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Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 01:19 AM
I just read the Sovereign Speaker Prestige Class in Faiths of Eberron.
That... is.... insane..

Does anyone else see how totally spastically breakable that is?

I am sure this is old news to die-hard Eberron players.. but still. :P

Archivist + Spontaneous Casting Feat + Sovereign Speaker is just the first thing that popped into my head. :P

Innis Cabal
2009-07-13, 01:25 AM
Have you seen the Druid PrC in there yet?

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 01:26 AM
I just finished reading it..

I want to cry.

They took power creep to a whole new level with that book. :P

*cries*
*bans from all of his games he DMs*

Kyeudo
2009-07-13, 01:27 AM
Ah, the fun of Planar Shepherd. Full casting plus full animal companion plus full wildshaping plus ability to wildshape into a genie/pit fiend and grant my self wishes.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 01:30 AM
Planar hopping to boot..

It is .. stupid.. beyond stupid.

And the Heroic Channeling Feat.. it is more breakable than the prestige classes.. @_@

Who wrote this book.. I want to stab them in the face..

EDIT: Oh Jennifer Wilkes.. Now I see why it is so unbalanced.. :P

RTGoodman
2009-07-13, 01:32 AM
I'm not sure Sovereign Speaker is as breakable as you think. The Domain Spontaneity feat makes you pick ONE domain (and since it's not specified, you can't take it more than once), and you still have to spend a Turn Undead attempt each time you spontaneously cast from that domain. Now, with the UA spontaneous domain variant, yeah, it's a little worse, but there're even built-in limitations to what domains you can pick. IIRC, and I don't have FoE, you can't have more than a couple domains from each member of the Host. Sure, you can do some pretty optimal things with it, but I don't think it's inherently broken.

The Planar Shepherd now... that's a whole different case.


EDIT: I don't think Heroic Channeling is quite that bad either. You can at most have, what, two or three action points at a time? And, based on the text I saw, at least, you can spend it instead of ONE Turn/Rebuke attempt, meaning it's not even that great for DMM. Basically, it nets you MAYBE a couple extra uses of Divine Shield or something. You're better off, from an optimization standpoint, grabbing either Extra Turning or, if you're feelin' cheesy, a handful of Nightsticks.

kpenguin
2009-07-13, 01:37 AM
Sovereign Speaker takes away some of your caster level progression, which is very important in picking your PrCs.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 01:43 AM
I'm not sure Sovereign Speaker is as breakable as you think. The Domain Spontaneity feat makes you pick ONE domain (and since it's not specified, you can't take it more than once), and you still have to spend a Turn Undead attempt each time you spontaneously cast from that domain. Now, with the UA spontaneous domain variant, yeah, it's a little worse, but there're even built-in limitations to what domains you can pick. IIRC, and I don't have FoE, you can't have more than a couple domains from each member of the Host. Sure, you can do some pretty optimal things with it, but I don't think it's inherently broken.
No you take the Spontaneous Casting Feat from the Campaign setting book instead. Lets you burn spells at a faster rate.
But by level 15 you can have an Archivist with 10 Domains, 3 bonus Domain slots per level who just memorises all of his spells with Metamagic applied and swaps them for any other spells he needs at a whim.
Being an Archivist he can potentially spontaneously cast any divine spell in the game a whim and has some very cool an more than optimal domain powers to go with it.
I workd out a druid/SS/PS just a moment ago in rough form that takes the game, bends it over his knee and snaps it clear in half.



The Planar Shepherd now... that's a whole different case.
Yeah that class is so bad it isn't funny.



EDIT: I don't think Heroic Channeling is quite that bad either. You can at most have, what, two or three action points at a time? And, based on the text I saw, at least, you can spend it instead of ONE Turn/Rebuke attempt, meaning it's not even that great for DMM. Basically, it nets you MAYBE a couple extra uses of Divine Shield or something. You're better off, from an optimization standpoint, grabbing either Extra Turning or, if you're feelin' cheesy, a handful of Nightsticks.

I made a basic level 6 character te other day with 40 action points using only a few minor odds and ends.
There is a prestige class that lets you double your actions points.

Now.. with 40 free activations of any divine feat that uses turning attempts.
You just scan some books and think on it.


Sovereign Speaker takes away some of your caster level progression, which is very important in picking your PrCs.

