story, especially one where the entire setting is fantastical and silly to begin with. Instead, they come across as arbitrary and annoying to fans of the given character... so I don't think that's where the Giant is going with this. At least, I hope he isn't.

Also, I think that "not long for this world" is a pretty well-accepted euphemism for dying... it's not a literal statement indicating "this person will soon not be present in any form, spiritual or physical, on this plane of existence". That's just ridiculous.

[hamishspence]

To quote The Giant on Belkar (Paladin Blues)

Well, just so there's no misunderstanding: Belkar is a protagonist of OOTS, regardless of his alignment. The strip will continue to follow him even if he leaves the OOTS. Heck, if Miko had killed Belkar, we probably would have had a few strips showing Belkar in the afterlife before he was brought back (Aw, man, that would have been great...sigh...another opportunity missed.)

Suggesting that, unless Snarl gets him, if he is indeed killed, its likely (though not certain) that he will get some afterlife strips. And if he leaves the party for some reason, we will continue to see him.

[Olorin Maia]

I would agree with your idea about "not long for this world" being a euphemism, except for one thing--our world doesn't have undead. In the Stick-world, this is fairly common, and thus wouldn't have evolved. So yea, it's possible that he would just die, but I think that its far more likely that we see him in the afterlife similar to how we saw Roy.

Edit:Just as hamishspence and The Giant said.

[theinsulabot]

To quote The Giant on Belkar (Paladin Blues)

Well, just so there's no misunderstanding: Belkar is a protagonist of OOTS, regardless of his alignment. The strip will continue to follow him even if he leaves the OOTS. Heck, if Miko had killed Belkar, we probably would have had a few strips showing Belkar in the afterlife before he was brought back (Aw, man, that would have been great...sigh...another opportunity missed.)

Suggesting that, unless Snarl gets him, if he is indeed killed, its likely (though not certain) that he will get some afterlife strips. And if he leaves the party for some reason, we will continue to see him.


if the snarl gets him, it would destroy his soul

[hamishspence]

Hence "unless the Snarl gets him, we will probably see him in the afterlife"

[Ancalagon]

I would say the ultimate plot-twist would be to not have a plot twist, and have Belkar die and not return!

Ultimate plot twist? Err... that's really the most probable outcome. That'd be straightforward and as linear as it can get.

And it will happen...

[theinsulabot]

Hence "unless the Snarl gets him, we will probably see him in the afterlife"

my mistake, sorry. thought that said "when" the snarl gets him.

[Bibliomancer]

I'm not sure exactly what construction would be or how it would be a loophole, but undeath doesn't work as Belkar is also "Not long for this world".

Look, it's very clear that the god of irony with turn the dead Belkar into an inevitable whose duty is to prevent homicide.

[[TS] Shadow]

That would just be idiotic and a terrible plot "twist". There are far more interesting ways to get around the prophecy, and even if he just dies, Roy is just going to burn his corpse and scatter the ashes in the ocean so he can't be rezzed short of a wish spell.

You sure about that? I bet they'll miss him after he's gone, and give him a proper funeral if nothing else. You'd be suprised how people react; remember when they thought he died at the bandit camp?

[Wizzardman]

For the record, Thanatos disapproves of these "Belkar will exploit a loophole" theorists.
On the other hand, Thanatos heartily approves of a Belkar who will die and stay dead.

Belkar is my Miko.

So you want to start a relationship with him, but keep missing the fact that he doesn't seem to be interested, and the rest of your party hates his guts?

[blueblade]

I think given the exposition we've seen (and effectively the unveiling of the strips major villains) Belkar dies, ends up in hell, which is just the right place to have a member of the Oots for recon and to help disrupt the Fiends plans.

In fact, calling it right now:

Just as the fiends are about to decisively enact their plan to control/manipulate the snarl (through Varsuvius) our very own sexy shoeless god of war is going to step right in with a dagger in the eye (for bonus points, it'll be Lee that gets the poking).


Is there some formal method for me to announce my prediction?

[Nimrod's Son]

Is there some formal method for me to announce my prediction?
If you'd given us a bit more notice, we all could have rented tuxedos. :smallwink:

[FlawedParadigm]

Is there some formal method for me to announce my prediction?

Only if you want to ensure with perfect accuracy that it will never, ever come true in anything Rich ever writes, yes.

[Spiky]

I would agree with your idea about "not long for this world" being a euphemism, except for one thing--our world doesn't have undead. In the Stick-world, this is fairly common, and thus wouldn't have evolved. So yea, it's possible that he would just die, but I think that its far more likely that we see him in the afterlife similar to how we saw Roy.

Edit:Just as hamishspence and The Giant said.

Not to mention there has been a lot of afterlife recently in the comic. And the most recent 668 has clearly shown connections to the evil afterlifes that we had only assumed before. So it seems likely Belkar will have something to do down there once he arrives.

And of course, he will fit right in.

[FlawedParadigm]

And of course, he will fit right in.

You know, if it were in anything but D&D where people like Asmodeus and Orcus wander around Hell, I'd say it's more like an un-Roy-restrained Belkar would "take over" rather than "fit in."

...Actually, with recent strips in mind, Belkar's kinda small carrots compared to V and Xykon. Talk about sudden perspective.

[Bibliomancer]

You know, if it were in anything but D&D where people like Asmodeus and Orcus wander around Hell, I'd say it's more like an un-Roy-restrained Belkar would "take over" rather than "fit in."

...Actually, with recent strips in mind, Belkar's kinda small carrots compared to V and Xykon. Talk about sudden perspective.

