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Otodetu
2009-07-12, 07:53 PM
I looked about for existing threads, bit none gave me the info i wanted to find, so i ask here:

By raw you cannot use supernatural abilities with an activation time of a standard action in a grapple.


If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Activate a Magic Item
You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Cast a Spell
You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Damage Your Opponent
While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your

grapple check.
Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

Draw a Light Weapon
You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check.

Escape from Grapple
You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).

Move
You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the

grapple.
Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.

Retrieve a Spell Component
You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check.

Pin Your Opponent
You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

Break Another’s Pin
If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned.

Use Opponent’s Weapon
If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a -4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action).

You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action.


I understand the crunch involved here, but following the logic would not also spell-like abilities also be restricted in a grapple?
(by my understanding a spell-like ability is treated as a silent and stilled variant of the spell it mimics in this sort of situation, but as i understand raw, that is very wrong...)


Another ting:


Ethereal Jaunt (Su)

A phase spider can shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a free action, and shift back again as a move action (or during a move action). The ability is otherwise identical with ethereal jaunt (caster level 15th).

This ability uses a move action to phase to the ethereal plane, by raw not usable in a grapple, the wizard that has to roll a concentration check and speak words of power to get his spell of is able to do that, but the creature that can mentally with much less effort travel to another plane is restricted?
(i guess that by raw said phase spider can attempt to move the grapple, and activate its ability as part of that move... but not just use it... :smallannoyed: then again that move is actually a standard action... wtf?)

Are there situations subjected to house rulings on the spot based on what makes sense, or are there any official statements?

9mm
2009-07-12, 08:11 PM
for the purposes of grapple, SLAs count as spells; with all the trials and tribulations that come with it.

erikun
2009-07-12, 08:13 PM
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attemptone of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
Colored sections are the relevant parts. The red text implies that you can preform other actions - only the actions listed take the place of an attack. The blue further supports that the list is just replacing attacks - I'm not seeing anything stating you cannot take a non-attack standard action, or a move action.

As for anything official? Not sure that it's ever came up before. I'd just assumed that the ability to teleport or turn into mist would allow you to get out of grappling, after all.

The idea of grappling a vampire so that it doesn't turn into mist is rather amusing though, I will admit. :smallamused:

Quietus
2009-07-12, 08:18 PM
I'd just say "Yeah, it turns into mist/phases to another plane/whatever". As for spell-likes, treat them as spells. If they pass their concentration check, they cast the spell-like ability.

Otodetu
2009-07-12, 09:39 PM
The issue is that i read this in the official q\a thread here on the forum (it is a sticky)

and one of the first questions is this:

Reposted from the previous thread.

Q. 1
D&D 3.5

In general, are you prohibited from using supernatural abilities in a grapple?

the answer is:

A 1 Generally yes.
Quote:
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions.

* Activate a Magic Item
* Attack Your Opponent
* Cast a Spell
* Damage Your Opponent
* Draw a Light Weapon
* Escape from Grapple
* Move
* Pin Your Opponent
* Break Another’s Pin
* Use Opponent’s Weapon

Quote:
Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.
If a Supernatural ability requires a standard action, you cannot use it during a grapple; only those specific actions listed are permitted. Supernatural abilities which are useable as free actions may be performed, however.

As you are limited to a limited scope of actions i think the developers forgot to add support for monsters and special creatures in the grapple chapter.

On the vampire issue: yes, by core you can grapple a vampire to prevent it from turning to mist, or a phase spider to prevent it from going to the ethereal plane (then again there is nothing stating that you cannot grapple a creature that has turned to mist with the gaseous form spell besides personal interpretation of the flavor text, but that is just being difficult i guess.)

What i wanna know is if the developers have this "no supernatural powers in a grapple" limit for a reason.

On a side-note, the shadow caster from tomb of magic starts with using its mysteries as spells, then as spell-like abilities, and later supernatural abilities, this means that the higher level the shadow caster becomes, the less powers can it use in a grapple to defend itself...

Otodetu
2009-07-14, 03:00 PM
Ummm, anyone have some views?

If not i guess i will just treat both as being freely accessible in a grapple.
Spell-like abilities requiring a fitting concentration check
Supernatural abilities just requiring whatever action designated in the ability entry.