I'd only ever take the first 5 levels of it.
so you only lose 1 progression level.

kpenguin
2009-07-13, 02:04 AM
Spontaneous casting doesn't work that way. If you're a cleric, you can only have domain spells in domain slots. If you're a noncleric with domains, you can only prepare one domain spell per spell level.

The archivist only gets to prepare more than one domain spell per spell level because he adds those spells to his spell list from scrolls. Spells learned from domains work differently.

Using spontaneous casting doesn't magically allow you to cast more than one domain spell per spell level and even if it did, you're still spending 2 action points to do it every time you swap your spells, a fair price for versatility, I'd say.

Furthermore, as stated previous, archivists can already learn every single domain spell that is available to Sovereign Speaker through scrolls. This appears, to me, more a problem with archivists than the Sovereign Speaker. A sovereign speaker is limited to the domains spells of the Sovereign Host and to only two per deity. An archivist, theoretically, is limited only by his pursestrings to buy spells. I wouldn't find it worth it to lose a caster level to gain those free spells when I can buy them at my local scroll shoppe.

RTGoodman
2009-07-13, 02:11 AM
[Whole bunch o' stuff about Archivists and action points and so on...]

Well, for the most part though, I think the brokenness isn't from Sovereign Speaker, but from the other things you've mentioned/used in your builds.

Archivist, even if it doesn't work the way you say, is still considered one of the most broken classes in 3.x. Planar Shepherd doesn't help. Getting 40 action points at 6th level via some combination of feats/PrCs/whatever is more broken than being being able to spend a single one instead of a single turn undead attempt.

kpenguin
2009-07-13, 02:13 AM
You know what, just post this "uber-build" that an Archivist-SS would have so that we may see the brokenness in all its glory rather in little pieces.

SilverSheriff
2009-07-13, 04:16 AM
Isn't it funny that I though I'd open a link to a 4th Edition thread.:smallamused:

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 05:26 AM
Well, for the most part though, I think the brokenness isn't from Sovereign Speaker, but from the other things you've mentioned/used in your builds.

Archivist, even if it doesn't work the way you say, is still considered one of the most broken classes in 3.x. Planar Shepherd doesn't help. Getting 40 action points at 6th level via some combination of feats/PrCs/whatever is more broken than being being able to spend a single one instead of a single turn undead attempt.

Hmm your right. I guess I just took a whole bunch of nearly broken stuff, added it to an OP Prestige class and totally broke it.

But SS is still a stupidly OP class.

That Planar BS is perhaps the most abusable Prestige class I have seen in the game so far though.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-13, 06:20 AM
That Planar BS is perhaps the most abusable Prestige class I have seen in the game so far though.

Just wait until you realize that when you activate that planar bubble power you can select a plane with the fast time trait. Who doesn't love giving themselves and ally allies within 30ft 10 rounds of actions while the opponent goes once? Get a lot of spellcasters and unload.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 06:24 AM
Just wait until you realize that when you activate that planar bubble power you can select a plane with the fast time trait. Who doesn't love giving themselves and ally allies within 30ft 10 rounds of actions while the opponent goes once? Get a lot of spellcasters and unload.

I realised that trick before I clicked with the summoning Efreeti thing. lol.

Stupid.. totally stupid. lol.

Fawsto
2009-07-13, 06:39 AM
OMG!!!! What were WotC thinking?

Hummm... Isnt it funny how many threads start due to this same fundamental question?

MickJay
2009-07-13, 06:52 AM
Which makes you wonder why people don't just play the real D&D (2nd and earlier editions) more? :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-13, 07:03 AM
Which makes you wonder why people don't just play the real D&D (2nd and earlier editions) more? :smallbiggrin:

Or simply play games better than D&D.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 07:07 AM
I just like the sheer volume and versatility of D&D 3.5
2nd ed is still my favourite D&D and I am also quite fond of RIFTS, V:tM, M:tA and W:tA.

But for fantasy world building D&d can be pertty cool. As a DM I try and go through as many books as I can to find new ways of doing things and often find myself with a really long ban list in games.

But really most things I have come across only truly break when you mix half a dozen things from different splat books and incompatible campaign settings.

The only true exception to that so far has been Planar Sheperd.

Cyclocone
2009-07-13, 07:34 AM
But really most things I have come across only truly break when you mix half a dozen things from different splat books and incompatible campaign settings.

The only true exception to that so far has been Planar Sheperd.

Yeah PS is hillariously broken for a PrC that doesn't loose anything and only require a single feat to enter. Like someone said: "It makes one wonder why it's not called Druids of the Coast."

