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Choco
2009-07-13, 12:17 AM
So I got this one major NPC the players just encountered, but unfortunately I still can't decide on a proper alignment for her...

While she never attacks without provocation, occasionally help strangers in need, doesn't do harm to good people/creatures, and puts herself in danger to help her friends (basically like the typical good-aligned char), she is extremely sadistic to those that do fight her. Not only does she not spare anyone, but she makes sure their final moments are as miserable as possible.

For example, when the PC's came across her, she was being attacked by bandits who obviously didn't know how powerful she was. She knew their intention was to mug, rape, then kill her. A few stun/paralysis spells later and she castrated all of them, then left them paralyzed while she watched them bleed to death. As much as they deserved what they got, that is DEFINITELY an evil action.

So, what alignment would you guys suggest in this situation?

And, since I know it will inevitably be mentioned, I know this is a situation that probably shows "how broken the alignment system is", but the game is using the alignment system, that cannot be changed, so please don't turn this into a "why the alignment system sucks" thread.

RTGoodman
2009-07-13, 12:36 AM
Neutral.

When in doubt, that's probably your best bet.

Tallis
2009-07-13, 12:43 AM
I agree with neutral. Could be lawful neutral.

Yora
2009-07-13, 12:49 AM
When it's not completely obvious,take Neutral.

Rhawin
2009-07-13, 12:49 AM
The only reason to punish in such a sadistic manner is to enjoy the suffering of others, which is definitely evil. Calculated cruelty is simply Lawful Evil, it doesn't mean that the act is any less evil. One doesn't have to constantly engage in slaughter to be evil.

Yora
2009-07-13, 12:55 AM
And one does not have to never do something evil to be not evil.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 01:02 AM
Lawful Neutral definately
But could fall into Evil very easily.

RTGoodman
2009-07-13, 01:04 AM
The only reason to punish in such a sadistic manner is to enjoy the suffering of others, which is definitely evil. Calculated cruelty is simply Lawful Evil, it doesn't mean that the act is any less evil. One doesn't have to constantly engage in slaughter to be evil.

True, but I still think Neutral is probably a fine fit. Definitely with Evil (and maybe some Lawful) tendencies, though.

Olorin Maia
2009-07-13, 01:14 AM
That is a nasty NPC. Remind me to stay away.

hewhosaysfish
2009-07-13, 07:10 AM
Engaging in brutal torture with no compunctions?

If she was doing it for the sake of deterrence or something then maybe, maybe, you could persuade me she was LN.

But if she's just doing it for her own satisfaction, to revel in her defeat of her enemies then, sorry, but she's LE.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 07:13 AM
Engaging in brutal torture with no compunctions?

If she was doing it for the sake of deterrence or something then maybe, maybe, you could persuade me she was LN.

But if she's just doing it for her own satisfaction, to revel in her defeat of her enemies then, sorry, but she's LE.

As the guidelines for Alignment states, if she does a lot of good things then does some bad things and seems that she cannot make up her mind for an alignment on that axis then she is neutral. Maybe she spends most of her time being good except for those few times when she is really really evil.

Either way she is Lawful Neutral tending Evil.

Steward
2009-07-13, 07:29 AM
I would make her any variety of Neutral, or maybe Evil if your PCs can or will ever have to encounter her dark side.

Killer Angel
2009-07-13, 07:49 AM
As the guidelines for Alignment states, if she does a lot of good things then does some bad things and seems that she cannot make up her mind for an alignment on that axis then she is neutral. Maybe she spends most of her time being good except for those few times when she is really really evil.

Either way she is Lawful Neutral tending Evil.


I could say that, committing such cruel acts of vengeance, should leave her with a sense of remorse.
Even if this retaliatory violence, is done not so often, i'd say that, if she feels no remorse, she's evil. (LE)

In regard to the facts that she helps those in need, and protects the good people, I'm thinking to a figure ala "patriarch Old Testament-Style". Or, if you prefere, ala "medieval priest".
They follow their law, helping poor souls, donating to poors... and crushing with an iron talon those who commits evil deeds.
If you don't want to give too much importance to the lawfulness, you could say LE tending Neutral.

