(3.5) Need a good military or large battle combat system.

[Pika...]

Sup giantitp. Need some hope. I am planning to run a low magic campaign that deals more with the PCs acting as leaders, most likey military ones depending on what choices they make, but I imagine they can choose to lead a temple of adepts or a skirmish unit of devoted cultists if they choose (I imagine a minotaur leading a tribe of Baphomet devoted minotaurs would be pretty cool).

I picked up a copy of Heroes of Battles today, but it seems to not be what I need. It keeps emphasizing the PCs having little battles or encounters, which "trickles down" somehow determining the entire course of the battle. Some of that stuff seems useful for lower levels, though, since I want to replace the standard making a "name for themselves" theme from being about them getting more and more magic items, to getting waves of followers and possibly even armies, cults, whatever behind them.

Of course there will be the option of saving their homeland kingdom, or if they are bold enough trying to take over it themselves.


So please tell me if you know of any good systems for dealing with this. I read something about a Connan PDF a while back, but I am not sure how good that is.

[AslanCross]

Heroes of Battle suggests that instead of actually running the big battles (and having the game turn into Warhammer), continue running the game as an RPG, with the PCs performing specific missions that affect the course of the larger war. Doing this involves victory points, which the PCs can win by accomplishing certain objectives. The number of victory points the PCs get determines the overall course of the battle.

The Red Hand of Doom adventure is a good example of the application of this system.

EDIT: I didn't read. XP Sorry.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

If you're not planning on too epic a scale, perhaps you could make character sheets treating a company of troops as one entity (with lots of hit points). Perhaps look up rules for mobs and swarms and tweak them to suit your needs?

[Pika...]

Heroes of Battle suggests that instead of actually running the big battles (and having the game turn into Warhammer), continue running the game as an RPG, with the PCs performing specific missions that affect the course of the larger war. Doing this involves victory points, which the PCs can win by accomplishing certain objectives. The number of victory points the PCs get determines the overall course of the battle.

The Red Hand of Doom adventure is a good example of the application of this system.

Thanks, that is what I figured this system was like. However, as I said above that is definitely not what I want.

I play warhammer, and so do most of my mates, so occasionally having the game switch gears into a military style game does not seem like such a bad idea to me. Plus I dislike the whole point system, takes a bit of the realism, and a lot of the strategy, out of the game in my opinion.

[Pika...]

If you're not planning on too epic a scale, perhaps you could make character sheets treating a company of troops as one entity (with lots of hit points). Perhaps look up rules for mobs and swarms and tweak them to suit your needs?

From what little I was told of that conan thing I believe they mentioned something like that. Seems like it would be a good idea I guess. I am already collecting minis of all kinds (mostly Games Workshop) for this, so since they are uniform looking perhaps this could work?

[Anxe]

Green Ronin has a good army combat system that molds onto D&D. The version I have is in Trojan War, but I think it's in one of their Oriental style sourcebooks as well.

[Yukitsu]

You could simply use the rules for warhammer. :smalltongue:

I'd go with unit stat blocks, using the average troopers stats multiplied by X times. As they take hits and losses, they lose damage per round, for instance.

Give each unit a little excel spread sheet. It's Average damage on a hit times the number of attackers at the 0 AC amount, full units strength, and have the numbers go down by losses to your unit along one axis, and by increases to enemy AC on the other column. This lets you say "This unit causes 160 points of damage to this other unit, which is 16 dead fighters. They are down to 95%."

Give each unit a morale rating based on will saves, as well as modifiers that you think are appropriate. Each 10% loss is a loss of a point, getting flanked or ambushed is a loss of 3 points, for instance. Regen a point a turn, when near the general, when flying the regimental colours, etc.

[Rhawin]

The DnD miniatures game is actually pretty good for this, assuming moderate sized battles (ie no more than 45ish combatant's total).

Warhammer works well for battles up to around 100-150ish total combatants but can get really time consuming if you go larger.