But IMO PS isn't the only inherently broken PrC out there. Beholder Mage, Dweomerkeeper and Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer fit that bill as well.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 07:45 AM
Yeah PS is hillariously broken for a PrC that doesn't loose anything and only require a single feat to enter. Like someone said: "It makes one wonder why it's not called Druids of the Coast."

Druids on crack. :P



But IMO PS isn't the only inherently broken PrC out there. Beholder Mage, Dweomerkeeper and Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer fit that bill as well.

Tainted Scholar is a bit of a catch though. Unless you are undead or some sort of demon/devil your eventually going to taint so hard you become an NPC. In fact it happens very very fast. As your taint grows with most of the spells you cast (and your power grows) your ability to take any other class becomes less and less. You taint faster and faster until.. *bampf* your a tainted raver.

Beholder mage is kind of stupid but no where in the league of PS. I don't actually know Dweomerkeeper. Which book is it in?

Cyclocone
2009-07-13, 08:13 AM
Druids on crack. :P



Tainted Scholar is a bit of a catch though. Unless you are undead or some sort of demon/devil your eventually going to taint so hard you become an NPC. In fact it happens very very fast. As your taint grows with most of the spells you cast (and your power grows) your ability to take any other class becomes less and less. You taint faster and faster until.. *bampf* your a tainted raver.

Yeah, i imagine that playing one would get to be a bit of a hassle pretty quickly. But nothing says love like a DC 100 Finger of Death in the DMPC's face.:smalltongue:


Beholder mage is kind of stupid but no where in the league of PS.

Well maybe not quite, but 10 spells/round and spontaneously casting all spells? that would make a repressed wizard cream his pants. (Hope you can forgive the mental image.)


I don't actually know Dweomerkeeper. Which book is it in?

Well, there's one in Faiths and Pantheons, but it's fairly complicated to qualify for. This lists the requirements. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/prestige2.pl?Dweomerkeeper)
The Dweomercheater people usually think about when they say the name is from this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) webenhancement (it's written by Skip and Noonan, and it shows!:smallbiggrin:).
I guess there is a reason why you don't see DK mentioned as much as, say, Incantatrix. It's just too horribly broken for normal play.:smalleek:

Anyway, i still think those 3 belong in the "too cheesy to use, ever"-category, along with Planar Shepard.:smallsmile:

grautry
2009-07-13, 08:18 AM
Beholder mage is kind of stupid but no where in the league of PS. I don't actually know Dweomerkeeper. Which book is it in?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a Here.

I don't think I have to explain what possibilities does casting spells as Su abilities give you? Cloak of Mysteries is also pure gold and Mantle of Spells is the cherry on top of uber abilities.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 08:34 AM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a Here.

I don't think I have to explain what possibilities does casting spells as Su abilities give you? Cloak of Mysteries is also pure gold and Mantle of Spells is the cherry on top of uber abilities.

I'm not quite sure if you linked to the right class.
Both of you linked to the Nightcloak and both gave the same link.
Neither of those abilities you named are part of the class and the only Su ability it has is Shadow Talk. Hardly a broken class.

Are you both sure that is the correct link?

mikej
2009-07-13, 08:38 AM
I'm not quite sure if you linked to the right class.
Both of you linked to the Nightcloak and both gave the same link.
Neither of those abilities you named are part of the class and the only Su ability it has is Shadow Talk. Hardly a broken class.

Are you both sure that is the correct link?

you need to download the Complete Divine web enhancement. Dweomerkeeper is pretty broken good but I'am still a huge fan of the Planar Shepherd :smallbiggrin:

Edit: The title and the reaction towards the Planar Shepherd PrC reminded me of this.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1899/imagetgy.jpg

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-13, 09:18 AM
Which makes you wonder why people don't just play the real D&D (2nd and earlier editions) more? :smallbiggrin:

I believe you mean the real AD&D. I like 1e and 2e, but I couldn't do 0e/BECMI if my life depended on it.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 10:19 AM
Edit: The title and the reaction towards the Planar Shepherd PrC reminded me of this.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1899/imagetgy.jpg

Pretty much. rofl.
That was me for about 2 minutes after reading it. lol.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-13, 10:56 AM
But by level 15 you can have an Archivist with 10 Domains, 3 bonus Domain slots per level who just memorises all of his spells with Metamagic applied and swaps them for any other spells he needs at a whim.
Being an Archivist he can potentially spontaneously cast any divine spell in the game a whim and has some very cool an more than optimal domain powers to go with it.
I workd out a druid/SS/PS just a moment ago in rough form that takes the game, bends it over his knee and snaps it clear in half.