Eldariel
2009-07-14, 03:10 PM
Ummm, anyone have some views?

If not i guess i will just treat both as being freely accessible in a grapple.
Spell-like abilities requiring a fitting concentration check
Supernatural abilities just requiring whatever action designated in the ability entry.

This is the most reasonable way to do it. The general problem with grapple is the limited scope of actions which means that...well, almost every class ability and monster ability is unusable there. Also, they botched up Grapple-check definitions something severe.

Like, technically you should be able to PA up to your BAB without any penalties on your Grapple-check and deal the boosted UA damage, because yeah, Grapple-checks supposedly aren't attack rolls. This is why I suggest heavy handwaving and houseruling on the fly whenever grappling - go with what seems to be the most sensible thing.

ericgrau
2009-07-14, 03:39 PM
^ Twisting someone's arm is different from recklessly swinging at them really hard.

<Ahem> Anyway, as said, SLA's and supernatural abilities are treated like spells by the rules. They also don't have any somatic or verbal component, which helps in a grapple or pin. Just make the DC 20 + (effective) spell level concentration check and you can use it during a grapple.

Otodetu
2009-07-14, 05:35 PM
I agree with your concentration logic.

Power attack affecting damage at no penalty in a grapple is just pure cheese, and thereby disallowed, and should be disallowed in every sane game.

ericgrau
2009-07-14, 05:47 PM
I had to reread Eldariel's post just now to see what was going on. A penalty free PA is silly enough, but basically I meant that you shouldn't be able to PA at all when dealing grapple damage. If you make an unarmed or natural attack (attack roll, -4 penalty to hit) during a grapple OTOH then you could PA.

Talic
2009-07-14, 05:47 PM
Like, technically you should be able to PA up to your BAB without any penalties on your Grapple-check and deal the boosted UA damage, because yeah, Grapple-checks supposedly aren't attack rolls. This is why I suggest heavy handwaving and houseruling on the fly whenever grappling - go with what seems to be the most sensible thing.

No, you can't.


Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.Emphasis mine.

If you can only do it before you make attack rolls... And grapple checks aren't attack rolls? You can't do it before grapple checks.

Eldariel
2009-07-14, 05:58 PM
No, you can't.

Emphasis mine.

If you can only do it before you make attack rolls... And grapple checks aren't attack rolls? You can't do it before grapple checks.

You can do one attack roll and use the remaining iteratives for grapple-checks just fine though. Also, "before making attack rolls" can be read as a clarification that you can't do that after making attacks without forbidding doing it without doing any attacks. Either way, it doesn't matter - point is, Grapple-check definitions and the checks themselves suck.

ericgrau
2009-07-14, 06:02 PM
I think that implies that both the benefits and penalties of PA only apply to attacks with attack rolls. So in the above example it'd apply only to that 1 attack. Sure, you can read 500 different rules overly-literally but then 98% of people are in 1 of 2 camps:
1. That's not what the rule actually says at all. You're being too literal.
2. That is what the rule says, but there's no way I'm allowing anything so incredibly silly.

Maybe you're in camp #2 but I don't want to split hairs over it. It wouldn't bother me at all if I was playing in a campaign where the DM ruled it that way, b/c really it doesn't change things for me at all.

Eldariel
2009-07-14, 06:45 PM
I think that implies that both the benefits and penalties of PA only apply to attacks with attack rolls. So in the above example it'd apply only to that 1 attack. Sure, you can read 500 different rules overly-literally but then 98% of people are in 1 of 2 camps:
1. That's not what the rule actually says at all. You're being too literal.

I think it's very clear what the rule says though. It tells you to add PA damage to all melee damage rolls. Successful grapple-check allows you to deal your unarmed damage, which is a melee damage roll. I don't see what part of that is ambiguous.

But this is all besides the point. Who the **** cares what people allow or don't allow? My point was that Grapple-rules as written are laden with oversights, things not covered and poorly written rules and therefore should be treated with a grain of salt and a heavy dose of homebrew (such as not allowing PA damage to be added on Grapple-checks, or my preferred method, applyign appropriate penalties to the Grapple-check - I find it best to just similarize Grapple-check to attack roll so all the freaky "avoiding penalties"-stuff doesn't happen).