Anything larger than both of those and I would consider abandoning DnD even as a base ruleset.

[Pika...]

Green Ronin has a good army combat system that molds onto D&D. The version I have is in Trojan War, but I think it's in one of their Oriental style sourcebooks as well.

I just downloaded (legally at Drive-Through RPG) a copy of this book, and am by the forces section. So far I am liking what I am reading. However, there are some issues I ee.

First off, the needing a stronghold and having to line up face to face in a straight line seems to restrict this for using in standard D&D. Are these two parts essential?

Secondly, these base types of soldiers are assuming they are all humans, since it is based on the troy story and all. Can this be easily changed to account for different races and monsters, like orcs, goblins, ogres, giants, drow, elves, dwarves, etc?



p.s. I am still looking all over the net for the Conan PDF if anyone can help

[J.Gellert]

I don't know this Trojan War book, but I think that the Conan RPG has mass combat rules, but they don't seem to be on the main book - also the 'Cry Havoc' sourcebook by Malhavoc Press (which includes background/campaign stuff for running wars, too).

[kjones]

I've never used them, but you could take a look at these rules. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1566)

[elliott20]

If you're not planning on too epic a scale, perhaps you could make character sheets treating a company of troops as one entity (with lots of hit points). Perhaps look up rules for mobs and swarms and tweak them to suit your needs?

This.

actually, I think works BETTER if you're doing more epic level struggles.

The way I would do it is to do a number of things first.

1. set up the battle map.

Create strategic locations that your army can be at. i.e. fortress, fortress front open field, fortress right mountain, etc. Each location has it's own unique conditions.

2. set up the different armies.

one side = one army = one character sheet

as for the character sheet itself, I would try to keep it more general than make it a calculation exercise that has you figuring out average ACs and all that stuff.

here's what I think you'll need

HP: the general cohesion of the army itself. (Mob and swarm rules) Take the average HD of the unit, and use that as base. (so an army that is basically level 1 peons will be have 8 hit points) To take into account size differences, give the larger side some bonuses based on scale. How much bonus you give will determine how important you make army size. After that, modify it by adding the commander's leadership score. (or if none, their CHA modifier)

Attack: instead of BAB and Damage, you now just have damage output. I'd recommend that you standardize it with the HD.

Defense: Instead of AC, you get a defense score that reduces the attack roll. Same thing as HP and Attack, you want take into account the commander in some way.

[elliott20]

for attacking, if you're going with the basic set up I've gone with, have it work in this way:

melee: two units will occupy the same location, and all damage / defense happens simultaneously.

range: you can only attack a unit that is in an adjacent location to yours. (Unless your army supposedly have some long range ability)

For this purpose, perhaps you should separate a unit's attack into range and melee.

[SirKazum]

I've worked out a mass-combat system for d20 that played pretty well (IMHO) the couple times I've used it. It's largely based on using statistical averages and then injecting some random variation into these averages, oh and a Fort save for casualties as well. For the sake of avoiding reposting, here's (http://www.dragonavenue.com/forums/viewthread/1508/) the link to it in another board. The last part (morale and command) still needs to be translated from Portuguese - maybe now I'll have the incentive to do that...

[Thane of Fife]

p.s. I am still looking all over the net for the Conan PDF if anyone can help

Your google-fu needs work, grasshopper.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/conanmasscombat.pdf

(It was the first site under "Conan mass combat")

[Anxe]

I just downloaded (legally at Drive-Through RPG) a copy of this book, and am by the forces section. So far I am liking what I am reading. However, there are some issues I ee.

First off, the needing a stronghold and having to line up face to face in a straight line seems to restrict this for using in standard D&D. Are these two parts essential?