I think you are overlooking the fact that Archivists have access to all of the Domains anyway, just not the granted powers. Frankly, not all of the granted powers are very good.


Edit: And Planar Shepard was broken long before you saw it.

grautry
2009-07-13, 04:32 PM
EDIT: Oh Jennifer Wilkes.. Now I see why it is so unbalanced.. :P

Since I don't really pay much attention to authors, can someone enlighten me as to who that person is?

Gnomo
2009-07-13, 04:41 PM
Hummm... Isnt it funny how many threads start due to this same fundamental question?
The sad thing is that we all know the answer: Sell more books.

And nothing sells more books than overpowered material.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-13, 04:52 PM
I just read the Sovereign Speaker Prestige Class in Faiths of Eberron.
That... is.... insane..

Does anyone else see how totally spastically breakable that is?

I am sure this is old news to die-hard Eberron players.. but still. :P

Archivist + Spontaneous Casting Feat + Sovereign Speaker is just the first thing that popped into my head. :P

Pfft.
Beguiler/Mindbender/Rainbow Servant/Sovereign Speaker.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-13, 07:57 PM
Pfft.
Beguiler/Mindbender/Rainbow Servant/Sovereign Speaker.

Shiny.. @_@

And I realise that the abuse of PS was found probably the first day the book was published. But still. I only just finally got the Eberron books. :P

Swordguy
2009-07-13, 08:50 PM
Or simply play games better than D&D.

That'd be awesome. Trouble is, what tends to happen is you've got 2 guys who like gritty fantasy, a guy who likes sci-fi, a guy who likes anime/exalted, a guy who likes horror, and a guy who likes superhero games.

But EVERYONE'S "second" choice is invariably D&D. Thusly, it's the only thing everybody can agree on. More's the pity.

ChaosDefender24
2009-07-13, 09:00 PM
Pfft.
Beguiler/Mindbender/Rainbow Servant/Sovereign Speaker.

rainbow servant is 6/10 casting, says Brazil

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-13, 09:09 PM
rainbow servant is 6/10 casting, says Brazil

If you go with the text, it's 10/10; if you go with the table, it's 6/10. The general errata rule is text over table, and it's probable that translators looked at the table and not the text.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-13, 09:12 PM
rainbow servant is 6/10 casting, says Brazil

Versatile Spellcaster.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-13, 10:56 PM
rainbow servant is 6/10 casting, says BrazilAre you sure? I was under the impression that the Portugese versions were all 10/10.

Roland St. Jude
2009-07-13, 11:29 PM
I believe you mean the real AD&D. I like 1e and 2e, but I couldn't do 0e/BECMI if my life depended on it.

I did a BECMI game a couple years ago. It was lots of fun. We didn't get past E, but it certainly brought back how minimalist the rules were and how much the players (including DM) had to interpolate.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-14, 07:44 AM
but it certainly brought back how minimalist the rules were and how much the players (including DM) had to interpolate.

That's part of the problem for me--I'm very much a DM of the "stat things ahead of time, ad lib the story" variety, so having to ad hoc a majority of the rules with my current group (who enjoy messing with the rules and story as much as possible) would most likely leave me quivering in the corner looking like I'd gazed into the Far Realm. :smallwink:

quick_comment
2009-07-14, 07:59 AM
Is planar shepherd really all that broken if you dont allow things like fast time planes?

I mean yeah, its strictly an improvement over the already T1 druid, but is it still game breakingly powerful?

Gaiyamato
2009-07-14, 08:29 AM
Is planar shepherd really all that broken if you dont allow things like fast time planes?

I mean yeah, its strictly an improvement over the already T1 druid, but is it still game breakingly powerful?

Well if you make a limited list of what he could summon and heavily restrict what he can do with his little demi plane thing then it just becomes very very highly powered and not so broken. Still is a little silly though. :P

grautry
2009-07-14, 08:32 AM
Is planar shepherd really all that broken if you dont allow things like fast time planes?

I mean yeah, its strictly an improvement over the already T1 druid, but is it still game breakingly powerful?

Well, besides the Time Trait, you can also bring magic traits. Allowing for say, free Extend on various spells or if you find a more interesting plane, more game breaking free metamagic as well. Other examples of use:

"Pick a plane with no gravity, you can now fly. Pick a fire plane, everything in the area takes 3d10 fire damage per round. Pick a plane of cold, the temperature instantly drops to 0 degrees and every living thing dies from the "flash frost.""

But besides that it's not really all that much more powerful than a long-duration Shapechange with more limited forms.

hamlet
2009-07-14, 08:56 AM
I did a BECMI game a couple years ago. It was lots of fun. We didn't get past E, but it certainly brought back how minimalist the rules were and how much the players (including DM) had to interpolate.

And that's why we like it!:smalltongue:

Tokiko Mima
2009-07-14, 11:26 AM
These classes aren't overpowered. They give up a familiar, for example. (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-868384.html) How could you call something overpowered if it doesn't have a familiar? :smalltongue::smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-14, 11:57 AM
Is planar shepherd really all that broken if you dont allow things like fast time planes?

I mean yeah, its strictly an improvement over the already T1 druid, but is it still game breakingly powerful?It's an improvement to the Druid. That alone is ban-worthy. Beyond that, the amount of cheese possible is just scary. No fast-time planes? Okay, I snag one that has Efreeti for +5 Inherrant to all stats on our team. Nlo Efreeti? Okay, I snag one with free metamagic on all spells I cast. No free meta? Okay... see the problem?

grautry
2009-07-14, 12:39 PM
It's an improvement to the Druid. That alone is ban-worthy. Beyond that, the amount of cheese possible is just scary. No fast-time planes? Okay, I snag one that has Efreeti for +5 Inherrant to all stats on our team. Nlo Efreeti? Okay, I snag one with free metamagic on all spells I cast. No free meta? Okay... see the problem?

Sure, but the wildshape with Su and SLA abilities is really no different than Shapechange. PoA(or hell, even Polymorph if you're an outsider) with Assume Supernatural ability can do the Efreeti thing a couple levels faster even. Admittedly, you get the outsider wildshape a couple of levels faster than you would get Shapechange.

And the magic traits in Eberron planes aren't THAT hot. I mean, sure, they're great but not game-breakingly overpowered. Why? Because they're usually tied to very specific spells: like spells with lawful/fire/good/evil descriptor or ones that use a specific energy type. That's a fairly limited group of spells.

The versatile ones are: Lammania(all druid spells Extended) and Thelanis(arcane Empowered and Extended). That's a *great* ability but not one that breaks the game.

Without the Time Trait manipulation it's still an insanely good class(because it's a druid++) but it's not really something that completely and utterly breaks the game. At least, not any more than Shapechange does.

Since no one answered I'll ask again: just what is Jennifer Wilkes infamous for?

AstralFire
2009-07-14, 12:42 PM
These classes aren't overpowered. They give up a familiar, for example. (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-868384.html) How could you call something overpowered if it doesn't have a familiar? :smalltongue::smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Hah! I wonder, is it still trolling if the fact that you're being facetious is plain as day and people still argue with you?

Myrmex
2009-07-14, 12:49 PM
I think Wilkes was on of the authors for Savage Species.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-14, 12:55 PM
Is planar shepherd really all that broken if you dont allow things like fast time planes?

I mean yeah, its strictly an improvement over the already T1 druid, but is it still game breakingly powerful?

You are missing the whole Wish/use of Wild Shape problem. Or free Cleric casting by WSing into a Celestial that has it. This was the original reason PS gets auto-banned. Then CO discovered the Planar Traits included Time. Even if the DM limits you from the Far Plane, that still leaves Xorait or any of the other planes in Eberron.

And there's nothing stopping a Planar Shepard from devoting themselves to a demiplane created by a fellow party member. He may lose out on Wild Shape options, but this opens up the Time trait again.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-14, 08:24 PM
Since no one answered I'll ask again: just what is Jennifer Wilkes infamous for?

Nothing in particular.
I've just noticed that any book that contains seriously OP or Broken stuff seems to have her name on it. :P
There are a couple of WotC writers who it seems always write over the top stuff.
Yeah she is one of the Primary authors for Savage Species (co-Authored), She worked on some sections of Sandstorm, Primary author for Faiths of Eberron.

She made some web enhancements for 3.0 which were so broken that they were remade by other WotC writers and completely removed when 3.5 came out. lol.

She is also one of the primary writers for a lot of the monsters in 4th ed.
She wrote Worlds and Monsters.

tiercel
2009-07-14, 10:13 PM
...and this is why, ideally, you play D&D with a DM who knows how to say "no."

I mean, seriously, like you can't break Core. It's just annoying when add-on books hand out free brokenation like Halloween candy, and the DM has to scour any book to use in a campaign with a Banhammer +5. Or, alternatively, you know, players could even turn up their noses at truly excessive cheese. You know. In theory.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 10:15 PM
...and this is why, ideally, you play D&D with a DM who knows how to say "no."
Because of Jennifer Wilkes? :smallconfused:


I mean, seriously, like you can't break Core.
Shapechange. Fullstop.


It's just annoying when add-on books hand out free brokenation like Halloween candy
Like Druids, Clerics, Wizards, Contingency, Polymorph Any Object, Solid Fog, Astral Projection...

kpenguin
2009-07-14, 10:25 PM
Pfft.
Beguiler/Mindbender/Rainbow Servant/Sovereign Speaker.

How would a Beguiler/Mindbender/Rainbow Servant even get into Sovereign Speaker? You need the ability to cast Divine spells and none of those classes grant divine spells.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 10:26 PM
Hm. Well, Rainbow Servant gives you access to all cleric spells... might not count them as divine though.

Good point.

tiercel
2009-07-14, 10:34 PM
Because of Jennifer Wilkes? :smallconfused:

:P Because of free mindless splatbook powerups, heh. Core has its own (potential) problems enough.



Shapechange. Fullstop.

Well, honestly, I'd probably say the entire polymorph series, since even the lower-level versions are, if nothing else, unclear about exactly how much you can do with them (how many times has polymorph been changed, errated, FAQd, Rules of the Game'd, etc) -- shapechange and polymorph any object are just *worse*).



Like Druids, Clerics, Wizards, Contingency, Polymorph Any Object, Solid Fog, Astral Projection...

Well, I'd draw a distinction between "broken" and "strong". Polymorph any object will break your game. You can have a druid in your party without other players tearing out their hair and crying out "oh gods why didn't I play a druid." Ditto on vanilla clerics without Divine Metamagic, Divine X, Divine Y feats and an entire portable log cabin made entirely out of nightsticks.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 10:37 PM
Well, I'd draw a distinction between "broken" and "strong". Polymorph any object will break your game. You can have a druid in your party without other players tearing out their hair and crying out "oh gods why didn't I play a druid."
Not if your party is mostly monks/fighters... at least one of which is broken on a totally different level.

But seeing as how Druids get Shapechange, which is broken...

I mean, you don't have to use Shapechange, but by that logic, PAO isn't broken because you don't have to use it to break the game...

Steward
2009-07-14, 10:52 PM
Core Fighters are broken too now? Really? I've always thought of Fighters as strong at first but pretty dull. And Monks are basically Fighters with lame superpowers and no armor.




I mean, you don't have to use Shapechange, but by that logic, PAO isn't broken because you don't have to use it to break the game..



Well, honestly, I'd probably say the entire polymorph series, since even the lower-level versions are, if nothing else, unclear about exactly how much you can do with them (how many times has polymorph been changed, errated, FAQd, Rules of the Game'd, etc) -- shapechange and polymorph any object are just *worse*).

If you hate something that much, why let your players have it? I mean, unless you're planning to set them against the dreaded Dragon Who Is Immune To Everything Except Polymorph Any Object, they probably don't need it to play in your game.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 10:56 PM
Core Fighters are broken too now? Really? I've always thought of Fighters as strong at first but pretty dull. And Monks are basically Fighters with lame superpowers and no armor.
Note the sarcasm: "On a totally different level."



If you hate something that much, why let your players have it? I mean, unless you're planning to set them against the dreaded Dragon Who Is Immune To Everything Except Polymorph Any Object, they probably don't need it to play in your game.
The point was that you don't have to play the game in a way that makes other classes feel obsolete, but that doesn't mean that the class you're using is balanced.

tiercel
2009-07-14, 11:04 PM
Not if your party is mostly monks/fighters... at least one of which is broken on a totally different level.

But seeing as how Druids get Shapechange, which is broken...

I mean, you don't have to use Shapechange, but by that logic, PAO isn't broken because you don't have to use it to break the game...

If druids are broken because of shapechange, then it isn't the druid class that is broken, it is the spell shapechange.