Yora
2009-09-16, 04:32 PM
I think I finally got how Improved Grab and Constrict works, and would like to know if I really got it right this time. (Doesn't seem so complicated at all.)

Let's say we have a Chuul fighting... a Fighter.

- The chuul makes his first attack, hits, and deals 2d6+5 points of damage.
- With Improved Grab, as a free action, he makes a grapple check and succeeds.
- He immediately deals 3d6+5 constrict damage.
- The chuul is now grappling and loses it's Dex bonus to AC against any bystanders.

Q1: That's still only a standard attack and a free action. A creature with two weapon attacks per round could now make a second grapple check with the usual -5 penalty for a second attack in a round.
But you can only attack with a natural weapon once per round. So it can't grapple again with the same claw. But you can make normal attacks with a -4 penalty while grappling, so could the Chuul do that with his second claw?

Then it's the fighters turn and lets say he doesn't get out of the grapple.

Then it's the chuuls turn again, and there are two options:
1. Attack the grappled fighter with Claw #1 and deal 2d6+5 points of damage.
2. Make a grapple check and take the "Damage your opponent" option.
2.a. Deal 3d6+5 constrict damage.
2.b. Deal 1d4+5 nonleathal unarmed damage and 3d6+5 constrict damage.
2.c. Deal 2d6+5 natural attack damage and 3d6ü5 constirct damage.

Constrict says a.
Grapple says b.
My intuition says c. (As monks can deal normal attack damage.)
Q2: Which one of them is it?

Q3: Improved Grab says a Chuul can transfer a grappled creature to its tentacles in the following round. Paralyzing Tentacles says transfering is a move action. So if the chuul makes an attack and grabs, without having moved before, can he transfer in the same round or only in the following?

(Q4: Does the chuul continue to grapple a creature with it's tentacles? Just with a normal grapple check?)

Sophismata
2009-09-17, 06:32 AM
I spent 3 or 4 hours two days ago going through the grapple rules, internet forums, monster listings and the Wizards clarifications in order to work the whole thing out with regard (particularly) to monster grappling.

The rules are needlessly complex, try too hard to cover every situation and fail at doing so, and in a few cases are contradictory. Regardless, it is my opinion that:

* You can take actions not specifically mentioned in the grapple rules while grappling. This is important with regards to attack actions, but would also apply to Supernatural abilites. As an additional bonus, this is not contradicted by the rules, and it makes sense.



Let's say we have a Chuul fighting... a Fighter.

This is all my opinion, but the reasons for specific 'rulings' can be provided if you want:


- The chuul makes his first attack, hits, and deals 2d6+5 points of damage.
- With Improved Grab, as a free action, he makes a grapple check and succeeds.
- He immediately deals 3d6+5 constrict damage.
- The chuul is now grappling and loses it's Dex bonus to AC against any bystanders.

Let's say the chuul begins his turn threatening the fighter.

* Full Round Action - Full Attack
* The chuul makes his first claw attack.
* The attack hits.
* As a free action, the chuul makes a grapple check. He does not take -20 on this check to avoid the consequences of grappling.
* He succeeds. He no longer threatens an area, and loses Dex bonus to AC. He deals 3d6+5 constrict damage.
* The fighter is dragged into the chuul's space, and this movement does not provoke AoO's.
* The chuul has one more claw attack.
* He is grappling the fighter, and so can attack him. He no longer threatens an area and cannot attack anyone else.
* He attacks the fighter. Attacking a grappled foe is at -4, and the weapon types are limited. Natural Weapons are allows.
* The attack hits.
* As a free action, the chuul makes a grapple check. He does not take -20 on the check, and doing so would be pointless. (This is the only thing I cannot really justify, but seems to be correct in light of other rules and the workings of larger monsters).
* He succeeds. He deals constrict damage.
* He has the option of making a 5-ft step. The fighter is dragged with him.