Riffington
2009-07-13, 08:31 AM
How often is this happening?
I mean, most people get attacked by bandits maybe once in their lives?
I ask this because normal people take steps to avoid fights. If she knows she is this brutal, she has a duty to take such steps. She should be avoiding dark alleys, crossing the street/hurrying up when the half-orc starts walking up behind her, backing down in arguments when the other guy starts looking violent, etc. If despite all these good precautions, she is attacked, she's probably neutral*.

But if she is sort of looking forward to doing this again, walks around at night looking like she's defenseless (knowing she may be attacked and sort of hoping she might be), or otherwise doing things that will get her into a fight... evil.

You've told us nothing regarding the lawful/chaotic axis, so no judgments there.

*I'm very confused by "While she never attacks without provocation, occasionally help strangers in need, doesn't do harm to good people/creatures, and puts herself in danger to help her friends (basically like the typical good-aligned char)" because that describes the typical neutral-aligned char. Good has to be a little better than that.

Choco
2009-07-13, 10:17 AM
Hmm, yeah I have been leaning towards lawful neutral myself.


In regard to the facts that she helps those in need, and protects the good people, I'm thinking to a figure ala "patriarch Old Testament-Style". Or, if you prefere, ala "medieval priest".
They follow their law, helping poor souls, donating to poors... and crushing with an iron talon those who commits evil deeds.
If you don't want to give too much importance to the lawfulness, you could say LE tending Neutral.

That is actually very close to how I planned her. However, she doesn't help others because it is her duty, her only duty is as the scout/eyes and ears of the deity she serves (who is lawful neutral) and she helps others on her own. She just has zero tolerance for people who make life hell for the good folk trying to go about making a decent living.


Engaging in brutal torture with no compunctions?

If she was doing it for the sake of deterrence or something then maybe, maybe, you could persuade me she was LN.

But if she's just doing it for her own satisfaction, to revel in her defeat of her enemies then, sorry, but she's LE.

She doesn't enjoy watching the suffering of others, if that were the case she would have dominated those bandits and made them castrate themselves :smallamused: She does, however, take satisfaction in knowing that they got some payback for their deeds before they died. In her mind, she is avenging those who were wronged, since the system in place has obviously failed them.


How often is this happening?
I mean, most people get attacked by bandits maybe once in their lives?
I ask this because normal people take steps to avoid fights. If she knows she is this brutal, she has a duty to take such steps. She should be avoiding dark alleys, crossing the street/hurrying up when the half-orc starts walking up behind her, backing down in arguments when the other guy starts looking violent, etc. If despite all these good precautions, she is attacked, she's probably neutral*.

But if she is sort of looking forward to doing this again, walks around at night looking like she's defenseless (knowing she may be attacked and sort of hoping she might be), or otherwise doing things that will get her into a fight... evil.

You've told us nothing regarding the lawful/chaotic axis, so no judgments there.

*I'm very confused by "While she never attacks without provocation, occasionally help strangers in need, doesn't do harm to good people/creatures, and puts herself in danger to help her friends (basically like the typical good-aligned char)" because that describes the typical neutral-aligned char. Good has to be a little better than that.

Well, in medieval times, crimes in general were much more common due to the lack of a police force and the fact that the soldiers employed by the local lord didn't care about anything that didn't directly affect their lord.

She doesn't seek these encounters, but she doesn't try to avoid them when they come her way. The way she sees it, she has the power to put an end to this right then and there, and if she lets them go then she views herself as responsible for all of their future crimes.

For the law/chaos axis, I would say lawful. As I mentioned above she is a scout for her lawful neutral deity, and performs her duties to the letter.

Come to think of it, you are right about the description there, that does fit neutral much better.


That is a nasty NPC. Remind me to stay away.

Not surprisingly, the PC's had the same reaction :smallamused: They were so scared/confused by what they saw her do that they just hid and watched till she was done and they felt that she had "calmed down" enough so that it was safe to talk to her. They may have just walked the other way if not for the fact that they needed to talk to her.