Secondly, these base types of soldiers are assuming they are all humans, since it is based on the troy story and all. Can this be easily changed to account for different races and monsters, like orcs, goblins, ogres, giants, drow, elves, dwarves, etc?



p.s. I am still looking all over the net for the Conan PDF if anyone can help

A stronghold isn't necessary. It's more just refering to a place for wounded or demoralized troops to retreat to and come back the next day if the battle goes on for very long. And of course lining up isn't essential. It's just unclear what the advantage of a surprise flanking manuver would be. I suggest you make up some bonus for a surprise attack. Forces already lose their DEX bonus, so a simple attack and damage bonus would be sufficient. Maybe a morale penalty to the first force the ambush attacks.

The system could easily be changed for different medium and small sized races. I don't know how larger sized army forces would work. I'm sure you can make something up though.

The figured out their formula for how much HP a force gets and it is effectively 1/6 of the total HP of the soldiers in the force.

If you are going to be using the Trojan War rules be sure to tell your players about the feats in the book. Lion of the Field, Distinctive, and Battlefield Magic would be the most important ones.

[Pika...]

Your google-fu needs work, grasshopper.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/conanmasscombat.pdf

(It was the first site under "Conan mass combat")

Many thanks.

I tried so many wording combination, but not that one...





A stronghold isn't necessary. It's more just refering to a place for wounded or demoralized troops to retreat to and come back the next day if the battle goes on for very long. And of course lining up isn't essential. It's just unclear what the advantage of a surprise flanking manuver would be. I suggest you make up some bonus for a surprise attack. Forces already lose their DEX bonus, so a simple attack and damage bonus would be sufficient. Maybe a morale penalty to the first force the ambush attacks.

The system could easily be changed for different medium and small sized races. I don't know how larger sized army forces would work. I'm sure you can make something up though.

The figured out their formula for how much HP a force gets and it is effectively 1/6 of the total HP of the soldiers in the force.

If you are going to be using the Trojan War rules be sure to tell your players about the feats in the book. Lion of the Field, Distinctive, and Battlefield Magic would be the most important ones.

Thanks for the information!

I was thinking I might be able to just have an "escape point", like a passage or cave opening to the underdark which could function as the fortress point. But knowing they are not essential makes things a lot easier.

And the 1/6 thing could have been useful a few hours ago. I spent the entire day working on adjusting the rules for each major race/power in my world.

Since you seem familiar with these rules, mind giving me your opinion on what I have done so far?

Here is what I've done so far:

(Please note this is going into a binder)

Index:

Index:

Pages
1.What Players Need to Know + New Troop Qualities.


Tab 01: Centaur Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 02: Derro Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 03: Drow Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 04: Duergar Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 05: Dwarf (Deep) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 06: Dwarf (Gold) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 07: Dwarf (Hill) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 08: Dwarf (Mountain) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 09: Dwarf (O-Stili) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 10: Dwarf (Shield) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 11: Dwarf (Urdunnir) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 12: Elf (High) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 13: Elf (Wood) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 14: Elf (Wild) Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 15: Gnoll Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 16: Goblin Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 17: Hobgoblin Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 18: Lizardfolk Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 19: Minotaur Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 20: Ogre Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 21: Orc Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 22: Troglodyte Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.

Tab 23: Wererat Military Information, Racial Adjustments/Special Rules, & Sample Units.



What players need to know:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/untitledwhatplayersneedtoknow.jpg



Centaur:

Centaur Military Information:


Centaur Military Information


-As creatures who generally live in tribal hunter-gather societies, and who do not have (or have any desire to form) an official nation on the planet of Origin, centaurs do not form structured armies. However, when an aggressive and/or destructive power attempts to enter the centaurs' lands (see The Centaur Hunting Ground on my website) tribes will almost certainly gather together to force the foreign threat out of their cherished lands.

-Most centaur tribes number no more than a hundred, most ranging from 50-80 strong. Therefore, each tribe essentially functions as it's own Force within the above type of makeshift army. Children are left behind or sent to the safety of elven lands along with those unable to fight, and a handful of warriors to serve as protection.