Now you can make other arguments about druids, of course, but my point is that if (1) your campaign never reaches 17th level (as most don't) or (2) if you modify or ban shapechange, then your problem with druid has dissipated. That doesn't mean there is no problem, it just means correctly identifying where the problem lies.

It's a general point to me too.. you hear a lot of talk about how "full spellcasting always wins" and at mid-high to high levels this pretty much does tend to be true, and can be a real significant problem to deal with... but at the same time, that's not the whole game. For a lot of campaigns, it's not much or any of the game. I haven't been in many games above 12th level or so. That's not to say nothing is wrong with the game because "you just have to quit at level 11/12/13/whatever", I'm just saying that you have to keep the problems of the game in perspective.

Just because primary casters may become increasingly overpowered *at high levels* doesn't mean they are always overpowered for the entire game. It means that if you are going to DM a high level game, you have to realize the game is different -- and more potentially problematic -- than if you are DMing a "level 4-7" game. Ditto for running a game which uses 4328974837291 supplement books versus one that uses few or none.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 11:10 PM
If druids are broken because of shapechange, then it isn't the druid class that is broken, it is the spell shapechange.
Well no, keep reading.


It's a general point to me too.. you hear a lot of talk about how "full spellcasting always wins" and at mid-high to high levels this pretty much does tend to be true, and can be a real significant problem to deal with... but at the same time, that's not the whole game.
The power disparity starts showing up around level 6 and becomes an issue around level 8 when Solid Fog is shutting down melee.


For a lot of campaigns, it's not much or any of the game. I haven't been in many games above 12th level or so. That's not to say nothing is wrong with the game because "you just have to quit at level 11/12/13/whatever", I'm just saying that you have to keep the problems of the game in perspective.


The basic design philosophy of 3.X was nominally that you'd be good at one of three things - sneaking, fighting, and casting - and poor at two others, unless you're a bard.

Druids are good at fighting and casting. They are very good at fighting and casting.

At 12th level, the druid is a bear, with a bear companion, and casts 6th level spells - some (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm) of (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm) which (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/liveoak.htm) are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellstaff.htm) very (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm) good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyVI.htm).

This makes him kinda more powerful than the monk, which to me highlights an issue with the wide disparity of power in core, which leads me to conclude that core is far from balanced.

SurlySeraph
2009-07-14, 11:46 PM
These classes aren't overpowered. They give up a familiar, for example. (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-868384.html) How could you call something overpowered if it doesn't have a familiar? :smalltongue::smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Oh God, not the Lightning Warrior. The first time I read that thread, I had to coin the term "ragegasm" to properly express how it made me feel.

sofawall
2009-07-14, 11:49 PM
I made a basic level 6 character te other day with 40 action points using only a few minor odds and ends.
There is a prestige class that lets you double your actions points.

How? I'm curious.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 11:52 PM
The first time I read that thread, I had to coin the term "ragegasm" to properly express how it made me feel.

Shocked, I suppose?

Zeful
2009-07-14, 11:52 PM
Core Fighters are broken too now? Really? I've always thought of Fighters as strong at first but pretty dull. And Monks are basically Fighters with lame superpowers and no armor. A fighter has no features that properly scale with level, every other class does (some suck but they still scale), have no class features, and don't preform their niche role adequately (if you can figure out what that's even supposed to be). They'd be less unbalanced if they were a 5-10 level NPC class where their lack of anything noteworthy made sense. Fighters have always been broken, just in the opposite way of wizards.

Oslecamo
2009-07-15, 02:22 AM
A fighter has no features that properly scale with level, every other class does (some suck but they still scale), have no class features, and don't preform their niche role adequately (if you can figure out what that's even supposed to be). They'd be less unbalanced if they were a 5-10 level NPC class where their lack of anything noteworthy made sense. Fighters have always been broken, just in the opposite way of wizards.

Drop it. It's not the fighter's fault if you don't know how to play it. It's been shown time and time again the fighter can perfectly hold up his ground on the party.

If you really want specific class features(besides the ones you clearly aren't seeing, and I won't bother to explain for the hundreth time), there's like a bazillion alternative fighter class features out there, all of them oficial from Wotc.

Zeful
2009-07-15, 04:21 AM
Drop it. It's not the fighter's fault if you don't know how to play it. It's been shown time and time again the fighter can perfectly hold up his ground on the party.Way to miss the point. I never said the fighter couldn't hold their own, I simply pointed out that class is simply full of bad design choices, many of which make the Fighter simply a more powerful NPC class. The fighter is actually based on the same design concept as the wizard (every X level(s) select new powers from a limited pool), they just use a very bad mechanic for it, which doesn't scale. The dependence on feats creates an unspoken and explicitly mundane focus that makes no sense in the high-magic, high-fantasy assumed setting, as well as making the competence of the class a rules mastery issue. The fighter has no defined niche, which it's design reflects, as all it's class features are based on player choice rather a uniform concept. This lack of focus and definition falls more in line with the NPC classes rather than a PC class.


If you really want specific class features(besides the ones you clearly aren't seeing, and I won't bother to explain for the hundreth time), there's like a bazillion alternative fighter class features out there, all of them oficial from Wotc.Bonus feats from a very limited list are filler class features. A way to avoid "Dead levels" more than anything. The fact that a fighter can still stay useful at higher levels speaks more of the feats themselves rather than the class that uses them.

Alternate Class Features are a good way to differentiate fighters from different settings, but the amount of them actually prove my point to a large extent. Bonus feats aren't good enough on their own to be a class feature.

Finally, no it's not the Fighter's fault I don't know how to play it. It's Wizard's fault that I have to.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-15, 05:07 AM
Alternate Class Features are a good way to differentiate fighters from different settings, but the amount of them actually prove my point to a large extent. Bonus feats aren't good enough on their own to be a class feature.


Imho, even if I think that fighters could (And should) have like 3 times their bonus feats without being broken and being 10 times more fun, for my tastes they don't lack of class features. I like the concept of a "blank" class you build as you want.

Simply, feats most times scales poorly and so you have to be VEEERY careful in choise, and you have to build the fighter in a way that the feats of the tiers caninteract well. In my gaming experience, anyway, I've the same feel of Olsecamo: if someone can't do a good job with a fighter, is because is not so imaginative, and does not use well the various equipments and tactics.

Not to say that fighter should be done better, your point is still valid. Maybe is that I start to feel the various "X is OP" and "Y suxxs" things a little bit annoying, expecially in a game that is supposed to be balanced by players, and is not a MMORPG like wow or a miniature game like Warhammer, that need more balance than cool ideas.

IMHO, of course.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-15, 05:29 AM
How? I'm curious.

Used two prestige classes that granted extra action points and took every single feat that boosted actions points. lol.
Used Generic PC Version of the Expert class from UA for the Base Class.
The class only had Action points.. :(

And it was level 8 sorry.

But you could reasonably make a build with 10 action points.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 08:01 AM
I've the same feel of Olsecamo: if someone can't do a good job with a fighter, is because is not so imaginative, and does not use well the various equipments and tactics.

That's exactly the problem with the fighter and wizard disparity--you need to know what you're doing as a fighter or you'll screw your character, yet the fighter is supposed to be the beginner class to help people learn how to play! Likewise, the wizard is supposed to be for expert players, yet if you pick your spells based on "Hey, that sounds cool!" you'll be better than average.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-15, 08:25 AM
That's exactly the problem with the fighter and wizard disparity--you need to know what you're doing as a fighter or you'll screw your character, yet the fighter is supposed to be the beginner class to help people learn how to play! Likewise, the wizard is supposed to be for expert players, yet if you pick your spells based on "Hey, that sounds cool!" you'll be better than average.

Well, this can be right but not for wizzie. IMHO, is more the case of Druids and ToB, that are made in a way that you must swear to be bad.

For a lot of players the "cool" spell is the one that makes "boom". Not to take it as a general rule.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-15, 08:30 AM
Used two prestige classes that granted extra action points and took every single feat that boosted actions points. lol.
Used Generic PC Version of the Expert class from UA for the Base Class.
The class only had Action points.. :(

And it was level 8 sorry.

But you could reasonably make a build with 10 action points.

Reason: Generic Classes are broken. Those bonus feats? Allowing them to be any feat in existence makes them a powerhouse in comparison to the original class. If you limit the bonus feats to the feats presented in the sidebar on that page, the Generic Expert and Warrior are somewhat balanced (if a tad underpowered).


The Generic Caster is just plain broken though.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 08:48 AM
Well, this can be right but not for wizzie. IMHO, is more the case of Druids and ToB, that are made in a way that you must swear to be bad.

For a lot of players the "cool" spell is the one that makes "boom". Not to take it as a general rule.

Obviously picking blaster spells isn't the best choice for a caster, but it will make you better than average compared to other classes (rather than other kinds of wizards).