Killer Angel
2009-07-13, 11:03 AM
That is actually very close to how I planned her. However, she doesn't help others because it is her duty, her only duty is as the scout/eyes and ears of the deity she serves (who is lawful neutral) and she helps others on her own. She just has zero tolerance for people who make life hell for the good folk trying to go about making a decent living.


Then I agree with the lawful neutral, maybe with some tendencies toward evil.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 11:47 AM
Fits quite neatly into Scourge Maiden from Shining South- sadistic to enemies- kind hearted to others.

This PRC is LN, LE, or NE only.

Depending on how Lawful this character is, could be LN.

(CG's sometimes have a "revenge-centric" mindset- the Avenger in Dragon 310 fits quite well. However, most vengeful but not seriously malevolent characters tend to be Lawful- vindictiveness is commonly associated with Lawful alignments, according to Exemplars of Evil)

Choco
2009-07-13, 12:04 PM
Fits quite neatly into Scourge Maiden from Shining South- sadistic to enemies- kind hearted to others.

This PRC is LN, LE, or NE only.

Depending on how Lawful this character is, could be LN.

ooooo, I'm gonna have to check that out for further fluff, thanks!

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 12:11 PM
well, kind hearted if you run LN as mostly kind, cruel only to enemies.

If you think of Neutral as a mix of Good and Evil behaviour, but not behaving Evil often enough to qualify for an Evil alignment, then Neutral rather than Good or Evil, does work.

(The book also has monsters and spells that can be used anywhere, though most of it is Faerun geography)

Blue Ghost
2009-07-13, 12:16 PM
Lawful neutral is my bet as well, considering what you told about her beliefs and value system.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-07-13, 12:45 PM
Look! Actual sources!

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
. . .
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
Emphasis mine.

Someone who degrades the people she is fighting for the lulz is obviously non-Good; the fact that she helps out friends on occasion still puts her in the Neutral category. Depending on the degree of degradation, she's either Neutral or Evil - though for someone who tortures for the lulz, I'd put her in Evil immediately; particularly in light of the example given.

You didn't mention anything about her Law/Chaos aspects so unless any of these apply to her

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.I'd put her at Neutral Evil.

EDIT: :smallsigh: that's what I get for skimming a thread.

Considering the reasons that she debases life, I'm shifting my analysis to Lawful Evil. Remember that Neutral people are still squeamish about killing folks in cold blood - and killing someone after you have incapacitated them is certainly cold blood.

Jergmo
2009-07-13, 06:37 PM
I'd say True Neutral leaning towards Evil.

SoD
2009-07-15, 07:44 PM
I also have introduced a new NPC whose alignment is under debate; a human who earns a living by "hiring out guards, some of the best guards you can get, they won't fall asleep, they won't be easily tricked, you can't knock them unconcious, or drug them, or bribe them or poison them. They won't complain about the rain, nor will they rust."

So far I'm thinking LN. However...these guards of his; he raises the dead. Turns dead stuff into undead stuff, and gets it to guard stuff, for a price.

He doesn't think what he's doing is wrong, and dislikes being refured to as evil, purely because he raises the dead. He doesn't get his 'minions' to harm anyone, unless it's through someone trying to get what they're guarding.

LN? LE? LN with E tendancies? What are our thoughts, playgrounders in the playground?

The Dark Fiddler
2009-07-15, 07:57 PM
I also have introduced a new NPC whose alignment is under debate; a human who earns a living by "hiring out guards, some of the best guards you can get, they won't fall asleep, they won't be easily tricked, you can't knock them unconcious, or drug them, or bribe them or poison them. They won't complain about the rain, nor will they rust."

So far I'm thinking LN. However...these guards of his; he raises the dead. Turns dead stuff into undead stuff, and gets it to guard stuff, for a price.

He doesn't think what he's doing is wrong, and dislikes being refured to as evil, purely because he raises the dead. He doesn't get his 'minions' to harm anyone, unless it's through someone trying to get what they're guarding.

LN? LE? LN with E tendancies? What are our thoughts, playgrounders in the playground?