You're kidding, right? No archfiend could stand against a god, especially not a demigod of war.

At the very least, I expect Belkar to be elevated to the rank of vrock when he dies for pure evilness. I would laugh heartily if he became a marilith.

[Kish]

I'm not sure exactly what construction would be or how it would be a loophole,
Xykon make Belkar his avatar of war!

(If you have no idea what I'm talking about, and/or are substituting other words in the name of good grammar, don't worry about it too much.)

[Prowl]

I should point out that the not bothering to fund the IRA could have been a piece of savvy economic prognostication rather than anything specifically to do with any of the characters in the comic. The Dow Jones index was over 11,000 at the time, which means you took an >30% hit on whatever you put in, more than wiping out the tax advantages of the program.

[FlawedParadigm]

You're kidding, right? No archfiend could stand against a god, especially not a demigod of war.

At the very least, I expect Belkar to be elevated to the rank of vrock when he dies for pure evilness. I would laugh heartily if he became a marilith.

:belkar: *I* have boobies. And six arms to feel them with! If this isn't the Upper Planes, I don't want to know what is!

[blueblade]

If you'd given us a bit more notice, we all could have rented tuxedos. :smallwink:

Luckily I have brought Tuxedos for all of you, as well as a set a of extremely long trumpets to herald this missive, I trust you have all brought your own mouthgaurds and been practicing your wind instruments.

Fanfare

Giant please look away now

:belkar: will die, and be right where he needs to be for the story

Divers Alarums (I have no idea what this means :smallwink:)

[Olorin Maia]

I should point out that the not bothering to fund the IRA could have been a piece of savvy economic prognostication rather than anything specifically to do with any of the characters in the comic. The Dow Jones index was over 11,000 at the time, which means you took an >30% hit on whatever you put in, more than wiping out the tax advantages of the program.

Everytime I reread the archives (ok, well, recently anyway) I think to myself, man, Belkar could have made a killing had he remembered that.

[skim172]

Belkar will die. The outright, straightforward nature of the prophecy and its constant reiteration says, quite strongly, that Belkar is intended to die. No gimmicky loopholes.

The only way out of it: the Oracle is lying. For his as yet unrevealed purposes. It would be the only thing that wouldn't feel like a cop-out.

[factotum]

The only way out of it: the Oracle is lying. For his as yet unrevealed purposes. It would be the only thing that wouldn't feel like a cop-out.

Seems unlikely. If the Oracle were ever to lie about a prediction then his reputation would be shot, for a start. Also, if he was going to lie about anything, he'd presumably have lied to the ABD to avoid getting a quarter of the world's black dragons killed--Tiamat *is* his patron goddess, after all.

[rangermania]

His name is still "Belkar" while the prediction is made. And since its a fute referance for a present character name changing afterwards wouldn't mean a thing in my opinion...

[Spiky]

The only way out of it: the Oracle is lying. For his as yet unrevealed purposes. It would be the only thing that wouldn't feel like a cop-out.

How would that not feel like a cop-out? Sounds textbook to me.

[theinsulabot]

How would that not feel like a cop-out? Sounds textbook to me.


see i dont know, the oracle has got xanotos gambit written all over him, i can see him setting this up to stop roy from reigning in belkar. Roy would probably be taking a far more stern approach if it wasn't for the fact that the oracle (and only the oracle) has said that belkar is going down

[Steward]

Yeah, but Belkar is already (pretending to) reign himself in a result of Shojo's little dream thing that they had earlier. It seems kind of stupid to have two scenes intended to establish the same plot point -- that's the sort of thing that you would cut out of a movie or a book and OOTS is usually pretty good about not wasting lots of panels. I guess I just think that if the Oracle is simply lying then it's a copout, sort of like if at comic 670 it turns out that strips 1 through 668 were just a dream.

[Morquard]

Well Roy and Haley both said they don't buy the changed Belkar and believe its just a trick to achive something, which eventually will be bad. Which it really is.
So Roy might have turned him over to the Azurites for that year in prison he still has open.

However much in that theory depends on the Oracle and Tiamat pretty much knowing EVERYTHING. And Tiamats reaction to the Familicite recently gives good reason to assume she was surprised by it.
Of course, maybe not. Maybe she's a good actor and pretended she was surprised. Maybe she wanted it to happen, so she can get the fiends to wipe out the good dragons.
Far fetched, I know.

[pflare]

The most obvious loophole is that Belkar gets zombified or raised as some other type of undead that doesn't breath. But there are other clues that the oracle made that implied that Belkar will actually die for good.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html

[XAQ]

Yeah, but I can't help but think that the Giant isn't going to let Order of the Stick carry on without Belkar. Whether we just follow him in the afterlife, or he gets made into an Undead, or SOMEthing, he's a protagonist, and his erasure from the strip can only herald the final end of the comic.

Unless the whole strip is going to wrap up in the next 6 in-game weeks... but the pacing seems off for that...

[zql]

While trying to explain to my brother that they cannot rez belkar because teh prophecy says 'belkar will draw his last breath -ever- before the end of the year' a short conversation takes place

Him: well he isn't really himself now
Me: but he's still belkar
Him: what if he changes his name
Me: ...

It seems so stupid but I cannot find anything wrong with it considering they have a lawyer in the party right now. what does everybody else think about this?

Saul Kripke would chopp your brother's head off, raise him, shower him with holy water, and probably then cast Familicide. Language philosophers are serious, so be careful :smallbiggrin: