PDA

View Full Version : Simplified clone war explanation.



Froogleyboy
2009-07-13, 12:15 AM
Ok, I'm starting a clone wars campaign and one player knows only of the clone wars from the line "You fought in the clone wars?" from a new hope. what is a very simple way for me to explain the clone wars.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-13, 12:19 AM
Due to trade taxes, part of the Republic rebels, and uses vast Droid armies. To counter the Separatists, clone armies are created using the genetic template of Jango Fett, Boba's father.

This is all a plan by the Sith Dark Sidious who is playing both sides so that he may come out on top in full power no matter who wins.

The Republic wins, but it becomes the Empire in order to consolidate strength and make sure a rebellion never happens again. Clone troopers become stormtroopers.

Ichneumon
2009-07-13, 12:20 AM
I'm not sure if I'm entirely correct, I don't live in Star Wars anymore.

Let's see, some race made clones of a human money to work as an army for the senate, for money. The dark Jedi took control of the republic and wanted to turn in into an empire. Some resistent and the resistance had these clones fighting for them.

Tallis
2009-07-13, 12:23 AM
I'm not sure if I'm entirely correct, I don't live in Star Wars anymore.

Let's see, some race made clones of a human money to work as an army for the senate, for money. The dark Jedi took control of the republic and wanted to turn in into an empire. Some resistent and the resistance had these clones fighting for them.

The clones fought for the Republic (later the Empire) not the resistance.

Ichneumon
2009-07-13, 12:25 AM
The clones fought for the Republic (later the Empire) not the resistance.

Really? I'm confused.

Dixieboy
2009-07-13, 12:31 AM
Really? I'm confused.

The clones were 100% loyal to the senate, to such an extend that they were willing to kill jedis whom they had befriended during the execution of order 66.

Thrawn183
2009-07-13, 12:38 AM
Basically, the not-yet emperor engineered the revolution by the separatists so that he could consolidate power. His power mostly took the form of his clone army which was extremely loyal to him and, surprise surprise, the predecessors of storm troopers.

I mean, that's basically the entire prequal trilogy
Movie 1: Actions of the trade federation allows him to assume the highest position of power.
Movie 2: He has ordered the formation of an army loyal to him.
Movie 3: He simultaneously eliminates all those who are a threat to his power leaving no major power bases left except for his own.

Dark Herald
2009-07-13, 03:30 AM
The simplest way would be to show him the movies...

Palpatine was a senator from naboo. He got voted as the Supreme Chancelor. He secretly made an army of clones. He also secretly started up the rebellion. The rebellion used battle droids, and had some Sith working in it's ranks. The clone army was "discovered" at the same time the separatists were considering open war. Palpetine was granted emergency powers that he then used to legalize the purchase and use of the clone army to fight the separatists. Fear ruled the senate, and the vote passed, and Palpetine was left essentially controlling both sides in the conflict. The Jedi and the good guys were initially acting on the side of the Republic, but they were horified by what palpetine did/what was discovered about him, that he was a sith lord. Then he killed them all. At the and of the third movie the clone wars effectively ended, with the separatists' leaders beiong killed by Anakin and their armies defeated after the battle of Utapau/Kasshyk/the rest of the fights on other planets. The rebellion of the Original Trilogy was different, because Palpetine wasn't controlling it.

That paragraph should work, assuming they know about the old republic. If not, then Just read the Wikipedia Entries for those movies, cause there aren't really any spoilers.

Simple from the in universe viewpoint would be:
Jedi plus clones versus Droids and Sith, Clones win kill Jedi, Clones rule with iron fist.

kamikasei
2009-07-13, 03:51 AM
Were the Separatists connected to the Rebel Alliance? I hadn't thought so. (For example, the Mon Calamari were aided by the Republic in the Clone Wars against the Separatist Quarren.)

Basically: Palpatine, the Dark Lord of the Sith, infiltrated the Senate. He engineered a secession movement within the Republic who used vast droid armies. This allowed him (through proxies) to push through an expansion of the Republic's military using cloned troopers. The clones fought for the "good guys" in the Clone Wars, but it was all a feint: Palpatine used the threat he created to gather more and more power to himself to resolve it, eventually ending up with permanent emergency powers and a massive army he had secret control over, which he used to eliminate the Jedi, and declared himself Emperor.

Raltar
2009-07-13, 04:05 AM
Honestly? Tell him to take a weekend afternoon to watch Episodes 1, 2 and 3. They aren't horrible movies people make them out to be(though, I will admit they aren't nearly as good as the original trilogy). And if he can, watch the already released Clone Wars animated series(a bunch of 3-10 minute episodes) or even the current Clone Wars animated series.

SilverSheriff
2009-07-13, 04:12 AM
I can sum it up in a 7 words and 1 initial.:

Samuel L. Jackson is the worst Jedi EVER.:smalltongue:

bosssmiley
2009-07-13, 04:16 AM
Ok, I'm starting a clone wars campaign and one player knows only of the clone wars from the line "You fought in the clone wars?" from a new hope. what is a very simple way for me to explain the clone wars.

Show; don't tell, and let the player learn by doing. Have the player learn about what the Clone Wars are through play. Don't spoonfeed him a load of late Lucasian guff. Instead let him retain the sense of wonder and mystery that was evoked in the auditor by the original throwaway line in Star Wars.