-These individual Forces are led by the tribe's druid leader. This leader also serves as the tribe's/force's representative among the other tribes/forces. However, his BAB is not greater than the average of his tribe/force, so is not treated as a Captain (see Trojan Wars p.73). Because of this, and the centaurs' unique society belief in personal freedom, centaur forces receive the Independent feat (see Trojan Wars p.73) as a bonus feat.

-When fighting alongside their elven allies centaur tribes/forces usually serve as cavalry and/or shock-troops.

-Thanks to their close ties with their elven neighbors, centaur tribes are usually equipped with elven weapons (world renowned for the fine craftsmanship and deadliness). These weapons (and other goods) are most often obtained in their trades while in either the High Elf Kingdom, or the Avariel Lands. This means all centaur Forces are equipped with Master Work weapons (adding +1 to their BAB with manufactured weapons).


Centaur Racial Adjustments/Special Rules:


Centaur Racial Adjustments/Special Rules


-These individual Forces are led by the tribe's druid leader. This leader also serves as the tribe's/force's representative among the other tribes/forces. However, his BAB is not greater than the average of his tribe/force, so is not treated as a Captain (see Trojan Wars p.73). Because of this, and the centaurs' unique societial belief in personal freedom, centaur forces receive the Independent feat (see Trojan Wars p.73) as a bonus feat.

-For obvious reasons all centaur Forces receive the Chariots feat (see p.76) as a bonus feat.

-Centaur have four levels of Monstrous Humanoid, giving them four Monstrous Human Racial HD (4d8) and a +4 BAB. To Represent this centaur forces receive an additional four to their Hit Point Multiplier (see Trojan Wars p.72) (Green goes from a x1 to a x5, Trained goes from a x2 to a x6, etc.), and receive a +4 to their BAB.

-Centaur have Dark Vision, so therefore can go on fighting into the night without issue.

-Centaurs have a +3 natural armor bonus.

-Centaurs are well know for their amazing strength, on average being slightly less than twice the strength of an average human (they have a +8 racial modifier, giving them a +4 modifier). To represent this centaur forces double their Damage Multiplier.

-Thanks to their close ties with their elven neighbors, centaur tribes are usually equipped with elven weapons (world renowned for the fine craftsmanship and deadliness). These weapons (and other goods) are most often obtained in their trades while in either the High Elf Kingdom, or the Avariel Lands. This means all centaur Forces are equipped with Master Work weapons (adding +1 to their BAB with manufactured weapons).

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/untitled2.jpg



Centaur Sample Unit #1:


Centaur Sample Unit #1


-Tribe's Hunters/Warriors

These make up the bulk of a centaur Force during times of conflict. They fall under the Trained Troop Quality (see p.71 of Trojan War). Although war is not not frequent for centaur tribes, the tribe's hunters are extremely skilled.

Note: Remember that they receive two levels of Warrior for this.


Tribe's Hunters/Warriors
Here are the stat-blocks for a Force of 50 (using the Realistic ratio) Trained Centaur Hunters/Warriors, armed with elven M.W. Longsword and elven M.W. Longbow, equipped with leather armor, and without a true Captain.

Race: Centaur (See my Centaur Racial Adjustments/Special Rules page)
Quality: Trained
Hit Points: 300 (50 x6 Centaur Modified Trained Quality)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 leather armor, +3 natural armor)
Base Speed: 50 ft. (+25 ft. ever fourth turn)
Initiative Modifier: +0
Base Attack Bonus: +6 (+7 with elven M.W. manufactured weapons)
Base Damage: 1d6 (hooves), 1d8 (elven M.W. Longsword), 1d8 (elven M.W. Composite longbow. Rang: 110 ft.)
Damage Multiplier: x6 (Centaur Modified Trained Quality)
Morale Modifier: 0 (Centaur Modified Trained Quality)
Battlefield Feats: Charge (Maneuver), Chariots (Bonus)(Quality), Enflamed (Quality), Fleet of Foot (Quality), Hurl Missiles (Maneuver), Independent (Bonus)(Quality)
Special: +3 Natural Armour, Darkvision, Chariots as Bonus Feat, Independent as bonus feat, M.W. Weapons.