If I remember correctly (IIRC), Necromancy, RAW at least, is evil.

I think that's bull, but that's MY OPINION. I wouldn't give him evil just because he deals with the dead.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-15, 08:03 PM
The OP's NPC sounds very much like (A particularly badass) Lawful Neutral. Mostly because of the motivations behind the acts. Depending on what they were, it could have veered more Lawful Evil, or even Chaotic Neutral.

Sounds like a very interesting npc, in my opinion. I like the grim, remorseless (but essentially empathic and well-meaning, perhaps kind of emotionally scarred) nature she seems to have.

Your necromancer is definately neutral, (mostly because there is no suggestion of real, Good aligned style altruism or going-out-of-his-way). He's all about being a legitimate business, from the sounds of it, so Lawful also sounds like a good fit.

I'm sure some might argue he must be Evil on account of using 'Evil' spells, but really, that's not an argument that ever really washed with me and my personal taste.

The thing is, you being the DM, it comes down with how your universe functions. Does his utilising the Negative Energy Plane increase the amount of (apparently innately evil) negative energy in the world, and thus make him a foul and sinister person automatically, or not? Otherwise, it's just a matter of people's perception and attitude towards Necromancy and the Undead, which is purely subjective and not really a matter for Detect Evil. (Though it may still get him linched.)

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-15, 08:09 PM
Sound true neutral to me. The 'tries to help people no matter what' is good, clearly, but the inflicting of quite a lot of pain for no real reason besides revenge is pretty evil. So, yeah, I'd go with TN.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-07-15, 09:51 PM
I also have introduced a new NPC whose alignment is under debate; a human who earns a living by "hiring out guards, some of the best guards you can get, they won't fall asleep, they won't be easily tricked, you can't knock them unconcious, or drug them, or bribe them or poison them. They won't complain about the rain, nor will they rust."

So far I'm thinking LN. However...these guards of his; he raises the dead. Turns dead stuff into undead stuff, and gets it to guard stuff, for a price.

He doesn't think what he's doing is wrong, and dislikes being refured to as evil, purely because he raises the dead. He doesn't get his 'minions' to harm anyone, unless it's through someone trying to get what they're guarding.

LN? LE? LN with E tendancies? What are our thoughts, playgrounders in the playground?
If he is doing the necromancy, then he is Evil. However, if he is merely business partners with a necromancer he could be Neutral.

As has been noted, creating undead is an Always Evil act (crazy splatbooks excepted) - so if it is something you do without qualm, you must be Evil. It's like stabbing orphans for fun - only an Evil person would do that. That said, handling the business end of an Evil enterprise may be seem as a non-Evil occupation - YMMV.

Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic - look at my previous post, and see which qualities best describe him.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-15, 10:00 PM
Someone who is stunned/paralyzed is no longer a threat. Stopping at that point to torture them, and let them bleed to death is evil plain and simple. The NPC is not even remotely close to Neutral. That's so far in the deep end of the evil pool, light isn't even getting through the water anymore.

Holocron Coder
2009-07-15, 10:20 PM
I concur with the majority of the replies.

OP's char - LN, it doesn't sound like she's torturing so much as executing sentence (a rather painful one, but one nonetheless).

other post's char - N / LN, I never agreed with creating undead from readily available corpses (that you didn't slaughter yourself, or did so in battle) as being immediately evil. Now, if you start creating undead of holy paladins... yeah, then maybe you're going a bit far.

Of course, by RAW, both are horribly evil.

Yahzi
2009-07-15, 10:23 PM
So I got this one major NPC the players just encountered, but unfortunately I still can't decide on a proper alignment for her....
Chaotic Evil.

She is only fair to people she wants to be fair to. That is, she chooses who to treat as equals, and who to treat as objects, based mostly on her own whim.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-15, 10:27 PM
Second NPC. Aside from the very silly/arbitrary [Evil] descriptor on Animation he isn't doing anything wrong. Assuming you're willing to throw out that bit, he's Nuetral with the information described. Potentially even good, if he does other things not described here that benefit that living in a general sense.