The prequel trilogy (and all the accompanying cartoons, books, and other merchandise) failed to live up to the promise of a single line delivered by Alec Guinness. You must do better. :smallamused:

SilverSheriff
2009-07-13, 04:19 AM
Show; don't tell, and let the player learn by doing. Have the player learn about what the Clone Wars are through play. Don't spoon-feed him a load of late Lucasian guff. Instead let him retain the sense of wonder and mystery that was evoked in the auditor by the original throwaway line in Star Wars.

The prequel trilogy (and all the accompanying cartoons, books, and other merchandise) failed to live up to the promise of a single line delivered by Alec Guinness. You must do better. :smallamused:

I agree here, it might give him some sense of Immersion in the story. If he is playing a Jedi though you might want to spoon-feed him what being a Jedi is all about.

Cyclocone
2009-07-13, 04:44 AM
Show; don't tell, and let the player learn by doing. Have the player learn about what the Clone Wars are through play. Don't spoonfeed him a load of late Lucasian guff. Instead let him retain the sense of wonder and mystery that was evoked in the auditor by the original throwaway line in Star Wars.

The prequel trilogy (and all the accompanying cartoons, books, and other merchandise) failed to live up to the promise of a single line delivered by Alec Guinness. You must do better. :smallamused:

+1.

The New Trilogy was a really nasty shock for some of the more dedicated fans. Many of them just bottled the whole thing up inside and refuse to talk about it.
So if your prospective players enjoyed the old trilogy, they might not appreciate the new emo-Vader, and making them watch the movies could potentially be a major turn-off.

Slowly revealing the story through role-playing is vastly preferable to 6 hours in the company of GL's hapless dialogue.

Anyway, short movie summary:
There's this guy called Sid who's really evil, so he becomes a politician. Then, using robots and clones, Sid starts a war to increase his own political power, and eventually takes over the universe galaxy. Along the way he ruins the Jedi by either getting them killed or turning them into whiny emos.
Cue: The Old Trilogy.

Obrysii
2009-07-13, 07:36 AM
The prequel trilogy (and all the accompanying cartoons, books, and other merchandise) failed to live up to the promise of a single line delivered by Alec Guinness. You must do better. :smallamused:

Completely agree 100%. To me, when he mentions "the clone wars" ... it just evokes an awe and mystery. It makes me wonder just what it was - though I do not actually want to know what it was.

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-13, 08:24 AM
Palpatine, the evil emperor from the Original Trilogy, isn't emperor yet. But he likes giant armies, so he buys a droid army and a clone army. Then he gives one army to each side and has them fight.

Since he won the war, the people elect him Super President. He thinks this is pretty cool, so he decides to ratchet it up to Emperor. Some jedi are like "LOL NO" but he has a clone army shoot them.


EDIT: I agree, just leave it as is. There's enough silliness involved in the RPG genre as it is without making people watch SIX HOURS of backstory.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-13, 09:13 AM
Were the Separatists connected to the Rebel Alliance? I hadn't thought so. (For example, the Mon Calamari were aided by the Republic in the Clone Wars against the Separatist Quarren.)

Nope. The Petition of Two Thousand (2000 senators who didn't like what Palpatine was up to) asked him to cede power and return things to the ante bellum status quo and so forth; after he politely refused via late-night assassinations, the three remaining senators (Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, and Garm Bel Iblis) started the Alliance to Restore the Republic, using Mothma's oratory, Bail's resistance cells and training, and Bel Iblis's military background and forces.

(And yes, this was all well established in the EU before the movies-that-shall-not-be-named puked all over continuity. :smallamused:)

kamikasei
2009-07-13, 09:22 AM
Interesting.

Oh, and OP, if the issue is to bring a player in a CW-era game up to speed then all he really needs to know is "this is the Republic, that the Jedi served, which eventually becomes the Empire; there is a civil war, the separatist movement uses droid armies, the Republic has created a clone army in response, the Jedi are leading these clones to defend the Republic".

Artanis
2009-07-13, 10:12 AM
The simplest way would be to show him the movies...


Show; don't tell

These.

But if you absolutely, positively, MUST use words...

A bunch of ultra-super-megarich guys decided they didn't want to be part of the Republic, so they (literally) built an army of droids and started a war. The Republic didn't like this, so they cloned Boba Fett's dad - who was even more badass than Boba Fett, by the way - a couple gajillion times and had the clones follow Jedi around pretending to look useful as the Jedi chopped up droids with their lightsabers. Then Palpatine used the war as an excuse to get the Senate to name him Emperor, and promptly had Darth Vader and the clones kill off all the Jedi (they missed Yoda and Obi-Wan though).

A little while later, Darth Vader's wife had twins, and the rest is history.




The New Trilogy was a really nasty shock for some of the more dedicated fans. Many of them just bottled the whole thing up inside and refuse to talk about it.

Genndy Tatarkovski's series was pretty good though.

ColdSepp
2009-07-13, 10:48 AM
Nope. The Petition of Two Thousand (2000 senators who didn't like what Palpatine was up to) asked him to cede power and return things to the ante bellum status quo and so forth; after he politely refused via late-night assassinations, the three remaining senators (Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, and Garm Bel Iblis) started the Alliance to Restore the Republic, using Mothma's oratory, Bail's resistance cells and training, and Bel Iblis's military background and forces.

(And yes, this was all well established in the EU before the movies-that-shall-not-be-named puked all over continuity. :smallamused:)

Or, if you want to go for the UE version, it was all a plan by Palpatine to prepare the galaxy for the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. In fact, this was the only reason Mitth'raw'nuruodo joined up with the Empire.

*See Outbound Flight, Survivors Quest and Hand of Thrawn Duology

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-13, 11:47 AM
Or, if you want to go for the UE version, it was all a plan by Palpatine to prepare the galaxy for the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. In fact, this was the only reason Mitth'raw'nuruodo joined up with the Empire.

*See Outbound Flight, Survivors Quest and Hand of Thrawn Duology

Well, the Petition of Two Thousand was why the Alliance formed itself; why Palpatine maneuvered events such that the Alliance was formed is a different story. :smallamused:

ColdSepp
2009-07-13, 11:54 AM
Well, the Petition of Two Thousand was why the Alliance formed itself; why Palpatine maneuvered events such that the Alliance was formed is a different story. :smallamused:

Agreed. :smallamused:

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-13, 12:11 PM
I refuse to count Force Unleashed as canon.

Froogleyboy
2009-07-13, 12:14 PM
I've always had conflicted views about the clone wars. Who should i say is the good guys and the bad guys

Knaight
2009-07-13, 12:23 PM
Wait, there was a prequel trilogy? And what is force unleashed? I can't say I'm aware of the existence of either of these things.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 12:29 PM
The Force Unleashed is a computer game, and novel, outlining the early years of the Rebellion- the point when it stopped being lots of insurgent groups, and started being one big movement.

Its so-so at best, though some readers like it more than others.

AstralFire
2009-07-13, 12:30 PM
I've always had conflicted views about the clone wars. Who should i say is the good guys and the bad guys

Neither. Separatists weren't as noble as the Jedi, obviously, but they had some legitimate complaints.

Also, the prequel trilogy's underrated. The OT was not exactly amazing and consistently high quality with regards to writing, except for ESB, which still has its weaker moments. I've always enjoyed Star Wars for the concept of the setting, and the visceral enjoyment of the visuals. Not to mention, Lucas came up with some pretty good ideas in both, even if the writing isn't always consistent.


The Force Unleashed is a computer game, and novel, outlining the early years of the Rebellion- the point when it stopped being lots of insurgent groups, and started being one big movement.

Its so-so at best, though some readers like it more than others.

Knaight was being silly.

Ichneumon
2009-07-13, 12:33 PM
So why are that green sage little man who's name I really should remember and Anakin helped by the clones fighting droids in the arena during Attack of the clones?:smallconfused:

AstralFire
2009-07-13, 12:34 PM
The Jedi were on the Republic/Empire's side up until it became the Empire.

Froogleyboy
2009-07-13, 12:35 PM
So. . . which side should the PC's be on?

kamikasei
2009-07-13, 12:38 PM
Whichever? It's up to them, and you, depending on what you want in the game. Who are the PCs? What are their motivations, goals and methods? They may be affiliated with either side, or neither.

(Not intending to be rude, but why are you running a game set in this period if you don't know the era yourself?)

Ichneumon
2009-07-13, 12:38 PM
But who were the Jedi fighting against untill they weren't on the Empire's side anymore? I thought the started the rebellion/rebbels?

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 12:41 PM
Nope- they fought against a rebellion, were massacred almost to the last man at the end of the war when the clones were ordered to kill them, and by the time of the Rebellion in the origin trilogy, there were few left.

(most of those who survived either went into hiding (Yoda) or tried to fight the empire and got killed)

Knaight
2009-07-13, 12:41 PM
Have them start up as outsiders to the whole thing, perhaps on a planet that didn't get involved just yet, and then get drawn in when someone major defects from one group or the other, and heads to the planet. Next thing they know the planet is a battleground, and everyone on it is getting swept up. They can pick sides, or they can try and remain as outsiders.

If they remain as outsiders make it clear they are putting themselves in the position of the bat in the Aesop's fable where the birds and beasts got into a conflict. That is, afterward nobody wants them in their group and they are stuck on their own.

kamikasei
2009-07-13, 12:42 PM
But who were the Jedi fighting against untill they weren't on the Empire's side anymore? I thought the started the rebellion/rebbels?

No. The Jedi were the peacekeepers of the Republic.

The Separatists broke away from the Republic and built droid armies to fight for them. (The breakaway was engineered by Palpatine - his manipulation amplified legitimate grievances in to war. The Separatist movement was led by Count Dooku, Palpatine's Sith apprentice.)

The clones were the army of the Republic, led by the Jedi in the Clone Wars against the Separatists. Meanwhile Palpatine used the threat of the war to get more and more power vested in him as Supreme Chancellor.

Then, at the point of victory in the war, Palpatine uses the clones (via implanted orders - basically, they had mind control triggers built in) to kill off most of the Jedi, and passes it off as the Jedi having attempted a coup. Thus, the Jedi become hunted criminals as the Republic becomes the Empire.

The Separatists were the "bad guys" during the war, really just pawns, and were defeated and absorbed back into the Empire. The Rebel Alliance in the Original Trilogy was made up of people and systems who resisted Palpatine's power grab.

Note: I don't think the Separatists are ever referred to as "rebels" or "a rebellion" in the prequels. That's probably where a lot of the confusion is coming from, people are throwing around terms associated with a specific faction but using them for their dictionary meanings.

chiasaur11
2009-07-13, 12:44 PM
Don't forget about the adventures of Sev, Boss, Fixer, and Scorch.

Important part of the war. Actually kind of good from all I've heard. Ten bucks on Steam.

Ichneumon
2009-07-13, 12:45 PM
So... Palpapine helped the Separatists so he could take control over the republic and eventually make himself Emperor?

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 12:48 PM
he made use of the seperatists to be the threat, that would persuade the Republic to give him ever greater powers, to fight them, and to fight "subversions" by them. Though it was his apprentice that did the work of leading them.

Ichneumon
2009-07-13, 12:49 PM
he made use of the seperatists to be the threat, that would persuade the Republic to give him ever greater powers, to fight them, and to fight "subversions" by them. Though it was his apprentice that did the work of leading them.

You know, that makes Palpapine a lot more bad ass than I originally thought.

ColdSepp
2009-07-13, 12:50 PM
Be aware that Jedi does not equal force users. There are a lot of other orders that use the Force, detailed in various EU books and SW RPG manuals. In fact, there are quite a few Jedi that went into hiding on Mandalore, along with a lot of clones....

According to Legacy of the Force series, anyway. When Jana Solo trains under Boba Fett, she spars with a few. Worth noting that since the clones and Jedi generals are documented as having children, this means there are Fett descendents that can wield the Force.

How much you like that depends on your view of the authors.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-07-13, 12:50 PM
So. . . which side should the PC's be on?Probably the Republic's, seeing as the Separatists almost exclusively used droid armies. Also, while the Republic was somewhat corrupt, the Separatist movement was quite a bit worse, or so the audience is meant to assume.

Anyway, here's the Clone Wars summarized in two sentences:

PUBLIC PERCEPTION: Galactic corporations band together and rebel against taxes and government intereference.

SECRET MOTIVATION: All a ploy by the Republic's Chancellor to seize absolute power from a fearful public.

The idea behind this was taken somewhat from how the Nazi party militarized and seized absolute power in 1930's Germany with events like the Reichstag Fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire). I'll leave it at that to not risk going too much into real life politics


So why are that green sage little man who's name I really should remember and Anakin helped by the clones fighting droids in the arena during Attack of the clones?:smallconfused:Because the Jedi and the clone army all started off on one side, fighting for the Republic against the Separatists (the ones with the robots). It's not until near the end of Revenge of the Sith that Chancellor-***-Emperor Palpatine orders the clones to betray the Jedi and kill them all where they stand.

*dies of ninja*

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 12:52 PM
Pretty much, yes- managed to rule for 13 years without any of the Jedi guessing he was a Force user, and only when he told all to Anakin, did Anakin tattle to the Jedi council.

the Matthew Stover novelization of Revenge of the Sith is good for a Star Wars novel.

kamikasei
2009-07-13, 12:53 PM
He didn't exactly help the Separatists. I'm not sure how their movement started out, but in all probability it wouldn't even have come to a war without his involvement. Rather, he seemed to help them (from their point of view) while in fact building them up as a puppet threat to justify the militarization and concentration of power of the Republic. Since he led them into a war that ended with them defeated and back under his power, I wouldn't call it "help".

In the first prequel, he's acting as Darth Sidious and egging the Trade Federation on to the invasion of Naboo. They think he's going to manipulate the Senate into letting them get away with it (though they don't know he's really the Senator), he in fact uses the invasion of his homeworld to get a sympathy vote for Chancellor and then discards the Federation (though, granted, he may have been happy to let them keep their gains if Darth Maul hadn't been defeated and Anakin show up to destroy their mothership). Then in the second prequel, his apprentice has become leader of the Separatists - not necessarily with anyone's knowledge as to his loyalty, because he was a politically powerful man in his own right.

Ichneumon
2009-07-13, 12:53 PM
I think I should see the movies again.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-07-13, 12:55 PM
That seems likely.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 12:57 PM
The novels cover the events from Episode 1 to Episode 3 quite well. And some stress that the reason the Trade Federation leaders aren't behind bars as of Episode 2 is that Palpatine manipulated the courts to ensure they were never charged.

chiasaur11
2009-07-13, 12:58 PM
I think I should see the movies again.

I'd call that a bad idea.

Watch the Gendy Tartakovsky cartoon and play Rebublic Commando instead. Clone Wars stuff, but good!

Froogleyboy
2009-07-13, 02:13 PM
Whichever? It's up to them, and you, depending on what you want in the game. Who are the PCs? What are their motivations, goals and methods? They may be affiliated with either side, or neither.

(Not intending to be rude, but why are you running a game set in this period if you don't know the era yourself?)

Well, thats the thing. I usually play in the KOTOR era but I'm starting my own campaign and the Trandoshen soldier says "What era?" and I just blurted out "the clone wars" and I designed my first adventure around the era

Starshade
2009-07-13, 03:02 PM
Froogle: i assume, either you got a player who's seen episode 4-6 and dont want to spoil his childhood experience, or has seen episode 1, and now got nightmares of hissen dissen Jar Jar? :smallamused:

I admit i liked the 3 new ones, not same brilliant story as the old ones, but entertaining. The droids are the most exellent part of episode 1-3 (for gamers at least: at last jedi's can get to pull apart oponents :D ), but the storyline is so simple to get if you've SEEN them, not so if you havent.

If i was do DM for someone who's not seen ep 2-3, id simply move it to either 4-6 or newer era, or back to old republic. I might actually do Starwars rpg with a gamer who refuses to see ep 2-3, so i understand your dilemma.

A suggestion: what about using the old 80's storylines? complete with rebels fighting along with jedi, and obi van against clone troopers and drop the entire ep 1-3?

Alejandro
2009-07-13, 03:20 PM
A green, pidgin speaking alien unwittingly allowed a Sith lord with multiple personality disorder to rise to power, with the assistance of a young Jedi who likes older women and has a serious self worth problem. That's the short version.

COMPNOR version:

The wise and good Chancellor Palpatine was forced to become Emperor in order to protect the galaxy from evil, terrorist Jedi and Rebels who want to hurt the galaxy's people at all times. The Department of Stormtrooper Homeland Security exists to protect innocent citizens from the evil terrorist Jedi and Rebels, and therefore must never be questioned or resisted.

Artanis
2009-07-13, 03:21 PM
The whole thing was a Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) by Sidious/Palpatine. If the Seperatists won, he would rule the galaxy as their leader, Darth Sidious. However, if the Republic won, he would rule the galaxy as their leader, Emperor Palpatine.

chiasaur11
2009-07-13, 03:25 PM
A green, pidgin speaking alien unwittingly allowed a Sith lord with multiple personality disorder to rise to power, with the assistance of a young Jedi who likes older women and has a serious self worth problem. That's the short version.

COMPNOR version:

The wise and good Chancellor Palpatine was forced to become Emperor in order to protect the galaxy from evil, terrorist Jedi and Rebels who want to hurt the galaxy's people at all times. The Department of Stormtrooper Homeland Security exists to protect innocent citizens from the evil terrorist Jedi and Rebels, and therefore must never be questioned or resisted.

You know, that brings to mind the weirdest thing about the clone wars.

Jedi, in everything else, are A-1 badasses. See: Clone Wars cartoon. But in Eps 2 and 3, they're pansies.

Storm Troopers: Grunts. Cannon fodder. Worthless in a real fight most of the time. And yet, Clone Troopers? Pure death on a stick.

Just an odd dichotomy.

FoE
2009-07-13, 03:31 PM
So. . . which side should the PC's be on?

The Republic. At the time, they were "technically" the good guys; the Separatists were led by a well-known traitor to the Jedi Council (Count Dooku) and a bunch of complete d**ks (General Grievous, for example). The galaxy wouldn't have been any better off under Separatist rule than it was under the Empire.

Alejandro
2009-07-13, 03:44 PM
You know, that brings to mind the weirdest thing about the clone wars.

Jedi, in everything else, are A-1 badasses. See: Clone Wars cartoon. But in Eps 2 and 3, they're pansies.

Storm Troopers: Grunts. Cannon fodder. Worthless in a real fight most of the time. And yet, Clone Troopers? Pure death on a stick.

Just an odd dichotomy.

The reason for this is, George Lucas's work on the prequels pretty much sucked. For some reason, Jedi suddenly and collectively got stupid and weak for no reason. The Clone Wars cartoon shorts that Genndy did were much better, and I would have wanted to see entire film length versions of those.

The best explanation I can think of is, stormtroopers are the low-bid versions of clone troopers and thus are less effective.

kamikasei
2009-07-13, 03:53 PM
The best explanation I can think of is, stormtroopers are the low-bid versions of clone troopers and thus are less effective.

Or that stormtroopers are recruited like a regular army, the clones having been a way to get a huge army more or less instantly and it being cheaper to funnel the poor off the streets and into the line of fire than to keep decanting expensive top-of-the-line mercs bred to order.

Superglucose
2009-07-13, 03:53 PM
Clone War explanation:

Darth Sidius wanted to be emperor of the Universe and destroy the Jedi, so he incited a rebellion. This rebellion (which is not the rebel alliance) used droids as soldiers. In retaliation, Darth Sidius (posing as Chancellor Palpatine, head of state for the Republic), ordered the construction of an army of clones. Using these clones, he lured all of the jedi into a trap, killing the vast majority of them and then dismantled the rebellion from the inside. He then used his (personal, because the clone troopers were so genetically programmed) control over the military to stage a coup which was (aside from the dying Jedi) bloodless.

At this point he became Emperor Palpatine, and the Rebel Alliance was started.

EDIT: As for Stormtroopers: all clone troopers are now storm troopers, but not all storm troopers were clone troopers. Stormtrooper ranks are filled up with recruits from across the galaxy, so picked because, well, the Kamino cloners rebelled and the cloning facilities had to be shut down (destroyed?) That last bit is detailed in Battlefront 2, which is canon afaik.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 03:56 PM
Wasn't genetic control- was training. The Orders are contingency plans, for eliminating suddenly materalized threats.

One of the Orders is to remove the Chancellor if he is proven to have committed treason- too bad the Jedi didn't think of that one.

Also, the Kamino cloners weren't the only ones, Arkania, and Khomm, are cloners- not sure how much of a role they played.

"Spaarti clones" are mentioned in the Thrawn trilogy, and the Star Wars Roleplaying game- and some of the Clone Wars short stories- grown much faster, but prone to madness.

kamikasei
2009-07-13, 04:13 PM
"Spaarti clones" are mentioned in the Thrawn trilogy, and the Star Wars Roleplaying game- and some of the Clone Wars short stories- grown much faster, but prone to madness.

It's worse because it's presumably too old to be intentional.