Then it's the chuuls turn again, and there are two options:
1. Attack the grappled fighter with Claw #1 and deal 2d6+5 points of damage.
2. Make a grapple check and take the "Damage your opponent" option.
2.a. Deal 3d6+5 constrict damage.
2.b. Deal 1d4+5 nonleathal unarmed damage and 3d6+5 constrict damage.
2.c. Deal 2d6+5 natural attack damage and 3d6ü5 constirct damage.

A monster seems to have two options when in a grapple. Their standard Natural Attack Routine (Attack your Opponent), or making a Full Attack with their BAB in order to get attack actions (Damage your Opponent). In this case:

* Full Round Action - Full Attack (Natural Weapon Attack Routine)
* Claws are at -4 to hit the fighter.
* Does not threaten an area, cannot attack other party members.
* Each hit allows a grapple check to deal additional constrict damage.
* 5ft step.


Alternatively:

* Full Round Action, using BAB. Chuul gains two attack actions, for grapple checks these are at +17 and +12.
* This is the better option for the chuul, given that grapple checks are normally easier than attacks at -4.
* Each grapple check deals claw and constrict damage if successful.
*5ft step.



The tentacles are special (one of those annoying grapple exception/contradiction things).

* May transfer a creature to tentacles as a move action.
* Can no longer make grapple checks to damage this creature (using damage your opponent). In fact, the chuul no longer need instigate grapple checks at all, but still needs to oppose the creature's checks. It uses its normal grapple bonus.
* If creature is grappled at the start of the chuul's turn, it must make the fort save.
* Chuul is still grappling. If he takes -20 on the grapple checks he can hold the creature in the tentacles and once again threaten an area and gain Dex to AC. Otherwise, he does not threaten and does not gain Dex to AC. (This is a rather whimisical extension of the intent of rules regarding the chuul, and has some thin justification.) Alternatively, I like Eldariel's ruling. The chuul is taking -20 without having to take -20 - he counts as only grappling with part of his body.
* He can take actions normally. He may attack creatures he threatens or creatures he is grappling, as normal. If he opts to use improved grab when attacking tentacle-grappled creatures, they are removed from the tentacles and are once again grappled normally.

Eldariel
2009-09-17, 06:57 AM
You do realize this is few months old, right? Anyways, given the obvious issues with the Natural Weapon-system, Grapple is even more needlessly complicated than otherwise. I do believe I can help you though. First, relevant rules passages:
Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple)
Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab)
Constrict (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict)



I think I finally got how Improved Grab and Constrict works, and would like to know if I really got it right this time. (Doesn't seem so complicated at all.)

Let's say we have a Chuul fighting... a Fighter.

- The chuul makes his first attack, hits, and deals 2d6+5 points of damage.
- With Improved Grab, as a free action, he makes a grapple check and succeeds.
- He immediately deals 3d6+5 constrict damage.
- The chuul is now grappling and loses it's Dex bonus to AC against any bystanders.

The Chuul can avoid losing AC by taking -20 to its Grapple-check, but yes, this is how it usually goes.


Q1: That's still only a standard attack and a free action. A creature with two weapon attacks per round could now make a second grapple check with the usual -5 penalty for a second attack in a round.
But you can only attack with a natural weapon once per round. So it can't grapple again with the same claw. But you can make normal attacks with a -4 penalty while grappling, so could the Chuul do that with his second claw?

Technically as I understand it, you'd need to have a weapon that enables taking iteratives to be able to do multiple Grapple-checks for damage. This would usually be Unarmed Strike.

As Chuul doesn't have such an attack nor Rake, I do believe it would be limited to just one Grapple-check to deal damage per turn. That said, it would not really be unreasonable to give it two of them and indeed, RAW is slightly unclear on whether you can take iteratives in Grapple without having them otherwise. I do not think they are expected to be taking any.


Then it's the fighters turn and lets say he doesn't get out of the grapple.

Then it's the chuuls turn again, and there are two options:
1. Attack the grappled fighter with Claw #1 and deal 2d6+5 points of damage.
2. Make a grapple check and take the "Damage your opponent" option.
2.a. Deal 3d6+5 constrict damage.
2.b. Deal 1d4+5 nonleathal unarmed damage and 3d6+5 constrict damage.
2.c. Deal 2d6+5 natural attack damage and 3d6ü5 constirct damage.

Constrict says a.
Grapple says b.
My intuition says c. (As monks can deal normal attack damage.)

Q2: Which one of them is it?

C is correct; this is apparent from the Improved Grab and Constrict descriptions. Rules Compendium further clarifies this.


Q3: Improved Grab says a Chuul can transfer a grappled creature to its tentacles in the following round. Paralyzing Tentacles says transfering is a move action. So if the chuul makes an attack and grabs, without having moved before, can he transfer in the same round or only in the following?

SRD lacks the "following round" limitation entirely; as such it seems like something the writers simply forgot. By SRD, it's perfectly legal to move the grabbed opponent to the tentacles. Lacking Reading Comprehension. Yeah, next turn as it's specifically spelled out in Improved Grab.


(Q4: Does the chuul continue to grapple a creature with it's tentacles? Just with a normal grapple check?)

The Chuul needs to take no action with the tentacles; once the creature is moved to them (this isn't listed as requiring a Grapple-check; just a move action), the creature can try to escape the Tentacles as normal and is subject to the paralysing poison.

The interesting question is whether the Tentacles take the -20 to the Grapple-checks you'd normally incur for grappling with only one part of the body. However, they are specifically listed as grappling with the same strength as the claws, which leads me to believe that this is an exception and that they take no penalties.

AslanCross
2009-09-17, 07:04 AM
I think I finally got how Improved Grab and Constrict works, and would like to know if I really got it right this time. (Doesn't seem so complicated at all.)

Let's say we have a Chuul fighting... a Fighter.

- The chuul makes his first attack, hits, and deals 2d6+5 points of damage.
- With Improved Grab, as a free action, he makes a grapple check and succeeds.
- He immediately deals 3d6+5 constrict damage.
- The chuul is now grappling and loses it's Dex bonus to AC against any bystanders.

Q1: That's still only a standard attack and a free action. A creature with two weapon attacks per round could now make a second grapple check with the usual -5 penalty for a second attack in a round.
But you can only attack with a natural weapon once per round. So it can't grapple again with the same claw. But you can make normal attacks with a -4 penalty while grappling, so could the Chuul do that with his second claw?

Then it's the fighters turn and lets say he doesn't get out of the grapple.

Then it's the chuuls turn again, and there are two options:
1. Attack the grappled fighter with Claw #1 and deal 2d6+5 points of damage.
2. Make a grapple check and take the "Damage your opponent" option.
2.a. Deal 3d6+5 constrict damage.
2.b. Deal 1d4+5 nonleathal unarmed damage and 3d6+5 constrict damage.
2.c. Deal 2d6+5 natural attack damage and 3d6ü5 constirct damage.

Constrict says a.
Grapple says b.
My intuition says c. (As monks can deal normal attack damage.)
Q2: Which one of them is it?

Q3: Improved Grab says a Chuul can transfer a grappled creature to its tentacles in the following round. Paralyzing Tentacles says transfering is a move action. So if the chuul makes an attack and grabs, without having moved before, can he transfer in the same round or only in the following?

(Q4: Does the chuul continue to grapple a creature with it's tentacles? Just with a normal grapple check?)


Q1. If the grapple succeeds, I'd say the chuul just makes its second claw attack roll at a -4 penalty as it is already grappling. If it were allowed to make a second grapple attempt, that would result in a lot of scary damage, as the constrict damage comes automatically AGAIN. Keep in mind that the Chuul has the option of only using its claw to grapple, which penalizes it a whopping -20 to its grapple check, but allows it to function otherwise normally.

Q2. Remember that the grapple rules are written assuming PCs are performing the act, so it mentions nonlethal damage. C is correct; the Improved Grab rule actually states this:


A successful hold does not deal any damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well.

So if the Chuul maintains its grapple, it deals both claw damage and constrict damage. The long and short of it: constrictors = BAD NEWS in grapples.

Q3. Improved Grab is very clear in that the chuul can transfer the grappled opponent next turn; Paralytic Tentacles only says what kind of action it needs. It being a move action does not negate Improved Grab's clause.

Q4. The Chuul makes a grapple check again, but this time the tentacles deal no damage (since the Chuul squeezes with its claws). Now here's the part that I'm vague on---The Improved Grab rule (the glossary entry, not the Chuul's specific entry) says that as long as the creature has Constrict, it does constrict damage PLUS regular damage on EACH successful grapple check---so in my interpretation, the tentacles, while not dealing damage of their own, still secrete poison AND deal the constriction damage. On the other hand, the paralytic tentacles entry specifies that a tentacled creature gets chewed slowly by the Chuul's mandibles every round, so this might take the place of the constriction damage.

Hey, at least you didn't pick the behir as an example. It's probably the most complicated (and most dangerous) grappling monster. :smallamused:

Sophismata
2009-09-17, 07:19 AM
Hey, at least you didn't pick the behir as an example. It's probably the most complicated (and most dangerous) grappling monster. :smallamused:

Behir is much easier once you decide on how to handle natural attacks vs grapple checks - ie, Damage your Opponent and Attack your Opponent. Unlike a few other monsters (such as the chuul), it doesn't have quirky grapple exceptions.


Round 1, behir threatens fighter.

* Standard Action Attack
* Behir bites fighter.
* Behir hits.
* Improved Grab gives a free grapple check. Behir succeeds.
* Constrict damage applies. Fighter is dragged into Behir's space. This movement does not provoke. Behir and fighter now grappling, no longer threaten an area and lose dex to AC.
* Behir has 6 rake attacks, but cannot use them for two reasons. One, he has no target, as he was not grappling anything at the start of his turn. Two, he did not make a full attack.
* Behire takes a move action, running off with the fighter.

* Fighter makes a full attack (Full Round Action).
* Level 9 Fighter gets 2 attack actions.
* Tries to escape on both. Second check at -5.
* Fails both checks.
* Does not take constrict or grab damage for failing checks.


Round 2

* Full Round Action - behir does his natural attack routine.
* Behir has 7 natural weapons - his bite and 6 claws from rake.
* Behir bites fighter.
* Attack is at -4 (attack a grappled creature). Attack hits.
* Free action grapple check.
* Check succeeds. Behir does constrict damage.
* Rake attack. This attack does not take -4. Primary weapon (iffy, but makes sense).
* Behir gets 6 of these.
* 5ft step.

Alternatively

* Full Round Action - standard attack routine.
* Behir has BAB of +9, this gives two attack actions.
* Behir attempts to swallow whole (treated as a pin).
* Fails the first check at +25.
* Second check at +20 succeeds.
* Fighter takes bite damage and constrict damage (grapple check). He takes bite damage again from the swallow (swallow whole).
* Behir is no longer grappling. He threatens and gets dex to ac.
* Behir cleaves. He gets another bite attack (at -5) to a threatened or grappled creature.

* Fighter's turn - he takes 2d8 +8 bludgeoning damage and 8 acid damage.

Yora
2009-09-17, 07:39 AM
I think grapple isn't really that hard to do, it's just written overly detailed and stretched out, so it's hard to remember the last paragraph when you go on to the next.
And starting a grapple is needlessly complicated. Here's how I do it in my games:

- Make a grapple check instead of/as an attack.
- If the check succeeds, the attacker and defender are now grappling.
- On your turn, you may as either:
a.) attack normaly with a light weapon, unarmed strike, or natural weapon at -4 to attack.
b.) do any of the following with a successfull grapple check.
b. 1.) Deal unarmed strike or natural weapon damage. (Full attack possible.)
b. 2.) Escape from a pin or grapple. (Full attack possible)
b. 3.) Draw a light weapon as a move action.
b. 4.) Cast a spell, spell-like ability, supernatural or extraordinary ability.
b. 5.) Activate a magic item
b. 6.) Move at half speed (Move action)

This seems pretty easy to me. Anything important I forgot to make it work?

Sophismata
2009-09-17, 07:48 AM
This seems pretty easy to me. Anything important I forgot to make it work?

An attack action can be used to attack. So, just because Attack Your Opponent doesn't specifically mention that it is done in place of an attack, doesn't mean that it doesn't take the place of an attack. Because it's an attack.


IE, your full attack gives you a number of attack actions equal to BAB divided by 5, rounding up. You can split these between Damage Your Opponent, Escaping, Attacking Your Opponent, etc...