Choco
2009-07-15, 11:35 PM
Second NPC. Aside from the very silly/arbitrary [Evil] descriptor on Animation he isn't doing anything wrong. Assuming you're willing to throw out that bit, he's Nuetral with the information described. Potentially even good, if he does other things not described here that benefit that living in a general sense.

Agreed, he is only evil because using negative energy is by default evil in D&D. Easy to fix by just ignoring that. That being said, he is not necessarily not doing anything wrong, because a lot of people would object to having their corpses raised as undead. That is just a nitpick though.

Either way, it is great seeing all the different opinions people have in regards to my NPC. Neutral or Evil or somewhere in between were always the only 2 options, and it's great seeing the reasoning behind pushing it one way or another. I however fall into the "well if they deserved it then I guess it can be overlooked.. just don't do it often..." category, as opposed to "it is never OK" when it comes to committing evil actions, so will probably go with Lawful Neutral with evil tendencies.


The OP's NPC sounds very much like (A particularly badass) Lawful Neutral. Mostly because of the motivations behind the acts. Depending on what they were, it could have veered more Lawful Evil, or even Chaotic Neutral.

Sounds like a very interesting npc, in my opinion. I like the grim, remorseless (but essentially empathic and well-meaning, perhaps kind of emotionally scarred) nature she seems to have.

Thanks! She is one of the NPC's I actually tried to make interesting/unique. You got the mostly evil guys that are very polite and even try to kill as painlessly as possible, I decided to go the other way and create a mostly good NPC that gets VERY vicious when she gets started. And of course it is dumb to create interesting traits like that and not explain them, so yeah, her life wasn't always sunshine and roses. I'll have to see if the PC's even care about uncovering her past, right now all they care about is that she is less scary than her sister (one of the villains) and they need her help to deal with said sister, and after that I wouldn't be surprised if they just tried to get as far away as possible...

Mr.Moron
2009-07-15, 11:56 PM
. I however fall into the "well if they deserved it then I guess it can be overlooked.. just don't do it often..." category


No one can "Deserve" torture. That's just.. disturbing.

hamishspence
2009-07-16, 11:50 AM
Terry Goodkind didn't seem to think so, in Sword of Truth series.

And while David Gemmell did seem to think so, torture was portrayed as the sort of thing a Neutral, really angry, person might do (and feel very ashamed of later)

And in The Crystal Shard Bruenor Battlehammer (supposedly LG) gets rather enthusiastic about the prospect of torturing a captured orc for information (Drizzt suggests using Regis's charm item instead.

Choco
2009-07-16, 11:54 AM
Seems to me he was talking about his own personal ideals there, not necessarily what the various D&D universes have to say on the matter. Gray area is always a pain to deal with like that... To each his own I guess.

hamishspence
2009-07-16, 12:01 PM
If he is doing the necromancy, then he is Evil. However, if he is merely business partners with a necromancer he could be Neutral.

As has been noted, creating undead is an Always Evil act (crazy splatbooks excepted) - so if it is something you do without qualm, you must be Evil. It's like stabbing orphans for fun - only an Evil person would do that. That said, handling the business end of an Evil enterprise may be seem as a non-Evil occupation - YMMV.

Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic - look at my previous post, and see which qualities best describe him.

Dread necromancer class in Heroes of Horror "this class requires that you commit evil acts, however some characters can balance evil acts with good acts and good intentions, and remain soldifly Neutral"
Alignment: Any non-good.

So non-evil necromancers are possible, just rare.

Choco
2009-07-16, 12:07 PM
...however some characters can balance evil acts with good acts and good intentions, and remain solidly Neutral...

Man, that actually helps me out quite a bit right there. I always though how it was funny that a mostly evil character that occasionally commits good deeds (on his own, not cause he has to) is still evil, but a mostly good character that occasionally commits evil deeds is either neutral or evil by most people's standards. Guess it makes sense though, kinda like trust, takes a lifetime to earn it but just 1 moment to lose it. Good characters are always held to higher standards and are often expected to be saints.

However, now that an official WotC book has that one line, I can finally justify, by the books, that my NPC is lawful neutral due to balancing out good and evil acts, regardless of the personal beliefs of myself, my players, the people on this forum, etc. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2009-07-16, 12:15 PM
I'd say keep them to a minimum, and it should be the case that person's general methods aren't evil- evil acts are the exception, rather than the rule.

"balance" in this case is minor evil acts, infrequently, irregularly, major Good ones.

Champions of Ruin "Even good characters can be driven to them from time to time. However, the repeated, systematic use of many of these is the mark of an evil character"

Casting an evil spell, such as Animate dead, is very low on the list of Corrupt (Evil) acts in Fiendish Codex 2- not as bad as robbing the needy, or perverting the course of justice for personal gain, etc.

Revenge (as per the first post) is "not necessarily evil" in BoVD" "Not a good act" in BoED" and "Can be evil, but isn't always" in Champions of Valor.

Exemplars of Evil has a LN character whose revenge mission really ought to have them on the brink of evil- they are hunting down and butchering everyone who destroyed their village, and they have even killed innocent people who spotted them doing it and might have told others. this example was in the "sympathetic villain" section.

so, where the vengeful LN character crosses the line into Evil, can sometimes be drawn very, very generously, in some sources.

I think the point of the Dread Necromancer was that necromancy is generally, though evil, more excusable than many other forms of evil, hence doable by Neutral guys.

Warlocks, especially Fiendish Codex 2 Hellfire warlocks, can also be like that "Evil powers used in a good cause"

Choco
2009-07-16, 12:21 PM
Ah yes, more perfect examples!

Yeah, this particular NPC doesn't do what I described in the first post all that often, and only as a response to herself being attacked. How vicious she gets depends on what mood she's in at the moment. I specifically mentioned that incident because that is what the PC's saw. Normally she just kills her attackers, though she never shows any mercy and makes sure they are all "dealt with". I had to have her doing something extreme during her first encounter with the PC's to get across the point that when you challenge her, one side WILL be completely annihilated, cause I got some Chaotic Stupid PC's that would have tried their luck otherwise.

hamishspence
2009-07-16, 12:37 PM
Mercy is always a tricky question. Showing mercy is by default Good in BoED, but lack of mercy isn't necessarily guarantee that character is non-good- PHB

"Alhandra fights evil without mercy and protects the innocent without hesitation"

in Players Handbook 2, it raises various themes for paladins, including:

"Loyalty to true friends, vengeance to betrayers and foes"
You know that strength flows from solidarity, and solidarity only comes when all trust each other. Defeating the evils that plague the world is possible if all are loyal. Those who betray loyalty must be dealt with swiftly.

"Mercy to those that deserve mercy"
Sometimes even the righteous can stray from the true path, and thus you must occasionally show mercy. However, mercy for unrepentant evil-doers is tantamount to doing evil yourself.

and even:

"There is no mercy, there is only judgement"
Leniency and compassion are words used to describe weak dealings toward those who have been judged and found wanting. This doesn't mean that you seek to kill all those who, in your judgement, are weak and faithless, but it does mean that such creatures do not deserve your respect.

So, there is a lot of flexibility in the alignment system for the less merciful kind of non-evil character.

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-16, 10:34 PM
The Good/Evil axis is described as covering how a character relates to others. The main problem is that no one relates to every sentient being in the world in anywhere close to the same way, and no real guidelines are given for how to take this into account. This leaves most people ambiguously aligned.

It's also unclear whether Good and Evil are only meant to cover how one relates to "innocent life", and if so what constitutes "innocence".

A lack of mercy doesn't have to mean active cruelty. Still, Choco's NPC strikes me as fairly Neutral. She could be Lawful or Chaotic depending on her attitude towards authority and tradition.

If creating undead is Evil, it must hurt or coerce someone (perhaps by binding undead souls). On the other hand, if it doesn't hurt or coerce anyone, then it isn't Evil. That's assuming that we take "Evil" to mean "hurting, oppressing, and killing others" or something close to it, rather than "on some splatbook's Official List of Evil acts."