Note: Remember that squares are 30 ft. x 30 ft. for this mass combat system. Account for this with their ranged attacks.




Orcs:

Orc Military Information:


Orc Military Information

-Most Orcs and Orc Forces are treated as Green Troop Quality units/forces (see Trojan War p.71). Although it says Green forces are untrained, I am doing this to reflect the horde structure and image of the orcs, and to attempt to appropriate balance them (their power and numbers) with that of their main foe (the high elves, and their numbers and power).

-The Orc Mega Tribe of Flanes is essentially the only orc settlement on Flanes. This is mostly due to this ancient tribe having a long history, dating back to the Age of the Savage Races, of destroying and/or enslaving smaller and weaker orc tribes. This was finalized during the Last Great Human War as many orcs fled to this mega tribe's banner to avoid the mayhem ensuing on the planet. This finally gave the current “Big Boss” at the time the orcpower to finally clear the continent of Flanes of any rival tribes.

This persecution continues whenever an attempt by orcs to settle outside the Mega Orc Tribe is made, though the latest Big Boss has been somewhat lenient on groups of orc mercenaries roaming the continent as long as they do not attempt to permanently settle outside his domain.



Orc Racial Adjustments/Special Rules:


Orc Racial Adjustments/Special Rules


--The vast disparity between the orcs' and elves' level of craftsmanship and technology has also contributed to the elves' ability to keep the orcs at bay from their forests for millenia. While the high elves have some of the most valued and deadly crafted metal weapons on Origin, the orcs remain at a stone age level of craftsmanship (see the DMG p.144).

Their weapons are made of bone, flint, or stone, and the best armor an average orc will ever get is leather or studded leather. Bone/Flint/Stone weapons give a -2 to attack and damage rolls (to a minimum of 1 point of damage). To reflect this, orcs take a -2 to their Base Attack Bonus and to their Base Damage (see Trojan War p.73) (before multiplying!).

Note: If a unit of orcs has captured or traded for metal weapons remove these penalties.

-Orcs have Darkvision to 60 ft., so are able to fight into the night without issue.

-Orcs have a +4 Strength racial modifier (for a +2 check modifier), so to reflect this they receive a +2 damage rolls.

-Orcs have a -2 Charisma modifier (for a -1 check modifier), so to reflect this they receive a -1 to their Base Morale.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/untitled3.jpg



Orc Sample Unit #1: Orc Warrior Band


Orc Sample Unit #1: Orc Warrior Band


-Orc Warrior Band

This type of Force (see Trojan War p.71) makes up almost all of the Mega Orc Tribe's army, and by extension almost all of it's male adult population.

They are under the command of the tribe's Big Boss, and unless one of his adepts or higher-ups chooses to accompany a particular force/unit they act without commandersnot that their. Not that their tactics require much leadership...



Orc Warrior Band
Here are the stat-blocks for a Force of 500 (using the Realistic ratio) Green(Orc Modified) Orc Warriors, armed with crude flint axes, and equipped with basic leather armor. They are without any form of captain Captain, with the basic orders (see Trojan Wars p.74) of “destroy the enemy”.

Race: Orc (See my Orc Racial Adjustments/Special Rules page)
Quality: Green
Hit Points: 500 (500 x1 Green Quality)
Armor Class: 12 (+2 leather armor)
Base Speed: 30 ft. (+25 ft. ever fourth turn)
Initiative Modifier: +1
Base Attack Bonus: -1 (-2 due to Stone Age weapons, +1 Enflamed feat)
Base Damage: 1d12[-2] (flint greataxe)
Damage Multiplier: x2 (Green Quality)
Morale Modifier: -4 (Orc Modified Green Quality)
Battlefield Feats: Enflamed (Quality), Fleet of Foot (Quality).
Special: Darkvision, Stone Age weapons.


Note: Remember that squares are 30 ft. x 30 ft. for this mass combat system. Account for this with their ranged attacks.



Orc Sample Unit #2: Orc “Archie” Band


Orc Sample Unit #2: Orc “Archie” Band


-Orc “Archie” Band

This type of Force (see Trojan War p.71) makes up a much smaller percent of the Mega Orc Tribe's army compared to your average warrior band. They are usually made up of smaller and weaker orcs who do not want to be up int the front lines of battle. They have attempted to mimic the elves' “cowardness” strategies by crafting makeshift primitive bows, and sharpened wooden arrows to be able to stay way back on the battlefield , wet still kill thing and not piss-off Big Boss.

Unlike warrior bands, “archie” bands are usually led by an orc captain. Usually an orc who takes a particular interest in this style of fighting, and who has most likely gathered his “followers” and crafted their primitive weapons himself.



Orc “Archie” Band
Here are the stat-blocks for a Force of 100 (using the Realistic ratio) Green(Orc Modified) Orc Archer Warriors, armed with primitive bows, crude flint axes in case something gets too close, and equipped with basic leather armor. They are led by a Captain with an additional level of warrior (an additional +1 BAB, and a total of 8hp) making the unit 101 strong.

Race: Orc (See my Orc Racial Adjustments/Special Rules page)
Quality: Green
Hit Points: 100 (100 x1 Green Quality) + 8(Captain)
Armor Class: 12 (+2 leather armor)
Base Speed: 30 ft.
Initiative Modifier: +1
Base Attack Bonus: -2 (-2 due to Stone Age weapons)
Base Damage: 1d12[-2] (flint greataxe), 1d8[-2] (primitive longbow, range 100 ft.)
Damage Multiplier: x2 (Green Quality)
Morale Modifier: -4 (Orc Modified Green Quality)
Battlefield Feats: Hurl Missiles (Maneuver), Fleet of Foot (Quality).
Special: Darkvision, Stone Age weapons.


Note: Remember that squares are 30 ft. x 30 ft. for this mass combat system. Account for this with their ranged attacks.

[Pika...]

Oops. p.s., can you please tell me if the book goes into any detail on how to capture enemies? I saw a feat for improving said action/command/whatever, and it describes the Normal section of the feat saying the unit would normally need to leave and provoke, but I can not find the basic rules and such anywhere.

I am basically looking for it to figure out how to work the drow. I am thinking perhaps have crossbowmen cause an additional 1d4 hps of damage, but instead of those dying they fall asleep/unconscious and are "recovered" at the end of the battle. As for melee units, well perhaps on the first round of combat they would have already had some drow poison smeared on their blades/weapons, doing the same extra 1d4 sleep damage? Perhaps the command can use a command to have them redose their weapons, but they can not attack or be attacked with melee that turn to succeed?

Also, I need to know because the gnolls and orcs in my world are also heavy on slave taking.

[Indon]

At high levels (I'd say 15+, when PCs sufficiently blow away low-level characters), you could model things after how it goes in Exalted: model military units as single units, give them the stats of their commanders, and use the troop count as extra HP. For the HD's, use the unit's average HD - so commoners would grant D4s, warriors D8s, etc.

5 troops: 1 extra HD.
20 troops: 2 extra HD.
50 troops: 3 extra HD.
100 troops: 4 extra HD.
300 troops: 5 extra HD.
1K troops: 6 extra HD.
2K troops: 7 extra HD.
5K troops: 8 extra HD.
Each add'l 3K troops: +1 HD. (this part may need tweaking)

Each time the unit (whose HP consists of the commander's HP + the extra unit HP) runs out of health, this signifies the unit's size has dropped by 1. The unit's HP is now full, minus 1 HD.

This system would only work for levels in which the players' skill basically trivializes foot soldiers, though.