Alejandro
2009-07-13, 04:14 PM
Perhaps there was some giant galactic act of Force karma. Jedi are suddenly stupid, so clone troopers are smart. Now, Jedi (what's left anyway) are not stupid, so stormtroopers are.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 04:20 PM
Definitely too old.

Example of clone grown much too fast- the mad Jedi Master Joruus C'Baoth.

I'm still hoping Timothy Zahn will write a book covering what happens between Outboard Flight (where the real C'Boath dies) and Heir to the Empire (where the clone re-emerges)

ColdSepp
2009-07-13, 04:25 PM
Definitely too old.

Example of clone grown much too fast- the mad Jedi Master Joruus C'Baoth.

I'm still hoping Timothy Zahn will write a book covering what happens between Outboard Flight (where the real C'Boath dies) and Heir to the Empire (where the clone re-emerges)

Well, Heir to the Empire mentions Palaptine had a Dark Jedi guarding his vaults, and that C'baoth killed him. Luke speculates that the Dark Jedi and C'baoths aura nullified each other, thus hiding him. He also points out how close Yodas home was to the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah.

However, I find it really weird that we went from Clone Armies (there where reinforcements made using Sparta Cylinders, which put down a rebellion by the original cloners) to Thrawn getting a hold of working Sparta Cylinders to be 'shocking' in Dark Force Rising.

But, another Zahn novel about Thrawn would be most excellent, I agree.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 04:33 PM
The speculations were based on the assumption C'Baoth was a Light side Jedi (when they were on Jomark). Once Luke knew he was a Dark Side user, they stopped being so relevant.

As for clone wars- there are a lot of EU novels (and comics) Some good, some less so.

ColdSepp
2009-07-13, 04:40 PM
The speculations were based on the assumption C'Baoth was a Light side Jedi (when they were on Jomark). Once Luke knew he was a Dark Side user, they stopped being so relevant.

As for clone wars- there are a lot of EU novels (and comics) Some good, some less so.

For C'baoth, maybe. Not for Yoda, or the other Force users that survived. Worth mentioning that the Empire had only been around for 19 years (From the end of Episode 3 tot he start of Episode 4)... which makes some things really confusing.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 04:42 PM
C'baoth is fine if both grown fast and aging fast (would account for being old 30 odd years after being cloned.

But yes, several of the dates in Thrawn trilogy got retconned later- the devastation of Honoghr, for example, from "44 imperial years before" to a lot less.

Simply hiding out on the Outer Rim seemed to work for Ben.

ColdSepp
2009-07-13, 04:45 PM
Simply hiding out on the Outer Rim seemed to work for Ben.

Yeah, they never really explained that, did they? How Vader would not have hunted him down, especially after what happened in Episode 3. You'd think that would be the one jedi Vader hated the most.

AstralFire
2009-07-13, 04:53 PM
The best explanation I can think of is, stormtroopers are the low-bid versions of clone troopers and thus are less effective.

Jedi aren't collectively all worth a hundred men in combat. Fully realized Luke Skywalker, Mace Windu, the Emperor, Yoda, Dooku, Obi-Wan Kenobi, the great swordsmasters of the Council, they are anomalies, not the rule. Meanwhile, these were entire armies of special forces troopers, with no concept of individuality or any good above that of the collective.


Yeah, they never really explained that, did they? How Vader would not have hunted him down, especially after what happened in Episode 3. You'd think that would be the one jedi Vader hated the most.

Obi-Wan did little to be active, embodied the Soresu philosophy of waiting and being subtle, and was on a planet that did nothing but send Skywalker into fits of rage and sorrow and self-denial, that he never wanted to visit again.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 04:54 PM
In Rise of Darth Vader, it explains Vader has a heavy aversion to places of strong emotional content for him- Tatooine, Naboo, the old Jedi Temple.

Still, in the comics, at any suggestion of Kenobi's appearance (they turn out to be other Jedi trying to lead him into traps) he's off and hunting.

ColdSepp
2009-07-13, 05:15 PM
Jedi aren't collectively all worth a hundred men in combat. Fully realized Luke Skywalker, Mace Windu, the Emperor, Yoda, Dooku, Obi-Wan Kenobi, the great swordsmasters of the Council, they are anomalies, not the rule. Meanwhile, these were entire armies of special forces troopers, with no concept of individuality or any good above that of the collective.


As well, it is stated that later clones did not use the Fett template, and were not as well trained. Sparta cylinders where not as refined as Kaomin (sp) cloning methods, and their secrets where lost when they rebelled (except the few that escaped, see Legacy of the Force series)


@ Hamish Rise of Darth Vader is sadly one of the books I don't own. Thanks for the information.

Yakk
2009-07-13, 06:09 PM
I may get pilloried for this, but I'd throw out EU and the Prequels, and instead make a Clone Wars that deserves the name.

The Clone Wars resulted from the development of nearly perfect Cloning technology. You could Clone both the knowledge and the body of an individual in a matter of months. Depending on the effort and cost of the clone, the clone would be more or less perfect. Lower quality clones degraded quite quickly.

The first impact of this technology was economic. Experts would clone themselves and mass produce goods all by themselves. Cloning of employees was engaged in without permission -- laws where passed restricting it, but slave farms of clones grew in numbers.

These clones where also used for violent reasons. You could train someone to being a competent and fanatical soldier, then mass clone them, and you'd have entire units who know that 'one of them' would live to reap the rewards of battle.

As clones of clones degraded faster than clones of originals, fighting broke out over high value prototype individuals.

Cloning, conditioning, then replacing individuals was a crime that grew rampant. Leaders of entire worlds would be replaced with more 'pliant' individuals.

The Republic attempted to reign in the worst abuses, but civil society started to break down.

Then someone developed a test that could distinguish clones from non-clones.

By this point, entire governments had been suborned by clones, and their puppet masters did not want to be revealed. Some societies decided to ban all clones, and engaged in a war of elimination within their own ranks. The technology to detect clones got cheaper and more reliable -- quickly you became able to detect clones without physically interacting with them.

Open interstellar war broke out between those in favour of clone technology, and those who wanted to destroy it. The Republic was torn asunder.

The Jedis had been engaged in a private war long before open war broke out. When you clone a Jedi, the force-growing process drove the clone mad. And what worse, it could be used to drive the original Jedi crazy, or otherwise manipulate him. And in the meantime, the Jedi clone could cause huge amounts of harm, or economic benefit to those that had an enslaved Jedi.

So the Jedi joined the anti-clone forces.

The Clone Wars took decades to complete. Over this time, entire planets where blasted to rubble, civilisations collapsed, and the Republic as they knew it became a shadow of its former self.

The anti-clone forces developed Droids to do the jobs that slave-clones used to do -- the dirty jobs that people didn't want to.

The Jedi? One by one they fell. At first they thought it was the inevitable result of war -- but eventually they found out that someone was hunting them and causing them to die. In the dreams of Jedi stalked a black-cloaked figure. Darth Vadar -- the Sith where back and wiping out the Jedi at a rate faster than the War was.

In the chaos of the war, the Jedi who figured it out fled and hid. But one by one they where hunted down. They fragmented their telepathic bonds, and shut down all communication. And still they fell.

By the time the Clone Wars where over, only a handful of Jedi remained. Darth Vadar had hunted down and killed every remaining Jedi master (except, of course, for 2).

Palatine had lead the anti-Clone forces to victory. Cloning was banned and punishable by death. Being a Clone was grounds for summary execution. The Stormtroopers of the Republic had freed the galaxy from the horrors of the Clone armies.

Stormtroopers where placed all over the Republic in order to track down and kill any remaining sympathisers. Societies found to be harbouring Clones where gathered up and sent to reeducation camps.

Not all approved. Many had thought that the Republic would move back to the more free version after the end of the war -- but Palatine continued to tighten his fist.

A rebellion against Palatine formed. Planets started slipping through the grip of the Republic, and where savagely reconquered. This beat the flame of rebellion higher.

---

And that is the Clone Wars that I imagined. A galaxy-wide fight of clone against original, destructive and bloody, and it shattered both the Jedi order and the Old Republic. The organisation that won the war was a mere shadow of the pre-war society.

And one in which Vader personally hunted down and killed the remaining Jedi.

hamishspence
2009-07-14, 01:22 AM
Even in the EU- he does hunt down many Jedi after the war- Order 66 got most of them, but there were still dozens left.

Eorran
2009-07-14, 10:32 AM
Yakk:
Your version is awesome. Thank you.
I've always wished the prequel movies would have used the hints Timothy Zahn put down in his books, instead of the crap that came out.

Simplified Clone War explanation, provided by Dark Helmet (Spaceballs):

And now, Lone Star, you see that evil will always triumph, because Good is Dumb.

Artanis
2009-07-14, 10:40 AM
I often wish that anybody had used Zahn's hints. It's like all of the authors completely forgot the perfect love interest he had set up until he had to write a couple more books to beat them over the head with it.

ColdSepp
2009-07-14, 11:19 AM
I so agree. The Thrawn Trilogy remains the best, even after all these years. The X Wing Series was quite good, to.

tribble
2009-07-14, 11:36 AM
I command you to turn this into a fully-fledged saga, with pictures.:smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo
2009-07-14, 12:07 PM
Darth Vadar -- the Sith where back and wiping out the Jedi at a rate faster than the War was.
...
By the time the Clone Wars where over, only a handful of Jedi remained. Darth Vadar had hunted down and killed every remaining Jedi master (except, of course, for 2).
...
And one in which Vader personally hunted down and killed the remaining Jedi.

Good sir, who's this Vadar you talk off, and what relation has he with Vader?:smallbiggrin:

Anyway, in your version what hapened to the mighty droid armies? Why did the anti clone forces sudenly started using

Well, nice version tough, altough the whole mass produced biological army vs mass produced mechanical army war seems to be a little too extrem for me.

If it was I in charge I would use both!:smalltongue:

Clementx
2009-07-14, 12:13 PM
Awesomeness that saved my childhood.
That is a thousand times better than any crap produced by Lucas after RotJ, or most of the EU which dwindled over time to nothing. The problem with making tons of movies and novels, there are too many exceptions, hidden histories, over-played aging characters, and general soap-opera crap.

Simple, short, sensible, and flavorful. Perfect for a game setting in the period. Fill in the details as you like.

AstralFire
2009-07-14, 12:32 PM
Ah yes. Thrawn. Wonderful writing.

Time to break into the Museum of Art and become the world's greatest general ever.

Seriously? It wasn't bad, and I kinda like Yakk's version on it's own merits, but people really blow Zahn way out of proportion - and there's something to be said for originality. Ethics in cloning in Sci-Fi isn't anything new. There's plenty of room for a GM to expand on the ethics issues on the subject without going whole hog. And I have a major, major issue with cloning that replicates memories, for the simple fact that it makes no sense.

I'm perfectly fine with Lucas' plots; they just needed someone other than Lucas directing them and writing the dialogue. You can add depth to SW without making it Star Trek with flashy swords, and bear in mind I like Trek.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-14, 12:44 PM
Seriously? It wasn't bad, and I kinda like Yakk's version on it's own merits, but people really blow Zahn way out of proportion

Thrawn was the first Empire villain (and is really the only one aside from Paelleon) who seemed to have any ideas of his own and his enemies' capabilities, didn't make stupid mistakes (*cough*unshielded exhaust port*cough*) and was defeated by treason rather than incompetence (Palpatine doesn't count; he was both betrayed and incompetent in the last battle). That deserves quite a bit of praise in my book.


And I have a major, major issue with cloning that replicates memories, for the simple fact that it makes no sense.

If you can duplicate someone from the cellular level, and memories are inherent in the structure of one's brain, then you can duplicate memories. Alternatively, you can clone someone as a tabula rasa and then copy the memories over. Really, it's not all that implausible.

hamishspence
2009-07-14, 12:48 PM
I think it was a case of- "record persons's brain template, download into clones" So, before the "imprinting process" is done, the clones don't have memories.

AstralFire
2009-07-14, 12:56 PM
The more you go into detail using real world terminology about fantasy science, the worse it usually gets. Making a complete cellular replication, to me, says you're pretty close to the oddly abused replicators in Star Trek. And moreover, as I said, making that the entirety of the Clone Wars feels so... retreaded, to me. It should definitely be an explored parameter, but I don't need a Hugo award winning sci-fi short dominating my laser sword and space religion world.

As for Thrawn - like I said, he wasn't bad. But all of Zahn's characters I don't think really came into their own until after Zahn was done writing them in a series which seemed focused on constant one-upmanship of the original plot and cast like he had something to prove. And that was kind of late for Thrawn, being dead and all.

ColdSepp
2009-07-14, 01:00 PM
In the original Thrawn Trilogy, the clones learned by flash learning (never detailed). It was mentioned that they were picking the best of the best for the cloning, making it very likely that there are some just 'gifted'. Which, really, is a very common concept in Star Wars. Of course, C'baoth had memories, but whether they where the originals or his own is never made clear.

In the Hand of Thrawn, they state how good a clone would be depends on how much is innate ability and how much of it is learned.

Survivors Quests hints it was innate, rather then learned, in the case of Thrawn... if it was his clone, which is very strongly implied.
Regarding Zhan.... he made the Empire believable. Before him, it was all faceless goons in armor, he gave them depth and some degree of sympathy. No one is saying its the pinical of fiction, but it is of Star Wars fiction. IMO.

The later X Wing series manage this as well, with a few Imperial Troops, notable the ones that assist the republic against Zinj (sp?)

AstralFire
2009-07-14, 01:07 PM
Yes, Zahn gave them a face; I rather liked his bit with the renegade stormtrooper squad, for example. In my opinion though, the best character he came up with was Pellaeon, who you'll note was the Imperial everyman (as everyman as an admiral gets) in the Thrawn trilogy - not focused with upstaging some canon counterpart.

Yakk
2009-07-14, 02:21 PM
The memory thing could be hand-waved as using force-like "magic" -- you fast-grow the body, then do some correspondence "the force permeates everything" mojo to steal memories. Or just do a memory imprint.

All of that came from my mishearing the name of Old Ben as "O-B 1" way back -- that the 1 referred to "iteration 1" -- an original.

I had these images of cloned Jedi being used to fight cloned Jedi (and original Jedi being massively outnumbered by cloned versions), body-snatcher plots to replace generals on the other side, and galaxy-wide chaos and war.

Needless to say, I was disappointed by episodes 1 through 3.

AstralFire
2009-07-14, 04:15 PM
When you make lots of guesses and predictions, you are more likely to predict wrongly and be dismayed than you are to win a local small cash lotto prize. I try not to engage in it for a reason - and frequently I've found that "I could write better than this" often is not.

Eorran
2009-07-14, 04:44 PM
Yes, Zahn gave them a face; I rather liked his bit with the renegade stormtrooper squad, for example. In my opinion though, the best character he came up with was Pellaeon, who you'll note was the Imperial everyman (as everyman as an admiral gets) in the Thrawn trilogy - not focused with upstaging some canon counterpart.

I'm not sure I understand you here - are you comparing Thrawn to Vader or the Emperor? (Or Piett, I suppose).

I think it makes a lot of sense that neither Palpatine nor Vader were military geniuses. Palpatine is a politician, and great at manipulation, but he's not a general or admiral (grand or otherwise). Plus, the guy who's willing to build a second Death Star isn't the guy who likes finesse. He likes big hammers.

Vader I see similarly. He was never much of a "team player", even in Episode 3. Anakin/Vader was always an impatient character, and with the resources at his disposal, was perfectly content to sacrifice whatever he needed to accomplish his goals. I think it's a Sith thing.

You could also argue that Thrawn had an easier time of it - he wasn't fighting a guerrila war, but a conventional one against a similarly-equipped enemy.

Piett and Pelleaon seem to be cut from the same cloth, more or less - one just had a better boss to work for.

I can respect not liking all of Zahn's stuff though. Just please don't tell me you like Kevin J. Anderson's Star Wars novels better. Or worse yet, Dark Empire. :smalltongue: